This has puzzled me for a while.

I get the whole needing to be aloof/indifferent/unpredictable in order to really get the hamster to spin in your favour.

But, being aloof/indifferent only works if you have built up the attraction.

I'm a regular guy, so chicks don't seem interested in fucking me straight off the bat, so I have to build attraction. In order to build attraction, I have to engage with chicks, make them laugh etc, which is the opposite of aloof/indifferent. And by that time, I've usually been friendzoned.

So how do you guys play this? do you act aloof/indifferent from the start or switch up at a certain time?

Quote: (12-10-2012 02:16 AM)bonkers Wrote:  

This has puzzled me for a while.

I get the whole needing to be aloof/indifferent/unpredictable in order to really get the hamster to spin in your favour.

But, being aloof/indifferent only works if you have built up the attraction.

Although it can only be learned with time and experience, the basic idea about this whole "aloof/unpredictable game" is that you have to be a higher value person and the girl has to have some attraction for you. Then you have to act like someone who's offering something that other guys don't. It is very basic human psychology - the harder it is for you to obtain something the more you want it. Also, this whole "aloof/unpredictable game" is not an end in itself but just a strategy of game that one needs to use depending upon the situation.

Quote:Quote:

I'm a regular guy, so chicks don't seem interested in fucking me straight off the bat, so I have to build attraction. In order to build attraction, I have to engage with chicks, make them laugh etc, which is the opposite of aloof/indifferent. And by that time, I've usually been friendzoned.

How much time do you spend "building attraction"? It's actually not a very complicated process - meet the girl, get her digits, get the girl to go on a date, kiss her by the end of it(latest by second date), then isolate, escalate and bang. If you can't wrap this whole process up within 3-4 dates(given that you are a noob), then you won't be banging her ever.

If you can engage their friends, whilst ignoring them, you'll probably find they start trying to engage you. Once they start chasing you, it's like you've already built the attraction, and you can either play it out a little more, or begin to engage them once they start chasing you.

You can still be engaging while being aloof or indifferent. It's how you react to situations. YOu can be telling a joke or something then when a girl says she has to go, you are completely unaffected (body language) and you just smile and say bye. She might come back just because of how you reacted to her bad news. You are looking at being aloof the wrong way. It's more about doing what you do because you want to do it and nothing else matters. It's not about ignoring people.

Although ignoring can be used in certain situations, it only works after you have set the tone (for example, you have been actively engaging her all night, then all of a sudden you won't talk to her) that is what drives girls crazy. But that is more of a move than the aloof attitude. Like I said the aloof attitude is more about not giving a shit about what anybody thinks.

There is a difference between a style of attraction and a core tennet of seduction.

I've traveled with and have intimately seen one fellow on Dead tour who slept with a new girl every night. He was the opposite of aloof - he ran high energy high interest game. According to my data being aloof is therefore not a core tenet of attraction. You don't need to be aloof at all.

I suspect what happened is that Roissy pushes this style of attraction, and everybody nodded along and said, yup, not only does that work for me, but that's the ONLY thing that works, for anyone. Ever. Everywhere.

Also what people are doing is when the dictionary definition of being aloof doesn't fit in with what they are actually doing, they fuzzy up their personal definition to have it mean whatever the hell they want it to mean. "Oh, actually it's just an attitude of amused mastery". "No, it's an attitude of abundance".

Actually being aloof is not something that all people do very much of during seduction, and some people don't do it at all. Whether that will be beneficial to you is not up to any game theory. That's up to your personality and the obvious signs of value you project.

It's a type of game craziness to try to take on a personality that is too at odds with your habits of thinking. In the movie Ferris Buelers day off Charlie Sheen plays the archetypal aloof bad boy. Not everybody is suited to play that role. If you aren't, then your notch count and the quality of your lays is not going to go up by "faking it until you make it" with that incongruent niche marketing role playing.

However there are principles within being aloof that are principles of attraction, such as having the firm boundaries that come from knowing that you can get (or already have) other girls, a playful attitude of the girl being just a girl, push pull, and a general feeling of superiority.

However actually being aloof is more often a bad idea than a good one.

a·loof
/əˈlo͞of/
Adjective

Not friendly or forthcoming; cool and distant.
Conspicuously uninvolved and uninterested, typically through distaste.

Quote: (12-10-2012 07:22 AM)xsplat Wrote:  

I suspect what happened is that Roissy pushes this style of attraction, and everybody nodded along and said, yup, not only does that work for me, but that's the ONLY thing that works, for anyone. Ever. Everywhere.

