[Mentavious]

What is considered bullying?

It just seems like everything under the sun is considered.

[Lyokoz]

(11-10-2013 06:26 PM)Enigma Wrote:  

When's the last time y'all were in school? I know some of you dudes are in your 30s and 40s.

This isn't Dazed and Confused

Even when I was in high school and middle school, the kids that fought often got arrested. Doesn't matter who started it.

There was a video that went viral not long ago where a group of kids were ganging up on this fat boy and hitting him in the face. He bodyslammed one of them and walked away but still got suspended (this was in Australia I believe but a similar system exists in the US).

Then you had the parents of the kid that got slammed raising hell.

You have cases where the bully gets his ass whooped and parents want to press charges or sue for injuries.

So it's not really as simple as just fighting back anymore. Now you're forcing kids to choose between getting bullied or getting hit with a criminal record and/or missing school.

I'm not down with the whole cry to teacher shit but you have to look at both sides of the coin. There is a very wide ranging problem with the way children are raised and schooled these days, bullying is just one aspect of it.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Ma...ingADragon

[Vicious]

Enigma has it right. There's no upside to being bullied if you'll be punished for fighting back. Today the game is all about provoking someone to take the first shot so that he'll get to even more trouble.

[NY Digital]

I was bullied, but not terribly so.

Was always kind of introverted and kept to myself, quiet and nice and all.

Got made fun of my accent though at times.

The only time I got bullied seriously was in HS when I was on the Swim team. I was one of the top swimmers
however there were a few guys that made fun of me, and the rest of the team played along. Never got the respect
I deserved, despite winning a lot of 1st and 2nd places for the team.

Would I want some authority figure telling them to not do what they were doing?

No. It'd make everything worse, like I couldn't defend myself. It'd just further isolate me.

Also, I was probably one of the nicest guys and it backfired on me.

Kids should have the freedom to be kids. Bullying happens. Someone may die.(Very RARE). It's life.

However this PC culture always finds ways to make outrages of small events on a micro scale.

When you have the State controlling what your kids can and can not do, then it'll become more and more of a dystopian nanny state.

A strong father figure can solve any case of bullying.

[Agent 47]

Some members bring up self defense, but the sad thing is you can't. Not unless you want to be punished by the School AND the Judicial system. The political correctness is so stupidly high, it's a wonder 2 guys who diss each other don't go the office. Here is one story that happened in high school.

Sophmore year, i had an art class. I didn't look for trouble, so trouble did not look for me. Anyway, we had an assignment to do, which i immediatly got to work on. Later, i hear some laughter in front of me and find out why. Apparently, some asshole thought it would be funny if he drew a caricature of me. I stood up, walked over CALMLY, looked at it, told him to get fucked CALMLY, and ripped the drawing. I went back to my desk and continued to work.

This dumbass gets upset and starts telling THE TEACHER how he is gonna kick my ass. Teacher asks what i did, and i told him exactly what i did.
Teacher decides the best course of action is to call the school officer. We are escorted down to the office, where i am handed a Saturday detention and A CITATION FOR DISRUPTION OF CLASS. To handle this stupid citation, i had to attend a Teenage Court where i was given 42 hours of community service.

Now you tell me if i deserved this shit for standing up for myself...

Idiots...

[thegmanifesto]

(11-11-2013 11:26 AM)Agent 47 Wrote:  

Some members bring up self defense, but the sad thing is you can't. Not unless you want to be punished by the School AND the Judicial system. The political correctness is so stupidly high, it's a wonder 2 guys who diss each other don't go the office. Here is one story that happened in high school.

Sophmore year, i had an art class. I didn't look for trouble, so trouble did not look for me. Anyway, we had an assignment to do, which i immediatly got to work on. Later, i hear some laughter in front of me and find out why. Apparently, some asshole thought it would be funny if he drew a caricature of me. I stood up, walked over CALMLY, looked at it, told him to get fucked CALMLY, and ripped the drawing. I went back to my desk and continued to work.

This dumbass gets upset and starts telling THE TEACHER how he is gonna kick my ass. Teacher asks what i did, and i told him exactly what i did.
Teacher decides the best course of action is to call the school officer. We are escorted down to the office, where i am handed a Saturday detention and A CITATION FOR DISRUPTION OF CLASS. To handle this stupid citation, i had to attend a Teenage Court where i was given 42 hours of community service.

Now you tell me if i deserved this shit for standing up for myself...

Idiots...

Well yeah.

You don't do sh*t during class.

