[blkgatsby]

Currently I'm 25 and I just got my degree in Biology/Chemistry. While I didn't mind it in school, I'm not looking forward to going back for even more schooling, or making shit wages as a technician to an scientist. On top of that, I didn't make the highest grades, because again, I honestly didn't exactly like the subject.

I'm thinking either Quant Finance, or IBD, anyone here have experience in those?

I'm pretty hesitant about IB because of the long hours. 60 hr workweeks M-F I can live with, but weekends.....
Quant finance on the other hand< I'm honestly not too familiar about it. I do know some programming languages, and I'm adept at math, but that's as far as it goes.

Anyone knowledgeable about the career tracks I've mentioned?

[calidude]

(01-06-2014 11:10 PM)blkgatsby Wrote:  

Currently I'm 25 and I just got my degree in Biology/Chemistry. While I didn't mind it in school, I'm not looking forward to going back for even more schooling, or making shit wages as a technician to an scientist. On top of that, I didn't make the highest grades, because again, I honestly didn't exactly like the subject.

I'm thinking either Quant Finance, or IBD, anyone here have experience in those?

I'm pretty hesitant about IB because of the long hours. 60 hr workweeks M-F I can live with, but weekends.....
Quant finance on the other hand< I'm honestly not too familiar about it. I do know some programming languages, and I'm adept at math, but that's as far as it goes.

Anyone knowledgeable about the career tracks I've mentioned?

Head over to Wall Street Oasis and use the search function becuase it's been answered numerous times. I'm only college and IBD or S&T is my goal as well, but from what I understand 80-90 hours a week is the norm in IBD:http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/le...d-finance/

Quote:

Q: What about the typical work hours, especially at the junior levels?

A: Banking is banking – expect the typical 80-90 hours per week, sometimes more, sometimes (rarely) less.

Analysts in more capital markets-related roles might not work quite as many hours as those in traditional corporate finance because they follow market hours – but you’re still looking at 12-hour days at the minimum (and sometime much more), so it’s far from a 9-5 job. Capital markets analysts are in the office early and their days are pretty much non-stop action.

[Flavius Aetius]

(01-06-2014 11:10 PM)blkgatsby Wrote:  

Currently I'm 25 and I just got my degree in Biology/Chemistry. While I didn't mind it in school, I'm not looking forward to going back for even more schooling, or making shit wages as a technician to an scientist. On top of that, I didn't make the highest grades, because again, I honestly didn't exactly like the subject.

I'm thinking either Quant Finance, or IBD, anyone here have experience in those?

I'm pretty hesitant about IB because of the long hours. 60 hr workweeks M-F I can live with, but weekends.....
Quant finance on the other hand< I'm honestly not too familiar about it. I do know some programming languages, and I'm adept at math, but that's as far as it goes.

Anyone knowledgeable about the career tracks I've mentioned?

As it stands you do not have the qualifications for being a "quant" in the finance field. You typically need a masters or Ph.D in mathematics or a related field from a top tier school (very important). You also need to show high proficiency in computer science/programming to actually develop the computerized strategies and write the code for the algorithms.

Quants are usually people who work for hedge funds, prop desks (goldman, morgan stanley, citi, chase, etc), and professional trading firms and develop quantitative trading strategies. Very Very competitive and helps to know "friends" if you want a job.

Investment banking is much different. You generally need an MBA from a top 10 business school. They suggest finance/accounting or related fields for undergrad work, but it is not necessary. Have seen many science related majors get accepted to business schools. You need 3.75+ GPA and a very high GMAT score (and luck) to get accepted to a top 10 school.

I work at an investment advisory firm (no prop trading) in LA. I have a undergrad degree in History/accounting and a minor in finance. I work as a research analyst (US equities) and am currently 2 of 4 exams away from getting my CPA license. I was told the only way to move up was either MBA or CPA. Chose CPA because I already had the required accounting classes and I did not want to spend 70-80K+ on an MBA. The firm also wants me to go the CFA (chartered financial analyst) route which I am just beginning to prepare for (going to be a nightmare from what I have heard).

