[TheMan]

To quote a line from the article this is not race baiting [race trolling].
Just read through and you'll get it

Hat tip to Athlone, great article bud

[TheMachinist]

That shit has so much truth in it some heads are gonna EXPLODE!!!

[Roosh]

Yeah respect to Athlone for a great article. I've never seen so many "great post" comments in a long time.

[vinman]

Concise, and to the point. Well done.

[TheMachinist]

All that being said how do you right a sinking ship?

[Vicious]

(01-03-2013 04:54 PM)TheMachinist Wrote:  

All that being said how do you right a sinking ship?

You'd probably need some kind of catharsis event. Whether it be the zombie apocalypse, complete financial meltdown, a major major political turnaround (and following change of national policies) etc

[TheMachinist]

(01-03-2013 06:26 PM)Vicious Wrote:  

(01-03-2013 04:54 PM)TheMachinist Wrote:  

All that being said how do you right a sinking ship?

You'd probably need some kind of catharsis event. Whether it be the zombie apocalypse, complete financial meltdown, a major major political turnaround (and following change of national policies) etc

Yeah I'm thinking the same thing.In the past it was the great World Wars that righted the ship but war of those proportions these days would be the end of man kind.
After taking the red-pill I REALLY feel like I'm living in the Matrix.It's like I've been exposed to this great truth that most people I know just can't accept.I've learned to not even broach most subjects discussed on here with even the most intelligent people because it just turns into them calling me all kinds of pretty fucked up things just for telling it like it is.I guess truth is so painful people just don't wanna hear it.

[durangotang]

Athlone, another great article. What do you attribute as the cause of the disintegration of the black nuclear family at a faster rate than white families? Just a quick search and it seems like from the early 1960's it went from 7.7% to over 70% in the mid 1990s - an almost 10x increase in 30 years. Was it the LBJ welfare state that subsidized out of wedlock births? I would imagine that has to be it, but perhaps there is something more. Is there anything cultural that you can put your finger on? Did the black community swallow the tenets of cultural marxism hook line and sinker, embracing feminism as enthusiastically as racial politics? The cultural revolution and the civil rights movements both occurred, not coincidentally, at the same time. Any thoughts?

[Excelsior]

(01-03-2013 07:51 PM)durangotang Wrote:  

Athlone, another great article. What do you attribute as the cause of the disintegration of the black nuclear family at a faster rate than white families? Just a quick search and it seems like from the early 1960's it went from 7.7% to over 70% in the mid 1990s - an almost 10x increase in 30 years. Was it the LBJ welfare state that subsidized out of wedlock births? I would imagine that has to be it, but perhaps there is something more. Is there anything cultural that you can put your finger on? Did the black community swallow the tenets of cultural marxism hook line and sinker, embracing feminism as enthusiastically as racial politics? The cultural revolution and the civil rights movements both occurred, not coincidentally, at the same time. Any thoughts?

It was a combination of the welfare state (specifically the tenets that incentivized single motherhood), the beginning of the drug war, and plain old racism (discrimination in the GI Bill, redlining, etc).

1. The welfare state obviously made single motherhood much more practical and in some ways preferable to the nuclear family model. Feminism played a crucial role in this and did black folks no favors. When folks warned of the concerns inherent to the promotion of single motherhood, many opposed it by applying feminist talking points to the struggle of black women ("they can do it on their own!!!"), which was impractical.

Feminists were not willing to consider the importance of male role models, and were all too happy to allow blacks to become the sacrificial lambs at the progressive altar to the "independent woman". Black women paid the early price so white women (for whom feminism was really intended and to whom it still generally caters predominantly to) would not have to.

Feminists used black women to make a point that blacks would gain nothing from making, and whose consequences only blacks would feel (at first, anyway-whites are unexpectedly catching up now).

I think that in the civil rights movement, feminists saw an opportunity to advance their own aims, and they did so splendidly at the expense of minorities.

2. The drug war's impact was obvious-it essentially battered the black poor and made them more desperate than they'd already been. It also greatly enhanced incarceration rates, though there is a discriminatory element there that has enhanced that.

