[rekruler]

The question probably sounds stupid but what I mean by it is, how do you find and get involved in intense training and sparring type of martial arts right off the bat, as opposed to paying for a class with old, out of shape dudes receiving light contact instruction and doing hardly any sparring? I'm an almost total neophyte when it comes to MMA, but I am in pretty good shape and I'm looking to get into MMA to actually learn how to fight, not to burn off excess calories like a lot of these "classes" these days.

I know a lot of guys here are into all sorts of martial arts and have even gone to Thailand to train Muay Thai, been in sanctioned fights, etc. So my question is, how do I go about getting into this kind of stuff? I'm located in Chicago currently, so I would expect there should be tons of opportunities. Ideally I'd like to train in both standup and ground game, so elements of Muay Thai and BJJ would be good. How do I find a good gym where I won't simply be paying hundreds of dollars a month and in return get nothing but some cardio?

[dog24]

Im not sure what kind of classes you are talking about. You usually have your first fight when your professor thinks youre ready, not whenever you want to take a beating.
If you find a guy willing to give you private training and doing "intense training" right off the bat, im pretty sure you are gonna get scammed and end up getting injured.
I think that if you take a few classes you will be surprised at how much you have to learn, and how much skill those out of shape guys can have.

[Peregrine]

Google "chicago mma gyms" and you'll find quite a few options. If you want to learn muay thai, go to a muay thai gym. If you want to learn BJJ, do that. If you just want to get wailed on, apparently there is/was a basement fight club in Chicago.

[Edmund Dantes]

It really depends on the gym. Most warehouse gyms are the old-school kind where you pay per month and train with legit fighters. You learn as you go. The facility is shit but you're training with hungry mother fuckers. Check the credentials of the coaches. MMA gyms are turning into McDojos.

The big name gyms are FUCKING RIP-OFFS! All the big-name ones I trained at wanted you to sign up for their cardio classes for a couple of months then "test" to see if you qualify for their fight team. Did I mention they charge a testing fee as well? They have better facilities and nicer with newer students. If the gym has produced champions, they will milk the shit out of it. Hardcore Gym in Athens, GA uses Griffin and Bowles to up their price. American Kickboxing Academy in San Jose is like $300 a month for their entire program of MMA.

So what do you want to do? Self-defense, competition or fitness?

IMO, start off researching MMA. Buy the Fedor MMA book and watch some youtube vids. Get the stance, punches and kicks down (jiu-jitsu needs another person). Find a warehouse gym and take a free class. Find out the credentials of the coach and if all checks out (including the price) sign up.

Also, PM Fisto and see what he has to say. He's a former-pro and I'm just a top-ranked amateur.

[la_mode]

Well you're in Chicago.

Ever heard of Davenport, IA? Under 2 hours from far-west suburbs.

I've known several guys who trained at Miletich. Still considered one of the premier MMA gyms in the world.

[WanderingSoul]

Miletich isn't going to train some newbie off the street unless he's a top prospect coming out of a D1 wrestling program or something like that.

OP, you're gonna have to pay to train, no way around it. No legit coach is going to train some random dude off the street for free unless he adds value to the fight team, I.e. has a solid wrestling or Muay Thai background.

You're also not going to even train with the fight team right off the bat. You're a waste of mat space and time to them.

Go find a legit gym, start training bjj, wrestling and striking, and then tryout for the fight team when you're ready, or they will invite you on.

You will probably be able to get onto the fight team quicker at the small, local type of camps than you will at the well known ones. Though, you may realize that training "MMA" isn't that fuckin easy, and quit after the first class like most people do who want to be "cage fighters".

[Duke Castile]

Rio cracking eggs of reality from his ivory tower in the clouds of Bangkok.

What a dick! Hahaha

[Duke Castile]

Op most gyms will let you come in and have a free lesson or you'll have to pay about 20 bucks.

Just getting "some cardio" is not going to happen if a gym has been around for more than a year or two, even if it's sub par in instruction.

