[WestCoast]

^ haha got a legit laugh out of me. Good comeback (no I am not joking I am serious).

It's still out there though. There are 5 websites I can think of as of now that have this on there.

Generally the websites known to have legit people get pushed to the top of google results.

[Gunner]

WestCoast is legit.

[EddieValiant]

I think WC sounds a bit too optimistic on breaking in. Unfortunately, the odds are greatly against you and you're going to need to work incredibly hard and need a ton of luck to go with it.

First and foremost, decide whether this is something you REALLY want. Learn about the industry, finance, etc. Start following the markets, read the journal daily. Do you want to spend 12-18hours a day doing something you despise for a large paycheck? <<Closest thing to dying while alive.

If it still is, you have two routes:

1a - CFA level 1. Without a background in finance, you'll prob spend 300hours studying. And unfortunately, will have to use the text provided by cfa institute (very thick). You'll have to give up your life for 6 months. Do your 9-5, come home, eat, hit the books. No need to visit this forum. You won't have time for game.

1b - Network. You could happen to pass all 3 levels of the CFA. Without a network, it'll all be useless. PM if you want more info on this. Most common way to go about this is to email randoms on linkedin, attempt to build a relationship and have them vouch for you when an opening comes thru.


2 - Best bet is to go back to school though for a lower level MBA. Pref in a finance hub city. Network. Intern. Profit. Going this route will give you a much higher chance of working for some of the larger institutions.

[EddieValiant]

one more thing. I wish you the best but if I were you, my greatest fear in all of this would be failing to make it to the top and having to settle for a support function. I would imagine this to be DEVASTATING. Support teams are like the dishwashers at McDonalds. Probably worse. Definitely lay out some specific goals on what you want to do within the industry.

[Searcher]

(01-23-2014 02:53 PM)EddieValiant Wrote:  

I think WC sounds a bit too optimistic on breaking in.

1a - CFA level 1.

The CFA is an asset management credential. I question how impressive it is in investment banking analyst circles.

Westcoast is reticent about his school connections, but I believe he got his job after studying finance in college. That undermines his networking message. Here is a video of his interviews.

[WestCoast]

Yes an MBA would be easier I already said that in the previous posts.

The MBA issue is $200K in debt.

My approach is his best chance at getting in without losing hundreds of thousands of dollars to debt. I think the chances of a low end bank is <10% I think that's far from "optimistic".

Finally anyone taking 3 levels of the CFA to break into IBD is an idiot. It's not a transferable skill at all.

I am clearly suggesting CFA level 1 as proof that he understands financial statements since his résumé and degree have zero finance credentials on it. It makes his spin in the interview easier does it not? It clearly does and getting 2 and 3 would show incompetency and waste his time.

---

You guys either don't understand my message or you are just trolling. I can tell both of you know the space in general.

My question is this: How else do you break in without $200K in MBA debt in his shoes?

My solution is the best "shot" and is far from easy. But there is no other choice excluding MBA debt = not worth it IMHO.

How is that shitty advice? It's true and both of you know it. This also assumes he actually wants to do this.

Rest my case.

[EddieValiant]

WC - Agreed. What you suggested is best suited for OP if his goal is just to break in. He won't end up anywhere great and won't really have the option to move to a better bank. We all know it's easier to move from GS to a 10 man boutique than it is the other way around.

I only rec. doing the MBA because everyone's goal should be to make it to MM bank or a strong boutique at the very least. I think 200k is worth it if you can secure an analyst role at a rothschild, bnp, etc.

Regarding 3 levels of the CFA. I was trying to say without networking, everything else is useless.

Searcher - Level 1 will show that you are on the same level knowledge wise as someone with a degree in finance. Unless you're working asset management or research, anything past the first level is a waste of time.

[WestCoast]

Glad you see the point. We simply disagree on the $200K on debt. That is a huge load to take on (on top of current debt he says he has). I doubt he would get into a top tier MBA program as well with his current set up. Even if he got a MM job, he has to survive at least 3-4 years to break even. Then he is what? 34 with a zero net worth?