Long story short, though, drugs did a number on the community. They annihilated my home country (Jamaica) too.

3. The racism angle provides perhaps the largest reason for the current wealth gap between blacks and whites in the USA.
Following WW2, many benefits were given to formerly lower class Americans with the aim of enabling the creation of a new middle class. Massive government initiative made this possible by subsidizing the provision of home loans, employment, higher education, and other benefits.

This worked quite well-the white middle class we know today is a direct product of these efforts.

Blacks, however, were largely left out of this due to a combination of day-to-day discrimination (fewer checks on that existed back then-no political correctness to reference) and legislation, which in the southern states where most blacks lived often served to blunt or just plain erase the impact of any benefits on their community.

Redlining, meanwhile, kept blacks out of the housing market that would, over the next half a century, come to comprise the bulk of white American wealth and provide a foundation for the vast swaths of suburban, middle-class America we take for granted today.

The "American Dream" was essentially not an option for African-Americans until well after the civil rights movement had ended and the earlier obstacles I mentioned (welfare and the drug war) had enjoyed plenty of time to do damage.

Combine all of these things and the result is modern black America.

[WestIndianArchie]

(01-03-2013 04:08 PM)TheMan Wrote:  

To quote a line from the article this is not race baiting [race trolling].
Just read through and you'll get it

Hat tip to Athlone, great article bud

Convo degenerated from
"this is the future of white america"
to
"this is what's wrong with black people"

Everybody came with their pre-planned agenda and just cut and paste without grappling with the actual topic.

I see it all the time, and I don't think it's possible to get most people to break out of their mental models for even a second. That's part of the problem with the Game in general. Dudes already have an answer for everything, before they even hear the question.

WIA

[Samseau]

First off, great job Athlone.

Second,

Quote:

Convo degenerated from
"this is the future of white america"
to
"this is what's wrong with black people"

Yes. The problem with blogs (and I kinda hate this aspect) is that people start to use the comment section as a conversation board. It's pretty lame and low quality.

It's why I prefer forums like this much much more.

On the other hand, try to look at the comment section as a way to sample public opinion, or in this case with the Return of Kings, use it to sample public "red-pill" opinion.

Third,

Quote:

3. The racism angle provides perhaps the largest reason for the current wealth gap between blacks and whites in the USA.

The problem with this claim, Athlone, is that virtue is not something produced by wealth. If wealth produced people with morals, then whites wouldn't have treated blacks like shit in the first place.

Thus you cannot say that racism produced the downfall of black America. Historically, all to often it is the opposite: the oppressed classes usually have the best morals and most modest people with strong family values.

Ancient Christians and Jews are excellent examples of this.

[Excelsior]

(01-03-2013 10:29 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

Third,

Quote:

3. The racism angle provides perhaps the largest reason for the current wealth gap between blacks and whites in the USA.

The problem with this claim, Athlone, is that virtue is not something produced by wealth. If wealth produced people with morals, then whites wouldn't have treated blacks like shit in the first place.

I didn't say that wealth produced virtue. I said that the current state of black america is related in part to certain developments that were driven by racism. The wealth gap is one of the results of this.

Quote:

Thus you cannot say that racism produced the downfall of black America.

I didn't. I said that it played a role in fostering the current state of things.

[Samseau]

(01-03-2013 10:37 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

(01-03-2013 10:29 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

Third,

Quote:

3. The racism angle provides perhaps the largest reason for the current wealth gap between blacks and whites in the USA.

The problem with this claim, Athlone, is that virtue is not something produced by wealth. If wealth produced people with morals, then whites wouldn't have treated blacks like shit in the first place.

I didn't say that wealth produced virtue. I said that the current state of black america is related in part to certain developments that were driven by racism. The wealth gap is one of the results of this.

Quote:

Thus you cannot say that racism produced the downfall of black America.

I didn't. I said that it played a role in fostering the current state of things.

And by the current state of black America you are referring to how bad it is, yes?

Durangotang asked you what caused the downfall of the Black nuclear family, and you listed racism as one of those issues. My claim is that racism cannot be one of those issues because historically racism and discrimination have not always caused the disintegration of nuclear families.