[blkgatsby]

^I live near Berkeley, which offers an MBA program geared towards Financial Engineering/Quant. I'll be MORE than happy to go back to school for that.

I figured since I'll probably get a software development job since I know some people (Again, it pays 2x as much as any BS Bio degree job will offer), I can sharpen my dev skills and apply for the program. And I heard that networking is an pretty effective way to at least get into a boutique IB. IDGAF about prestige at this point, I just want in!

[Peregrine]

Talk to WestCoast and/or check out his blog at wallstreetplayboys.com

[Searcher]

Get a one-year M.S. in finance or financial engineering. Half the time and cost of an M.B.A.

[freshblood]

(01-07-2014 11:40 AM)Searcher Wrote:  

Get a one-year M.S. in finance or financial engineering. Half the time and cost of an M.B.A.

^this, but if it's not from a good school it's worthless. The whole point of a degree like this is for the alumni network that you use to build connections to get a job.

[Searcher]

(01-08-2014 11:01 AM)freshblood Wrote:  

The whole point of a degree like this is for the alumni network that you use to build connections to get a job.

Good point. Many M.S. Finance programs are outside the business schools (in math/statistics/engineering) and all of them are new. Examples include Columbia, NYU, Cornell, and Stanford. Princeton has no business school. Carnegie Mellon, Berkeley, MIT, and UCLA run their programs out of the business school. Presumably the latter programs offer better access to established M.B.A. alumni networks.

https://www.quantnet.com/mfe-programs-rankings/
http://www.bus.lsu.edu/academics/finance...ograms.htm

[blkgatsby]

That I realize. I'm sticking with Berkeley for a few reasons:
Closeby to current location
Credible
Admissions people will actually give you direct feedback on what needs to be improved in order to gain admission to the program.
Only 1 year

Problem is they outright told me that I need to get a finance job or internship since I'm not a finance major, or have any applicable finance experience. So at this point won't I be better off studying for the CFA, networking my ass off and slip into a boutique IB at this point and ride it out?


I'm trying to pick the best path in terms of hours and pay. Sure I can slave it now while I'm still 25/26, but I can't slave it for 90 hours in my 30s easily without taking a hit in health. That's what I'm trying to avoid.

[freshblood]

You could try getting a job at a prop trading firm too.

As with everything, it's more who you know than anything else.

[Wahawahwah]

(01-07-2014 06:06 AM)Peregrine Wrote:  

Talk to WestCoast and/or check out his blog at wallstreetplayboys.com

Thanks for the blog reference man.
Its good.

[enfuego]

Former investment banker here. The suggestion to check out wallstreetoasis is a very good one. The fact is that, absent financial training or deep industry experience - which you wouldn't have by virtue of only having recently attained your degree - you're not going to get into banking.

If you have any financial and writing skills, you might want to try equity research. There you may find some value in your science background. Work can be somewhat similar to banking but with better hours and a path to the buyside. There are limited positions on the west coast, though those that will be there should be more tied into science and tech.

Good luck.

[Closer68]

How about Sales?

[SeanBateman]

(01-08-2014 01:47 PM)blkgatsby Wrote:  

I'm trying to pick the best path in terms of hours and pay. Sure I can slave it now while I'm still 25/26, but I can't slave it for 90 hours in my 30s easily without taking a hit in health. That's what I'm trying to avoid.

I think worrying about hours is the wrong way to look at it. If you're a math and programing wizard then pursue the quant route, if you're a bean counter or a hustler then get an MBA although you mentioned you didn't have great grades so you can pretty much rule out a top school and therefore rule out IB. And if you just got your degree at 25 then you are behind the game unless you were on the GI bill or something. The CFA can get you a job but it's a grind. If you pass the first level of the CFA that can get help you get your foot in the door of a company.

[blkgatsby]

(01-09-2014 11:56 AM)enfuego Wrote:  

Former investment banker here. The suggestion to check out wallstreetoasis is a very good one. The fact is that, absent financial training or deep industry experience - which you wouldn't have by virtue of only having recently attained your degree - you're not going to get into banking.

