[Sourcecode]

Full out brawling with cops and setting them on fire and whatnot

Is Ukrainian poon not good enough to keep them stable?

[Sourcecode]

here is a live feed.

The square is currently on fire

[WanderingSoul]

Fuck me. They aint fuckin around. They lit those cops up. Possibly the first time I've ever felt somewhat bad for a cop.

[Chaos]

Will be interesting to see what this mess will end up with.
One Ukranian friend of mine went to Kiev today only to participate in the demostrations.
I asked her if she really think it's worth it....
She also said that many of these demostants are just plain hooligans who haven't any political interests. They are there just for the sake of fighting.

One thing that's certain is that Ukraine's economy wont get any stronger when people are fighting on the streets instead of being at work.

[Sourcecode]

I can imagine the most of the damage is caused by random people that just find it funny.
It's like that with most riots...even insurgent wars..people will come far and wide to take shots.

I wonder if the rioting is caused by police agitators.
Its been know that undercover cops will go to stir shit up and put down riots.
But I don't think they would throw fire at people

[jimukr104]

Actually its funny that the west is condemning the cops there. In America folks wouldn't throw Molotov cocktail because the cops would be legally able to respond by shooting dead the protesters who throw them.American cops can open fire when ever they feel threatened about their life, serious injury or possible disfigurement. The Ukrainian cops are being VERY soft if you ask me!In fact i don't even see guns on their belts.
Another case of the "American Empire" saying do as i say, Not as i do". It sickens me. Western Europe supports the protests for Economic benefits to them and America being Western Europe's bitch supports them.


Yes..most of the protesters are from the West of Ukraine.....Most folks in Ukraine's biggest cities are wanting to be closer to Russia. Come to think about it after Kiev the next 4 largest cities are Russain cities(Kharkiv, Dnipro, Odessa, and Donetsk). They are Russian leaning and most folks over 30 think of themselves as Russian regardless if they are ethnic Ukrainians. Its only those born after independence that might think otherwise. The country should just break into 2. The West has the most uneducated folks of Ukraine and lack of resources. They would be poor. Its the Russians that made Ukraine an industrial powerhouse!

[samsamsam]

Well there goes my vacation plans...

[Akula]

(01-22-2014 11:53 AM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

Actually its funny that the west is condemning the cops there. In America folks wouldn't throw Molotov cocktail because the cops would be legally able to respond by shooting dead the protesters who throw them.American cops can open fire when ever they feel threatened about their life, serious injury or possible disfigurement. The Ukrainian cops are being VERY soft if you ask me!

Yes..most of the protesters are from the West of Ukraine.....Most folks in Ukraine's biggest cities are wanting to be closer to Russia. Come to think about it after Kiev the next 4 largest cities are Russain cities(Kharkiv, Dnipro, Odessa, and Donetsk). They are Russian leaning and most folks over 30 think of themselves as Russian regardless if they are ethnic Ukrainians. Its only those born after independence that might think otherwise. The country should just break into 2. The West has the most uneducated folks of Ukraine and lack of resources. They would be poor. Its the Russians that made Ukraine an industrial powerhouse!

Yeah that's pretty much what I've heard/read. Obviously the western press are making this out to be some kind of validation of the EU by saying 'Ukrainians' want to join the EU (and are thus rejecting Putin/Russia). But the reality is probably more like you/we're saying - the Western (ethnic Ukranian) half of the country are increasingly afraid of getting too much closer to Russia and wanted a counterbalance - but it's not working out all that well. Plus, let's be honest, Europe is less able to given them $$s than Russia is actually at this point given all the crap going on in the EU with potential defaults and their issues on the home front. And the "Russian" part of the country could care less and want to maintain close ties with Moscow and keep the gas flowing cheaply.

Everyone's also just sick of the corruption as well - the oligarchs have way more power in Ukraine than in Russia and in a way its almost like crime syndicates run a lot of the businesses and enterprises. But hell they've lived with it for a long time, including all through the Soviet Union days, so I have to think it's so ingrained and people are so used to it that a lot of this stuff is never going to change or the change will be glacial - and everyone knows it more or less. But in any case, all the wealthy Ukrainians/Russians have another passport in case things get too hot....

[jimukr104]

(01-22-2014 12:17 PM)Akula Wrote:  

(01-22-2014 11:53 AM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

Actually its funny that the west is condemning the cops there. In America folks wouldn't throw Molotov cocktail because the cops would be legally able to respond by shooting dead the protesters who throw them.American cops can open fire when ever they feel threatened about their life, serious injury or possible disfigurement. The Ukrainian cops are being VERY soft if you ask me!

