[WestCoast]

I am saying that the ones that are miserable are miserable temporarily or suck.

You're making it seem like you can just go from college to the buyside, and that doesn't happen

I don't know how anyone can be miserable getting paid $145K out of college. I didn't bitch at all. I came in skipping after my first 48 hour shift. But yes "average" analyst/associate is miserable. Don't be average.

[Searcher]

(01-15-2014 12:14 PM)j r Wrote:  

a long shot as all the pieces have to fall into place. Go take your bio/tech credentials to some third world country and do something vaguely humanitarian, apply to top-ten business schools.

Why shouldn't he just get an analyst job immediately? If he gets promoted in three years then he doesn't need the M.B.A. If he doesn't get promoted then he can apply anyway. I don't comprehend your logic that doing humanitarian work is a good strategy to get into business school. Do you know anyone who has successfully done this instead of an analyst or science/engineering job?

[j r]

(01-15-2014 10:26 PM)Searcher Wrote:  

(01-15-2014 12:14 PM)j r Wrote:  

a long shot as all the pieces have to fall into place. Go take your bio/tech credentials to some third world country and do something vaguely humanitarian, apply to top-ten business schools.

Why shouldn't he just get an analyst job immediately? If he gets promoted in three years then he doesn't need the M.B.A. If he doesn't get promoted then he can apply anyway. I don't comprehend your logic that doing humanitarian work is a good strategy to get into business school. Do you know anyone who has successfully done this instead of an analyst or science/engineering job?

That's why I said back door, as in alternate route if he couldn't get an analyst job. And yes, I know people who went to business school and got banking jobs who didn't come from banking or even finance. They're all out of the ordinary cases, though; either guys with extraordinary backgrounds or attractive girls.

Also, I said something vaguely humanitarian, like work for a health or tech start-up, something that can be spun on an application into some kind of save the world bullshit. Anyway, if he doesn't want to go to business school, it's a moot point anyway.

[WestCoast]

@op

Look it's simple. Follow the advice I gave. Your best shot in the next 12 months is 1) pass CFA level 1, 2) in the mean time work some shitty finance internships so your résumé isn't blank (wealth management, financial advisors etc), 3) network like a mother fucker.

Your resume is not good enough for a bulge bracket or mid market firm in all honesty. Find the random boutique firms (not moelis/evercore/Lazard/quat... etc.). Hammer those doors down. If you can find a boutique investment bank that has medical and you have a CFA level 1 passed and some finance experience you are now above water.

Your spin:

"I loved working with xxxx medical stuff, but after becoming interested in the markets particularly medical stocks (have a stock to pitch and at least tell them you own a few shares) I decided to increase my finance knowledge. I took an internship at xxx firm and xxx firm and also passed the first level of the CFA to ensure I had the required baseline knowledge to do the job. (One sentence on why you want to work with them specifically)."

Done.

This is coming from a guy who has reviewed 1,000+ resumes in real life and has interviewed several people both on the phone and in real life, for real jobs on Wall Street. Not myths and nonsense based on theory, real life.

If you don't think that strategy works, go to WSO or contact other people who WORK on the street with certainty and tell them the strategy I outlined. $100 says they will say it is your best bet. You can apply to all pieces, IB/ER/Sales with that set up. Unless you want to drop a 2 handle on an MBA.

Even after all that, be warned this is not a guaranteed job, but the highest probability move to break in. (I noted before maybe 10-20% success rate all dependent on the internships you land).

[enfuego]

I'm going to echo what Westcoast is saying. It's not going to be an easy path but if it's something you want to do, follow what he says. IB doesn't have to be the end all, be all but it's the best education/apprenticeship that you'll ever do. I likened it to doing a medical residency and was able to parlay my experience into a job in PE. Was banking intense - of course. Then again, so was the rest of my education, even if the "working hours" weren't quite so bad. Consider it the price of ambition.

[WestCoast]

^ spoken like someone who actually has (or still does?) work in high finance.

If you want to get to a hedge fund or PE firm you pretty much have to go to IBD (unless mommy or daddy hooks you up). If you want to make money in life you have to pay the price somewhere. Somehow you're going to pay a hefty price.

I will never understand the obsession with kids and education. Who would you rather learn from? Some crack pot professor or the guy in the office next to you who makes 10x what you make. Seems like a no brainer to me.

If this means not being able to see straight for several weeks at a time, so be it.

