[Nudge]

Yeah that block by Muller was total bullshit. The second goal ok its a marginal offside, but the third was just ridiculous and shouldnt happen in the semi of the champions league. What do those lemon refs behind the goal do anyway? Absolutely fuck all.

Having said that though Bayern really played the perfect game and deserved to win. Messi was clearly injured, should not have played or been subbed earlier.

[Every10GivesMeA10]

The excuses start again LOL. Funny how you don't mention that Bayern should've got 2 penalties from handballs and 2 free kicks from handballs. And to add to that, Barcelona have won numerous trophies thanks to illegal goals. No one has a right to complain about this.

[Excelsior]

I'm late to this discussion but I wanted to engage this bit:

(04-22-2013 12:40 AM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  

The only American, sorry meant North American as it's a Canadian game where I'd consider true alpha game is ice hockey. It's a tough, extremely physical game where skills are very high and needed.

While Americans frequently display an extreme ignorance toward world football (soccer) that I can't endorse, I have to say that you're underselling American football here.

American football players have a) the shortest careers, b) the highest rates of serious violent injury and c) the lowest compensation of just about any major team sport (I'm comparing the NFL to the NBA, MLB, NHL, and top-flight association football as well).

There is no team game that puts you at greater risk for serious injury and compensates you less for it. This is a big reason why football season contains so few contests (NFL players hit 20 games in a season max, MLB guys do hundreds, NBA guys do 80+, and top-flight footballers can get 50+ appearances in a year) and it is also why the NFL (and american football in general) is under significantly more legal pressure right now than other leagues/sports. People are starting to realize just how dangerous it is, enough so that there could be serious legal consequences.

It is unrealistic to promote ice hockey as an "alpha game" for its toughness and physicality while in the same breath looking down on American football. American football is a significantly more physically punishing and dangerous game, and soon there may be class-action lawsuits to prove it (the stats and studies are already there).

Quote:

IMO, the ultimate alpha team sport is Rugby. No protection at all, they still keep on playing while bleeding! Where a guy gets injured, the play continues! And once you get subbed, you can't return to the game! 80 minutes of action packed, end to end stuff with not a single moment to take it easy save at half time and even then it's not always the case! Take any NFL guy and put him in a rugby league in Europe or in any of the big southern hemisphere leagues (South Africa, Aussie and NZ) and they will get destroyed and torn to pieces!

This is also common in the football (soccer) vs. American football debates-rugby is brought in as an example of a truly physical sport, usually used to cast American football in a negative light.

A few things are forgotten here:

1. Most of the contact you see in American football is illegal in rugby, which has far more stringent rules on how and where you can initiate contact. This is a big reason why you see more padding in one than the other.

2. American football players are, on average, significantly larger.

Most American football players would not make it in top-flight rugby. They simply lack the stamina. They are explosive (anaerobic) athletes and rugby is a more aerobic game. American football training focuses exclusively on enhancing short-burst/ anaerobic explosive ability. This yields players who can pack on alot of bulk/lean muscle and run very quickly over short distances (there is no other team sport with players this quick over 100m), but all of this comes at the price of aerobic stamina. Your typical NFL player would probably look very slow and out of place on a competitive rugby pitch, though there'd be some exceptions to this.

On the flip side, most rugby players would also be "destroyed" or "torn to pieces" were they put into an NFL or elite NCAA American football competition. The things that make American football players poor fits for rugby (lack of stamina, bulk, etc) also yield significant advantages. These include greater explosive ability (useful in a game where anaerobic, short-burst explosion is all you use) and greater bulk/size/strength. These are the things rugby players would need to survive on an American football field, and they don't have them.

I dislike these debates because the reality is that all of these sports are great in their own right, and present unique challenges that may elude the other. I don't like when Americans talk disparagingly about football (soccer), but American games aren't totally unworthy of respect either.

[bojangles]

I enjoyed that game last night, you could see how much Barcelona rely on Lionel Messi, it's funny how people have said he can't do anything without Xavi and Iniesta, yesterday and the PSG games seem to be showing the opposite. Every team needs talisman like this to be the best though. Sure there were a couple of bad decisions but luck like that is needed to win a major trophy, I know this fully well having seen my team win the CL in 2005.

On tactical basis, Tito Villanova is no Guardiola. Guardiola is castigated by many as they say it was easy for him to win titles with such a superior side full of stars, but Guardiola regularly changed the formation they played and personnel, Tito seems to stick with the same players, especially up front where David Villa hardly plays anymore whilst Alexis who has performed like a sack of shit all season constantly plays.