[Veloce]

@Fisto and Rio, for a guy starting out in MMA, what would you recommend as a starting discipline? BJJ seems to be the common consensus. What about boxing?

[Duke Castile]

It really depends on which one you're more interested in. My personal opinion is that you can become proficient in boxing much more quickly than wrestling or BJJ.

[Veloce]

I'm less interested in MMA as a sport and more interested in handling myself in a street fight if it should come to it, I'm leaning toward boxing too. Seems like you'd need years of BJJ training before you could use it in a street fight.

[Peregrine]

I don't know much about MMA, but I can speak to street fighting. Valuable skills/traits in a street fight include willingness to hurt someone (being violent), taking a punch, dealing with the massive adrenal dump before and during, situational awareness (avoiding tunnel vision), and punching hard things without hurting your knuckles. Boxing is better than BJJ in a street fight (three years of training and I've never used the latter except at work where I had a 4 to 1 numerical advantage), but technique can go right out the window after you take a solid hit. Goes double if you're drunk.

Just like most things, the best way to get better at street fighting is actual street fighting. Since that comes with potential social consequences, a solid alternative is fight club-style sparring with close buddies. Preferably with guys that are bigger than you are.

[OGNorCal707]

(12-21-2013 05:47 PM)thedude3737 Wrote:  

I'm less interested in MMA as a sport and more interested in handling myself in a street fight if it should come to it, I'm leaning toward boxing too. Seems like you'd need years of BJJ training before you could use it in a street fight.

If you're mainly interested in street self defense I'd recommend muay thai over boxing or bjj, but they all have their merits. I've been doing muay thai and bjj for about 8 months now and I'd say at least for me the learning curve with bjj is much steeper and takes a lot longer to get good at.

Also not to knock bjj, but the whole effectiveness of the system is based on being on the ground and a lot of bjj guys don't have any standup skills at all. Plus being on the ground and using bjj becomes a lot less effective if you are trying to fight off more than one attacker, if 3 dudes try to jump you outside a bar, the last place you want to be is on the ground trying to submit a guy.

[Duke Castile]

Dude, learn boxing will be your best starting point IMO. You'll learn to throw straight effective punches effortlessly. In a street fight, it's the guy who hits first that wins. Most street fighters will throw one punch, maybe connect and then pause to observe the result. Boxing will teach you to perry or slip that first punch and throw a combination that will end the fight.

[la_mode]

(12-21-2013 05:47 AM)RioNomad Wrote:  

Miletich isn't going to train some newbie off the street unless he's a top prospect coming out of a D1 wrestling program or something like that.

OP, you're gonna have to pay to train, no way around it. No legit coach is going to train some random dude off the street for free unless he adds value to the fight team, I.e. has a solid wrestling or Muay Thai background.

You're also not going to even train with the fight team right off the bat. You're a waste of mat space and time to them.

Go find a legit gym, start training bjj, wrestling and striking, and then tryout for the fight team when you're ready, or they will invite you on.

You will probably be able to get onto the fight team quicker at the small, local type of camps than you will at the well known ones. Though, you may realize that training "MMA" isn't that fuckin easy, and quit after the first class like most people do who want to be "cage fighters".

Anyone can sign up there. You have to realize that MMA is to Iowa what the Packers are to Wisconsin.

[WanderingSoul]

I know anyone can sign up there, it's a business. But good luck being just anyone and getting Pat to train you. You don't just jump into the fight team from day one. Especially at a gym like MFS. MMA gyms segregate their classes. You don't just show up and start training with the pros. Like you even could. You'd get fucking slaughtered at MFS jumping in with the pros. Those dudes are notorious for having brutal sparring sessions and beating the fuck out of new guys who go there.

