[Hades]

Chaos and Pain did a great article recently on types of keto diets and getting swole - [NSFW]

http://chaosandpain.blogspot.com/?zx=9b04167663bd2699

One part of the article that struck me was that ordinary people on the keto diet experienced some pretty serious body recomposition in a short time period.

Quote:

A study conducted at the University of Connecticut in the early part of the last decade showed that thyroid function was greatly increased in a six week ketogenic dieting period, and that significant fat loss and muscle gain occurred- all of the participants had extraordinarily positive recomposition in a short period of time, and they accomplished this in spite of being fatties and saddies. If fatties and saddies can lose an average of 7 lbs of body fat and gain 2 lbs of muscle in a six week period, I'd think that the average techno-death metal-Viking Hooligan would thrive on it. Dave Palumbo certainly did- at his best, he squatted 800 for four and deadlifted 600 for 8, which is pretty fucking impressive for a guy training for size and definition rather than strength.

I try to keto at least a month out of the year just to burn fat. It's easy. If you've never seen your abs you're missing out.

[_GQ_]

(05-07-2013 06:53 PM)Hades Wrote:  

I try to keto at least a month out of the year just to burn fat. It's easy. If you've never seen your abs you're missing out.

Can you explain your diet?

[Hades]

(05-07-2013 09:44 PM)_GQ_ Wrote:  

(05-07-2013 06:53 PM)Hades Wrote:  

I try to keto at least a month out of the year just to burn fat. It's easy. If you've never seen your abs you're missing out.

Can you explain your diet?

I try to keep it simple. I start out with an 18 hour fast and eat nothing but meat, eggs, and water for three to five days.

Afterwards it's mostly about eating enough meat, cheese, broccoli, spinach, eggs, and bacon to keep things interesting for the rest of the month. I tend to salt everything pretty heavily after it's been cooked in oil or butter and have one cheat meal once a week (usually a medium pizza and a few beers).

This spring I'm fatter than I usually am, so it's going to be hill sprints, kettlebell swings, and maybe strict paleo for the duration of spring and well into summer. Doing a cheat meal once or twice a month doesn't hurt anything.

[_DC_]

I'm currently trying the following body recomp: Its pretty hardcore intermittent fasting, like Eat Stop Eat, but 3 fasted days instead of two. My idea is to take in all my calories/protein 24 hrs after lifting, when the muscles are hungriest. Lifting M, W, F with SS (squats, bench, pullups, etc), so fasted days are Sun, Tu, Thu. Sat will be a cheat day but not for gorging. With around 2500 cals on 4 feeding days and ~200g protein, I will still be at a sizable calorie deficit for the week. Im 6' 175lb and reasonably lean.

I was sick of normal dieting and no gym. Ive even tried some psmf but not enough energy for any useful gym time.

I hope this can get me a sixer in 4-6 weeks. I feel like the only soul in miami beach without one.

[Valentine]

Prolonged intermittent fasting is the way to go to lose weight, I prefer daily fasts though (Leangains-style 16+ hrs).

If you can afford it, appetite suppressants make extending your fast A LOT easier:

1) Caffeine 200mg + ephedra 20mg (potentiates caffeine) - can stack L-Theanine if you get jittery

2) Yohimbine 15mg (DO NOT have at same time as caffeine, fucks with blood pressure). These first 2 also help stimulate quicker fat burning in themselves too.

3) MCT oil (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shangri-La_Diet - basic gist is that you hold your nose and shot about 300 calories worth, which massively reduces your hunger. Isn't the same magnitude in all people but definitely worth a shot).

4) Chromium Policinate - not tried myself yet, heard it does wonders for carb cravings thouh

Also PAGG supplement (4 hour body tim ferriss) and cissus quadrangularis also are great for increasing fat burning also (not personally tried them but both are extremely popular and research-proven).

[SPinker]

Check out The Ketogenic Diet by Lyle Mcdonald. Can probably find the pdf for download through search

[TheKantian]

I tried the keto diet a long time ago and never really got much from it. I felt like I lost more muscle than fat. Carb Cycling, however, worked great for me. So if anyone is not getting the results they expected with keto I would recommend checking out carb cycling.

[alecks]

the nutritional advice on this forum is the worst ive ever come across. And I love this forum

[Bricks]

(05-09-2013 01:30 PM)alecks Wrote:  

the nutritional advice on this forum is the worst ive ever come across. And I love this forum

Thanks for the input.