May as well choose a different career IMHO.

[Frank]

(01-23-2014 03:36 PM)WestCoast Wrote:  

Glad you see the point. We simply disagree on the $200K on debt. That is a huge load to take on (on top of current debt he says he has). I doubt he would get into a top tier MBA program as well with his current set up. Even if he got a MM job, he has to survive at least 3-4 years to break even. Then he is what? 34 with a zero net worth?

May as well choose a different career IMHO.

I just checked at HEC Paris, and their "grande ecole" master in management costs 35k euros per year. With living expenses over two years, that's roughly 100k euros. If (and I think that's a yes) one gets access to on campus recruitment/etc, then that's a better deal than an MBA, when you account for the cost. It's roughly half the price, including living expenses.

I think a master's in Finance at the top UK schools (LSE, LBS, etc) might end up being around the same, when you account for living expenses.

[WestCoast]

^ now we're getting to a different situation. All of my posts were directed at the OP.

Obviously if you can get to a top tier MBA for cheap then you're a fool not to take it and simply go through on campus recruiting.

That is a different discussion entirely.

You are also comparing a masters in finance to an MBA which are entirely different spins and we have To go through which schools are targets blah blah. But you guys know all this.

[blkgatsby]

I'm shooting for either IB or ER. It's been something that I've been thinking about for a while now. Personally I don't really care about jumping ship to a hedge or PE firm because it will be the same exact work that happens in IB. I can deal with the hours provided it leads somewhere in my career....I'm not doing IB if all I get is fired in two years with nowhere to go.

If moving from a boutique to a MM is that hard, would it even be worth the effort vs going for a speciality ER position?

[WestCoast]

LOL the work is not the same in PE and HFs versus IBD. The hours are also not the same at all long-term. You're going from the intermediary to the actionary position. The skillset is transferable but is not apples to apples.

All that aside what I outlined is the best shot, albeit low probability for both ER and IBD. Getting in is going to be the hardest part so I wouldn't even think about "what's next" until you sign that first offer letter since the field is cut throat.

I am happy putting this under my name. Anyone who survives two years in investment banking is already borderline insane from a masochistic perspective. The chances of you being "unemployed" after a real stint on Wall Street is next to zero unless you don't feel like working and want to take a break.

---

On a side note based on your posts I don't believe you want to actually work on Wall Street for the right reasons so I would sit down and really ask of you want to do this. In the original post you said 80 hours is "too much" if that's even a questionable work week for you then the job is definitely not for you. Weeks range 60-120 hours in IBD, so 80-85 is the norm.

Sit down and ask if you will actually like the work, if not you may be better with a different path.

[OkStudies]

High finance? Is there a "low finance"?

[WestCoast]

^ back office.

High finance is venture capital, hedge funds, private equity, sales and trading, equity research, investment banking.

The rest is complete garbage bullshit where you make $100-150K a year and are stuck there for decades on end. Starting pay for those gigs is actually around $50-70 ALL IN. So they are not high finance. If you don't make 6 digits out of undergraduate chances it is high finance is pretty much 0%.

The only exception to this is if you have a book of biz (ie running millions to billions of dollars for people).

99% of guys who say they work in finance work in bullshit like asset management, wealth management and private wealth. Unless they are elite (top of the food chain) these guys cap @ a buck to buck fifty (by age 30-32 or so).

---

Within the street top of the food chain:
1. Venture capital, hedge fund, private equity
2. Investment banking
3. Research/sales and trading/corp dev

[blkgatsby]

At least you have the possibility of seeing 6 figures with those jobs. For most STEM majors you'll be lucky to reach 70k by your 30s. Engineering and Comp Sci are strong exceptions to that.

Oh and I DO have access to a target school's alumni network…would that benefit me any for a position in a company?

