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Military Intervention in Syria.
08-28-2013, 02:36 AM
Have to say, the amount of conspiracy vomit seemingly educated people are eager to gobble up never ceases to amaze me.
No one wants to get involved in Syria. It's a powder keg and we've had enough costly inteventions in muslim countries recently to know the ROI is not worth the trouble. These guys never get their shit together even after you point them in the right direction, give them a bunch of money and show great leniency. That ship has sailed.
Regardless, some shit you just can't let slide, and willfully using nerve gas against civilians is not on. And it shouldn't be. I don't know where you guys grew up but my grandfather and great-uncles all went to war over tyrants comitting genocide. What's changed? Did you see all those suffering children? Do you think they're plastic dolls?
Have we become so afraid to offend the Russians and Chinese that we're not going to stand up for what we believe in and enforce our bounderies? Regardless of what the west does these days half of our own population is always blaming ourselves for action as well as inaction. If anything, that is a tell-tale sign of a declining hegemony. But until we fully get there, I'm in favour of sending an unambiguous message to those who did this.
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08-28-2013, 03:46 AM
I believe what I deem to be believable and what appears plausible to me given the often times limited amount of information provided.
At times I consider, exactly which conspiracy theory out of the many I've had to be subjected to and lectured about by educated people at dinner parties in the past 15 years has proven itself to be even remotely substantial? All about establishing permanent bases in Iraq and Afghanistan? Securing all the oil? (the emergence of fracking kinda puts a damper on the whole oil angle don't it?). Israelis and CIA blowing up the twin towers? CIA controls Al Qaida?
So here we go again, the US has given nerve gas to terrorists to justify getting involved in a mess they don't really want to get involved in ... but for better to wage war in Iran in a few years to come. Ohkay.
I say wait for the intelligence report to come out. I'm pretty sure neither Obama nor Cameron or Hollande would come out with such strong soundbites if they weren't sure. They probably caught the missiles being launched on Satelite or something. You don't risk your political future on something like this. Cameron wants to run again. Nothings going to happen before Saturday anyway. Thursday the house of commons will vote on this, Friday is the holy muslim day, so Saturday or Sunday it is.
What's remarkable about all this stuff is not us being doubtful of our own media and politicians, that's fine, likely even justified, but the willingness of so many of us to always rather believe in comical ali or ghadafis spokesman has to be concerning.
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08-28-2013, 04:13 AM
I dunno - we've had pretty great contrast in policy with past presidents. Bush was a useful idiot guided by shortsighted principle, while Obama (who I believe is highly intelligent, despite his actions) simply maximized his persona and exploited the natural senses of greed, envy, and sloth of the lower-class American electorate in order to win the presidency.
Bet your ass Obama did his homework - through a "red pill" lens, you can clearly see he researched human psychology, sociology, modern history, and marketing/advertising concepts to become successful. Even his election logo was brilliant in design (e.g. the golden arches of McDonalds; it has a psychological effect)
As much as I believe we need a libertarian in office to dismantle the current welfare/surveillance state, it's naive to think one can be elected in the first place. People are stupid, that's a universal truth; there will always be white trash, black trash, Hispanic trash, etc. (not to mention our pampered generation of college grad "feel good" liberals) that are so self-absorbed they'll vote for any politician that promises them something.
Now we're in the "war" phase of our history, where the war on women.. war on christianity.. etc. are so sociologically powerful, anyone fired up enough under those false pretenses dictates who gets elected. Imagine if a mainstream candidate ran on a platform of the "war against men" - do you believe that we, as men deeply concerned with the effects of feminism and erosion of mens rights, could objectively vet him?
Every person has a cause, be it religion, political activism, work/career ambition, or even a hobby. The causes cherished by conservatives and/or libertarians are no longer relevant to a younger generation that simply doesn't know any better. Our future generation is more fired up by racial/gender activism than by a direct encroachment on our civil liberties or misguided foreign policy.
Syria is proof of that.
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08-28-2013, 06:48 AM
Chemical weapons or not (with no proof thus far), how does a country allied with military forces that have used depleted uranium shells, white phosphorus and has killed hundreds of thousands in a war that had no legal backing have the moral authority to do anything?
