[Bad Hussar]

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013...-trillion/


So, two Canadian finance geeks got together to calculate the value of a unification between the United States and Canada using typical mergers and acquisitions methodology. They used variables like population, GDP, energy reserves, arable land and so on. The upshot was:

-In the event of a merger, and assuming "one person, one vote" in the new country, Canada would need to be paid out US$ 17 trillion.
- This translates to nearly US$ 500,000 per Canadian.

I know this idea of the US and Canada merging has been floated before, especially when Quebec seceding was a real possibility some decades ago, but this is the first I have heard about it in recent years.

What do the Americans and Canadians on the board think about the wisdom and probability of a merging of the two countries? For my part, I don't think the countries and people are all that different (saying this this really irks a lot of Canadians by the way) and wouldn't be completely against the idea. Especially if there was $500,000 in the deal...

[samsamsam]

Nope, I like visiting Canada. Would hate for it to be more like America.

[RexImperator]

If global warming predictions are accurate surely US agribusiness will have it's eye on land in the Canadian plains and the large fresh water supply in the coming decades.

I wouldn't expect a formal merger but something more like the EU.

[Hencredible Casanova]

(10-01-2013 01:20 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  

Nope, I like visiting Canada. Would hate for it to be more like America.

Same here. I like Canada. The US tried annexing them in the early days of the republic but that didn't work out so well when the Brits returned to successfully defend them (War of 1812). The status quo seems to be working out quite well. Canada spends hardly anything on defense and bilateral trade is solid.

[Tex Pro]

(10-01-2013 01:10 PM)Bad Hussar Wrote:  

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013...-trillion/


So, two Canadian finance geeks got together to calculate the value of a unification between the United States and Canada using typical mergers and acquisitions methodology. They used variables like population, GDP, energy reserves, arable land and so on. The upshot was:

-In the event of a merger, and assuming "one person, one vote" in the new country, Canada would need to be paid out US$ 17 trillion.
- This translates to nearly US$ 500,000 per Canadian.

I know this idea of the US and Canada merging has been floated before, especially when Quebec seceding was a real possibility some decades ago, but this is the first I have heard about it in recent years.

What do the Americans and Canadians on the board think about the wisdom and probability of a merging of the two countries? For my part, I don't think the countries and people are all that different (saying this this really irks a lot of Canadians by the way) and wouldn't be completely against the idea. Especially if there was $500,000 in the deal...

The cultures and political systems are actually quite different between the USA and Canada. I don't think it would work, to be honest.

Also, Canada is doing great economically. It now has a higher per capita GDP than the USA, so why would it want to merge anyway?

[Bad Hussar]

(10-01-2013 01:25 PM)RexImperator Wrote:  

If global warming predictions are accurate surely US agribusiness will have it's eye on land in the Canadian plains and the large fresh water supply in the coming decades.

I wouldn't expect a formal merger but something more like the EU.

Well, we have Nafta, which was supposedly a mini EU, at least as far as trade goes. But my experience is that both the US and Canada are still very protective of their own interests and try to thwart Nafta at every turn. Canadian federal officials will often holdup goods at the border for example, massively disrupting the supply chain for no good reason.The US also limits the number of Canadians who can work in various jobs in the US despite the existence of the T1 visa.

In my opinion Mexico being a signatory of Nafta has also dragged down the deal since Mexico's economy on a per capita basis is much smaller than that of the US and Canada. I think a new deal between the US and Canada would have a much better chance of success.

[calculus]

I couldn't think of a worse decision for Canadian voters to make. In fact, I predict Canada closes its border to the US within a decade, when Uncle Scam starts lobbing threats to share their fresh H20. We will be the new Mexico. (I shouldn't say "we", I won't be here.)

[Bad Hussar]

(10-01-2013 01:36 PM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  

(10-01-2013 01:10 PM)Bad Hussar Wrote:  

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013...-trillion/


So, two Canadian finance geeks got together to calculate the value of a unification between the United States and Canada using typical mergers and acquisitions methodology. They used variables like population, GDP, energy reserves, arable land and so on. The upshot was:

-In the event of a merger, and assuming "one person, one vote" in the new country, Canada would need to be paid out US$ 17 trillion.
- This translates to nearly US$ 500,000 per Canadian.