Yes..most of the protesters are from the West of Ukraine.....Most folks in Ukraine's biggest cities are wanting to be closer to Russia. Come to think about it after Kiev the next 4 largest cities are Russain cities(Kharkiv, Dnipro, Odessa, and Donetsk). They are Russian leaning and most folks over 30 think of themselves as Russian regardless if they are ethnic Ukrainians. Its only those born after independence that might think otherwise. The country should just break into 2. The West has the most uneducated folks of Ukraine and lack of resources. They would be poor. Its the Russians that made Ukraine an industrial powerhouse!

Yeah that's pretty much what I've heard/read. Obviously the western press are making this out to be some kind of validation of the EU by saying 'Ukrainians' want to join the EU (and are thus rejecting Putin/Russia). But
the reality is probably more like we're saying - the Western (ethnic Ukranian) half of the country are increasingly afraid of getting too much closer to Russia and wanted a counterbalance - but it's not working out all that well and Europe is less able to given them $$s than Russia is actually. And the "Russian" part of the country could care less and want to maintain close ties with Moscow.

Everyone's also just sick of the corruption as well - the oligarchs have way more power in Ukraine than in Russia and in a way its almost like crime syndicates run a lot of the businesses and enterprises. But hell they've lived with it for a long time, including all through the Soviet Union days, so I have to think it's so ingrained and people are so used to it that a lot of this stuff it's never going to change - and everyone knows it more or less.

Yep..funny thing is the EU doesn't want Ukraine..it was just a trade agreement. My wife (father was KGB so she is an occupier lol) says that the protesters are idiots that they want the agreement because:
1. they love travel and think it will be easier for them to travel.
2. imports will be cheaper so they can get Western European goods cheaper(not caring that it will hurt Ukrainian manufacturers).
Not realize that they will have to accept gays, and racial equality something MOST Ukrainians resent.
The Ukrainians always use the famine as an example of Russian cruelty. Well Israel should bomb Western Ukraine then by that logic....Ukrainians murders loads of Jews. It was the Soviets that protected them.

Interestingly the West supports the Oligarchs.... that bitch who was arrested is one of the most corrupt oligarchs ever..she was prime minister too lol.Putin is tough on them. Interestingly there was a survey and most Ukrainians wished Putin was their leader lol.

[Akula]

(01-22-2014 12:07 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  

Well there goes my vacation plans...

yeah, honestly it helped change my travel plans over the past couple of days on my way out of Russia. Looks like Prague...

[Pacesetter20]

Do they not teach "stop, drop and roll" in Ukraine?

[Teedub]

(01-22-2014 11:53 AM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

Yes..most of the protesters are from the West of Ukraine.....Most folks in Ukraine's biggest cities are wanting to be closer to Russia. Come to think about it after Kiev the next 4 largest cities are Russain cities(Kharkiv, Dnipro, Odessa, and Donetsk). They are Russian leaning and most folks over 30 think of themselves as Russian regardless if they are ethnic Ukrainians. Its only those born after independence that might think otherwise. The country should just break into 2. The West has the most uneducated folks of Ukraine and lack of resources. They would be poor. Its the Russians that made Ukraine an industrial powerhouse!

It's not that simple. There are pro-Ukraine/EU groups like Vitali Klitschko's UDAR, there other groups too that have come from the East of Ukraine to fight against corruption, regardless of whether they're closer to Russia or not. There's also far right nationalist groups too. There's been in-fighting also.

Vitali got attacked with fire extinguishers and it wasn't be the cops.

Here's a story about the opposing groups. I read it last night. http://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv/the...35346.html

Quote:

Between slinging cobblestones at the police and avoiding tear gas poisoning, young men polled by the Kyiv Post have said they come from a wide range of localities, including southern and eastern Ukraine, and many of them are Russian speakers.

Quote:

Yarosh, the leader, is a native of Dniprodzerzhynsk in eastern Ukraine, who has been a member of the far-right nationalist movement for 25 years, sounds better prepared for what’s coming.

“I’ve had a confession, I took my communion, so now I am ready to die. I don’t really want to – I am about to have a grandson soon, I don’t want to die – but if I must, I will,” he says.

