[cardguy]

I love the respect the Americians have for their war dead.

The tombs of the unknown soldiers are guarded 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. In the UK those tombs are not guarded at all - sadly...

Here is an interesting behind the scenes look at the meticulous preparation that goes into the guarding of the tomb:

This amazing picture always brings a tear to my eye.

[cardguy]

Contrast this with the UK.

Here is Charlie Gilmour (the stepson of Pink Floyd singer David Gilmour). He was studying History at Cambridge University at the time:



This was at The Centotaph which is the most famous war memorial in the country.

[cardguy]

I remember being astonished at how ingenious and moving the concept of the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier was when I first came across it. I must have being about 12 at the time.

Here is the history behind the idea:

Quote:

The idea of a Tomb of the Unknown Warrior was first conceived in 1916 by the Reverend David Railton, who, while serving as an army chaplain on the Western Front, had seen a grave marked by a rough cross, which bore the pencil-written legend 'An Unknown British Soldier'.

He wrote to the Dean of Westminster in 1920 proposing that an unidentified British soldier from the battlefields in France be buried with due ceremony in Westminster Abbey "amongst the kings" to represent the many hundreds of thousands of Empire dead. The idea was strongly supported by the Dean and the then Prime Minister David Lloyd George.

[cardguy]

To be honest. I don't see any glory in dying for your country. I just find it too sad.

You are alive for a short while. And then you are dead forever. When you cut through all the propaganda and jingoism. That is something that really blows my mind. It is worth spending a few minutes thinking deeply about that.

When you are dead. It makes it all seem so pointless. I just cannot get my head around that. And I think alot of young people are foolish to throw away their lives like that.

If you look at all of the wars of the twentieth century - it seems as if WWII was the only one which was truly worth fighting.

But you have to ask yourself. WWII didn't stop the holocaust. It actually facilitated it. And stopping the holocaust had nothing to do with why the Allies declared war on Germany.

Also - there is no clear moral victor in WWII. The Allies joined with Stalin - who caused more deaths than Hitler. And along the way - the Americans had to resort to nuclear weapons to end the war with Japan. Even then - the bombs were not dropped to finish the war. But instead to prevent Russia from sharing in the spoils in Japan.

So - as much as I honour the war dead. I think it behooves us all to be a little wary when thinking about such issues. Since many powerful people want other people to die for their causes. Without ever being prepared to risk their own lives. Or the lives of their family, and the families of their powerful friends.

Personally - I would bring back conscription. If a war is truly worth fighting then every community in the country should be prepared to take part. And if they are not - it suggests we shouldn't be at war in the first place. It is the only way to keep politicians accountable over such issues.

As opposed to leaving a tiny minority of the country to worry about the fighting and the dying. Indeed - if we had conscription I doubt we would have ever gone to war in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[Icarus]

(06-15-2013 08:14 PM)cardguy Wrote:  

As opposed to leaving a tiny minority of the country to worry about the fighting and the dying.

That minority changes over time.

Once upon a time, war was the favorite activity of the nobility. If we go back some 9 centuries, we have the Crusades. If we go back some 25 centuries, we have Sparta, whose citizens devoted themselves completely to war and government, and let petty activities like commerce and agriculture to the lower castes (of non-citizens and slaves).

Technology made war utterly uninteresting and, therefore, the fighting minority changed. An Apache helicopter pilot (e.g., Prince Harry) is not a warrior. He's just a soldier. You can still find warriors in infantry, though. You probably won't find any in today's Chair Force.

[cardguy]

I am not sure if this is well known in America.

But Winston Chuchill lost the general election in 1945.

From what I can tell people were tired of fighting and wanted to rebuild the country. And were worried that Churchill might have wanted to continue the fighting with a new war against Russia.

[cardguy]

There is a difference between the leaders of today. And the likes of Stalin, Hitler and Churchill.

When those guys declared war - they knew that defeat would mean they would be hanged or shot

Can you imagine a politician literally risking his neck today? Over anything?

[samsamsam]

Ya, I was shocked when I read that as a kid. Churchill did so much to keep the country together during the war.

[cardguy]

Yeah - I guess people who lived during those years saw Churchill differently to how we do. War and politics are two different things.

Even Orson Welles agreed that Churchill didn't deserve to win the election. He briefly puts forward this view in the video below.

Still - Churchill did manage to come back to power in 1951.

[TheBlackNarwhal]

I disagree that conscription or the draft should be in affect (unless in the most extreme circumstances). It is inefficient and counter-productive to have people who never wished to serve the military and put them in uniform against their wishes. This leads to lackluster performance and indifference for the objective. At least with an all-volunteer force you can remind them that they chose this path. I am myself seriously looking to join the military.

Also, I have seen several videos of the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier and the guards themselves are unflappable in their duties. Truly, it is one of the highest honors.

[vinman]

It's easy to honor the dead, they have no needs. If only we helped more of our living vets. Maybe there wouldn't be so much homelessness, and so many suicides.

[Aliblahba]

I'd fight and die for England. No bullshit.