If you were in your 30's you would have a zero percent shot at getting an entry position and also a zero percent shot at competing with hungry cut your throat and piss on your family level competitors in their 20's.

Pay the price of success early when your body can take it. Chasing money working 80+ hours a week later in life will really fuck up your health.

[Searcher]

(01-16-2014 02:51 PM)WestCoast Wrote:  

would you rather learn from ... Some crack pot professor or the guy in the office next to you who makes 10x what you make?

Would you rather learn from Angelo Dundee or Muhammad Ali? Cus D'Amato, or Mike Tyson? I doubt Usain Bolt would make me a better sprinter.

Some rich bosses are always busy or gone, with no time to mentor. They exploit their employees and never promote them. You want a boss who is going places and will promote you to fill the vacuum. You noted that some firms routinely promote analysts to associates, while others do not. Personally, I think it is crazy to work long hours if you are eventually going back to school and starting over at another firm.

[Peregrine]

(01-17-2014 08:43 AM)Searcher Wrote:  

(01-16-2014 02:51 PM)WestCoast Wrote:  

would you rather learn from ... Some crack pot professor or the guy in the office next to you who makes 10x what you make?

Would you rather learn from Angelo Dundee or Muhammad Ali? Cus D'Amato, or Mike Tyson? I doubt Usain Bolt would make me a better sprinter.

Some rich bosses are always busy or gone, with no time to mentor. They exploit their employees and never promote them. You want a boss who is going places and will promote you to fill the vacuum. You noted that some firms routinely promote analysts to associates, while others do not. Personally, I think it is crazy to work long hours if you are eventually going back to school and starting over at another firm.

Faulty analogy. Would you rather learn from Cus D'Amato or a guy who read 1,000 books on boxing (and published several himself), but has never seen a boxing ring in person?

[WestCoast]

Come on man. Searcher, you seem to have some experience in the field or a similar field you know what my point is.

If you have a high powered boss who actually promoted you once already the chances of him promoting you again (if you don't fuck it up) is quite high.

You don't go and get an MBA if you're on the path to another promotion. You know the point I am making.

A high powered boss who likes you is 10000x more valuable than a piece of paper that says you're smart. It's kind of a joke because I literally interviewed a guy with a PHD this week and the kid is going to work below me if we hire him. Needless to say the point remains, find a place that promotes within. Outperform. Don't be a dick and be awesome to be around. Connect with a guy with real power who has a history of promotions.

That's how you succeed. Papers, books and shit aren't gonna help you make money compared to a baller who likes you.

You already read my other posts so you know that is not what I meant at all. You also know the coaching example is nitpicking as well, the point is always the same real life experience wins. Splitting hairs here man.

[Richiavelli]

(01-17-2014 09:20 AM)WestCoast Wrote:  

If you have a high powered boss who actually promoted you once already the chances of him promoting you again (if you don't fuck it up) is quite high.

You don't go and get an MBA if you're on the path to another promotion. You know the point I am making.

A high powered boss who likes you is 10000x more valuable than a piece of paper that says you're smart. It's kind of a joke because I literally interviewed a guy with a PHD this week and the kid is going to work below me if we hire him. Needless to say the point remains, find a place that promotes within. Outperform. Don't be a dick and be awesome to be around. Connect with a guy with real power who has a history of promotions.

That's how you succeed. Papers, books and shit aren't gonna help you make money compared to a baller who likes you.

This is such an epic thread on so many levels and echos a lot of things I've been learning recently. Granted doing taxes for hedge funds/PE in public accounting isn't high finance, I am starting to think an MBA isn't actually necessary to switch into doing hedge funds/PE.

PS westcoast wallstreetplayboys is the shit, I started reading The Intelligent Investor after seeing it on the recommendations page. Such an awesome book.

[blkgatsby]

^^^If you are doing taxes for hedge, I'm sure the guy could hook you up with something if you are really hungry for it. It might take working for free, but YMMV.

Anyway, I've started networking. Is it just me or does sourcing and cold calling firms feel a lot like approaching and talking to girls? I'm keeping track of my "leads" on Excel, and I've reached out to a couple of them, but I'm going to refrain from doing any more approaches until I'm more knowledgeable in the subject. I'd look foolish trying to get a hold of an senior banker or ER analyst if I can't explain a simple DCF.

And the CFA... There's only 2 test dates, June and December. Assuming I pass the one in June, I wont be able to even see the results until July/August at the earliest. Which one would be best to sign up for?

