[Sphere]

This is a derivative from an ongoing thread about aloofness vs. attraction.

The subject of using Romance as an attractor was raised and it deserves it's own thread.

I posted this:

(12-11-2012 12:54 PM)Sphere Wrote:  

Providing "the boyfriend experience" has always been my go-to move. The challenge for me as an ethical guy is that I get sucked into it. Once I've got a girl on the hook it feels really shabby to just blow them off. I've done it with lesser quality girls and I still feel shabby although all of them have at one point or another acknowledged that they probably can't hold my interest.

So the question becomes, how much or how often do you use Romance or The Boyfriend Experience in seduction when compared with just flat out going for the bang, ONS, SNL or whatever?

I also posted a secondary question in that thread.

(12-11-2012 12:54 PM)Sphere Wrote:  

How do you play the end of that game out? If you're playing the romance game how do you then get what you want and move on? I understand the "pump", it's the "dump" I struggle with given that I only use that move on LTR-worthy girls.

Still digesting the blue pill perhaps?

How does the "dump" play out for those of you that use Romance or The Boyfriend Experience in seduction?

Comments?

I'm quite sure the forum will call me on this if it's already been beaten to death.

[j r]

You have use this successfully with girls who were not already attracted to you?

I don't see this working, at least not in North America or Western Europe. Beta orbiters are consistently giving attractive girls the "boyfriend experience" by taking them on dates, buying the gifts and showering them with gifts and compliments. None of that will help you build attraction.

[Surreyman]

...

[Sphere]

(12-11-2012 03:37 PM)j r Wrote:  

You have use this successfully with girls who were not already attracted to you?

I don't see this working, at least not in North America or Western Europe. Beta orbiters are consistently giving attractive girls the "boyfriend experience" by taking them on dates, buying the gifts and showering them with gifts and compliments. None of that will help you build attraction.

Perhaps I didn't lay this out well enough. This is not about ONS material, this is about banging girls that take more than one or two dates to get to. You've never banged on the third date? What was it about the third date that worked that didn't work on the first two? In my mind it's the possibility that you would make a decent boyfriend. You've never played into that? It works like a goddam charm.

[Duke Castile]

Sphere - I understand. I absolutely HATE hurting someone's feelings. Especially when all they want to do is be with you. But DO NOT WORRY about those girls. They will be fine in a matter of DAYS. Emotions are like the weather with them. In 1 month she'll be telling her friends about some other guy she met and she's all up his ass.

Send the girl a text "I'm sorry this isn't working out for me. I don't think we're right for each other." Whatever she writes back just say "Good luck with everything" and let that be the end.

Honestly though if you were playing it as straight as you say you do, from the beginning you would tell them you don't want anything serious and if they're cool with that, then you can keep seeing each other.

[highandtight]

(12-11-2012 04:11 PM)Sphere Wrote:  

(12-11-2012 03:37 PM)j r Wrote:  

You have use this successfully with girls who were not already attracted to you?

I don't see this working, at least not in North America or Western Europe. Beta orbiters are consistently giving attractive girls the "boyfriend experience" by taking them on dates, buying the gifts and showering them with gifts and compliments. None of that will help you build attraction.

Perhaps I didn't lay this out well enough. This is not about ONS material, this is about banging girls that take more than one or two dates to get to. You've never banged on the third date? What was it about the third date that worked that didn't work on the first two? In my mind it's the possibility that you would make a decent boyfriend. You've never played into that? It works like a goddam charm.

Dude I am with you 100% on this. Just about all of the girls I bang are after 2-3 dates. Sometimes even 4(!) Most of these girls just simply are not DTF on a first date. Not saying they've never done it, but it's pretty damn rare for them.

And I don't really mind it that much. I kind of like the buildup and I like to keep my girls around for a while for a few repeat bangs.

This is just what works for me, maybe you, too. I simply don't consistently get the kind of quality I'm looking for when out trolling for one-nighters.

[Duke Castile]

I don't think you guys are getting that you can take a girl through the whole dating ritual in one night and bang a girl that wouldn't normally consider fucking on the first date.