Quote:

Yarosh says Ukraine has been occupied by criminals and oligarchy, and has to be freed from it. A truly independent, free welfare state has to replace it. “The main thing is to get rid of the regime, and what state to build in its stead people will figure out,” Yarosh says.

I think it would be interesting to go, perhaps not on vacation but as an 'educational' visit so to speak!

It's interesting that we all slam the Euro welfare state, well apart from the healthcare - but these guys sincerely want it. Who am I to judge them. I've never experienced real struggle in my life, hardly anyone on this forum has so perhaps one has to reassess what is important. I'm guessing their idea of a welfare state is more Poland than Sweden so perhaps they're right!

[jimukr104]

(01-22-2014 12:57 PM)Teedub Wrote:  

(01-22-2014 11:53 AM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

Yes..most of the protesters are from the West of Ukraine.....Most folks in Ukraine's biggest cities are wanting to be closer to Russia. Come to think about it after Kiev the next 4 largest cities are Russain cities(Kharkiv, Dnipro, Odessa, and Donetsk). They are Russian leaning and most folks over 30 think of themselves as Russian regardless if they are ethnic Ukrainians. Its only those born after independence that might think otherwise. The country should just break into 2. The West has the most uneducated folks of Ukraine and lack of resources. They would be poor. Its the Russians that made Ukraine an industrial powerhouse!

It's not that simple. There are pro-Ukraine/EU groups like Vitali Klitschko's UDAR, there other groups too that have come from the East of Ukraine to fight against corruption, regardless of whether they're closer to Russia or not. There's also far right nationalist groups too. There's been in-fighting also.

Vitali got attacked with fire extinguishers and it wasn't be the cops.

Here's a story about the opposing groups. I read it last night. http://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv/the...35346.html

Quote:

Between slinging cobblestones at the police and avoiding tear gas poisoning, young men polled by the Kyiv Post have said they come from a wide range of localities, including southern and eastern Ukraine, and many of them are Russian speakers.

Quote:

Yarosh, the leader, is a native of Dniprodzerzhynsk in eastern Ukraine, who has been a member of the far-right nationalist movement for 25 years, sounds better prepared for what’s coming.

“I’ve had a confession, I took my communion, so now I am ready to die. I don’t really want to – I am about to have a grandson soon, I don’t want to die – but if I must, I will,” he says.

Quote:

Yarosh says Ukraine has been occupied by criminals and oligarchy, and has to be freed from it. A truly independent, free welfare state has to replace it. “The main thing is to get rid of the regime, and what state to build in its stead people will figure out,” Yarosh says.

I think it would be interesting to go, perhaps not on vacation but as an 'educational' visit so to speak!

It's interesting that we all slam the Euro welfare state, well apart from the healthcare - but these guys sincerely want it. Who am I to judge them. I've never experienced real struggle in my life, hardly anyone on this forum has so perhaps one has to reassess what is important. I'm guessing their idea of a welfare state is more Poland than Sweden so perhaps they're right!

A lot of them just don't like the President because he is a criminal.
Corruption? You ever hear the saying"you get the gov't you deserve".
The people of Ukraine are inherently CORRUPT by American standards. So it stands to reason that folks up the line will be corrupt as well. The gov't reflects the way to people act.Its a doggy eat world there..they love gangsters and gopniks so no surprise they are being ruled by them. yulia Tymoshenko was one of the most corrupt oligarchs in Ukraine and they want her free ?lol
Of course they want a welfare state.... Ukrainians are NOT very productive people. They don't work very hard. Sure they work long hours but anyone who has experienced there customer service knows better.
Go to a restaurant and half the employees on break. Business closes at lunch time because EVERY worker needs to hang together at same time. Should I continue? Ever go to a restaurant where the waitress basically tells you nothing is available. But she never says WHAT is available?
They want welfare..as in free STUFF! that's why they love immigration to America. They know every scam to get free housing,education,food stamps and welfare!

Old Soviet saying" they pretend to pay us so we pretend to work". New flash:even when paid well they work less!

[jimukr104]

many young guys are coming to start trouble..its like fun for them and there is news that they are even being paid..same as in 2005 election.
[/quote]

[jimukr104]

something is wrong with edit

[rastignac]

Well I guess this is the place where we can talk about what is going on in the center of Kiev. Pretty rocky start, in my opinion.