Dude, I'd go with boxing. Less of a learning curve and sparring builds mental toughness. BJJ does as well, but most schools will be really fuckin patty cake unless you go somewhere like maybe Brazilian Top Team in Long Beach. I've never been there, but BTT should have that Carlson Gracie, old school mentality. Find a gym which realizes takedowns are important, not pulling guard. You want that oldschool Ralph Gracie/Carlson Gracie takedown, smash and pass mentality. Except for, ya know, having Ralph bite your fingernail off of your thumb, or choke you unconscious after you've already tapped and sock you in the face after you wake up. I hear he's calmed down these days though lol.

Boxing will build up your mental confidence quickly. And you'll learn to take a beating.

Imo wrestling is the best base for MMA, but you'll have to learn it at a MMA gym probably. Not many places to learn wrestling outside of the school system.

[Checkmat]

(12-21-2013 05:28 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

It really depends on which one you're more interested in. My personal opinion is that you can become proficient in boxing much more quickly than wrestling or BJJ.

A BJJ black belt that I train with said the same thing the other day. He also said that once you get good at boxing, you can stop doing it and then do it years later and the techniques will still be with you.

Dunno about that. Very little exp with striking personally.

[Checkmat]

(12-21-2013 06:49 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

Dude, learn boxing will be your best starting point IMO. You'll learn to throw straight effective punches effortlessly. In a street fight, it's the guy who hits first that wins. Most street fighters will throw one punch, maybe connect and then pause to observe the result. Boxing will teach you to perry or slip that first punch and throw a combination that will end the fight.

Interesting you brought that up. I just finished reading Watch My Back, the book Roosh recommended which is the memoirs of a British club bouncer. He regales many fights and like 80% of them he wins by throwing a solid right and knocking the guy out instantly.

He'd often follow up with soccer kicks to the head and body or a kick to the head while the guy was on his way to the floor. Good read.

[WanderingSoul]

(12-21-2013 06:20 PM)OGNorCal707 Wrote:  

Also not to knock bjj, but the whole effectiveness of the system is based on being on the ground and a lot of bjj guys don't have any standup skills at all. Plus being on the ground and using bjj becomes a lot less effective if you are trying to fight off more than one attacker, if 3 dudes try to jump you outside a bar, the last place you want to be is on the ground trying to submit a guy.

Not to knock Muay Thai, but the whole effectiveness of the system is based on being on your feet, and a lot of Muay Thai guys don't have any takedown defense at all.

It goes both ways. There's holes in everything. Reality is you need striking, Jiu Jitsu, and wrestling to be a complete fighter. One or two is sufficient for most people though. If you get jumped by three people, striking is better, but you're probably fucked either way.

[Screwston]

I want to take boxing lessons but not sure how to pick one. They're everywhere.

[OGNorCal707]

(12-21-2013 10:21 PM)RioNomad Wrote:  

(12-21-2013 06:20 PM)OGNorCal707 Wrote:  

Also not to knock bjj, but the whole effectiveness of the system is based on being on the ground and a lot of bjj guys don't have any standup skills at all. Plus being on the ground and using bjj becomes a lot less effective if you are trying to fight off more than one attacker, if 3 dudes try to jump you outside a bar, the last place you want to be is on the ground trying to submit a guy.

Not to knock Muay Thai, but the whole effectiveness of the system is based on being on your feet, and a lot of Muay Thai guys don't have any takedown defense at all.

It goes both ways. There's holes in everything. Reality is you need striking, Jiu Jitsu, and wrestling to be a complete fighter. One or two is sufficient for most people though. If you get jumped by three people, striking is better, but you're probably fucked either way.

Yeah you're right and I agree that to be a good fighter you need stand-up and ground skills, but in reality I'd say 90% of fights start standing, unless you're fighting some guy who wrestled in high school or college, or a BJJ guy.

All grapplers say that all fights go to the ground and a lot of them do, but I have seen plenty of street fights that never went to the ground because either one guy got knocked out, the fight got broken up, or neither guy(s) had any ground fighting skills and basically took it back to the feet.