[Sphere]

(12-11-2012 04:35 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

I don't think you guys are getting that you can take a girl through the whole dating ritual in one night and bang a girl that wouldn't normally consider fucking on the first date.

I'm quite sure I haven't gotten it yet with quality girls. I've had some less than desirable SNLs but not with anything I would consider a keeper. Maybe it's my mindset that's the problem. Mind you, I'm 50 and more women in my demographic are absolutely busted than you want to contemplate.

[xsplat]

So Fisto, is what you are saying something like "girls don't really get very romantically involved. You can't even hurt them much - they'll grieve for a few days, or a week max. There is no such variable as romance at all. Girls don't feel that, to any real or deep extent"

I've known ex girlfriends to wake up crying every day for six months. And go to sleep that way too. And to pine for me for YEARS. And years. And years. And I've felt my share of deep grief myself. Sometimes people pair bond and one of the mates dies. Are you saying women can't feel pair bonding or grief?

Dude, uh... How do I put this to you tactfully.

I can't.

[kenny_powers]

(12-11-2012 04:35 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

I don't think you guys are getting that you can take a girl through the whole dating ritual in one night and bang a girl that wouldn't normally consider fucking on the first date.

Fisto is right. Read this post:

http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-8681.h...ght=recipe

It has worked for me, I've had to expand it it to 2-3 even a 4th date last week. But this is what you should be doing EVERY SINGLE FIRST DATE

[xsplat]

(12-11-2012 06:14 PM)kenny_powers Wrote:  

(12-11-2012 04:35 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

I don't think you guys are getting that you can take a girl through the whole dating ritual in one night and bang a girl that wouldn't normally consider fucking on the first date.

Fisto is right. Read this post:

http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-8681.h...ght=recipe

It has worked for me, I've had to expand it it to 2-3 even a 4th date last week. But this is what you should be doing EVERY SINGLE FIRST DATE

I have 5 times had a girl sleep with me on the first date, only to never leave. One day melted into the next, until the next thing you know she's quit her job and moved in full time. Strong passionate romance was initiated on the first date, and sometimes the girl lived with me for years.

And when I left, sometimes there were all the signs from her speech and actions and her friends and family of a very deep and lasting grief.

And I've also had strong bonds formed where sex happened on the 3rd, or even 5th date.

The point is, romance is undervalued and even denied here.

Why?

And for those who think that romance can't happen in the west, you are right. It can't happen. To YOU. The variable isn't the girls, it's you. Take that same you to another country, and you'll have the same experience.

[Duke Castile]

Xsplat,

What I'm saying is that she'll get over it very quickly. I know you like to market yourself as this deep romantic and great man, good for you. I've read your stuff and it's always pleading for other's to come over to your brand of seduction. Like you're savoring a piece of chocolate and fine wine. But how do I put this tactfully?

I don't believe you get laid at all.

[xsplat]

(12-11-2012 06:37 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

Xsplat,

What I'm saying is that she'll get over it very quickly. I know you like to market yourself as this deep romantic and great man, good for you. I've read your stuff and it's always pleading for other's to come over to your brand of seduction. Like you're savoring a piece of chocolate and fine wine. But how do I put this tactfully?

I don't believe you get laid at all.

I'm not concerned what you believe about my life, I'm concerned what are your beliefs about women.

You are implying that they don't feel romance, or if they do, it's of a very shallow and fleeting kind.

Right?

I understand that men have different interests and needs and styles. I'm not seeking converts. What I am doing is trying to erase the type of willful ignorance that you espouse.

Some guys aren't into romance. That's cool. But you claim that romance is not even an option at all, for all men who live in the west, at least, and possibly for all men anywhere. Because it's not in the nature of women to feel romantic.

[Duke Castile]

Xplat, don't be concerned with my beliefs. And quit trying to derail every thread you post on.

[xsplat]

(12-11-2012 06:45 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

Xplat, don't be concerned with my beliefs. And quit trying to derail every thread you post on.

From the OP:
"The subject of using Romance as an attractor was raised and it deserves it's own thread."

You seem to be claiming that romance is not a real attractor, as women don't much feel it.

On topic?

Or would you rather talk about if I get laid or not?

