[Ovid]

Mystery was the first one to really systematize it, unless you count Ross Jeffries, but the latter's stuff was presented more as a way to hypnotically weave a spell to get a girl hot for you, and many guys felt it was lacking as a standalone method. Sure, guys have been talking to girls, and convincing girls to have sex outside the confines of marriage, for thousands of years. The methods haven't changed much -confidence, demonstrating high value, flirting, persistence, sexual escalation, bullshitting, etc. The difference is that we now have pickup-specific terms for all those concepts, and can talk about them and perfect them, and I believe this is largely due to Mystery Method. He's the guy who broke down game, analyzed it, and reduced it to separate and quantifiable steps that you could be taught in a book, so that you could go from no skill with women to considerable skill with women. Before that, you either had to be a natural (another Mystery term I think) or you had to have friends who were good with women, and a huge drive, in order to watch them, figure out what they were doing, and successfully learn to emulate them. Before Mystery, if you were not a natural, had beta friends, and wanted to improve yourself, your only real recourse was Ovid, my namesake. And unfortunately, "Bang: Roman Empire Edition" is not quite as comprehensive, or applicable to today, as Bang.

[thegmanifesto]

(04-08-2013 09:21 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

I'll defend Mystery.

Bodybuilders have a saying: "Don't go to the guy who is naturally muscular... go to the guy who started off scrawny and had to work for his gains."

What "saying" is that?

(04-08-2013 10:41 PM)Ovid Wrote:  

The methods haven't changed much -confidence, demonstrating high value, flirting, persistence, sexual escalation, bullshitting, etc. The difference is that we now have pickup-specific terms for all those concepts, and can talk about them and perfect them, and I believe this is largely due to Mystery Method.

There has always been terms for it.

They just weren't as dorky before.

I will stop.

I don't want to ruin anyone's idols.

I will leave it at this:

No one who swooped girls in the 90's (when Mystery couldn't swoop) or before, would ever call Mystery a "pioneer".

In fact, in the whole scheme of things, his "career" and time in "The Life" was short like Leprechauns.

"Perseverance, see the fake hustler rapper to them it hurts to hear this.

Oh you went platinum – yeah that’s nice, now let me see you do the same thing twice.

New times, 4 times, then been a couple of more times, please your amateur night is show time."


Kelly Slater doesn't call a guy who caught a couple of waves in 2005 a surfing "pioneer" either.

Rakim doesn't call a guy who put a couple of rhymes together a Hip-Hop "pioneer" either.

Bernard Hopkins doesn't call a guy who sparred a couple of rounds for a few years a boxing "pioneer" either.

You guys need to learn your history. Mystery is a blip at best.

[Divorco]

(04-08-2013 09:08 PM)the_conductor Wrote:  

So? Those were his numbers when he was just starting out in 1998. What were Roosh's numbers in 2001?

Those were his numbers after six years of intense gaming and incessant posting. He posted in September 1998 that he had nine women for the year, so he hadn't improved much. Three years later he was doing workshops. Neil Strauss did a New York Times article on Mystery, then his book The Game became a bestseller and things blew up. PUAHate detailed how Mystery picked up planted actresses on his T.V. show. Basically Mystery distorted the success of his techniques.

I quoted from Roosh's first book in 2007. You will need to ask Roosh how his 2007 numbers have evolved. I think he wrote that his number peaked in 2011 because he has become less motivated and more selective.

[scorpion]

As Samseau said, Mystery deserves props not for being the greatest (and certainly not the first) player, but for being the first guy in the modern era to delve deep into the psychology of attraction, to systematize his insights and effectively communicate them to other men. In that regard, he is most definitely a pioneer.

[babababalot]

Maybe you should lay down some of that history for us G.

All I know is that I was normal guy with beta obsession over a girl. I tried to find out what was wrong with me. I stumbled upon "limerance" on wikipedia, then "ladder theory", then "the game". "Oneitis" - experienced guys could name it and break it down for me. I was fine thereafter.

From there I read Janka's "How to get laid in NY" and Manson's "Models" and moved more towards natural game.

But what's the literature before Mystery. Who else was breaking it down for guys and giving them a toolbox to understand social interactions with hot women.

I don't know that answer. Just because people knew this stuff doesn't mean they laid it down for others. Maybe they were too cool to write about it. That's what I'm getting at.