International Law is for foreigners.
This is Iraq 1991 and 2003 all over again. Here are some pictures of dead children (ignore the pictures of dead children WE killed). Let's go to war.
Just sickening.
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08-28-2013, 07:39 AM
... international law... sadly, no one actually adheres to it. Does China (uh, cough, Tibet)? How about Russians little adventure in Georgia in 2008? Chechnya? Abkhazia? When government leaders talk about international law they are primarily concerned with legal consequences within their own country. Will I be impeached if I do this? No, ok, good to go.
The war is already happening. It's been going on for over two years. Cruise missiles won't change that.
In the cold light of day, there's a much stronger moral case for a military intervention here than in 2003, where the reasons, as we all know were very very flimsy. There's no binding morality son. It's just the way of the world. And that way is the winning allies of ww2 call the shots when push comes to shove. Pretty much everyone agreed 20 years ago that chemical weapons are off limits. Now they're being used. Consequences have to ensue.
I'm not sure why you mentioned desert storm, which was widely backed by the UN and 90% of the countries in the world. Iraq invaded a defenceless country and showed absolutely no intent of withdrawing.
Just saw this (yes it's the daily fail, regardless)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...chief.html
Looks more and more like a case of a trigger happy battlefield commander taking 'initiative'.
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08-28-2013, 07:41 AM
I like how the Americans here are honest and telling it how it is.It's all a struggle for more power and not some humanitarian fairy tale about saving innocent lives.The war is raging for 2 years there and if they want to save lives why have they waited so long?
Let me tell you an information.I'm from a small European country with a Muslim minority and it's a public secret here that there are dozens of mercenaries that went to fight in Syria,just imagine how many more of them are there from large Muslim countries so it's not even 100% a civil war.
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08-28-2013, 07:53 AM
There's a war against Christianity? LOL, I'm sure Christianity IS the pretext under which we go to war for. "Terrorists (Muslims) are trying to take away our freedoms". The US was founded as a secular country.
Believing everything by the "real media" (anti media) is the same as believing everything in the mainstream media.
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08-28-2013, 08:07 AM
Well it's not all bullshit, morality is part of the decision making, but national security interests probably weigh in far more heavily. The use of chemical weapons is very serious. Whoever thinks the allies would stand by and wait to see what happens is naive. Is attacking Syria the right thing to do? Who knows, history will tell soon enough.
But having someone use chemical weapons anywhere in the world in the 21st century is not compatible with NATOs security standards. The assumption was that Assad had his stuff under lock and keep, that it was off limits. Now it turns out it's not. Either he's not fully in charge of his military or he himself allowed it. Either scenario is a massive threat that has to be dealt with. What if these munitions make it out of Syria. It's not in anyone's interest that this happened.
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08-28-2013, 10:00 AM
Quote: (08-28-2013 08:07 AM)SexyBack Wrote:
The use of chemical weapons is very serious.
Why? Why is it more serious to kill someone with a "chemical weapon" than by a gun?
Whatever "chemical weapons" are available to a low tech military are likely to be very ineffective - if they were any good, they'd have been used in conflicts like World War II where no one flinched at the thought of bombing cities full of civilians to rubble. Chemical weapons were only ever used to any effect for a few years during World War I when they were new and then militaries figured out that simple training and cheap breath masks nullify most of the threat.
The big powers don't use chemicals because they're just not good weapons. That's why they gathered together to celebrate their great humanity in banning these ineffective but scary sounding weapons.
Quote:Quote:
But having someone use chemical weapons anywhere in the world in the 21st century is not compatible with NATOs security standards.
If Syrian troops were equipped with spears for the lack of any better weapons, would you conclude that a) using spears in today's world is barbaric and unacceptable and justifies painting Syria as a grave threat to the world or that b) using spears in today's world is so far behind the advanced weaponry of the West that Syria cannot be considered any threat at all to anyone besides their own population?
Quote:Quote:
Either scenario is a massive threat that has to be dealt with.
No, poison gas is no graver threat to anyone than just having Syrian troops go from house to house and shooting people. The fuss about chemicals is just deplorable moral panic propaganda over a weapon so inferior and outdated that the Western powers don't even use it anymore.