[MrXY]

I'm doing Dave Palumbos ketogenic diet right now; I did it last year with excellent results

This year I'm going for the full six pack

[Hades]

(05-09-2013 01:30 PM)alecks Wrote:  

the nutritional advice on this forum is the worst ive ever come across. And I love this forum

I would agree insofar as it's not complete nutritional advice. This is just a tidbit from Chaos and Pain. A more rounded site like Mark's Daily Apple would be more suitable to get information from.

[WestIndianArchie]

(05-09-2013 01:30 PM)alecks Wrote:  

the nutritional advice on this forum is the worst ive ever come across. And I love this forum

That's because nutritional science is largely rubbish.

No Carb, Low Carb, Slow Carb, Ital, Dukan, Vegan, Vegetarian, Mediterranean, paleo, Paleo ™, Primal, Grapefruit, Zone, Juice fasts, Warrior, Body Building, Grapefruit, lemonade, Cutting, Bulking, Glycemic, Gluten-Free, Celiac - you can find anecdotes and studies to disprove and prove every last one of these.

Are any of them authoritative?

Naw, cause nutritional science is rubbish.

That's why there's so much money in it.

A nutrition professor lost 20 lbs eating nothing but Twinkies

http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twi...index.html

TWINKIES!

There are people who eat well in excess of their so called daily caloric requirements and don't gain anything, those who go vastly under and can't lose a thing. Hell, people get fat on Raw Food Diets.

A man's only salvation is to pick something, stick with it long enough to know if there should be some results, and change course if necessary.

That's all you can do, because everything out there is bullshit.

WIA

[Nascimento]

(05-09-2013 09:23 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

(05-09-2013 01:30 PM)alecks Wrote:  

the nutritional advice on this forum is the worst ive ever come across. And I love this forum

That's because nutritional science is largely rubbish.

No Carb, Low Carb, Slow Carb, Ital, Dukan, Vegan, Vegetarian, Mediterranean, paleo, Paleo ™, Primal, Grapefruit, Zone, Juice fasts, Warrior, Body Building, Grapefruit, lemonade, Cutting, Bulking, Glycemic, Gluten-Free, Celiac - you can find anecdotes and studies to disprove and prove every last one of these.

Are any of them authoritative?

Naw, cause nutritional science is rubbish.

That's why there's so much money in it.

A nutrition professor lost 20 lbs eating nothing but Twinkies

http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twi...index.html

TWINKIES!

There are people who eat well in excess of their so called daily caloric requirements and don't gain anything, those who go vastly under and can't lose a thing. Hell, people get fat on Raw Food Diets.

A man's only salvation is to pick something, stick with it long enough to know if there should be some results, and change course if necessary.

That's all you can do, because everything out there is bullshit.

WIA

Well said. The only way to find out if something works is to always attempt it yourself.

[Cyclone]

Honestly, the primal diet and lifestyle is the way to go. IMO it's the wave of the future - it means eating lots of meat, fresh vegetables, nuts and seeds, and some fruit. That's all there is to it. Eat what mankind used to eat. Work out how mankind used to physically exert himself. Yeah, throw in a bit of pasta or cheesecake here and there to continue enjoying life.

But honestly I don't think there's much point in going full on "keto" especially if you have a full-time job and can't handle being dizzy, fatigued for nearly a week. Keep it at 150-200 grams of carbs per day for a couple months and that's all there is to it (i'm at <150 for now).
.

[Andy_B]

Low-carb is technically the best way to put on muscle, because it allows you to eat a higher amount of protein while keeping calorie intake the same. The problem is you need carbs for energy. Without a significant amount of carbs you WILL eventually start to feel the fatigue, even if it takes you a few months to get to that point. What's the point of eating more protein if you aren't lasting long enough in the gym.

My take on the low carb thing is: it's probably best to do most of your "calorie cutting" in the carb department if you are a legit fatty trying to lose weight and get cut. If all you're doing is cutting your carbs from an unhealthy level to a healthy level, I see no problem with that. But if you're already not out of shape and just trying to get cut, screw low-carb diets. Just look for low-calorie sources of protein instead, like lentils or creatine.

[alecks]

I Really dont know where to start with some of these comments. I think I might do a full thread on the bullshit on this forum. I could talk about it for days.

Carbs rule. Fats and protein are overrated beyond belief.