[the virgin chronicles]

To sum it all up, I think Mystery is like Jesus Christ (and I am not christian)

He started it all. He wrote a book about it.

Years later, some of the stuff in the book is classic, and appears in all other pickup theory, and some of it is total garbage and laughworthy.

And as for the man himself, no one is sure if he's legit (I have my doubts).

[j r]

There have always been dudes with game. There have always been dudes who broke it down for younger men and helped them develop game. Where Mystery is a pioneer is that he took it and put it in a form that could be widely disseminated.

That opened up game to a whole audience of men who weren't naturals or who didn't have some role model to show them the way. Goofy outfits and questionable mental health aside, Mystery deserves props for that.

[MikeCF]

My view is in between Samseau and G.

I read MM and "The Game" stuff and that stuff just screwed me up and prevented me from getting laid.

I just started being my agro self and relying on the lifestyle I lived and it all worked out.

But MM did a lot for guys so I can't hate. Just not my scene and actually cost me a lot of bangs. When you're a guy who has it together, girls think it's weird when you do the pea cocking shit. It just doesn't look right.

MM is sort like Game 1.0 where a guy would tell dorks, "Be a dork. Sleep in someone's closet. (That's where one guy lived in The Game.) Go out for hours at a time, several nights a week, and run sets. Don't buy drinks (you can't afford to, anyway). You'll get laid every now and then. Game!"

My game (once I threw away that garbage MM shit) was: Be productive with your time. Stop being a loser who can't afford rent and has to sleep in someone's closet. Get your pathetic ass to the gym and stop being a skinny dork or fat fuck. Spend your time doing productive shit, make friends with guys who have hook-ups, and then when you go out you will pull. Plus when you don't pull or don't feel like going out, the lifestyle and attendant trappings will be there.

It took a while but my view is becoming more widely accepted.

[poutsara]

(04-09-2013 01:29 AM)MikeCF Wrote:  

My game (once I threw away that garbage MM shit) was: Be productive with your time. Stop being a loser who can't afford rent and has to sleep in someone's closet. Get your pathetic ass to the gym and stop being a skinny dork or fat fuck. Spend your time doing productive shit, make friends with guys who have hook-ups, and then when you go out you will pull. Plus when you don't pull or don't feel like going out, the lifestyle and attendant trappings will be there.

Life game. This is what I call maintaining strong fundamentals.

[All or Nothing]

(04-09-2013 01:29 AM)MikeCF Wrote:  

I read MM and "The Game" stuff and that stuff just screwed me up and prevented me from getting laid.

The exact same thing happened to me right after reading Mystery Method and The Game.

I started a square zero reading MM a couple months after turning 18. I had no social intelligence, and I really had no understanding of a lot of basic social rules.

MM actually convinced me that if I did not know some complex stories, and how to do goofy magic tricks, there was no way a woman could possibly be attracted to me.

It took me awhile to realize that attractive men are simply men who are socially normal, know how to effectively hold a conversation and have a pair of balls.

[XXL]

Nobody had such clear system for getting laid before him. All of the so called naturals depend their game on external stuff like alcohol / looks / environment / connections / girls's signals / etc. Mystery was the first guy who showed how some dude can go out today and create an illusion of attractive type of guy. He was the hope for the hopeless ones.

Personally I find following MM from start to finish a highwire act of a decade. But he got plenty of cool little tips & tricks to can use here and there.

[w00t]

Those numbers are from 98 I believe nowadays he has over 350 lays and is pretty selective with the chicks too.
But now he has a baby and its game over

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

Should we diss Roosh if it ever turns out that he doesn't bang more than 10 chicks a year? Good advice is good advice. And people boasting their 50 bangs a year here are forgetting that the male median or sex partners per year is about 1 at most. Which one of those guys wouldn't be ecstatic if they read some Mystery and increased their number of bangs per year to 3 or 4?

[Tex Pro]

I think Mystery deserves credit for coming up with a clear, systematic way of picking up girls. In that respect, he was a pioneer. Before Mystery, the closest anybody came to a systematic approach to picking up girls was Ross Jeffries and David Deangelo, and their stuff wasn't as easy to follow or replicate. That is why I think Mystery continues to inspire people. Sure, there have always been players (to some extent), but they rarely wrote down their methods. It is easy to forget nowadays with the ubiquity of game info that there was a time when if you asked "How do I go about picking up chicks in [insert city or country]?" the most you would get is the response "Just be yourself." Mystery was instrumental in starting the "scientific process" of looking at what works and what doesn't in regards to game. For that, he deserves praise.