And even Roissy has said that extroversion and curiosity are centerpieces of the player personality, and neither trait squares with "aloofness."

I think the OP already has it right: Aloofness is best reserved for girls you're already seeing. If you don't want to get friend zoned, better to be clear about your intentions from the start, and force her give a yes/no (perhaps not in so many words...) on fucking you.

Thanks guys - picked up a few things from each of your posts.
If I may break it down:
1. Initially engage with chicks to build attraction, comfort by DHV, telling jokes etc in person and while getting the number
2. Act aloof/indifferent in texts.
3. First date - again engage to build attraction, comfort, kino escalation to make sure that you are interested in being more than friends. End with kiss
4. Act aloof/indifferent in texts again
5. Second date and beyond - display a mixture of aloofness and interest to really get the hamster going and secure the bang.
6. Post bang - aloof if you don't care if there is another bang or not; a mixture of aloof and interested if you are seeking LTR or want a FWB arrangement?

Is that a reasonable breakdown or have I missed a major point?

Bonkers, that's one recipe for one type of cake.

There are other recipes for steak sandwiches and fried rice.

If you are using romance as an attraction trigger then you'll use less or no aloof game.

The same goes for a strong mutual lust type of game. No need to act aloof in the slightest.

If you are concerned about coming across as more eager than the girl is, then you can force yourself to tone down your enthusiasm. However if the girl is encouraging some enthusiasm then you can work to ramp up her feelings of lust and romance, by offering some lust and enthusiasm.

Then there is also caveman game where you overwhelm her with your desire, and just take what you want. No aloofness there either. A good follow up to caveman game is just assuming the sale afterwards - assume that she is way into you, and play on the vibes you had going. Depending on the girl those would lean towards the lusty or the romantic side of things.

I guess a lot of guys approach the problem from the point of view of what if the girl just isn't all that into you. Well then most of the time ya, you aren't going to want to come across as way into her. But even that's tricky to put into words, because sometimes you will use your strong passion as a way to kick start her passion, and as a way to overcome her resistance.

But it's also going to happen that sometimes the girl IS into you. And again it's going to happen that you can ramp that up, and up, and up, by playfully bringing out her lusty and romantic natures - building up this illusion of a connection between the two of you. Get her involved in the whole fantasy, and thinking about you all the time.

Sometimes it's helpful to use text and chat to maintain and build buying temperature, and some guys are expert at that, but nothing beats face time. If there is a good sexual chemistry between the two of you, or if not that then a strong romantic chemistry, then she'll be wanting to see you again, and then you build on things that way. Just fuck a lot, and draw her into your world that way. If that's a world you are comfortable in and you get a good strong connection going, you're on your way to owning her.

It doesn't always work out that after the first fuck the girl is yours, but I've always found that assuming the sale and building up on the girls sexual fantasies of bonding and lust and romance rapidly escalates into having a love slave. For me aloofness is used about as much as salt is in a cake. You don't even need any salt for a good cake.

The good thing about the concept of being aloof is that it can counteract over eagerness. But the negative thing about it is that it can also counteract the notion of building up on girls desire to be swept off her feet. It's not as good an attitude to take as assuming the sale.

You're a busy man with lots of options who simply knows that the girl is about to fall for you, and fall for you hard, because that's what the girls usually do. And that's cool with you, because you selected your target carefully, and are quite into her, and are willing to go with her into that place of lust and passion. Because that's just the kind of thing you like to do. You are good at building up sympatico and enjoy it. And you enjoy her.

Funny this post should come up as I was trying to find a way to articulate this...

I know it doesn't quite answer your question, but on the topic of aloofness I will offer an analogy.

What happens when two magnets are put next to each other? If the circumstances are correct they will be drawn towards one another. Now, regarding aloofness, consider what would happen if one of those magnets was nailed to a table. All things equal the 2nd magnet will be drawn to the first. That is how I would explain the value of aloofness in game.

Aloofness is a useful strategy in game to draw in your target thus giving you the upper hand, but unless the circumstances are correct (i.e. you're drawn to each other) it will not work. It's useful because whereas chasing may result in you repelling your target, by remaining aloof, if your target is being drawn to you, you can run "just don't fuck it up"- game FTN.


-PJ

Quote: (12-11-2012 01:28 AM)PJ25 Wrote:  

if your target is being drawn to you, you can run "just don't fuck it up"- game FTN.

Yes, I also tend to view using aloofness as a game principle as a kindergarden level tool. It's like putting a bib on before eating spaghetti - it helps you to avoid messing up your shirt and thus botching the whole affair.