On Bayern, Jupp Heynckes is close to mastering a style of play characterised for some who you who will be surprised by Rafa Benitez. This Bayern Munich side is literally an amalgamation of Rafa Benitez's Valencia side 2002-2004 and his Liverpool side frmo 2008-2009. The tactics of the side are exactly the same, but Bayern have spent the money to basically upgrade the quality of players so that it is literally dominant in all facets (bar possession against Barcelona which is hard even if they have 10 men). The game last night reminded me of Liverpool's dominance against Real Madrid in a 4-0 CL win. Benitez was always vilified for playing with 2 defensive midfielders, but that's exactly what this freescoring Bayern side did. Everyone says 2 defensive midfielders means your side won't score many goals. Benitez used Baraja and Albelda in the 2 at Valencia with Pablo Aimar in a free role, 2 wide players being Vicente/Rufete/Angulo and Mista up front. At Liverpool it was Alonso and Mascherano holding, Gerrard in the free role, 2 wide players were Riera/Kuyt/Benayoun and Torres up front. Bayern have upgraded this to Martinez/Schweinsteiger, Kroos in the free role (Muller last night) and Robben/Ribery/Muller/Shaquiri wide with Mandzukic/Gomez up top.

The difference is purely the quality of the core in all three of those sides, the quality of the 2 defensive midfielders, and Munich's world class widemen. That Valencia defence was mean, with Roberto Ayala marshalling it, this Bayern defence has 4 top defenders to choose from, Liverpool relied on Agger/Skrtel/Carragher and still do. Albelda used to sit deep and sweep up, Baraja used to sit deep but also surge forward to support the attack but had the engine to drop back and win the ball. Alonso used to sit deep, sweep up and dictate play, Mascherano would sit deep too and double up on full backs but his surges forward were limited. Schweinsteiger/Martinez is the ultimate pairing in this sort of setup, both though all of the above, they sweep up, double on fullbacks, surge forward and dictate play. Also physically they are above the quality in that department shown by those above. Vicente is the only stand out wide player from those in Valencia and Liverpool sides, Bayern have world class wingers in Robben/Ribery and Muller and have added Gotze this week for next season. Vicente at his height was better than any of them but having 4 top quality wingers is better than relying on the 1 in a system, there's always a fresh pair of legs willing to run the length of the pitch. Up top is where Bayern are light in my eyes, Mista was no top forward, neither are Gomez and Mandzukic but the system makes them top notch, Torres of Liverpool form would be absolutely deadly in this Bayern team considering how quick they consistently break, there's not much difference in Aimar/Gerrard/Kroos except the first 2 are probably quite a bit ahead of Kroos who is still young. There are different schools of thought in football, Bayern have followed the Benitez 4-2-3-1 path, Barcelona follow the Cruyff 4-3-3 path, Bayern are reaching the top of their curve I'd say, once they add Lewandowski this summer they will be unstoppable.

Barcelona can still win the tie, it seems an impossible task but it's not, Lionel Messi has to be fit, he's destroyed teams single handedly before (recently Leverkusen and Arsenal spring to mind), they will be in the Nou Camp, they have gain momentum from kick off and play a risky 3-4-3. If you had £10 spare put money on them to score 3 or more goals.

Dortmund will beat Real tonight I think.

[Matt3B]

10 games for Suarez. Haha what an absolute joke of an organisation the FA are.

[Teedub]

He deserved a tough punishment, but 10 games is way too far. I'd say 5 would be more than sufficient. Then again, wasn't he banned for 7 for the same offence in Holland actually? A lot of footballers have huge entitlement issues. If I was Fergie, I would have got rid of Rooney the second he started publicly questioning the club's direction in 2010.

Say what you want about Giggs' personal life, he's a model professional. As is Scholes. On your side, Carragher and Gerrard are too.

[bojangles]

It's only a joke ban because the FA are a corrupt organisation with no consistency. 10 games would be fine if other acts were punished as severely, but they aren't.

[Teedub]

(04-22-2013 06:51 AM)bojangles Wrote:  

Messi? I think he'll play in Argentina after the age of 30, but by then he'll be the greatest ever no doubt. In my mind he already is and I've seen Zidane's and Ronaldo's (who I thought was the best) and latter part of Maradona's career (thanks to my Dad's investment in satellite tech). He won't have to alter how he play's at all, he is Barcelona, people love to deride him by saying he's nothing without Iniesta and Xavi, but this guy was just a young football player 2/3 years ago, its 2013 now, he's been consistently at the top for 4 years and he's only 25 now. He's getting better, he's their top assist, top goalscorer and as seen against PSG even without him on the pitch they still look disjointed. Put him in any team any league and they would win the league.

I'm just going to bring this up, do you actually think (I'm not shaming, I'm genuinely interested in why you think it) if he played for Wigan or something that they'd win the Premiership?

- On a side note, our dude Every10GivesMeA10 is having a good week, Dortmund look great.

[bojangles]

(04-24-2013 02:13 PM)Teedub Wrote:  

(04-22-2013 06:51 AM)bojangles Wrote:  

Messi? I think he'll play in Argentina after the age of 30, but by then he'll be the greatest ever no doubt. In my mind he already is and I've seen Zidane's and Ronaldo's (who I thought was the best) and latter part of Maradona's career (thanks to my Dad's investment in satellite tech). He won't have to alter how he play's at all, he is Barcelona, people love to deride him by saying he's nothing without Iniesta and Xavi, but this guy was just a young football player 2/3 years ago, its 2013 now, he's been consistently at the top for 4 years and he's only 25 now. He's getting better, he's their top assist, top goalscorer and as seen against PSG even without him on the pitch they still look disjointed. Put him in any team any league and they would win the league.