Let me school you guys on how it's done:

You jump the motherf*cker during lunch or after school.

Preferably off school grounds.

On your own terms. You set the stage of the battle and when to fight.

Punch him from behind and keep throwing. Then stomp.

Bully problem solved.

Very Sun Tzu. Before I even knew who Sun Tzu was.

Kids these days...you have to teach them everything.

He who knows when he can fight and when he cannot, will be victorious. - Sun Tzu

[Peregrine]

I like how Handsome Creepy Eel made the distinction between emotional terrorism and light ribbing that is taken as "bullying" by the easily-offended crowd. You can acknowledge that the former is a problem (which I do) without supporting government intervention as a solution (which I don't). Mencken once said, "For every big problem, there's a simple solution which doesn't work."

(11-11-2013 07:08 AM)frenchie Wrote:  

(11-11-2013 05:10 AM)Inspired Wrote:  

I was bullied and I don't think I got anything positive from it.

At least in my case, I was embarrassed to tell my parents, or anyone else about it, so I had to deal with it myself. There can be a lot of shame for the person being bullied.

So what did I do? I fought back, which only happened a few times. I ended up getting in equal trouble as the bullies. After that, I didn't feel like I could fight back so easily.

And the problem was, if I fought back, afterwards I'd have more than one bully try to gang up on me. So fighting back wasn't the deterrent it should have been.

I should have started lifting weights and made myself bigger and stronger. That would have helped probably, but who knows.......

I just think there are a lot of psycho's out there who bully people in extreme ways, that just can't be acceptable or provide any useful purpose.

As far as this football situation goes, people can crack under the pressure. This guy obviously cracked. I think he should have handled it better and tried to fix the situation in house, but let's not forget these are young guys who are learning about life. He probably didn't think he could have handled it in house. I was in a situation like this before too. And looking back, I could have handled everything very effectively, but I didn't because I was young and didn't know better.

Serious question as I don't understand. Why the shame and fear?

I knew I was better than my bullies and everyone else. What happened to you to make you afraid to speak up?

I don't want my children being afraid to speak up and fight back.

I'll take a crack at the question. The shame largely stems from helplessness. You can't tell a teacher because they can't protect you all the time. The bully might get detention, but then he'll know why and you'll get an ass whupping. You can't fight back because you'll probably lose (bullies pick weaker targets) and you'll get punished by the school for fighting. Even if you win the fight, you know he's going to get his friends and they'll all beat the shit out of you together. Then, you have to hide the beating from your parents because, if your parents find out, they'll probably talk to the school. When that happens, refer back to why you can't tell a teacher. And as a kid, you don't have the life perspective to realize that your shitty situation is only temporary. There's no light at the end of the tunnel. Just another school day where you can get fucked or... you can get fucked. Helplessness is the reason why some people experience PTSD after getting mugged. I think there's an innate shame in being unable (or thinking that you're unable) to help yourself as a man.

One day, I decided to fight back in high school. Gave a pretty good account of myself too even though I was outnumbered. I was proud of myself. What did the school do? In-school suspension for fighting. I refused to go on principle because I couldn't believe that I was getting punished for self defense. The automatic punishment for skipping in-school suspension was out-of-school suspension (as if that makes any sense whatsoever). Eventually, I was expelled. The principal went so far as to tell my dad that I would never amount to anything. Jokes on him though, I'm doing great now.

[Volk]

Where I grew up, the only way to defend yourself was by getting even worse friends. Lets say somebody picked on you and you jumped the motherfucker : Now you were marked. Next time whenever you least expected it, you would get clubbed from behind by 8 or 10 kids and it would be at least a trip to the ER. It's not surprising that nowadays the gang issues are rotting Colombia from inside out.

I do miss the full blown fights between 30 and 30 when all the little 'gangs' tried to pick on each other. What I don't miss was this lowlife who got into the school because some benefactor wanted to give him an opportunity, there was nothing to do with him. Eventually he got expelled after slashing somebody's arm with his knife. After expelled he took onto assaulting the kids outside for money, until somebody's dad put a price on his head and was killed by a hitman 3 years after expelled.

[The Beast1]

(11-11-2013 12:56 PM)Peregrine Wrote:  

I like how Handsome Creepy Eel made the distinction between emotional terrorism and light ribbing that is taken as "bullying" by the easily-offended crowd. You can acknowledge that the former is a problem (which I do) without supporting government intervention as a solution (which I don't). Mencken once said, "For every big problem, there's a simple solution which doesn't work."