But more advanced is actually being good at showing interest - and even strong interest, and using the force of that magnetism to get electricity flowing in her wires, thus building up some sympathetic electro magnetism.

Quote: (12-11-2012 12:57 AM)xsplat Wrote:  

If you are using romance as an attraction trigger then you'll use less or no aloof game.

Reading that was a big realization for me. I never realized that, thats what I was doing when I was being romantic. I mean I instinctively realized that a good bit of romance gets the panties wet, but realizing, objectively, that romance is an "attraction tool" is quite the paradigm shift in how I conceptualize attraction and furthermore how I approach seduction. Now I am starting to think, "In what other way's can I (or do I for that matter) trigger, stimulate, generate, attraction."

Thanks!

-PJ

Quote: (12-10-2012 02:16 AM)bonkers Wrote:  

This has puzzled me for a while.

I get the whole needing to be aloof/indifferent/unpredictable in order to really get the hamster to spin in your favour.

But, being aloof/indifferent only works if you have built up the attraction.

I'm a regular guy, so chicks don't seem interested in fucking me straight off the bat, so I have to build attraction. In order to build attraction, I have to engage with chicks, make them laugh etc, which is the opposite of aloof/indifferent. And by that time, I've usually been friendzoned.

So how do you guys play this? do you act aloof/indifferent from the start or switch up at a certain time?

Nah you got it wrong.

You got to build attraction while you're aloof
If you really don't care she will see it.

Ive found that being aloof and coming off as indifferent usually only works when your around a girl in casual situations that arent forced like working with them or going to school with them or them just being part of your social circle and you seeing them occasionally at parties and the like.

And even then, she has to be naturally attracted to you for it to work the way its supposed to by making her wonder if you like her back. The way you would know if she likes you is by you subtley catching her stealing glances at you when she doesnt think your looking and by her seemingly being comfortable being around you but at the same time showing very subtle signs of anxiety. Its an art to sniffing out girls that are attracted to you that dont explicitly show it.

And when being aloof you can only play that role for so long before you have to eventually get a little more forward with your displays of attraction while at the same time playing it cool and not coming off as thirsty.

It all goes back to being able to notice if she is natuarally attracted to you before pulling off the aloofness tho. Being indifferent and aloof around a girl thats not even attracted to you is an exercise in futility.

Also, you have to know what type of girl your dealing with. Unconfident or gun-shy girls cant really deal with too much aloofness and will be turned off real quick. They recognize that only the most confident of higher value guys can pull this off and it kind of works as a double edged sword. She'll be attracted to you but afraid of you at the same time and wont want anything to do with you cause she'll be feeling like you'll fuck over her if she ever got involved with you.

Quote: (12-11-2012 10:56 AM)PJ25 Wrote:  

Quote: (12-11-2012 12:57 AM)xsplat Wrote:  

If you are using romance as an attraction trigger then you'll use less or no aloof game.

Reading that was a big realization for me. I never realized that, thats what I was doing when I was being romantic. I mean I instinctively realized that a good bit of romance gets the panties wet, but realizing, objectively, that romance is an "attraction tool" is quite the paradigm shift in how I conceptualize attraction and furthermore how I approach seduction. Now I am starting to think, "In what other way's can I (or do I for that matter) trigger, stimulate, generate, attraction."

Thanks!

-PJ

It still puzzles me how the community seems to be predominantly comprised of men who are disinterested in romance.

I figure either:
a) men who are attracted to the community were never good enough with girls to get them to fall in love in the first place, and so have no experience with a succesful lasting mutual love, or
b) they were good enough with women to fall in mutual love, but not good enough to sustain it, and got beat down by emasculating shit tests until things fell apart into a mess of mutual hate
c) they got used by player girls too often and don't care to be emotionally vulnerable again
d) they just aren't built for romance, and are inately more of a dark triad type of personality.

And so when I point out that women, even modern women, and even modern western women, that WOMEN all have romantic attraction triggers built into them that are easy to exploit, usually all I hear is the sound of crickets.

Romance? Romance?! What, are you crazy? ROMANCE?!!!1

My favorite and greatest influence on my knowledge of women has been Roissy, and it would be difficult to praise his older writings enough, however I feel that he has also left a lasting pernicious mark on the mindset of PUAs. I disagree with him on two main points. 1) the value of confidence (he thinks it's pretty well the only value) and 2) The importance of being aloof. And now I realize that deeper even than #2 is the issue of using romance as an attraction trigger. Crickets. If you were to read only his view you'd wind up thinking that bad boy aloof alpha game is the only game in town. When it isn't even the most effective game, and certainly not the type that causes what Krauser terms "deep conversion".