First of all, I would not necessarily eliminate travel plans. It is easy to avoid the violence at present unless you were dead set on visiting central Kiev. I am going soon. It is certainly reason to think things through to avoid trouble, but there is also an opportunity to learn about what is going on in that country and witness it. Pretty beta not to go.

These events are history and it is being ignored by the American media.

Some statements on this thread deserve comment. Odessa is a Russian speaking city but in the 3 years I have been spending time there I have never, ever heard pro-Russian statements. The pro-Russian sentiment is evident in the far eastern regions like Donetsk. It is not necessarily true of the capital either.

To my experience, Ukrainians admire Putin because he is a strong leader who looks out for his countries national interests. Ukraine's leaders have been weak. They don't want Russian rule. In Lviv, where the right wing nationalists are strong, Russians have been hated for generations.

In Ukraine, institutions are corrupt and do not do what they are supposed to do. People are scrappy and try to survive at any cost. Ukrainian people distrust each other. They distrust the government more.

The government has been paying people to riot and cause trouble the last few nights. Tell me, can that kind of leadership survive? Yanukovich has tanks reportedly coming to break things up tonight.

The far right nationalists from western Ukraine are playing a big role in the protests. But it is not just them at the heart of it, as Russia has been spinning. And they are necessarily part of the story, social fabric there.

Silly to note this, but I have worked with Ukrainians for 5 years and they have been some of the most productive people I have known. I am quite happy with the service I get at restaurants, bars and clubs (Odessa especially), which I will take over my native California any day.

Any way, there is a lot going on minute to minute and the historical and cultural context is rich. It deserves some attention and I know there are a lot of knowledgeable people on the forum.

This live stream broadcast from espreso.tv is a good place to keep up or watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrZcAsPKK74#t=747546

In my opinion, the events are no longer about Europe.

[rastignac]

(01-22-2014 11:53 AM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

Actually its funny that the west is condemning the cops there. In America folks wouldn't throw Molotov cocktail because the cops would be legally able to respond by shooting dead the protesters who throw them.American cops can open fire when ever they feel threatened about their life, serious injury or possible disfigurement. The Ukrainian cops are being VERY soft if you ask me!In fact i don't even see guns on their belts.
Another case of the "American Empire" saying do as i say, Not as i do". It sickens me. Western Europe supports the protests for Economic benefits to them and America being Western Europe's bitch supports them.


Yes..most of the protesters are from the West of Ukraine.....Most folks in Ukraine's biggest cities are wanting to be closer to Russia. Come to think about it after Kiev the next 4 largest cities are Russain cities(Kharkiv, Dnipro, Odessa, and Donetsk). They are Russian leaning and most folks over 30 think of themselves as Russian regardless if they are ethnic Ukrainians. Its only those born after independence that might think otherwise. The country should just break into 2. The West has the most uneducated folks of Ukraine and lack of resources. They would be poor. Its the Russians that made Ukraine an industrial powerhouse!

Lots of generalizations here that sound like they are coming from some lode of Russian folk wisdom about "Little Russia".

I will respond with some of my own.

People over 30 are not the future of Ukraine. In any case, I know many people (Russian speaking) 50-70 who saw themselves as Ukrainian first and Soviet second... and Russian, not at all.

Ukrainians were known on the USSR as hard working and productive in industry and engineering and were exported as labor throughout the country.

[Teedub]

If I was a Ukrainian dude with no chance of a location independent income, I'm not surprised they're asking for a more 'liberal' government. Compared to Western Europe or even Central Europe it seems like a bad place to live. It's only good for us guys because we can spend Western-generated wealth there, but imagine being there and having their standard of living.

Just my take and I'm drunk so it's probably a bit misinformed.

[JJ Roberts]

Surprised that it's just in Kiev and its not spread to other cities in Ukraine.

[rastignac]

(01-22-2014 06:08 PM)Teedub Wrote:  

If I was a Ukrainian dude with no chance of a location independent income, I'm not surprised they're asking for a more 'liberal' government. Compared to Western Europe or even Central Europe it seems like a bad place to live. It's only good for us guys because we can spend Western-generated wealth there, but imagine being there and having their standard of living.

Just my take and I'm drunk so it's probably a bit misinformed.

Exactly, my observation.

As Ukrainian: it is currently a great place to live if you have wealth. Odessa is full of luxury stores and Bentleys, Porsche Cayennes, etc. To acquire wealth you need to have an angle and be a bit connected and corrupt. Straightforward entrepreneurship is difficult. A professional life (like we have in the West with lucrative careers in Law and Medicine) does not really exist.