I know this idea of the US and Canada merging has been floated before, especially when Quebec seceding was a real possibility some decades ago, but this is the first I have heard about it in recent years.

What do the Americans and Canadians on the board think about the wisdom and probability of a merging of the two countries? For my part, I don't think the countries and people are all that different (saying this this really irks a lot of Canadians by the way) and wouldn't be completely against the idea. Especially if there was $500,000 in the deal...

The cultures and political systems are actually quite different between the USA and Canada. I don't think it would work, to be honest.

Also, Canada is doing great economically. It now has a higher per capita GDP than the USA, so why would it want to merge anyway?

Ja, that's were the $17 trillion comes in, which may be the biggest obstacle to any deal.

I know a lot of people, certainly a lot of Canadians, think that the cultures are very different, but I'm not so sure myself. I am Canadian, but did not grow up there (and live out of the country right now) so have a bit of an outsiders perspective. To me Canadians insisting on how different they are from Americans reminds me of the Dutch and the Flemish who supposedly hate each other, while to any sane outsider they may as well be the same people. The "narcissism of small differences" Freud called it.

[elabayarde]

(10-01-2013 01:31 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

(10-01-2013 01:20 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  

Nope, I like visiting Canada. Would hate for it to be more like America.

Same here. I like Canada. The US tried annexing them in the early days of the republic but that didn't work out so well when the Brits returned to successfully defend them (War of 1812). The status quo seems to be working out quite well. Canada spends hardly anything on defense and bilateral trade is solid.

Are you guys talking about Anglo Canada? I havent been outside of Quebec, is it worth a run, and where would u guys recommend.

[Architekt]

Americans don't drink milk out of bags - It'll never happen.

[The Lizard of Oz]

Canada is not going anywhere, if we need it we'll just come and take it.

It's like a big plain farm girl with big tits and a big pink-holed butt that you've never gotten around to but you know you'll fuck her one day. For now you just leave her in peace to milk the cows...

[Wadsworth]

I call bullshit. Canada and the U.S. are dependent on each other. If the U.S. goes down the tubes Canada won't be far behind.

[scotian]

Right wing Americans wouldn't like it too much as the USA would suddenly have about 34 million extra Democrat voters.

[The Lizard of Oz]

(10-01-2013 10:33 PM)scotian Wrote:  

Right wing Americans wouldn't like it too much as the USA would suddenly have about 34 million extra Democrat voters.

Who said you guys get to vote?

[Matt Forney]

What year are these guys living in? 1999?

Right now, the national security state has completely destroyed the long-standing friendship and open travel between the U.S. and Canada. Pre-9/11, you could cross into Canada from the U.S. (or vice versa) without a passport, without even presenting yourself to customs in many cases (if you lived in a cross-border town like Stanstead, Quebec/Derby Line, Vermont, or used a rural road). Nobody on either side of the border gave a crap, and life was good.

Now? Try crossing the border by land if you enjoy torture. You can have a spotless record and all of your documentation ready for the border agents and the CBSA and CBP will STILL subject you to humiliating interrogations, cross-examining your entire life history, searching your car, rifling through your phone's SD card and more. Even if you're a citizen of the country in question, you're not safe from the predations of your country's border agency: here's a recent example. The Internet is absolutely littered with CBSA and CBP horror stories.

This is all to protect against "terrorism" and illegal entry. What bullshit. None of the glorified mall cops (no, seriously; the kinds of people who end up in the CBSA do so because they failed to qualify for either the military or the RCMP, and the same goes for the CBP) who are entrusted with Canadian and American border security have stopped a single terrorist attack. As for illegal entry, there's zero incentive for it in either direction considering that America and Canada are at the same level of economic development.

All these clowns do is get paid $50,000 a year to harass and humiliate people legally.

A merger between the U.S. and Canada is a dumb idea, but even if it were a good one and assuming you could get a significant number of people in both countries to back it, the CBSA, CBP and other sociopathic, superfluous border agencies will fight it tooth and nail. Anything to preserve their power, anything to allow them to keep abusing hapless businessmen and tourists while protected by the law.