There's not even any actual proof of intentional use of poison gas. Syria is in a chaotic civil war with a lot of belligerents and hundreds of people dying in a day means that there are tons of corpses around with undetermined causes of death. As long as we have only a handful of corpses with evidence of poisoning we have absolutely no way of telling whether they were actually gassed or whether a bomb hit a pesticide warehouse next door.
Me, I'd be happy to consider saving some civilians from a massacre (poison gas or not) but the thing is, I want to be convinced that the intervention will actually do some good and the past few Western interventions in Arab countries have been disasters. Why would it be different this time?
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08-28-2013, 10:26 AM
Jaak, I believe you're trying to debate reason and moral here, something I won't attempt to partake in. What I was trying to explain was simply what is going on.
You're right, in strategic and tactical terms chemical weapons aren't good weapons. They're unpredictable, dangerous to your own troops, susceptible to weather conditions, and generally used to deny the enemy from entering an area (area of denial munition). As such they've become insignficant because of the mobility element of the modern battlefield. There's no point denying a small area to the enemy, if they can drive or fly elsewhere. The risk of harming civilians is far too great.
Why the events of last week are unacceptable is a line has indeed been crossed. If these weapons are out on the battlefield and not locked in a guarded armory they could end up anywhere in the world. They could end up on the tube in London or on a ferry from Stockholm to Abo. You might argue that the risk is minute but it doesn't matter. The event proves the weapons are deployed and that alone is compelling enough reason for the UK and US to act. There's no stopping it now.
Obama made that clear over a year ago when talking about the red line. This is it. The moral reasoning is that the act of deploying "a weapon of mass destruction" is stigmatic. Whoever is making the rules in our world has decided that using weapons of mass destruction is a no-go.
You won't be convinced military action is better than not doing anything at all. For me, the MSF statement was enough to convince me. The symptoms described could only be caused by sarin gas or similar compound, confirmed by a well respected independent and definitely pacifist NGO.
In military terms none of the recent western interventions have been disasters, not even remotely. Did they improve matters? I don't know. Well it this time? I don't know.
I'm a bit appalled by you downplaying the significance of chemical weapons being used though. Maybe you should go read about witness accounts of the 1994/5 sarin gas terrorist attacks in Japan.
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08-28-2013, 11:46 AM
Seriously, what the fuck is going on. This isn't even an isolationist vs interventionist political battle. There isn't even a vote to go to war here. Chemical weapon use is banned by the Geneva convention which puts responsibility in the UN security councils hands. I bet they need a vote too.
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08-28-2013, 12:19 PM
And there will be a vote later today which will be veto'd probably by both China and Russia rendering the security council once again ineffective in western eyes, which makes the UK, US and France feel they tried what they could and it's time to press ahead.
The way I see it, you can complain about war mongering west all day long. If either Russia or Assad himself were interested in stopping this they'd show some initiative. Russia could say, okay time out. We're sending our foreign secretary to Syria tonight to talk Assad into giving up his weapons and accepting international monitors. Or Assad himself could come out and say, okay, look, I didn't order this. This is where my weapons are at, please just come and frigging take them away, I don't want them anymore they're just a huge headache.
But no, instead they're gambling yet again on western public opinion and democracy, something they themselves don't believe in for their own countries but for some ludicrous reason they do believe that democratic values will prevent them from being knocked on their asses. Well, good luck to them.
In fact the russians have accepted they backed the wrong horse. They're already evacuating their naval base in Tartus. They probably have assurance from NATO to use a different port or be allowed to use it again in future.
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08-28-2013, 12:35 PM
Quote: (08-28-2013 02:36 AM)SexyBack Wrote:
Have to say, the amount of conspiracy vomit seemingly educated people are eager to gobble up never ceases to amaze me.
No one wants to get involved in Syria. It's a powder keg and we've had enough costly inteventions in muslim countries recently to know the ROI is not worth the trouble. These guys never get their shit together even after you point them in the right direction, give them a bunch of money and show great leniency. That ship has sailed.