[enfuego]

Again, I'll echo what Westcoast says. While the skills developed in IBD are valuable in the investment management role, investment judgment neither taught nor a fundamental part of the job. Unless you're a pure quant, a CFA and masters of finance are not very valuable in learning the fundamentals of investment judgment IMHO Career switch to the buyside is very challenging, though not impossible, particularly pre-MBA. wall street oasis has a million threads on this and, with all due respect to the accumulated knowledge in this forum, that's where I'd be asking these questions.

[Nemencine]

delete. double post.

check post below.

[Nemencine]

I have been reading this thread.....

There are lot of posts here that brings different perspective to career on wallstreet.....

I have something personal i want to ask: With the absolute intent of making the most amount of money as quickly as possible...i.e. reaching a $1million per year as fast as possible... i mean, to hell with the $155K to $200K per year pay.
Willing to change career gears if necessary to reach that goal of $1million per year ... barely 30 yrs old. i am curious, what advice will you give to somebody with this kind of curriculum vitae(attached below).... who want to reach that million dollar benchmark.
[i have blocked the names and current/past place of employment, because i personally know the person(we are good friends since our university days.)]

The first attachments are his qualifications... the second are his education... top honours in everything. ... even passed all 3 levels of CFA at first attempt. CFA = chartered financial analyst (all 3 levels) is one of the most brutal exams on wallstreet. Less than 20% pass rate the first try.

Advice? thoughts? Feel free to pm me, if you dont want to post it here.

[PduJ]

I decided to churn in on this topic as I found it quite interesting and was wondering on the side of the quant.

About me: I'm Europe-based (Dutch). I'm basically in love with math and did programming all my life, quite sure I'm really good at it. However I was an incredible introvert at the start of my bachelors leading me to think I should fix it by partying it up and getting laid. There's a few reasons (medical, but definately not an excuse for the amount of time!) for this but in the bluntest of words I took 6 years to do my Bachelor in Physics. This makes me 24 going into my Masters in Financial Engineering in Sweden (don't have the money/bachelor grades to hit top universities in UK). Recently I had a wake up call that being a manwhore is fun, but it is time to use my math skills to make some money. Some questions:

-Pursue a PhD vs starting at a smaller firm (Dutch/Swedish banks)?: Bigger chance of hitting a good firm vs being done at the age of 29, even though I'll probably enjoy it depending on the city.

-Chance of going international: Is Wall Street as a quant still an option, what stepping stones are needed to reach NYC? Frankfurt/London?

-Amount of weekly hours for a quant, I've heard stories ranging from 50-80. What are the factors that influence this?

-Any other skills required?: C++, MATLAB and recently Python. Really interested in math applied to computational scenarios. Good social skills, especially for someone so deep into math. I do think the competition at the top tier is quite immense, so not 100% sure what'll suffice.

[Peregrine]

(06-28-2015 05:43 AM)PduJ Wrote:  

I decided to churn in on this topic as I found it quite interesting and was wondering on the side of the quant.

About me: I'm Europe-based (Dutch). I'm basically in love with math and did programming all my life, quite sure I'm really good at it. However I was an incredible introvert at the start of my bachelors leading me to think I should fix it by partying it up and getting laid. There's a few reasons (medical, but definately not an excuse for the amount of time!) for this but in the bluntest of words I took 6 years to do my Bachelor in Physics. This makes me 24 going into my Masters in Financial Engineering in Sweden (don't have the money/bachelor grades to hit top universities in UK). Recently I had a wake up call that being a manwhore is fun, but it is time to use my math skills to make some money. Some questions:

-Pursue a PhD vs starting at a smaller firm (Dutch/Swedish banks)?: Bigger chance of hitting a good firm vs being done at the age of 29, even though I'll probably enjoy it depending on the city.

-Chance of going international: Is Wall Street as a quant still an option, what stepping stones are needed to reach NYC? Frankfurt/London?

-Amount of weekly hours for a quant, I've heard stories ranging from 50-80. What are the factors that influence this?