Personally, I'd like to see an open borders agreement between the U.S. and Canada, where Americans and Canadians can live and work in each others countries without any restrictions, similar to the arrangement between Australia and New Zealand. In fact, the U.S. and Canada is probably the only place on Earth where an open border policy would actually work as intended: both countries are at the same level of development and both are culturally similar yet distinct enough to remain separate entities (most Canadians like being Canadian, and Americans like being American).

It'll likely never happen, so I'll settle for the alternative: the pre-9/11 border arrangement, where you can travel to Canada (or to the U.S.) with just your driver's license, and where customs largely operates on the honor system. If you think a merger between the U.S. and Canada is a good idea, returning to this state of affairs is mandatory. No getting around it.

[Screwston]

Isnt it hard to visit Canada if you have ANY sort of record? Even for a 3rd degree misdemeanor or something insignificant.

[Easy E]

(10-01-2013 10:50 PM)houston Wrote:  

Isnt it hard to visit Canada if you have ANY sort of record? Even for a 3rd degree misdemeanor or something insignificant.

Yes, although I heard they were going to try to make if more lenient for DUIs. I am not sure if this happened. The USA and Canada share the NCIC information, so if you have anything on your record, expect a hassle at least or being barred from entry at worst...With that most likely result ending up you being barred from entry.

[TheSlayer]

Fuck that, I hope it never happens. I like America but the US of Amerida is not a good idea, at least not for Canada.

Listen the truth is Canada is 100% dependent on US for its economy. Of course, we got that oil money in Alberta but around 75% of Canada's exports end up in the US. Before the financial crash in 2008 that number used to be in the mid-80s. As America goes, so does Canada. You guys are the main reason why Canada can get away with spending next to nothing on military and partly because we don't like to go into other countries.

Another thing that Americans don't know is that the Conservatives (the Republicans) here are more "lefty" than the Dems. The Dems are a little more right-wing than Cons here and our Libs are more center-left. Our Cons support our taxpayer funded health care, the abortion issue is pretty dead here, and even the gays are allowed to be married. As Scotian pointed out, even right-wing Canadians would be voting for Democrats. America's right and left operates on a different scale than the rest of the world.

As to MattF's point, he is absolutely right. I would like more open borders too. Canadians and Americans don't have any incentives to illegally immigrate and the economies are pretty similar (though Canada is doing just a bit better). I must say so far my experience crossing the border has been pretty smooth (touch-wood). No harassment, no hassles, no drama. I have heard the horror stories from Canadians too who were treated like shit border agents coming back into Canada.

I do think in the future the US will press a Canada little more given that it is projected you guys will be running out of fresh water and Canada has tons of it. It wouldn't surprise me though in if 50 years from now the US just annexes Canada. That will probably result in a bitter fight which Canada will lose brutally but what do you expect?

[presidentcarter]

(10-01-2013 10:58 PM)Easy E Wrote:  

(10-01-2013 10:50 PM)houston Wrote:  

Isnt it hard to visit Canada if you have ANY sort of record? Even for a 3rd degree misdemeanor or something insignificant.

Yes, although I heard they were going to try to make if more lenient for DUIs. I am not sure if this happened. The USA and Canada share the NCIC information, so if you have anything on your record, expect a hassle at least or being barred from entry at worst...With that most likely result ending up you being barred from entry.

I've heard of ppl that have a couple..scuffs..on their record that have been to Canada without hassle. Probably weren't serious enough.

[Easy E]

TheSlayer,

Canuckastan will never join the USA. The culture and political systems are just too different between us.

As for the USA annexing Canuckastan, yeah right. In 50 years, America will no longer be a superpower. If the time ever comes that the USA tried to annex Canuckastan, all the Canucks would have to do is run to China (which will be an empire by then) and promise to "suck its dick" (metaphorically speaking) for protection.

[TheSlayer]

(10-01-2013 11:12 PM)Easy E Wrote:  

TheSlayer,

Canuckastan will never join the USA. The culture and political systems are just too different between us.