If you have any financial and writing skills, you might want to try equity research. There you may find some value in your science background. Work can be somewhat similar to banking but with better hours and a path to the buyside. There are limited positions on the west coast, though those that will be there should be more tied into science and tech.

Good luck.

I noticed that equity research (here on the west coast) has a bit easier pathway for breaking in since they are more focused with healthcare and Silicon Valley.

Only reason I care about IB for is exit opportunities/payoff potential for advancement. I'm not looking to make a career out of it. If Equity research can get me as much exit opportunities as IB without taking a significant pay hit, I'm golden.

That said I did find some equity research firms that I could network. I'll still have to take the CFA....

[WestCoast]

Your best bet: Bio-tech/medical tech/medical Equity Research or boutique investment banking medical sector.

Steps to goal: 1) CFA level 1, pass it, 2) 1,000 -2,000 cold emails, 3) 500 linked in emails, 4) 500+ phone calls to hiring managers (vice president or above).

Chance of success with my recommendation? Generally 10-20% with the limited information you gave
Chances of being a quant at a legit firm? Maybe 0.50%
Chances of being a quant at a legit firm and not being made fun of for the rest of your life and having no game?
Maybe 0.00006%

Exit ops for IBD is always higher than ER. Unless you're at a VP role or higher. You can delay the pain of hardwork, just don't be surprised when you pay the price for not doing the work early.

[j r]

There is a back door way of gettin into IB, but it's a but of a long shot as all the pieces have to fall into place. Go take your bio/tech credentials to some third world country and do something vaguely humanitarian. It doesn't have to be straight non-profit work, but it needs to be something that can be ostensibly spun into a story about helping poor people.

After you've done that sort of work for a couple of years, apply to top-ten business schools. In your applications, talk about how you want to use your MBA to bring better practices to NGO type activities. Business schools have a certain number of spots for non-traditional do-goosed types. Once you're in, you can pursue whatever you want.

Like I said, it's a long shot, but the upside is that a couple of years spent working third world start ups is itself a great experience. And if you manage to get into a decent business school and don't get an IB summer position, there will be lots of other opportunities available.

[WestCoast]

^ while Jr's strategy will work to an extent I have a hard time ever recommending this path.

Let's say it works. 1) he makes what $50-60K for 3 years? Okay so he saves maybe $30K net. 2) now he has to pay for a $180K MBA?

That's net down $120K at the minimum. (I'm being generous, that is a NET number)

Now he goes to investment banking. First he will not land a top tier firm with that résumé. He will land tier 2 if he gets lucky. That's a 10% cut to all in compensation.

Let's assume he beats all odds and gets paid top tier anyway. He lands a spot at a bulge bracket like DB.

$200-250K. All in compensation. ($135-165 NET)

Now your costs are higher. You need at least 80-90K (~50K net) to live a normal life (with girls etc) in a big city because you must live near work. You will be fired if you commute because you won't have enough energy to perform well on the job.

He can save maybe $50-70K (NET) a year. Roughly speaking it will take him 2-3 years to be BREAK EVEN on a net worth basis.

He is 25.

So he would be 32-33 years old with a networth of $0.

Would not do it. The numbers don't lie.

[blkgatsby]

(01-15-2014 12:14 PM)j r Wrote:  

There is a back door way of gettin into IB, but it's a but of a long shot as all the pieces have to fall into place. Go take your bio/tech credentials to some third world country and do something vaguely humanitarian. It doesn't have to be straight non-profit work, but it needs to be something that can be ostensibly spun into a story about helping poor people.

After you've done that sort of work for a couple of years, apply to top-ten business schools. In your applications, talk about how you want to use your MBA to bring better practices to NGO type activities. Business schools have a certain number of spots for non-traditional do-goosed types. Once you're in, you can pursue whatever you want.

Like I said, it's a long shot, but the upside is that a couple of years spent working third world start ups is itself a great experience. And if you manage to get into a decent business school and don't get an IB summer position, there will be lots of other opportunities available.