Here's a good case in point: During times of slavery, black family values were strong!

[ColSpanker]

Stanley Crouch warned the problems afflicting Black America would eventually infect White America. He made the statement fifteen years ago and it was prophetic.

[Excelsior]

(01-03-2013 10:42 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

Durangotang asked you what caused the downfall of the Black nuclear family, and you listed racism as one of those issues. My claim is that racism cannot be one of those issues because historically racism and discrimination have not always caused the disintegration of nuclear families.

Here's a good case in point: During times of slavery, black family values were strong!

The large scale exclusion of blacks from the primary avenues of wealth creation during the middle of the 20th century enhanced the impact of the other two factors I mentioned (welfare and drugs), and in fact was a primary reason why those two factors were so effective. A large, prosperous black middle class would not have been as easily torn apart by welfare policy and not nearly as devastated by drugs.

By preventing the creation of that prosperous middle class, racism also helped to accelerate the disintegration of black social structures, the nuclear family included. This is why I include it among the issues I listed earlier.

Also, to further break down your claim:

Quote:

My claim is that racism cannot be one of those issues because historically racism and discrimination have not always caused the disintegration of nuclear families.

Not always =/= never. You're saying that something cannot ever be a cause simply because it is not always a cause in every instance. This is flawed reasoning.

The fact that racism has not always caused nuclear family disintegration does not mean that it is incapable of doing so in any individual instance. It merely means that it will not do so in every single instance.

In this case, the fact that racism has not always caused a breakdown in family structure does not mean that it could not have done so at one point in time, as I outlined above.

To further illustrate this:

Factor A has not always caused Event B. However, in the 100 known instances we have had to observe the interaction of these two variables, Factor A has in fact triggered Event B 65 times.

In this hypothetical, Factor A does cause Event B most of the time. The original statement, however (Factor A has not always caused Event B) is still true.

Even if we had only observed Factor A triggering Event B 10 times our of 100, we could still come to this conclusion: Factor A has not always caused Event B and in fact most often does not, but it is certainly capable of doing so.

It is possible for a condition to be sufficient without being necessary-necessity is not a prerequisite for sufficiency. In this case, racism was sufficient as a condition to help trigger a breakdown in nuclear family structure, but it wasn't necessary or solitary.

[TheMan]

(01-03-2013 10:56 PM)ColSpanker Wrote:  

Stanley Crouch warned the problems afflicting Black America would eventually infect White America. He made the statement fifteen years ago and it was prophetic.

The point of this article is not that the problems necessarily originate in black america (as your use of the word "infect" alludes to).

Its that Black America was the first to fall due to conditions that affect all western citizens regardless of background--and so can be used to glimpse what is in store for everyone else.

[Samseau]

(01-03-2013 11:40 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

(01-03-2013 10:42 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

Durangotang asked you what caused the downfall of the Black nuclear family, and you listed racism as one of those issues. My claim is that racism cannot be one of those issues because historically racism and discrimination have not always caused the disintegration of nuclear families.

Here's a good case in point: During times of slavery, black family values were strong!

The large scale exclusion of blacks from the primary avenues of wealth creation during the middle of the 20th century enhanced the impact of the other two factors I mentioned (welfare and drugs), and in fact was a primary reason why those two factors were so effective. A large, prosperous black middle class would not have been as easily torn apart by welfare policy and not nearly as devastated by drugs.

By preventing the creation of that prosperous middle class, racism also helped to accelerate the disintegration of black social structures, the nuclear family included. This is why I include it among the issues I listed earlier.

Also, to further break down your claim:

Quote:

My claim is that racism cannot be one of those issues because historically racism and discrimination have not always caused the disintegration of nuclear families.

Not always =/= never. You're saying that something cannot ever be a cause simply because it is not always a cause in every instance. This is flawed reasoning.

The fact that racism has not always caused nuclear family disintegration does not mean that it is incapable of doing so in any individual instance. It merely means that it will not do so in every single instance.

Aw dude, I understand this. Trust me I used the words "cannot" and "not always" on purpose.