As for the USA annexing Canuckastan, yeah right. In 50 years, America will no longer be a superpower. If the time ever come that the USA tried to annex Canuckastan, all the Canucks would have to do is run to China (which will be an empire by then) and promise to suck its dick for protection.

Where did I say Canada will join the USA? I know we won't, at least not willingly.

There is a good chance that the USA is not the superpower in 50 years from now but I think it will still be a military powerhouse. Annexing Canada for the US is pretty easy, man. The geography favors it and the proximity makes it easy for the US to just walk in. Who the hell is gonna stop you and with what? Just walk right over the Peace Bridge into Fort Erie, Ontario and it's game over . Or even better just walk over Rainbow Bridge over Niagra.

[Easy E]

(10-01-2013 11:15 PM)TheSlayer Wrote:  

(10-01-2013 11:12 PM)Easy E Wrote:  

TheSlayer,

Canuckastan will never join the USA. The culture and political systems are just too different between us.

As for the USA annexing Canuckastan, yeah right. In 50 years, America will no longer be a superpower. If the time ever come that the USA tried to annex Canuckastan, all the Canucks would have to do is run to China (which will be an empire by then) and promise to suck its dick for protection.

Where did I say Canada will join the USA? I know we won't, at least not willingly.

There is a good chance that the USA is not the superpower in 50 years from now but I think it will still be a military powerhouse. Annexing Canada for the US is pretty easy, man. The geography favors it and the proximity makes it easy for the US to just walk in. Who the hell is gonna stop you and with what? Just walk right over the Peace Bridge into Fort Erie, Ontario and it's game over . Or even better just walk over Rainbow Bridge over Niagra.

Maybe I overestimated the resistance that you Canucks would provide

If that is the case, then we should invade now...while there would still be no one to stop us. Welcome to America, Slayer:

[Therapsid]

I'd rather see the U.S. split up into several states, or even 50 independent nation-states, before it annexes Canada like the war hawks of the War of 1812 aspired for.

This country has become too large, too unwieldy, too diverse, too full of competing economic and political elites to function as a single extensive republic. The question at the founding about whether this country would be too large for a representative government can today, more than two centuries later, be reasonably answered with "no".

[TheSlayer]

(10-01-2013 11:22 PM)Easy E Wrote:  

(10-01-2013 11:15 PM)TheSlayer Wrote:  

(10-01-2013 11:12 PM)Easy E Wrote:  

TheSlayer,

Canuckastan will never join the USA. The culture and political systems are just too different between us.

As for the USA annexing Canuckastan, yeah right. In 50 years, America will no longer be a superpower. If the time ever come that the USA tried to annex Canuckastan, all the Canucks would have to do is run to China (which will be an empire by then) and promise to suck its dick for protection.

Where did I say Canada will join the USA? I know we won't, at least not willingly.

There is a good chance that the USA is not the superpower in 50 years from now but I think it will still be a military powerhouse. Annexing Canada for the US is pretty easy, man. The geography favors it and the proximity makes it easy for the US to just walk in. Who the hell is gonna stop you and with what? Just walk right over the Peace Bridge into Fort Erie, Ontario and it's game over . Or even better just walk over Rainbow Bridge over Niagra.

Maybe I overestimated the resistance that you Canucks would provide

If that is the case, then we should invade now...while there would still be no one to stop us. Welcome to America, Slayer:

Haha...there will be resistance but as I said in my earlier post it will be a brutal loss for Canada. What are we gonna resist with? Our 10 tanks and 2 fighter jets lol?

USA can invade anytime and there will never be anyone to stop you.

If I become an American does that mean I lose my healthcare benefits?

[Easy E]

(10-01-2013 11:23 PM)Therapsid Wrote:  

I'd rather see the U.S. split up into several states, or even 50 independent nation-states, before it annexes Canada like the war hawks of the War of 1812 aspired for.

This country has become too large, too unwieldy, too diverse, too full of competing economic and political elites to function as a single extensive republic. The question at the founding about whether this country would be too large for a representative government can today, more than two centuries later, be reasonably answered with "no".

This is probably what is going to happen or at least some states will attempt it, but I have a feeling the outcome will be the same as the last time it was tried (see American Civil War).