[The Fantasist]

(06-15-2013 09:01 PM)cardguy Wrote:  

Even Orson Welles agreed that Churchill didn't deserve to win the election. He briefly puts forward this view in the video below.

Haha that is a great story!

We have to remember with Churchill that he is despised by many nations in the EE for selling them down the river to Stalin post 1945. We returned escapees to certain death and the Poles to a world of Stalinism and the loss of huge chunks of it's ancestral territory. I understand that Churchill wanted to keep us out of another disastrous European war with the CCCP but I wish he had been firmer with Stalin and allowed EE to choose their own path.

[The Fantasist]

Here is a photo showing what certain elements of our society think of one of our greatest leaders:

[attachment=12693]

Imagine if that happened in America! If I had seen that I'd have not been responsible for my actions and would have made the little cunt lick it clean. It's an interesting observation that Cardguy mentioned, the difference between how our war memorials are treated in the UK v US. I have been in France recently and every village has a well tended memorial with a neat little garden around it perfectly manicured and in tip top condition, no drunks sitting on it or skateboarders using it as something to do jumps off. Compare that to our memorials...

Every time I pass the WW1 memorial in my town I tip my head a little and silently say thanks to the guys who went over the top to their certain death.

[2Wycked]

First off, I lost 3 significant family members in WW2. My grandfather found a way to enlist - his 3 other brothers had already enlisted. All of those brothers died in the war. I would list my grandfather on my mother's side, but he had no siblings.

Maybe my grandfather was an unknown warrior? A man who fought for people who would piss on his legacy, only to come home to a lower-class job for life. Only to live on welfare and barely support his family.

My father would tell me about how they would go fishing at a local creek and how that was the best moments of his life.

Sometimes, you see the arc of your familial history. You understand the sacrifices that were made for you to be here & where you are.

I originally brought in that photo just to joke about climbing the building to the left in Assassin's Creed. It's not so funny anymore.

God bless America?

[PoosyWrecker]

Vorkuta who are those guys?!

[Therapsid]

(06-15-2013 08:31 PM)cardguy Wrote:  

I am not sure if this is well known in America.

But Winston Chuchill lost the general election in 1945.

From what I can tell people were tired of fighting and wanted to rebuild the country. And were worried that Churchill might have wanted to continue the fighting with a new war against Russia.

Yep. Americans know nothing about this. When I tell people, they're surprised.

It seems treasonously ungrateful from a U.S. perspective. But putting aside what Attlee and Labour ended up doing to create (or ruin) post-war Britain, the NIH, etc. I think the British people at the time were surprisingly rational.

That election in '45 is what separates America from other Western nations. The U.S. supports its war presidents- which only feeds into and abets the war addiction of the military industrial complex.

Kennedy observed this attitude wistfully. After the colossal failure of the Bay of Pigs invasion, he saw his approval rating shoot up. He declared: "The worse I do, the more popular I get," and "I hope I don’t have to keep doing stupid things like that to remain popular."

[A War You Cannot Win]

When I was stationed in Virginia my girlfriend at the time was going to Georgetown so she knew DC proper and the surrounding area well. One weekend she took me to see the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. It was a very moving experience. I'm not ashamed to admit I shed a few man-tears. As the bumper sticker on my car states 'All gave some, some gave all'.

[Travelsick]

Well this is why America is a superpower, at least militarily. You put that in your budget, 30 guys to do this and they do it proper. While our war memorials get desecrated over here in the UK.

[A War You Cannot Win]

Such stupid people.

If they want to make an anti war statement, perhaps they should reconsider desecrating the memorials dedicated to the faceless and nameless young men who bravely served on the front lines and go lynch the politicians, the bankers, the war profiteers who actually benefit from war and engineer the propagation of.

I guess that's asking too much from a nutless, insipid, entitled, babied, and stupid generation?

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

This is particularly disgraceful given the immense suffering of UK during both World Wars. A damn shame that these monuments are not guarded, particularly since it would not out of respect but to protect them from actual harm.

[cardguy]

Just listening to Nimrod by Elgar and thought I would add to this old thread.

For those of you in America - you may not be aware that Rememberance Sunday (the second Sunday of November or the Sunday nearest the 11th November) is the day here in the UK when we commemorate our war dead.

It is the most British of days since it is marked by a quiet patriotism, and a restrained sense of respect and gratitude.

[Katatonic]

My Grandfather was in the 101st Airborne during WWII and for years afterwards received letters from people in Holland and France thanking him for his role in their liberation. Knowing him, I also probably have a ton of uncles, aunts, and cousins that I don't know about over there too. There's quite a few of his war stories in the Library of Congress, but not the ones I liked the most.

[TopPanda]

Those are war memorials, not tombs.

In the UK, our unknown guy is buried in Westminster Abbey, so he's pretty safe there.

I'm currently in Thailand and I'm amazed at all these little shrines outside buildings. The one near me has loads of little chicken statues lined up all along it. Yet nobody seems to steal or vandalize the little dudes.

[cardguy]

Quote:

If you can read English, thank a teacher. If you can speak English, thank a soldier.