Love at first sight game blows aloof game out of the water, and works even for ugly guys.

This thread has made realize how many longer lasting arraignments with women I could had experienced had it not been for my aloof nature. I have been told by women a few times that I'm hard to read. They assume I'm not interested based on what they see on the surface. Another thing to work on I suppose, but I like go through periods of self development.

Quote: (12-11-2012 12:07 PM)xsplat Wrote:  

Quote: (12-11-2012 10:56 AM)PJ25 Wrote:  

Quote: (12-11-2012 12:57 AM)xsplat Wrote:  

If you are using romance as an attraction trigger then you'll use less or no aloof game.

Reading that was a big realization for me. I never realized that, thats what I was doing when I was being romantic. I mean I instinctively realized that a good bit of romance gets the panties wet, but realizing, objectively, that romance is an "attraction tool" is quite the paradigm shift in how I conceptualize attraction and furthermore how I approach seduction. Now I am starting to think, "In what other way's can I (or do I for that matter) trigger, stimulate, generate, attraction."

Thanks!

-PJ

It still puzzles me how the community seems to be predominantly comprised of men who are disinterested in romance.

I figure either:
a) men who are attracted to the community were never good enough with girls to get them to fall in love in the first place, and so have no experience with a succesful lasting mutual love, or
b) they were good enough with women to fall in mutual love, but not good enough to sustain it, and got beat down by emasculating shit tests until things fell apart into a mess of mutual hate
c) they got used by player girls too often and don't care to be emotionally vulnerable again
d) they just aren't built for romance, and are inately more of a dark triad type of personality.

And so when I point out that women, even modern women, and even modern western women, that WOMEN all have romantic attraction triggers built into them that are easy to exploit, usually all I hear is the sound of crickets.

Romance? Romance?! What, are you crazy? ROMANCE?!!!1

My favorite and greatest influence on my knowledge of women has been Roissy, and it would be difficult to praise his older writings enough, however I feel that he has also left a lasting pernicious mark on the mindset of PUAs. I disagree with him on two main points. 1) the value of confidence (he thinks it's pretty well the only value) and 2) The importance of being aloof. And now I realize that deeper even than #2 is the issue of using romance as an attraction trigger. Crickets. If you were to read only his view you'd wind up thinking that bad boy aloof alpha game is the only game in town. When it isn't even the most effective game, and certainly not the type that causes what Krauser terms "deep conversion".

Love at first sight game blows aloof game out of the water, and works even for ugly guys.

This is a clear threadjack but it fits in with where this is going.

Providing "the boyfriend experience" has always been my go-to move. The challenge for me as an ethical guy is that I get sucked into it. Once I've got a girl on the hook it feels really shabby to just blow them off. I've done it with lesser quality girls and I still feel shabby although all of them have at one point or another acknowledged that they probably can't hold my interest.

How do you play the end of that game out? If you're playing the romance game how do you then get what you want and move on. I understand the "pump", it's the "dump" I struggle with given that I only use that move on LTR-worthy girls.

Comments? Or should I start a new thread?

I suppose a separate thread on the Role of Romance in seduction and Romance as an attraction tool are in order.

Quote: (12-11-2012 01:34 PM)PJ25 Wrote:  

I suppose a separate thread on the Role of Romance in seduction and Romance as an attraction tool are in order.

I'd be interested in such a thread myself. Trying to calibrate between the two has proved difficult.

Quote: (12-11-2012 12:54 PM)Sphere Wrote:  

How do you play the end of that game out? If you're playing the romance game how do you then get what you want and move on. I understand the "pump", it's the "dump" I struggle with given that I only use that move on LTR-worthy girls.

Comments? Or should I start a new thread?

A wise woman once said to me: You must get as good at tossing the fish back as you are at hooking them.

There are no easy answers when you're selling a woman a dream that you have no intention of making good on. It's one of my favorite angles, but if you don't have your head screwed on tight you could end up getting burned, and in the process, leave a women feeling spurned. It's worth it though, sex on love is one of the best sex(s) you can have in this world.

In terms of an exit strategy, I suppose a good way would be to point out some (non existant) trivial flaw she has that ruins her for you and say something along the lines of "I wish it weren't so..." or "you're perfect other than this (tragic) flaw..." and break up with her. You'll always have her on the hook because in her head you guys had this "perfect love" that, for whatever (fictitious) reason, didn't work out, but you are able to leave the relationship with minimal fallout.

Great for repeat bangs if you can avoid catching feelings.



-PJ

New thread started here.