Nice tactic, by the way. When I bring in the data of my personal experience with romance, just invalidate all of it. That should keep your ego protecting beliefs solidly fixed for another day. It's not that women don't love YOU, it's that they are incapable of love!

[highandtight]

(12-11-2012 04:35 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

I don't think you guys are getting that you can take a girl through the whole dating ritual in one night and bang a girl that wouldn't normally consider fucking on the first date.

I've had plenty of one night deals. But a large part of one night success is finding the girls that are DTF, and not wasting time on the ones that aren't. This necessarily means that there are lots of girls that are not DTF on a single night escapade.

I get that every girl is down for this at some point in their life but it may only be once or twice. In fact I think that's pretty common; most of the girls I bang have had one or two ONS to try it out, but it's just flat not on the table for most of these girls outside of that (typically very youthful) adventure.

I'm not saying I'm Obi Wan master game guy here or anything, but you have to admit there are huge, huge percentages of girls that are just not going to put out on night one, for a variety of reasons.

[Duke Castile]

xplat,

Reread the op. He's referring to a previous thread, you'll notice it says "So now the question becomes..." And no, I don't really care about your sexual activity. It seems like most of these gentlemen are in the US or Western Europe anyway so your advice isn't really applicable it it? After all I believe you yourself said you don't get laid over here.

Moving on:

There is a difference in quality (majority of instantly "dtf" girls in a club is 1-10 vs the 8 you meet for drinks) when you are trying to pick up girls for a one night stand in a club venue type atmosphere vs going out on a date and trying to get a single night lay.

I'm referring to the date scenario to single night lay scenario but in both cases, you are trying to put them through the courting ritual, some stuff can be skipped (with DTF girls) and other things have to be repeated but I don't believe that the hotter the girl the more difficult.

I think it would rather involve a girl who's gone through her "slutty" phase and has been on multiple SNL's that would be harder to fuck on the 1st date. She's been there and wants something more meaningful and wants to make up for past slutty actions(hamster think) It's another reason to get them younger IMO.

They STILL have the same hormones that can overide her inner resistance by having a good time and feeling a "connection" WITH attraction. Even if it's a two or three dates till you bang it's the same mindset as KP pointed out. I think you should be going for the bang on the first date every single time unless you actually like the girl and want to draw it out.

Read Tuth's first date recipe and tweak it to fit your style.

[xsplat]

(12-11-2012 07:17 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

xplat,
After all I believe you yourself said you don't get laid over here.

Why do you believe that? Did you ever see any actual words that I wrote anywhere to that effect? Or is that just another belief that is convenient to you?

(12-11-2012 07:17 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

There is a difference in quality (majority of instantly "dtf" girls in a club is 1-10 vs the 8 you meet for drinks) when you are trying to pick up girls for a one night stand in a club venue type atmosphere vs going out on a date and trying to get a single night lay.

I'm referring to the date scenario to single night lay scenario but in both cases, you are trying to put them through the courting ritual, some stuff can be skipped (with DTF girls) and other things have to be repeated but I don't believe that the hotter the girl the more difficult.

I think it would rather involve a girl who's gone through her "slutty" phase and has been on multiple SNL's that would be harder to fuck on the 1st date. She's been there and wants something more meaningful and wants to make up for past slutty actions(hamster think) It's another reason to get them younger IMO.

They STILL have the same hormones that can overide her inner resistance by having a good time and feeling a "connection" WITH attraction. Even if it's a two or three dates till you bang it's the same mindset as KP pointed out. I think you should be going for the bang on the first date every single time unless you actually like the girl and want to draw it out.

Read Tuth's first date recipe and tweak it to fit your style.

We agree that going for sex as soon as possible is the way to go.

Did you want to talk more about if girls have romantic triggers, and if they are capable of deep and lasting grief?

What's your take on the alpha widow syndrome? Ever caused any yourself?

I'm sure that there are many on this forum who've caused quite a few.

Fisto says:

"What I'm saying is that she'll get over it very quickly. "

"But DO NOT WORRY about those girls. They will be fine in a matter of DAYS. Emotions are like the weather with them. In 1 month she'll be telling her friends about some other guy she met and she's all up his ass."