(11-11-2013 07:08 AM)frenchie Wrote:  

(11-11-2013 05:10 AM)Inspired Wrote:  

I was bullied and I don't think I got anything positive from it.

At least in my case, I was embarrassed to tell my parents, or anyone else about it, so I had to deal with it myself. There can be a lot of shame for the person being bullied.

So what did I do? I fought back, which only happened a few times. I ended up getting in equal trouble as the bullies. After that, I didn't feel like I could fight back so easily.

And the problem was, if I fought back, afterwards I'd have more than one bully try to gang up on me. So fighting back wasn't the deterrent it should have been.

I should have started lifting weights and made myself bigger and stronger. That would have helped probably, but who knows.......

I just think there are a lot of psycho's out there who bully people in extreme ways, that just can't be acceptable or provide any useful purpose.

As far as this football situation goes, people can crack under the pressure. This guy obviously cracked. I think he should have handled it better and tried to fix the situation in house, but let's not forget these are young guys who are learning about life. He probably didn't think he could have handled it in house. I was in a situation like this before too. And looking back, I could have handled everything very effectively, but I didn't because I was young and didn't know better.

Serious question as I don't understand. Why the shame and fear?

I knew I was better than my bullies and everyone else. What happened to you to make you afraid to speak up?

I don't want my children being afraid to speak up and fight back.

I'll take a crack at the question. The shame largely stems from helplessness. You can't tell a teacher because they can't protect you all the time. The bully might get detention, but then he'll know why and you'll get an ass whupping. You can't fight back because you'll probably lose (bullies pick weaker targets) and you'll get punished by the school for fighting. Even if you win the fight, you know he's going to get his friends and they'll all beat the shit out of you together. Then, you have to hide the beating from your parents because, if your parents find out, they'll probably talk to the school. When that happens, refer back to why you can't tell a teacher. And as a kid, you don't have the life perspective to realize that your shitty situation is only temporary. There's no light at the end of the tunnel. Just another school day where you can get fucked or... you can get fucked. Helplessness is the reason why some people experience PTSD after getting mugged. I think there's an innate shame in being unable (or thinking that you're unable) to help yourself as a man.

One day, I decided to fight back in high school. Gave a pretty good account of myself too even though I was outnumbered. I was proud of myself. What did the school do? In-school suspension for fighting. I refused to go on principle because I couldn't believe that I was getting punished for self defense. The automatic punishment for skipping in-school suspension was out-of-school suspension (as if that makes any sense whatsoever). Eventually, I was expelled. The principal went so far as to tell my dad that I would never amount to anything. Jokes on him though, I'm doing great now.

This is a perspective I have never been able to grasp. I have always been future oriented so the temporary pain of the present was always easy to over come.


You know, I'll say it now I would never put down my son (or daughter) if he got into a fight for defending himself. I'd need to hear the story and tell him to not go looking for trouble. But still, defending yourself is so fundamental to the fiber of our being that

I got into a fight at school when I was a junior. We were all in the locker room and the guys would all threaten to whip each other with these rat tails (spun up towels). I always had a belt with me and we would always get close but never actually hit each other. Fair enough, they would bug me but it seemed in good fun so I jested along too.

One day, this kid came up and rammed me into a locker after one of our rat tail vs towel. While I was taller, I weighted a pathetic 150lbs at 6ft tall. He was a shorter and stockier guy with much bigger muscles. So a fisticuffs would not have ended well for me.

I went to an old school and we had these retro 1950s style lockers with an odd type of hook on them. I had a decent cut down my back and it made me so angry that I pushed him down on the ground, shouting all sorts of curses, and proceeded to whip him down the back with my belt. He scurried away.

Afterwards, I was immediately more respected at school. I felt I acted in self defense (well over kill) and responded to the threat appropriately. I had orchestra and theater friends who all became distinctly scared of me. No one knew what was going to set me off from bubbly mild mannered frenchie to this screaming lunatic who beats down people with belts My social standing at school improved too. By the end of my senior year, I was sitting with the popular kids and going to some crazy parties.

This was back in 2007. I have faith there are still other boys out there like me.

No boy should ever feel helpless. To me, the post punishment of decking someone in the face can be worth it to me depending on how much I have to lose. Had I gotten in trouble I would have been suspended, but life always goes on. Not to mention I was a poster child for a good student. I never got in trouble and the administration used my school activities as selling points for open houses.

To this day though, the benefits of working with society keep me in check just barely enough to not do anything crazy. I would have to get pretty bad for the revolutionary in me to break out.