[Cyclone]

^ Well the whole theory, in case you missed it, is that ancient man had a minimal amount of carbs (<100 grams) in his diet when we were in our prime. Therefore we should continue to do the same today in the same spirit which will regulate our bodily functions for maximum muscle, minimal gain of unnecessary fat, and mental clarity. (for example, just last night before going out I went to a dinner party which was "self-serve" - I ate a *ton* of food, all meat, cheese, and veggies. Stomach was bursting. I got mad at myself for eating so much before going out because I usually pass out. Strange thing was, I didn't feel like passing out at ALL this time. I just felt really full but could still function socially 100%)

I *love* carbs bro. I dig in on occasion. But if you want to talk about how overrated fat and protein is "for days", be my guest.
.

[Therapsid]

It's not clear that it's even true that prehistoric man ate a low-carb diet. To a certain extent this idea's based on the assumption that prior to agriculture people didn't eat grains. But in fact, archaeological evidence shows that early Homo sapiens did eat wild grains and even cooked them to make things like porridge long before we started growing them ourselves. In fact, people may have even been making bread with wild grains 30,000 years ago:

"Starch grains found on grinding stones suggest that prehistoric man may have consumed a type of bread at least 30,000 years ago in Europe, US researchers said.

The study, published Monday in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, suggested that processing starch grains, possibly grinding them into flour, was a widespread practice across Europe, contrary to popular belief that the Paleolithic man was primarily a meat eater.
Grains recovered from grindstones and pestle grinders at three sites in Italy, Russia and the Czech Republic appeared to come mostly from starchy cattails and ferns, which researchers said would provide a significant source of carbohydrates and energy."

http://phys.org/news/2010-10-prehistoric...years.html

Also, even if we do accept that people used to originally have a low-carb diet, it's worth remembering that we've continued to evolve since then. People from Europe, the Middle East, South Asia, and East Asia have been consuming carbohydrate rich diets based upon wheat or rice for many thousands of years at this point.

I'm not dismissing low-carb diets. I seem to lose weight readily on them. But they may not be necessary for everyone. There are hundreds of millions of Asians who eat tons of rice and somehow stay skinny. It's probably because they've evolved that way over thousands of years. We always talk about human biodiversity in terms of intelligence, but it's more interesting to think about it in terms of diet and lifestyle.

[reaper23]

(05-09-2013 11:46 PM)Andy_B Wrote:  

Low-carb is technically the best way to put on muscle, because it allows you to eat a higher amount of protein while keeping calorie intake the same. The problem is you need carbs for energy. Without a significant amount of carbs you WILL eventually start to feel the fatigue, even if it takes you a few months to get to that point. What's the point of eating more protein if you aren't lasting long enough in the gym.

My take on the low carb thing is: it's probably best to do most of your "calorie cutting" in the carb department if you are a legit fatty trying to lose weight and get cut. If all you're doing is cutting your carbs from an unhealthy level to a healthy level, I see no problem with that. But if you're already not out of shape and just trying to get cut, screw low-carb diets. Just look for low-calorie sources of protein instead, like lentils or creatine.

there is so much wrong with this entire post that I don't even know where to start. but bro, seriously, go to a board that has real experts in nutrition and read up.

anyone who thinks that you get protein from creatine has no business speaking one word on nutrition.

in fact this post is so full of falsehoods i'm pretty sure its a misinformation

[reaper23]

(05-09-2013 09:51 PM)Nascimento Wrote:  

(05-09-2013 09:23 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

(05-09-2013 01:30 PM)alecks Wrote:  

the nutritional advice on this forum is the worst ive ever come across. And I love this forum

That's because nutritional science is largely rubbish.

No Carb, Low Carb, Slow Carb, Ital, Dukan, Vegan, Vegetarian, Mediterranean, paleo, Paleo ™, Primal, Grapefruit, Zone, Juice fasts, Warrior, Body Building, Grapefruit, lemonade, Cutting, Bulking, Glycemic, Gluten-Free, Celiac - you can find anecdotes and studies to disprove and prove every last one of these.

Are any of them authoritative?

Naw, cause nutritional science is rubbish.

That's why there's so much money in it.

A nutrition professor lost 20 lbs eating nothing but Twinkies

http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twi...index.html

TWINKIES!

There are people who eat well in excess of their so called daily caloric requirements and don't gain anything, those who go vastly under and can't lose a thing. Hell, people get fat on Raw Food Diets.

A man's only salvation is to pick something, stick with it long enough to know if there should be some results, and change course if necessary.

That's all you can do, because everything out there is bullshit.