[WestCoast]

^ you should be able to pass the exam by June. You're on an extremely short clock to get in so don't waste any time. You're 25.

Also if a managing director ever asks you to walk him through a dcf I'll give you $100. Lol.

Md = people skills
VP = highly technical
Associate = mix if technical and people
Analyst = no one gives a fuck about their opinion (unless they are about to be promoted)

Everything in life is sales man. Sales will change your life forever.

It's all about "approval" who approves of you. If George Soros approves/likes you the chances of you being broke is next to zero.

[Peregrine]

(01-19-2014 11:44 AM)WestCoast Wrote:  

Everything in life is sales man. Sales will change your life forever.

Have any book recommendations on the topic of sales?

[ElJefe]

Why is age 25 significant?

[Architekt]

(01-19-2014 11:44 AM)WestCoast Wrote:  

It's all about "approval" who approves of you. If George Soros approves/likes you the chances of you being broke is next to zero.

So, if your boss has a biography, read it? Go through his wiki page? Find every last bit of info you can possibly scrape up about him and his company, and use that to find some common ground that you can exploit before applying?

[WestCoast]

1) IMHO it is more profitable to learn Internet sales if you're trying to make money. Talk to WWT on Internet sales

2) age 25 is huge because at 26-27 you should be an associate ie, 10-15 hours less per week... Ie: if you're 27-30 trying to land an analyst gig you got very little shot. You don't have the energy to compete. As an idea, many associate candidates (out of B school) will interview without wedding rings just to get an edge(implied message is they have more bandwidth to commit to work). So if you're well into your late 20's you have to find a way to the associate level.

3) yes you should know who interviews you. It's much easier to make a connection. You don't walk into a merger Arb interview and pitch a long-only name. You don't go into a private equity interview if you can't build an LBO. Basically you use all the data you can get to give you an edge. That is what people mean by "interview prep". If I know out the gate you're a value investor I won't be pitching you twitter stock in the interview

[Frank]

(01-16-2014 12:22 AM)WestCoast Wrote:  

Your resume is not good enough for a bulge bracket or mid market firm in all honesty. Find the random boutique firms (not moelis/evercore/Lazard/quat... etc.). Hammer those doors down. If you can find a boutique investment bank that has medical and you have a CFA level 1 passed and some finance experience you are now above water.

How would you modify this advice for someone who:

a) is in Germany studying a bachelor's in physics (few programs taught in English, preferred to go for STEM instead of "business" or "international relations")
b) is in the north (closest big cities are Hamburg, Bremen, and Hanover)

I tried reading up on as much as I could about how hiring works here. I learned that which school you go/went to does not matter as much as it does than if you had studied in the US or UK. That said, there are some private business schools where banks hire people, and that leads on to the next thing: I heard that most people working in finance here have studied something related to that at university. (economics, etc) I also hear that the two Munich universities are well represented, and that German/European (except UK) banks tend to hire people with a master's for entry level positions.

Ideally, I'd wanna work in a major European city, and if it works that way, London or NYC later down the line. That said, I'll take anything I can get.

So what should I be doing? What should I know before I start cold e-mailing/calling boutique firms for internships? Read through books like Monkey Business (Approved Products on the wallstreetplayboys.com)?

Ideally, I don't wanna stay in school for more than a bachelor's. I started a year late at 20, and will be 23 when I graduate. More schooling looks like more unnecessary trouble. That's also 1-2 years I could be making more money with, but if it takes a master's to get my foot in the door, I'll do that. With my background in mind, would that make sense?

I thought of England, but the master's programs are incredibly short. Around 10 months, which doesn't leave me any time to leverage the school's connections for a summer internship between the first and second year. Schools like ISEAD, HEC, and ESSEC in France look like good bets...but then I have the same problem I would with top 10 MBAs...they're expensive as fuck.

Would appreciate your thoughts on the matter. Thanks.

[WestCoast]

1) take all the finance courses you can accounting corp fin etc. Without them you won't get any interviews
2) get bottom barrel finance internships and work up once the course work is on your résumé
3) target Frankfurt for your IB hopes, going international will be next to 0 probability of success because you have to prove you are worth the added cost of an international hire and you have to out shine every local candidate

The rest of your questions have been addressed here: wallstreetplayboys.com/stand-out-as-a-non-target-recruiting-into-wall-street/

You should also find a contact in Germany within the sector you wish to break into, they can flush out any Germany specific questions you may have.