-Any other skills required?: C++, MATLAB and recently Python. Really interested in math applied to computational scenarios. Good social skills, especially for someone so deep into math. I do think the competition at the top tier is quite immense, so not 100% sure what'll suffice.

Absolutely start working rather than go for a PhD. If you go for the PhD, you'd better do internships at the same time. Work experience is king. This is non-negotiable.

Wall Street as a quant is certainly an option. There are no cut and dry stepping stones to get there - it's all about the networking and how good you are.

Weekly hours depend on the firm's culture. 50 to 80 is a good ballpark. The more you make, the longer you will probably be working.

Your skill set sounds good, and the good social skills are a big plus. A lot of the best quants downright make people feel uncomfortable. That said, if your goal is Wall Street quant, then you'd better be amongst the best.

[Easy_C]

In hindset I'm kind of curious what happened to the OP.

One thing I'll throw out is that for tradition IBD roles, the bar is getting somewhat easier....ESPECIALLY for veterans as I've heard via a program manager who in turn knows numerous BB recruiters that they've had better results with vets than with ivy-league millenials: the vets have a better work ethic(used to long hours), are easily trainable, and lack the "special snowflake" mentality that means you just hired a useless employee and have to take the time and expense to replace him.


It's also getting easier to break in. I'm starting at a top 20 school this year (think KenanFlagler/Goizueta/Kelley/GeorgeTown) and, although only a few of the current students attempted IBD recruiting, all of them secured internships or full time offers in Investment Banking.

[captain_shane]

Fuck all this MBA shit, just learn how to fly fish, drive a taxi, or play tennis and hit up Bill Ackman.

http://dealbreaker.com/2012/05/give-a-bi...ng-square/

[Easy_C]

So how do you suggest we get in touch with bill ackman? We just shoot him a friendly email and meet up?

[TheNinja]

Just do Corporate Finance, make 120k per year and work 40 hours a week. Game the rest of the time. Bank!

[PduJ]

(06-28-2015 08:01 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  

(06-28-2015 05:43 AM)PduJ Wrote:  

I decided to churn in on this topic as I found it quite interesting and was wondering on the side of the quant.

About me: I'm Europe-based (Dutch). I'm basically in love with math and did programming all my life, quite sure I'm really good at it. However I was an incredible introvert at the start of my bachelors leading me to think I should fix it by partying it up and getting laid. There's a few reasons (medical, but definately not an excuse for the amount of time!) for this but in the bluntest of words I took 6 years to do my Bachelor in Physics. This makes me 24 going into my Masters in Financial Engineering in Sweden (don't have the money/bachelor grades to hit top universities in UK). Recently I had a wake up call that being a manwhore is fun, but it is time to use my math skills to make some money. Some questions:

-Pursue a PhD vs starting at a smaller firm (Dutch/Swedish banks)?: Bigger chance of hitting a good firm vs being done at the age of 29, even though I'll probably enjoy it depending on the city.

-Chance of going international: Is Wall Street as a quant still an option, what stepping stones are needed to reach NYC? Frankfurt/London?

-Amount of weekly hours for a quant, I've heard stories ranging from 50-80. What are the factors that influence this?

-Any other skills required?: C++, MATLAB and recently Python. Really interested in math applied to computational scenarios. Good social skills, especially for someone so deep into math. I do think the competition at the top tier is quite immense, so not 100% sure what'll suffice.

Absolutely start working rather than go for a PhD. If you go for the PhD, you'd better do internships at the same time. Work experience is king. This is non-negotiable.

Wall Street as a quant is certainly an option. There are no cut and dry stepping stones to get there - it's all about the networking and how good you are.

Weekly hours depend on the firm's culture. 50 to 80 is a good ballpark. The more you make, the longer you will probably be working.

Your skill set sounds good, and the good social skills are a big plus. A lot of the best quants downright make people feel uncomfortable. That said, if your goal is Wall Street quant, then you'd better be amongst the best.

Definitely very helpful reply, thanks a lot!