WIA

Well said. The only way to find out if something works is to always attempt it yourself.

when I finally came to understand the nutrition is universally personalized and its impact practically unique to everyone, it really mad me sad.

sad because now my across the board fat shaming is really unfounded.

i'm 6"4' 255. I can't lose weight if I eat over 2500 calories even when I'm working out 5-6 times a week. Can you believe that?

It is crazy. I have tracked this shit for years and it took me so long to finally come to the acceptance that this was the case. But it is. My steady state caloric burn is much much much much lower than would be expected for a person my size (18% bf or 210lbs LBM).

The only real universal truth is that you have to try things, experiment, keep track of results and come to your own conclusions.

[Hades]

I don't think there's a right or a wrong way of doing nutrition. Nutrition is about tinkering and finding what works for yourself.

That being said, a lot of people seem to be intolerant to high levels of carbohydrates (me included). I've put on probably fifteen pounds of body fat ever since moving back to the states and eating shitty food from the cafeteria. I also know that once I move to a low carb diet I will drop probably twenty or thirty pounds (fifteen of that being body fat and the rest being gut inflammation), because it's happened twice already.

If Jamie Lewis is adopting a cyclical keto diet, breaking power-lifting records within his weight class, and being ripped out of his mind at the same time, then I'm going to pay attention to his approach. I'm more interested in results than theory and always have been.

[T and A Man]

Honestly, for nutrition and exercise regimes, go straight to the forums at bodybuilding.com.

They are legit, just ignore the losers who use 'brah', and srs' in their text bodies.

The guys who are informed really make it their life's mission to know this stuff, and have phenomenal sources to back their claims.

Nowhere there does anyone endorse keto as along term prospect. It is, legitimately, a technique to temporarily reduce body fat composition, and whilst bulking, nowhere do0 they make it a minimal component of your macros.

Even when on a keto diet, they say a cheat day is must every 3 to 5 days of being on it.

[Cyclone]

(05-11-2013 11:42 AM)Therapsid Wrote:  

It's not clear that it's even true that prehistoric man ate a low-carb diet. To a certain extent this idea's based on the assumption that prior to agriculture people didn't eat grains. But in fact, archaeological evidence shows that early Homo sapiens did eat wild grains and even cooked them to make things like porridge long before we started growing them ourselves. In fact, people may have even been making bread with wild grains 30,000 years ago

Well it makes me happy to hear that, even though that sounds like they *still* ate significantly lower carbs than we do now. It's also doubtful that 30,000 years significant enough to be comfortable with the amount of carbs we pile on today.

I've typically been at 400-500 gram/day of carbs through my teen years, and I'm guessing the average American is at ~500 grams/day. NO MATTER WHO YOU ARE THIS IS FAR TOO HIGH. Cutting it down to 200 grams/day (which is still fairly generous) will have a positive impact on ANYONE. There's a difference between "low-carb diet" and "not being a complete retard about your health"
.

[T and A Man]

Quote:

Cutting it down to 200 grams/day (which is still fairly generous) will have a positive impact on ANYONE

Can you scientifically justify this claim?

You talk of human predecessors of 30,000 years ago. I think there is no doubt we are intellectually more capable than them.

It is also known that Carbs are necessary for optimising cognitive function. One could theorise the introduction of farming of grains, and the increase of carbs into our diet was a major influence in our predecessors 'smartening up'. Observing keto now who go too many days has many people lose concentration and become faint when doing high energy activities like bowel movements or exercise (hence the cheat days).

Whilst I make no excuse for too many carbs in the modern diet, to assert 200gms is ideal or optimal is not founded.

[Cyclone]

(05-13-2013 12:19 AM)T and A Man Wrote:  

Quote:

Cutting it down to 200 grams/day (which is still fairly generous) will have a positive impact on ANYONE

Can you scientifically justify this claim?

Whilst I make no excuse for too many carbs in the modern diet, to assert 200gms is ideal or optimal is not founded.

Sorry for delay - I'm basing it off of reddit's paleo sub and Mark Sisson's book, which charts 100-150g/day as the ideal for maintaining weight http://www.amazon.com/Primal-Blueprint-R...+blueprint (he's a "leader" of sorts of the movement). Others like Gary Taubes say less than 50g/day

Obviously it's not "scientific" because everybody's body composition is different, but merely common sense (for example, "eating less chips is healthy for you"). I say @ 200g/day because that'd include plenty of crap food like pie and beer in between meals to enjoy life while not being obsessive about it, and still be far less than the destructive average of 400g/day
.