[blkgatsby]

For the meantime, what jobs should I be shooting for to give myself the best chance?
Low level consulting firm? (Doubt it would be helpful, my GPA is too low for MBB, and I didn't major in a quantitative subject making my GPA irrelevant anyway)
Various mid market firms like real estate?

Also I've seen stuff on Doostang, but there they highly prefer people from target schools.

[WestCoast]

That has also already been covered, I'm gonna stop posting on this since it's already readily available in a quick search...

http://wallstreetplayboys.com/navigating-wall-street/

Consulting has nothing to do with finance (unless you're in a finance specific consulting role) so that's not an easy sell. Gauge your résumé, see where you can break in and go as high up the tier as possible.

[polymath]

(01-15-2014 10:23 PM)WestCoast Wrote:  

I am saying that the ones that are miserable are miserable temporarily or suck.

You're making it seem like you can just go from college to the buyside, and that doesn't happen

I don't know how anyone can be miserable getting paid $145K out of college. I didn't bitch at all. I came in skipping after my first 48 hour shift. But yes "average" analyst/associate is miserable. Don't be average.

Who on the sell side is making $145k right out of college this year? That's about double base pay for bulge bracket banks on the street. I suppose it's not impossible but either you know something that I don't, or the number isn't precise.

[WestCoast]

Man i don't even know why I am answering maybe because I am in a good mood. Just google "top bucket investment banking analyst bulge bracket". Go find the numbers.

I already stated you can find this in a google search.

A guy I helped place at a major E-boutique made $150k his first year (2013). He snap chatted me his review + all in comp statement every bank gives you so I know it wasn't a lie. It also makes sense.

100% of base is bonus for low end top bucket. That's $70K base + $70K bonus. So yes it is an accurate statement.

You are saying pay is only base pay = no offense but you lose all of your credibility with that statement. It's usually 15K sign on, 70K base and 100% of base as bonus for a bulge bracket.

Again I am assuming top tier because if you're in the bottom or mid tier your bonus is in the 25-50 range which means no way in hell you're making it to the buyside or getting promoted. No chance.

Again don't listen to me just google it.

If you make $70K in your first year and work 80-100 hours per week consider yourself the worst analyst of all time. You'll get a "fuck you bonus" of $10K and asked to leave the building without returning to your desk.

[polymath]

Kind of a dick response but I suppose that is par for the course in finance. I didn't say anything about base pay being total pay.

Out of the gate, none of the analysts know how much they will be earning on their bonus. Bonus structure is not part of the offer letter and it's a bit taboo to ask about.

Hence the question that I posed to you.

[WestCoast]

^ yeah I just responded to it. Yes I do get annoyed relatively easily when it comes to finance because 99% of people don't know what they are talking about. Also it does get frustrating when the answer can be picked up on google in a quick search. <-- that is more of a Wall Street thing where we make bets on who will get bottom bucket and it's always the first person to ask a question that can be found on a 2 second google search. The idea is this, why would you waste a persons time with a question you can answer yourself. This should apply to everything that is done at work never ask a superior a question you can find yourself within an hour or so or else they will rip off your head and have you on skates for the rest of the month

By asking things that can be found quickly you're implying that your time is more valuable than the person you are asking for help. This is a recipie for political failure in any work environment. If someone did research they would ask "I hear blank and blank is this accurate" now the person knows you tried solving the problem before the question was posed.

So yes basically saying the info is not accurate when it can be found will be interpreted as an insult by anyone who works in the industry.

The range for bonus is generally $50K as the middle and $70-80K for a top tier analyst.

If you're not top tier you're not going to a top hedge fund or top PE fund. Name of the game. Hence why I always hammer the table on job performance over everything in life. If you're going into investment banking to "survive" a few years, you just wasted two years of torture on your body. You go into the job to be ranked in the top 10% or else it is not worth it as a career.

Cold harsh truth when it comes to this biz because that is how it is and why I come off as more of a dick in these types of threads. It is how he industry works. I will tell you anyone you meet who goes in and tries to do the minimum will never make it past year 3. Cut throat industry. Cut throat personalities.

Anyway I think that answered everything.

[polymath]

If 99% of people don't know what they are talking about, why would you expect anyone to trust what they find in a Google search?

Thanks for the answers.