[soup]

(04-08-2013 08:35 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

I don't want to sound like I am hating, because I don't care about this guy.

But what is all this "pioneer" talk?

People didn't pick up girls before Mystery?

I get that people relate to the whole "dork turned ladies man" thing, and yeah, it is a great story, but to say this guy is a "pioneer" is ridiculous.

Everyone who realizes the need for game will pay in some way, either with time, money, or both.

Mystery wasn't a pioneer of game. He was a pioneer of the mass marketing and sharing of game.

He's probably the most famous pickup artist who ever lived.

I know girls who say he's hot not because of anything we think works- they like that he's all nerdy about game.

Like Heartiste, the guy could articulate what was happening in a way that was entertaining and charismatic. If charisma isn't game, then what is?

It doesn't make sense for manly guy to be wearing a boa unless he's gay. But, Mystery preached congruence, so don't blame him if you tried to crudely apply some of his method while ignoring other aspects of it.

Truth is, there's a lot of good shit in the older game posts online. Sure, there was an over-emphasis on technique above content, but I feel like we rarely have any good tech/strategy threads around here anymore. It's turned into guys complaining about feminism (Don't get me wrong there's a place for that), or espousing a "do this one thing and all that other shit will fall into place" mentality.

In my experience, I've taken and rejected from as many sources as I can get my hands on. You've written a book on how to get women? Let me see it. I can probably tell from the first few pages if it's worth reading, but occasionally there are diamonds in the rough.

I've even gotten a lot from some of the mass market PUA companies.

I don't care about your faith, ideology, or hope. I do care about game and improving my odds with women and life. All this talking shit about people is for what?

Just because you had a bad experience trying to implement someone else'a ideas doesn't mean that other people will.

Game is moving from one size fits all to custom tailored; there are some basic/classic stuff that are the bedrock of all, and then there are personal differences that need to be accounted for.

[Atilla]

(04-08-2013 11:25 PM)Divorco Wrote:  

PUAHate detailed how Mystery picked up planted actresses on his T.V. show. Basically Mystery distorted the success of his techniques.

I remember one of the girls Mystery was talking to was fat and ugly, and it’s highly unlikely that she was hired. It wouldn't at all surprise me if the other ones were planted though.

I like Mystery, but I don’t respect how he sells this idea that his magical game will get any man lusted after by every 10 on the planet, even if she’s taken. For most PUAs, any time a man gets turned down, there’s some neglected part of his game that’s criticized, like his body language or story-telling or one of 100,000 other things he could have done wrong. I’m not at all disputing that these are important areas to work on, or that one’s game shouldn’t constantly be worked on, but having great game isn’t going to perform miracles. In fact, most of the PUA students and coaches competing on Keys to the VIP seemed to fail miserably.

Compare these types of PUAs with Roosh, who writes about his failures all the time, makes no excuses, and emphasizes that even if you practice excellent game, you won’t consistently have success without getting shot down at least as frequently. Instead telling everyone to blame themselves for microscopic elements of their game whenever they’re rejected, Roosh’s works drill in the fact that reaching one’s full potential can only come with a lot of failure, and that this should be embraced to gain a competitive edge over men who can’t accept the pain.

Mystery's students would probably benefit much more by watching him get blown out of sets repeatedly before finally landing some hotties.

[bojangles]

I like him because I still follow the basics of his method. It's ingrained in me now. I'm not fussed about all the extra pomp and routines added on, the basics work, and they work for everyone.

[Moma]

I've never read this Mystery method. Does anyone have a copy?

[thegmanifesto]

(04-09-2013 12:03 AM)babababalot Wrote:  

Maybe you should lay down some of that history for us G.

I have been writing about it almost non-stop since 2005.

----

Ok, serious questions.

For the guys that idolize Mystery, are you guys really young?

Did any of you get a lot of girls before 2005?

In the 90's?

Because if you answer yes to the first question, and no to the second two, then it makes sense.

Otherwise, you just don't know your history. Which would also explain it.

[el mechanico]

Quote:

Did any of you get a lot of girls before 2005?

Yes

Quote:

In the 90's?