I'm just going to bring this up, do you actually think (I'm not shaming, I'm genuinely interested in why you think it) if he played for Wigan or something that they'd win the Premiership?

- On a side note, our dude Every10GivesMeA10 is having a good week, Dortmund look great.

I meant top half teams, Wigan, they'd finish in european position at the very least.

Love Dortmund's style of play, fast, direct, high pressing, enjoyable encounter so far

[thebassist]

Thoughts on the penalty opportunity?

[Excelsior]

Wow Lewandowski is a machine right now

[Teedub]

If Bayern Munich get Lewandowski, on top of their purchase of Goetze, they'll be bloody unstoppable. The Bundesliga will be the best league in the world soon. No debt, no sugar daddies, they've done it the right way.

[Excelsior]

When it rains, it pours. Penalty time...

...and Lewandoski nails it. 4-1. Wow.

[thebassist]

Oh my god what a game. And what a team. And what a player.

[Excelsior]

(04-24-2013 03:06 PM)Teedub Wrote:  

If Bayern Munich get Lewandowski, on top of their purchase of Goetze, they'll be bloody unstoppable. The Bundesliga will be the best league in the world soon. No debt, no sugar daddies, they've done it the right way.

If you ask me, the Bundesliga already is the best, top to bottom with all things considered. In fact, the the German league system as a whole (from the Bundesliga all the way down to the third tier) is something to behold.

[Teedub]

(04-24-2013 03:12 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

(04-24-2013 03:06 PM)Teedub Wrote:  

If Bayern Munich get Lewandowski, on top of their purchase of Goetze, they'll be bloody unstoppable. The Bundesliga will be the best league in the world soon. No debt, no sugar daddies, they've done it the right way.

If you ask me, the Bundesliga already is the best, top to bottom with all things considered. In fact, the the German league system as a whole (from the Bundesliga all the way down to the third tier) is something to behold.

It is VERY close to going global in the way the Premier League and La Liga are. There's no doubting the quality of the league, it is outstanding, and the fact they have so many German players is really good for the national team. I'm arguing with someone on facebook (beta? lol) because he's saying Bayern are hypocrites for criticizing Chelsea and Man City for spending, whilst they spend also...I explained it is perfectly within their rights as they earned it rather than being bankrolled by a wealthy benefactor. I'm getting nowhere...

Edit - On a side note, this relates to that thread about 'socialism' working in Germany or whatever...They're so efficient. It's a cliche indeed, but it is very accurate. Their organizational skills are outstanding, as in their league structure as you mentioned etc.

[Belgrano]

Haha,

Germany 8 - 1 Spain
(Bundesliga) (La Liga)

[Every10GivesMeA10]

Quote:

Watch and see how both Madrid and Barcelona will get floored tomorrow and Wednesday.

Quote:

1 down, 1 to go.

How are we doing here tonight gentlemen

[Teedub]

(04-24-2013 03:43 PM)Celtic_Austrian Wrote:  

Haha,

Germany 8 - 2 Spain
(Bundesliga) (La Liga)

FIFY

Edit - Oops, sorry. Got my figures wrong!

[Teedub]

This has now become the de facto football thread I reckon. It will be 50 pages plus in no time!

[Wreckingball]

(04-24-2013 03:38 PM)Teedub Wrote:  

(04-24-2013 03:12 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

(04-24-2013 03:06 PM)Teedub Wrote:  

If Bayern Munich get Lewandowski, on top of their purchase of Goetze, they'll be bloody unstoppable. The Bundesliga will be the best league in the world soon. No debt, no sugar daddies, they've done it the right way.

If you ask me, the Bundesliga already is the best, top to bottom with all things considered. In fact, the the German league system as a whole (from the Bundesliga all the way down to the third tier) is something to behold.

It is VERY close to going global in the way the Premier League and La Liga are. There's no doubting the quality of the league, it is outstanding, and the fact they have so many German players is really good for the national team. I'm arguing with someone on facebook (beta? lol) because he's saying Bayern are hypocrites for criticizing Chelsea and Man City for spending, whilst they spend also...I explained it is perfectly within their rights as they earned it rather than being bankrolled by a wealthy benefactor. I'm getting nowhere...

Edit - On a side note, this relates to that thread about 'socialism' working in Germany or whatever...They're so efficient. It's a cliche indeed, but it is very accurate. Their organizational skills are outstanding, as in their league structure as you mentioned etc.

[Every10GivesMeA10]

The Spanish look like they need a bail-out from the Germans. Seen that somewhere before haven't we?

[Nudge]

Wow Borussia are unbelievable in how fast they play, its great to watch. Reminds me of Arsenal in the invincible days. Very surprised Mour didnt park the bus and go for a draw though but still that 3rd goal by Lewandowski was amazing.

[Teedub]

(04-24-2013 04:25 PM)Nudge Wrote:  

Oh and every10 get over yourself you condescending prick.

Mate, chill out, it's only football 'banter'. Sorry, I hate that word. However, he got his predictions right, he can gloat a bit if he wants.

[Nudge]

Haha yeah mine was supposed to be too, guess it doesnt come off that way written. Withdrawn.