I'm sure there are examples of horribly racist policies in countries of past that actively destroyed communities and families.

However, my claim is that blacks aren't victims of the same kind of racism because racism in American used to be much worse, like 100 times worse, than it was during the 1960's.

Thus how could the blacks be victims of a lighter form of racism if the consequences of said racism are actually worse than they were under the harsher forms of racism?

Ockham's razor says racism cannot be an issue here.

[Excelsior]

(01-04-2013 01:49 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

Aw dude, I understand this. Trust me I used the words "cannot" and "not always" on purpose.

I'm sure there are examples of horribly racist policies in countries of past that actively destroyed communities and families.

However, my claim is that blacks aren't victims of the same kind of racism because racism in American used to be much worse, like 100 times worse, than it was during the 1960's.

Thus how could the blacks be victims of a lighter form of racism if the consequences of said racism are actually worse than they were under the harsher forms of racism?

Ockham's razor says racism cannot be an issue here.

...I'm just going to leave this alone now.

[bojangles]

(01-03-2013 06:26 PM)Vicious Wrote:  

(01-03-2013 04:54 PM)TheMachinist Wrote:  

All that being said how do you right a sinking ship?

You'd probably need some kind of catharsis event. Whether it be the zombie apocalypse, complete financial meltdown, a major major political turnaround (and following change of national policies) etc

death of many beta enablers?

[Kwisatz]

As a 35 year old educated, articulate, well travelled Black American I cant help but agree with the parallels some pointed out between teaching a man Game vs. his seeking to learn it and teaching Black America ways to correct our path(s) vs. Black America seeking it out.

[Vicious]

(01-04-2013 07:02 AM)bojangles Wrote:  

(01-03-2013 06:26 PM)Vicious Wrote:  

(01-03-2013 04:54 PM)TheMachinist Wrote:  

All that being said how do you right a sinking ship?

You'd probably need some kind of catharsis event. Whether it be the zombie apocalypse, complete financial meltdown, a major major political turnaround (and following change of national policies) etc

death of many beta enablers?

No, deaths do not solve anything if the overall mindset of the people are not challenged. "Beta enablers" are only a symptom, not the cause.

[Teedub]

Athlone, I am new to this forum so I don't know how often you produce such good work, but that was a brilliant article and very thought provoking. I wish I could send it to my friends for them to read, but I would only be met with bemused emails in wonderment that I was sending them intellectual writings instead of stupid memes. Even if they did read it it would only upset their blue-pill mentality about women and feminism and the decline of men.

[tenderman100]

Today, in 2012, it has never been a better time for an African American male to get an education and decide to enter mainstream economic life.

I know. I consult with a lot of companies, big and small. A close relative of mine is the Chief Human Resources officer of a publicly traded company. These firms would LOVE to hire African American males with college degrees, requisite skills, and obvious intelligence. I bet if Athlone walked into most Fortune 500 companies, he would get hired on the spot.

But Athlone is the exception rather than the rule. The marginalization of academic achievement inside the black young male community that Athlone talks about is so embedded that few will take that mainstream path.

The set of circumstances about which Athlone writes about is tragic in so many ways, but this particular aspect of the tragic drama is truly awful. Two or three generations of African American males -- many of whom could be tremendously productive -- are consigning themselves to be economic flotsam and jetsam. And of course the black politicians and pundits -- the Rangels, the Jacksons, the Sharptons, the Maxine Waters of the world -- are either not interested or totally ineffectual in doing some thing about this.

[theIVth]

Yea that piece was definitely on point bro

[UrbanNerd]

Athlone....

Excellent article and right on point. If you are British-Jamaican-now-living-in-USA, I cannot tell because you covered everything like you were originally from here.

I can relate to many of the comments made in this thread (and the other blog). African-american who always did well in academics but was ostracized from his african-american peers...UNTIL I put on some spikes and ran a few 100-meter dashes or caught a few passes on the football field (still nowhere close to being as good in sports as academics). I always kept "2 circles" of friends...the academic ones and the non-academic/same-ole-negative-cultural ones. Black math majors were not really popular....LOL.