Regardless, some shit you just can't let slide, and willfully using nerve gas against civilians is not on. And it shouldn't be. I don't know where you guys grew up but my grandfather and great-uncles all went to war over tyrants comitting genocide. What's changed? Did you see all those suffering children? Do you think they're plastic dolls?
Have we become so afraid to offend the Russians and Chinese that we're not going to stand up for what we believe in and enforce our bounderies? Regardless of what the west does these days half of our own population is always blaming ourselves for action as well as inaction. If anything, that is a tell-tale sign of a declining hegemony. But until we fully get there, I'm in favour of sending an unambiguous message to those who did this.
You're pretty much the definition of a useful idiot if you actually believe this. You're being manipulated by governments and the media. The West is not "standing up" for anything. The West could not possibly give less of a shit about a few hundred dead Syrians who died in a gas attack. You literally seem to have a childlike conception of the way the world works.
"Those guys are EVIL! We have to stop them!"
How about this: if you're so in favor of sending an "unambiguous message" to Assad, why don't you pack your bags and head to Syria yourself? I'm sure the rebels would love to have a Westerner they can parade around for PR, like happened in Libya.
There's nothing worse than some armchair chickenhawk (chickenshit, more accurately) talking tough and calling for other men to inflict violence on his behalf. In your case though, it's actually more pathetic than contemptible, because you really seem completely deluded about what's actually going on.
You should stop posting. You're either an idiot, a troll, or a globalist shill. I'm thinking it's more likely a combination of the latter two, given your reg date and lack of post history. Kind of funny how you just pop out of nowhere and start spouting all this bullshit in one thread.
[size=8pt]"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.”[/size] [size=7pt] - Romans 8:18[/size]
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08-28-2013, 12:52 PM
Damn, a whole barrage of insults just because i have a different understanding of world politics to your own? You're entitled to your opinion, and I have my own. Sure makes me wonder though, what happened to all that democratic fairness, equality and morality you're so intent on safekeeping if you can't accept an opinion different to your own?
Feel free to enlighten me about what you think is really going on in the world.
But telling people to quite posting just because you disagree is poor form indeed. You have to be big enough to admit you've done yourself a disservice there.
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08-28-2013, 01:06 PM
Quote: (08-28-2013 12:52 PM)SexyBack Wrote:
Damn, a whole barrage of insults just because i have a different understanding of world politics to your own? You're entitled to your opinion, and I have my own. Sure makes me wonder though, what happened to all that democratic fairness, equality and morality you're so intent on safekeeping if you can't accept an opinion different to your own?
Feel free to enlighten me about what you think is really going on in the world.
But telling people to quite posting just because you disagree is poor form indeed. You have to be big enough to admit you've done yourself a disservice there.
You don't have a "different" understanding. You have
no understanding. You're just spouting government talking points straight out of John Kerry's mouth. Your interpretation of events is literally at the most shallow level possible: believe everything you hear from authority figures and start repeating it as fact. You're demonstrating a capacity for reasoning and interpreting information at the level of an elementary school child who sees the world completely in black and white. So given that you're basically just regurgitating White House talking points, it stands to reason that you're either: 1) An imbecile incapable of independent thought, or 2) A troll/shill.
Either way your posts have zero value.
[size=8pt]"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.”[/size] [size=7pt] - Romans 8:18[/size]
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08-28-2013, 01:22 PM
Let me ask you this, are you the designated authority on this forum tasked with determining what value my posts have? Can a third party please confirm this. Otherwise all I'm receiving from you is a whole load of needless insults and the static that you are convinced what the world seems like isn't what it really is. Now I don't have a problem with you seeing it that way, I don't see any pressing reason why you take such grave offence with me seeing things my way.
You know what I don't get about conspiracy theorists and those of you that see the truth. This shit comes around ever couple of years. Someone schmuck somewhere oversteps, US/UK tells em to stop. Russia and whoever always opposes intervention. It happens regardless. The press loves it. Armageddon and Vietnam are always foretold. After a few months everything calms down. We all forget. The schmuck who overstepped usually has gone away, either right away or during some kind of political process. Nothing really changes for the better or worse on the ground.
In a few years from now you nor I will remember this conversation. A couple of days of airraids won't change the course of history. It'll make for a 2 screen wikipedia entry.