[rastignac]

(01-22-2014 06:19 PM)JJ Roberts Wrote:  

Surprised that it's just in Kiev and its not spread to other cities in Ukraine.

And just a smallish area in the center of Kiev.

[jimukr104]

"Silly to note this, but I have worked with Ukrainians for 5 years and they have been some of the most productive people I have known. I am quite happy with the service I get at restaurants, bars and clubs (Odessa especially), which I will take over my native California any day"

NO not silly..but MOST of us who have been there find that hard to believe. Unless of course you are only hanging out in establishments that cater to tourists during tourist season.I can make a comedy satire of for SNL based on restaurants I have been to.(my wife is laughing at that customer service statement btw..she is Odessan).

Odessa has always been a Russian cultured city(with an international mix) ....but interestingly Odessan's put politics about Odessa before that of Ukraine! or Russia.



So some gopnik told you that the gov't is paying folks to riot? were you offered money to do so?
I can believe the gov't doing such a thing..but i know for a fact that many are being paid to go cause trouble and protest. I know because my gopnik nephew was offered compensation(including drugs) to go to Kiev and protest.
In 2005 the Western leaders did the same thing..they offered to bus and compensate my mother in law for support. DON'T think both sides aren't being played for here.
"tanks for the memories"........if police can't handle the protesters, makes sense. In America national guard has been bought in to the mix in the past.
They are occupying the main street and attempting to take control of gov't buildings. oh yeah..lets not forget the firebombing and destruction of police /gov't property and vehicles. I don't know how they do things in the nanny state,California, but let me assure you that many police dept's in America would be "hats and bats" by now!
That's the term we use when we gear up to put down the law. I assure you the NYPD(as well as other depts) would be going ape shit right now if our own was getting fire bombed. By law we can open fire at anyone we see throwing an instrument that can do us harm. The public knows this which is why it doesn't happen very often.
I am pretty sure if the protesters were really PEACEFUL and just sat in a park like the wall street protesters did they would have been much less confrontation. But in MOST of these mass protest events regardless of location there are ALWAYS instigators with a chip on the shoulder that causes trouble. We even use to get them during New Years ball drop, I would never bring my family there.But YEAH when you block major streets and try to take over gov't buildings..you are going to be smashed, regardless of country.Burn a few cops.....get lead poisoning, sounds about right to me!
You really think federal swat teams wouldn't converge on protesters who attempt to take gov't buildings in D.C? US Marshals actually had to be called in during the Vietnam protests to bash heads.
That's what pisses me of.....the hypocrisy of the west's views in this.
The president made a decision(which even European sources said was maybe right thing to do at the time) and people think they should protest /stir trouble. World doesn't work that way. Obama makes decisions everyday that everyone doesn't agree with...when we vote we get to kick him out. We have our little protests to be heard and walk away...example RNC. Whats going on in Ukraine is beyond that...and whats worst is the fire is being fanned by Western interests.

*be aware this is coming from a guy who bashed MANY heads in with a baton for expressing what they thought was their god given right..so I might be a bit biased lol.It was overtime for me!

Yes the minute Ukraine becomes like Germany or worst California, I will give up my perm residency and sell my property and get out of there!

[Onto]

(01-22-2014 12:23 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

Interestingly there was a survey and most Ukrainians wished Putin was their leader lol.

I wish Putin was our leader too.

[Teedub]

(01-22-2014 06:53 PM)Onto Wrote:  

(01-22-2014 12:23 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

Interestingly there was a survey and most Ukrainians wished Putin was their leader lol.

I wish Putin was our leader too.

I think Putin is as 'alpha' as the next man, but this Eastern Europe/Russia worship has its limits. There's a reason why thousands of people are rioting.

[TripleG]

(01-22-2014 06:53 PM)Onto Wrote:  

(01-22-2014 12:23 PM)jimukr104 Wrote:  

Interestingly there was a survey and most Ukrainians wished Putin was their leader lol.

I wish Putin was our leader too.

I agree...US has a lot to learn from Russia. For example on how it deals with terror. Efficiently and quietly with no regard for the legal system. The western news won't tell you this but for the past year Russian special forces have been combing Dagestan, South Caucasus, Chechnya, and all the other shit-hole areas around Sochi and not arresting but executing suspected terrorists. Unfortunately in USA if we catch a suspect we give them a fair trial and waste taxpayers money.