If you are a BJJ guy with no stand up I feel like you really got to be the aggressor and go for a take down and get the fight on the ground ASAP. Plus yeah fighting more than one guy at once will be tough no matter what, but two on one isn't that unlikely of a scenario, and unless you are a sick brown/black belt, your chances of submitting two guys quickly are pretty low. But, hey this is just my opinion, Rio you seem like the resident MMA expert, so take everything I say with a grain of salt.

[WanderingSoul]

I had a big long rant on here somewhere about my problems with the current state of bjj. Against an untrained opponent you don't need striking at all to take them down, but you do need to have some solid takedown skills, especially if they are a big strong guy.

The "90% of all fights end up on the ground." Is nonsense spread by the Gracie family. A lot of rights end up on the ground, but a lot don't. No idea what the percentage is, but a grappler needs to PUT his opponent on the ground, and takedowns are necessary for that. Unfortunately, the large majority of bjj schools don't emphasize that.

Bjj is awesome for a one on one fight, not so awesome otherwise.

I enjoy the passive aggressiveness at the end of your comment as well. Really snuck that one in there like a good jab.

[WanderingSoul]

(12-22-2013 04:59 AM)houston Wrote:  

I want to take boxing lessons but not sure how to pick one. They're everywhere.

Gotta go in and check them out.

Stay away from the fitness boxing classes. They are everywhere and horseshit. If you see a big group of people all shadow boxing and doing pushups, but no one sparring or working defensive drills on the mits, probably cardio boxing. Obviously cardio is important, but so many places only do cardio because thats what the soccer moms want.

Usually the dirtier the gym, the better.

[Screwston]

+1 Rio.

Rio and Fisto - how important is size and height in a fist fight? I remember seeing shorties in school whooping guys who had at least 60 pounds on them and 6 inches in height. Is a bigger, stronger guy with hardly any experience gonna tear up a short boxer? From my experience, bigger guys will pretty much tackle you if they see you're getting the best of them so you really have to end it before it gets to that if you don't wrestle.

[Edmund Dantes]

I'm going to add my opinion since I was that short dude.

Quote:

how important is size and height in a fist fight?

Important but technique trumps it. Most people don't know how to use their size and reach to their advantage.

Quote:

Is a bigger, stronger guy with hardly any experience gonna tear up a short boxer?

Depends on how good that boxer is. If that boxer is a good fighter, hell even a decent amateur boxer, then I would bet my finger on him winning a fight. Competitive amateur boxers have trained out their flinch reflex and can throw a REAL punch. None of that winding up and throwing with all their might with a stiff arm. He can throw non-telegraphed punches, with speed, accuracy and put more power in it by properly using his hips, pivot on his foot, abs, being relaxed, etc.

Not to mention the boxer can take a punch.

Quote:

bigger guys will pretty much tackle you if they see you're getting the best of them so you really have to end it before it gets to that if you don't wrestle.

Depends on the bigger guy. I fought a skinny tall dude who sucker punched me and I sent three punches back in response and knocked his ass down. He got up and rushed me. Due to my wrestling background, I was able to take his back (duck under ) and attempt a throw. I fucked it up by not sweeping his foot. He landed and people broke it up. Minutes later, two of his boys came from behind and grabbed me. The guy came from the front and went to town on my face. I only took ONE good punch. The rest I rolled with the punches but when he doubled up with his left, I rolled into the punch and he cut my pretty face up.

I didn't end the fight when I was supposed to. If I kicked him on the ground, I wouldn't have this fat scar. I had "honor" back then. On top of that, my technique was off. I was so used to fighting guys who were my size so my throw would always work on them but since this bitch had long legs, he was able to regain his footing.

On the other hand, I fought a fat dude. My speed overwhelmed him. I was like a starving dog on a piece of steak. When I landed the first punch, he just shelled up. I just kept punching the fat bastard until someone pulled me off of him.

So the golden rule of street fighting: Hit first, hit hard, and keep hitting.