[Aliblahba]

   

[BlurredSevens]

I endured severe bullying in middle school and high school, to the point where I contemplated dropping out and/or hurting myself. Kind of fucked up to think about now.

The funny thing is, not one person ever told me: "Blurred, they bully you because you're insecure. But you don't have anything to be insecure about in the first place."

I never had that perspective until much later, when I figured it out for myself. And now I'm slaying pussy and making bank. But all those years of suffering? Didn't help me "become a man" or otherwise influence my success. They were just shitty years.

So I think "Anti-Bullying" programs are kind of misguided. Instead maybe they should be teaching kids the basics of personal independence, discipline, and self-improvement. That would have helped me deal with the bullies on my own.

[thegmanifesto]

(11-11-2013 02:02 PM)BlurredSevens Wrote:  

I endured severe bullying in middle school and high school, to the point where I contemplated dropping out and/or hurting myself. Kind of fucked up to think about now.

The funny thing is, not one person ever told me: "Blurred, they bully you because you're insecure. But you don't have anything to be insecure about in the first place."

To the guys that got relentlessly bullied when they were younger:

Did you guys have fathers around?

[Agent 47]

To the guys that got relentlessly bullied when they were younger:

Did you guys have fathers around?
[/quote]

I did, but he traveled ALOT for his job. My father always told me to stand up for myself and i did on occasion. Hit one guy in the head with my binder, pushed another down the bleachers when he pushed me into some lockers the day before. The thing is, fighting back has too many risks nowadays. The system is quick to label you whatever they deem fit.

[BlurredSevens]

(11-11-2013 02:18 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

To the guys that got relentlessly bullied when they were younger:

Did you guys have fathers around?

I did, yeah. I grew up with a successful father who was respected and looked up to in the community. He was very much involved in my life growing up, same as my mother.

I think this was the problem though. I never brought up bullying with my father because I didn't want to disappoint him, or have him think his son was a failure. He worked hard to raise me so I didn't want to let him down.

Sounds elementary I know, but we're talking ages 10-15 here when I was simply a product of mainstream American education, and not thinking for myself yet.

[Que enspastic]

In the UK you just get viciously stabbed a few times and that's it.

[Peregrine]

(11-11-2013 01:07 PM)frenchie Wrote:  

This is a perspective I have never been able to grasp. I have always been future oriented so the temporary pain of the present was always easy to over come.

That probably would have helped me. Hope is such a powerful force that it made the difference in whether someone survived the Holocaust (refer to Man's Search for Meaning). Unfortunately, I wasn't able to/couldn't imagine a better future. In my mind, my entire life would suck. Typical short-sightedness of a child, but it was all I had known.

Quote:

You know, I'll say it now I would never put down my son (or daughter) if he got into a fight for defending himself. I'd need to hear the story and tell him to not go looking for trouble. But still, defending yourself is so fundamental to the fiber of our being that

I thought my dad was going to belt me really good when I was first suspended. I'd gotten it for far less. But thankfully, he took the time to ask me why, believed me when I told him, and said I did the right thing.

If your kid leans towards the nerdier side and you want to help him out, show him Paul Graham's "Why Nerds are Unpopular". Wish that was available to me when I was in middle school.

gmanifesto Wrote:

To the guys that got relentlessly bullied when they were younger:

Did you guys have fathers around?

Like Agent 47, mine was always out of town on business. When he was around, he ran me down a lot because he was stressed from work. Didn't help that he also had poor social calibration.

[DVY]

Got bullied a lot as a kid (back when I was a lot smaller than my classmates).

4th grade, recess, some f*ck pushed me for the 4758th time and I just snapped. I slapped him in the face and when he went to punch me, i grabbed his hand and bite him as hard as I could. I got suspended for 3 days- spent it happy as shit watching TV at home. We actually ended up cool after about 2 weeks. I think i gave him one of my oreos and we made up...

6th grade- new school. Bullied. Just ignored it. 8th graders are too big to fight.

9th grade- Bullied again. Ignored it and rocked out all my exams. Then let the bully copy off me and get a B-. Hes still a buddy of mine. Really mellowed out too.
- Somebody threw an apple at me. Hit me in the face. I got so mad that i grabbed that cat and pushed him into the rose-bushes, then ran away immediately after. School staff run into the "fight" and ask me if I am ok. Baby-face pays off for once!!!! Kid avoided me for the rest of the year.

11th grade- grew 9 inches in a year. Bullying stopped 100%.

[EisenBarde]

This wasn't a problem back when families were like 8 kids deep.