Yes

The 90s were the gravy train. Mystery's numbers are pathetic

[MrXY]

(04-09-2013 04:05 AM)soup Wrote:  

Truth is, there's a lot of good shit in the older game posts online. Sure, there was an over-emphasis on technique above content, but I feel like we rarely have any good tech/strategy threads around here anymore. It's turned into guys complaining about feminism (Don't get me wrong there's a place for that), or espousing a "do this one thing and all that other shit will fall into place" mentality.

I've been thinking the same thing

[scotian]

(04-09-2013 09:00 AM)MrXY Wrote:  

(04-09-2013 04:05 AM)soup Wrote:  

Truth is, there's a lot of good shit in the older game posts online. Sure, there was an over-emphasis on technique above content, but I feel like we rarely have any good tech/strategy threads around here anymore. It's turned into guys complaining about feminism (Don't get me wrong there's a place for that), or espousing a "do this one thing and all that other shit will fall into place" mentality.

I've been thinking the same thing

You could always try learning how to fuck more girls the way I did and go out with your friends who fuck women all the time and listen and observe what they did.

Damn I miss the 90s and early 2000s, the good old days!

[el mechanico]

(04-09-2013 09:18 AM)scotian Wrote:  

(04-09-2013 09:00 AM)MrXY Wrote:  

(04-09-2013 04:05 AM)soup Wrote:  

Truth is, there's a lot of good shit in the older game posts online. Sure, there was an over-emphasis on technique above content, but I feel like we rarely have any good tech/strategy threads around here anymore. It's turned into guys complaining about feminism (Don't get me wrong there's a place for that), or espousing a "do this one thing and all that other shit will fall into place" mentality.

I've been thinking the same thing

You could always try learning how to fuck more girls the way I did and go out with your friends who fuck women all the time and listen and observe what they did.

Damn I miss the 90s and early 2000s, the good old days!

I've wrote shit here that's way easier and gets better results than any nightclub in the states. Are you trying? Should I remake the same threads?

[beta_plus]

Mystery's big contribution was making all of this understandable, teachable and consistent to introverted nerds. Yeah, he repackaged a lot of stuff (including Dale Carnegie), but that's what a lot of making good products is (look at Apple).

Before The Game and Mystery Method came out, the stuff out there often wasn't that easy to follow or contained serious errors. Has better stuff come out since? Yes. But suddenly you had a benchmark so you could tell if you were being scammed.

As well, I have to give him major props for cutting his teeth in Toronto-Occupied-Ontario. Many men, before and after him, just give up in despair.

[scotian]

(04-09-2013 09:37 AM)el mechanico Wrote:  

(04-09-2013 09:18 AM)scotian Wrote:  

(04-09-2013 09:00 AM)MrXY Wrote:  

(04-09-2013 04:05 AM)soup Wrote:  

Truth is, there's a lot of good shit in the older game posts online. Sure, there was an over-emphasis on technique above content, but I feel like we rarely have any good tech/strategy threads around here anymore. It's turned into guys complaining about feminism (Don't get me wrong there's a place for that), or espousing a "do this one thing and all that other shit will fall into place" mentality.

I've been thinking the same thing

You could always try learning how to fuck more girls the way I did and go out with your friends who fuck women all the time and listen and observe what they did.

Damn I miss the 90s and early 2000s, the good old days!

I've wrote shit here that's way easier and gets better results than any nightclub in the states. Are you trying? Should I remake the same threads?

Emech, I think you need to break it down in a thread of its own and have all of us guys who learned the old school way contribute. I was fortunate enough to earn my stripes before it all changed (late 90s/early 2000s): smart phones, social media, smoking bans, and the entire concept and industry of "game".

I'm not saying that the information on-line is BS, especially this forum is good because guys here tend to call out the nonsense, but I'll stick by what I said before, find guys who fuck lots of girls and hang out with them.

I'm still fairly new to the concept of game, less than two years I've been reading into this stuff but still to this day the best tips I've learned were from fellow forum members. Emech taught me about casino game 101 and how to survive in a tough rend neck Florida bar, WEDO gave me invaluable insights into gaming Colombian women and most recently THC and 20nation taught me about busting through Filipina girl's LMR (tips I wish I knew years ago because they can apply to all women).

Lately, I haven't spent a lot of time with my old friends who taught me the basics about picking up women back in the day, I've spent more time with forum members who fuck lots of women.

So get off the computer and find those type of guys and also do what MikeCF recommends!