[MikeinMKE]

(12-11-2012 04:11 PM)Sphere Wrote:  

Perhaps I didn't lay this out well enough. This is not about ONS material, this is about banging girls that take more than one or two dates to get to. You've never banged on the third date? What was it about the third date that worked that didn't work on the first two? In my mind it's the possibility that you would make a decent boyfriend. You've never played into that? It works like a goddam charm.

I get what you're saying. "Good girls" (girls who are "Christian" for example) aren't going to fuck you on the first date - no matter how good it is. First date you will make out and feel their bra and unhook it, but they won't let you take their shirt/bra OFF. Second date you can suck their tits and rub your cock on their panties. Third date they're finally DTF if you ply them with alcohol (interesting aside, girls like this are very likely to let you raw dog them) and then you fuck. But you have to play the boyfriend game to get to this point - tiey have to believe that it's not casual and that you're likely on the way to something long-term. After you fuck they'll expect you to cuddle and if you do see them again they're on you about facebook, going out to dinner, etc.

I honestly don't think there's a great solution to getting rid of this girl if you're ready to move on. She will be hurt or pissed or clingy or all three. The best way that I'VE found to end this is to just be aloof with texts, really detached, etc. They'll sense that something is wrong and then you can either pick a fight about them being "clingy" or they'll just move on (this actually happens a lot - I've been surprised at how cool most of these chicks are at moving on without a fight or without stalking).

I don't love it and honestly when I get into these situations it upsets my feng shui and I feel guilty for a few days. But ultimately it's better to fuck them, get rid of them, and feel bad for a few days than to NOT fuck them or (worse yet) to let them trap you in a relationship you don't want to be in. I think a lot of "cool guys" who still are new to game will let girls like this rope them into a relationship which is frankly a waste of everybody's time. The WORST thing you can do is enter a relationship with a hot/cool girl in her late 20's early 30's if you have no intention of settling with them for real. Be a man and move on.

[MikeinMKE]

(12-11-2012 04:35 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

I don't think you guys are getting that you can take a girl through the whole dating ritual in one night and bang a girl that wouldn't normally consider fucking on the first date.

There are plenty of quality girls (7.5 to 8.5) who are "Christian" and don't fuck on the first date or two or three. I know you think that makes me a beta pussy for not being able to fuck them right away but it's just the way it is. I feel like some of you ultra players leave quality poon on the table by saying "ugh it's not worth it" when you're really only a couple more dates away from their sweet sweet pussy (bareback no less, as I mentioned girls like this will let you fuck them sans rubber more times than not).

[Duke Castile]

(12-11-2012 07:43 PM)MikeinMKE Wrote:  

(12-11-2012 04:35 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

I don't think you guys are getting that you can take a girl through the whole dating ritual in one night and bang a girl that wouldn't normally consider fucking on the first date.

There are plenty of quality girls (7.5 to 8.5) who are "Christian" and don't fuck on the first date or two or three. I know you think that makes me a beta pussy for not being able to fuck them right away but it's just the way it is. I feel like some of you ultra players leave quality poon on the table by saying "ugh it's not worth it" when you're really only a couple more dates away from their sweet sweet pussy (bareback no less, as I mentioned girls like this will let you fuck them sans rubber more times than not).

Whoa man, I'm not saying you're a Beta or anything of the sort. I just happen to know from experience that these girls you're saying WON'T fuck on the first date WILL with the right combination of game, luck, and timing. So if you aren't GOING for it on the first date, you definately WON'T bang them.

[Duke Castile]

(12-11-2012 07:32 PM)xsplat Wrote:  

(12-11-2012 07:17 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

xplat,
After all I believe you yourself said you don't get laid over here.

Why do you believe that? Did you ever see any actual words that I wrote anywhere to that effect? Or is that just another belief that is convenient to you?

(12-11-2012 07:17 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

There is a difference in quality (majority of instantly "dtf" girls in a club is 1-10 vs the 8 you meet for drinks) when you are trying to pick up girls for a one night stand in a club venue type atmosphere vs going out on a date and trying to get a single night lay.