Mess with the scrawny runt freshman and you had to face his older brothers and cousins.

I honestly think that the breakdown of the nuclear family is a big contributor to people feeling worse off with bullying these days. That support structure just isn't there anymore and people are legitimately being cut off from the rest of society. It's no coincidence that Adam Lanza was "raised" by a single mother.

Growing up, I had at least 40 people who kept my behavior in check and would watch my back if I needed it. It isn't natural to protect those who aren't in your "tribe".

[Mage]

(11-11-2013 02:18 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

To the guys that got relentlessly bullied when they were younger:
Did you guys have fathers around?

I did, but he was fat. He worked a lot and participated very little in my upbringing. He wouldn't be able to throw a punch to save his life himself, much less to protect me and I knew it right from age of 5 or so. I didn't have a strong image to associate myself to. I felt weak and bullies sensed it and capitalized on that.

The bullying stopped somewhere at age of 14 when I found other male role models trough movies and literature and my first real life male mentor it was my new gymnastics teacher who during sports classes allowed me to skip playing team sports with other boys where I was neglected at best and bullied at worst and where ball was never passed to me and I was just uselessly hanging around. He allowed me to spend solitary time in the weight room, he thought me to do pullups and bench press. I soon grew some muscle and became stronger then most of my classmates. It was something unbelievable to me because being physically weak was put so deep in my subconscious that I couldn't believe that I can be strong. it gave me great confidence and bullying stopped. I am very grateful to that old man, he was a true Teacher who cared for students, not just a system functionary like most education system workers.

[InternationPlayboy]

I don't think bullying has gone overboard in America, I just think people have gotten too soft. Sometimes people do go a little too far, yes, but I feel for the most part this whole anti bullying thing is parents being overly protected and kids being too soft. If you're getting bullied, take some boxing or karate lessons and learn to kick your bullies ass.

[Quintus Curtius]

This is a tough question to answer...is it any worse than when I was growing up (i.e., with social media, maybe kids more violent now, etc.), or is it just that society as a whole is more soft? You can make good arguments both ways.
I think it is a bit of both. Social media shaming is defiintely more prevalent now, since we didn´t have Facebook, Twitter, and all that back in the day. But this seems to affect girls more than boys. I don´t think guys care as much about nude pics of themselves showing up on social media. Girls definitely do.
But there is definitely a oversensitivity in today´s society. You can´t even look at someone without some pussy whining about it.
Good debate...this is a good thread.

[Remington]

(11-11-2013 02:18 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

(11-11-2013 02:02 PM)BlurredSevens Wrote:  

I endured severe bullying in middle school and high school, to the point where I contemplated dropping out and/or hurting myself. Kind of fucked up to think about now.

The funny thing is, not one person ever told me: "Blurred, they bully you because you're insecure. But you don't have anything to be insecure about in the first place."

To the guys that got relentlessly bullied when they were younger:

Did you guys have fathers around?

My father always told me to wait for the guy to swing first. After that, kick his ass.

It would be in self-defense. My father didn't care if it got me in trouble, just as long as I stood up for myself and didn't take shit from anybody. Smart man.

[Aliblahba]

My pops grew up hard, and was not someone to fuck with even through his mid 50's. He taught me to defend myself and other against bullies, and would have kicked the shit outta me if I was the aggressor. Ironically most of those bullies in high school are either dead or found religion quick. Karma is a bitch.

Bullying is a complicated subject, as kids now pull the victim card, when in fact they had something to do with instigating it. But bullying and hazing never made me a better man.

[RockHard]

(11-12-2013 09:27 AM)Remington Wrote:  

It would be in self-defense. My father didn't care if it got me in trouble, just as long as I stood up for myself and didn't take shit from anybody. Smart man.

Problem pointed out above is these days, kids get arrested. I graduated HS back in the mid-80s, and metal detectors in schools were unheard of, let alone cops. I think maybe some of the inner city schools had cops.

It's also true that there's definitely a helicopter parenting problem - parents just don't let kids work shit out on their own.

As far as the Miami thing, that's hard. You've got a lot of media guys (and women) who've never been in a locker room beyond high school trying to say what's appropriate. I think a lot of it is Incognito had a bad rep as a dirty player already and people want to believe the worst about him. Seriously, I've seen major media label him a "bad human being". Really? I was reading all these stories about how Incognito was bullied as a kid and found himself through football, but that's all disappeared now because the narrative is about Richie Incognito, the horrible person who bullies rich black people.

[The Beast1]

Apparently bullying makes for riskier sex lives:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/1...S220131112