Nice, but nothing destroys your career like early philanthropy. On top of that, the large majority of my family is in a third world country, so it wouldn't do much for me in terms of experience. I'm with Westcoast, and if I can avoid going to B school and burning through $150K+ (Including lost wages), I'd rather do just that. Besides I still have undergrad loans to worry about too although, it's not much.

Besides if I spent a good year networking, I'd likely land a offer from someone sympathetic enough. Worst comes to worst I'd have to work for free to get my foot in.

[j r]

To be honest, I wouldn't recommend investment banking to anyone, unless you have a hard on for the work and the sado-masochistic tendencies to put up with the work. I don't know any bankers who aren't miserable.

If you don't want to go to business school though, how else would you get into banking. You might be able to land an analyst gig now, but that's two, three years tops before they boot you. What am I missing? Is there a way to become an IB associate that doesn't involve an MBA?

[WestCoast]

^ you don't need an MBA to become an associate. That is a myth.

The real key is to join a bank that has a history of promoting internally. That's it.

Most people who get kicked out after 2-3 years didn't make the cut.

Also, even if you do get kicked out, if you went to a major bank, you'll have a job offered to you before you send in your goodbye email. These are "chill jobs" that pay $80-100K a year on the corporate side waiting for you like limo service.

People who hate on IB with a passion either 1) sucked at it or 2) never worked in it. The miserable guys in investment banking are the guys who don't get promoted. 95/100 candidates will not make it from analyst to associate. Straight up. Final nail in the coffin, anyone who says it's "all politics" was a shitty analyst who no one liked, the truth is if you can go 3 years without bitching I peg the chances of you getting promoted at 50/50. Yep so that means 90/100 people start complaining in he office environment by the end of year 1.

I have made several important decisions in my life, going to work on Wall Street is the best decision I have ever made. Period. It's not even debatable.

Then again I knew what I was signing up for. Short term pain and suffering. The end result is worth the suffering by a country mile.

I would rather pay the price of success early
then try to pay the price later, when it is too late and I don't have the energy.

[j r]

I thought you were a hedge fund guy?

I'm not using the term investment banking as a catch all for finance. Everyone I know who has worked in investment banking was miserable. And most were/are looking for exit strategies. That's not to say they quit or gave up. Like I said, you have to want it and haw the personality to put up with it.

Also, I'd say that a good percentage of the people who leave banking to go to business school do it to give themselves a two year break from banking.

[WestCoast]

^ how do you get into a top PE shop or a hedge fund. That answers your question.

Generally unless daddy is the Partner at the PE firm or PM at a fund you're going to have to go through the sell side to get to the buyside.

Again, your "friends" or "colleagues" sucked. Yes that is "mean" to write on the Internet but it is true. If you are offered an associate position take a wild guess if you'll have the buyside knocking on your door for an interview.

How do u get an associate offer? Get ranked #1 every year. Who do you think gets these amazing exit opps to a hedge fund or PE firm? The guy who is ranked... In the top bucket. You can't fake it in this business. You are literally asked "what were you ranked" point blank during recruiting. You show them your ranking and they say yes or no if they will interview you. If you're 30/30, goodbye. You have to start over at the bottom.

If you think "average" on the sell-side is going to cut it to make it to the buyside... You're in denial.

On top of all this? You're probably interviewing for both PE and HF because the slots open are so limited. That associate offer is pretty much a $250K golden ticket.

[j r]

Honestly, I'm not really sure what you're talking about. All I said was all the people I know that were bankers were miserable. I didn't say they quit or washed out or weren't successful. Most of them are glad they did it. That doesn't mean that they aren't or weren't miserable.

You just have to be someone who can thrive in that environment. Not sure why you're disagreeing when we're saying basically the same thing.

[blkgatsby]

IB is gruelling. I know.
Personally I'd rather deal with the first 2 years of IBD, than going for a top tier PhD program, or settle for an average ass 9-5 job. For a PhD Science program, its basically undergrad all over again, except with some batshit professor that you'd have to pull all nighters to get the data done in time, and the job prospects hardly improve much once your 4+ years are up.

And I'd rather do IB, hours and all, than stick with an average salary, and complain that I'm broke and can't afford to do anything with my meager salary, and envy every person that makes more. Fuck that.