I'm referring to the date scenario to single night lay scenario but in both cases, you are trying to put them through the courting ritual, some stuff can be skipped (with DTF girls) and other things have to be repeated but I don't believe that the hotter the girl the more difficult.

I think it would rather involve a girl who's gone through her "slutty" phase and has been on multiple SNL's that would be harder to fuck on the 1st date. She's been there and wants something more meaningful and wants to make up for past slutty actions(hamster think) It's another reason to get them younger IMO.

They STILL have the same hormones that can overide her inner resistance by having a good time and feeling a "connection" WITH attraction. Even if it's a two or three dates till you bang it's the same mindset as KP pointed out. I think you should be going for the bang on the first date every single time unless you actually like the girl and want to draw it out.

Read Tuth's first date recipe and tweak it to fit your style.

We agree that going for sex as soon as possible is the way to go.

Did you want to talk more about if girls have romantic triggers, and if they are capable of deep and lasting grief?

What's your take on the alpha widow syndrome? Ever caused any yourself?

I'm sure that there are many on this forum who've caused quite a few.

Fisto says:

"What I'm saying is that she'll get over it very quickly. "

"But DO NOT WORRY about those girls. They will be fine in a matter of DAYS. Emotions are like the weather with them. In 1 month she'll be telling her friends about some other guy she met and she's all up his ass."

xsplat,

I know you really want to talk but I really don't have any interest in speaking to you.

[xsplat]

(12-11-2012 07:54 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

xsplat,

I know you really want to talk but I really don't have any interest in speaking to you.

Ya, I know. You even go so far as to claim that I derail thread topics, and thus want me to not speak at all. And go so far as to claim that the experiences I relate are fictional. And go so far as to claim that I said that I didn't get laid in the west.

I have a theory of why you have so much antagonism. I'm saying something that is deeply threatening to you. So much so that you feel the need to invalidate not only the logic of my interpretation of my experiences, but invalidate me altogether.

I'm talking to you as I find that the view that romance is not and can not be a useful attraction trigger and that women don't feel it to be a poisonous and pernicious attitude that harms other men.

And you are talking at me to get me to stop pointing out the inconsistencies in your view. By any means possible.

[Duke Castile]

Dude you're derailing it right now.

Jesus man, I just think you're a hack and I don't think I can learn anything from you.

[kenny_powers]

(12-11-2012 07:51 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

(12-11-2012 07:43 PM)MikeinMKE Wrote:  

(12-11-2012 04:35 PM)Fisto Wrote:  

I don't think you guys are getting that you can take a girl through the whole dating ritual in one night and bang a girl that wouldn't normally consider fucking on the first date.

There are plenty of quality girls (7.5 to 8.5) who are "Christian" and don't fuck on the first date or two or three. I know you think that makes me a beta pussy for not being able to fuck them right away but it's just the way it is. I feel like some of you ultra players leave quality poon on the table by saying "ugh it's not worth it" when you're really only a couple more dates away from their sweet sweet pussy (bareback no less, as I mentioned girls like this will let you fuck them sans rubber more times than not).

Whoa man, I'm not saying you're a Beta or anything of the sort. I just happen to know from experience that these girls you're saying WON'T fuck on the first date WILL with the right combination of game, luck, and timing. So if you aren't GOING for it on the first date, you definately WON'T bang them.

I can be a patient guy - like a spider waiting to catch a fly in his web. Saturday was the 4th date to get the close (it was worth the effort). I have also had some SNL action in the last few weeks. I also recently told a girl "get the fuck out of the bar" on the first date. I don't know anyone in any field that is on 100% winning all the time every time. But I will say this - The reason I am here on RVF is to get better at closing all of them on the first date. It is about constant improvement and going for the SNL every first date, regardless of the girl. It is fun, it is a game. Sometimes you get a nut, sometimes you don't.

As for romance or providing the boyfriend experience...sure why not? I don't see how playing that angle or putting out that vibe is a bad thing. And maybe I am missing something, but how is that any different or how is that NOT going for the bang SNL or ONS? As for pump and dump? Who cares. If she is LTR material than convert it into and LTR - if that's your thing.