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Israel and Palestine:Is This Ever Going To End?
#76

Israel and Palestine:Is This Ever Going To End?

The whole situation is indeed extremely SAD. When extremist points of view prevail on both sides, war and hate will keep flowing, no matter what. No victory to be claimed here. No articial banning or bombing of innocent citizens will resolve this problem. Among the media buzz, it might be useful to take a look at history and what it can teach us, in addition to traveling to the region and talk to people on BOTH sides.

It all comes back to the way Israel was "created". While many states began through violence and war, in the case of Israel it is kind of different: little of the possible consequences was taken into account. In "marketing" terms: nobody studied well the background of where this state was going to be founded, and the "product" was logically not accepted by none of the old and new "customers".

Here are some enlightening quotes I' d like to share with you guys:

"Israel is an artificial state created in Arab lands by European colonial powers after World War II. Instead of working to win acceptance and overcoming Arab hostility to Europe shipping off "the Jewish problem" to the Middle East, Israel has antagonized its Middle East neighbors. Israel can play the bully-boy role, because the US acts as Israel's big brother. With its policy of fang and claw, Israel endangers its own right to exist.......
Can five million Israelis, even when backed by the United States, forever suppress hundreds of millions of humiliated Muslims stewing in their humiliation?
This is a recipe for perpetual conflict and the eventual destruction of Israel. "
http://rense.com/general72/sisres.htm

Here is another interesting comment:

"Is there any artificial state in the world?
Israel is the only artificial state in the world. Possession of a territory by a compact people is the sole basis for a nation-state. But in case of Israel, Swiss, Polish, American, Ukrainian, British and many other European nationals thronged into Palestine not before millions of years but surprisingly right in the twentieth century. Thus was created the state of Israel."

Even the major Israeli newspaper Haaretz is skeptical: on how the arab is constantly and unilaterally reproduced as evil:
"Much of the blame for this rests on successive Israeli governments that have not taken effective action to integrate Israel's Muslim citizens."
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opi...n-1.293670

However, a last, very interesting article, says that BOTH Israel and Palestine are artificial constructs and thus condemned to failure:

"Both (Israel and Palestine) were created by more powerful nations to keep the Jews out of Europe and to keep the Palestinians out of Egypt and Jordan. Foreign powers have set up this confrontation by artificially creating nations that have no valid natural reason to exist, and now they feel like they must judge and criticize one of their own creations. They now tell us that one of the artificial states they created has no right to exist. But the other one does."
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/41888569

Among the rhetorics, the innocent 2-year old kids killed by rockets on the roof, or just on the local playground near the school, won't have their opportunity to say who is wrong and who is right in this absurd war....

"Fart, and if you must, fart often. But always fart without apology. Fart for freedom, fart for liberty, and fart proudly" (Ben Franklin)
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#77

Israel and Palestine:Is This Ever Going To End?

Quote: (11-17-2012 07:32 PM)Sabra Wrote:  

@CabtainAhab – if you’re seriously looking to learn about the issue, that’s admirable that you don’t start off with a pre-biased notion, in either direction. This is a complex area – try to get your info from as many sources as possible, reading and realizing the inherent bias that each one has. Come to the Middle East and experience it for yourself if you’re interested enough. But basically you’ll need some Hebrew, some Arabic, some Farsi, some Turkish and at least a decade before you can get a real feel for the place and the history, so hey. Others seem to think that they're qualified experts after watching a few documentaries or reading an article or two. Hopefully you know better than that.


I never said I was an expert. I don't think I am arguing a pre-biased notion either.

What is biased about international law? Israel is a member state of the United Nations. They are violating the resolutions, one of which I believe was passed in the UN Security council. If they were Iraq they would be under sanctions.

I think your assertion that you need foreign language skills, travel experience, and a decade of dedicated study in order to understand the situation is absurd. That is why we have scholars, journalists, professors, etc to study the material intensely and tell us their observations. You gather empirical data and form a hypothesis, test it, and report the results. Otherwise we would never be able to have an academic discipline dedicated to history. We don't have to be at the place to understand the situation. None of us have been to Julius Caser's Rome be we understand there is enough historical records to indicate the man existed, did cross the Rubicon, and was assassinated in the Roman senate.

My argument is that the Israeli occupation of the West Bank, Gaza, and Jerusalem is illegal under international law. The settlements are illegal under international law, and the right of return for Palestinians was denied.

I am not sure how you can say I am coming with a pre-biased notion. I am arguing international law. Was international law created to be biased against Israelis? I don't think you would agree with that.

I am not condoning the rocket fire that is going into Israeli civilian areas, nor am I condoning suicide bombings or acts of terror. I believe Israel has a right to defend its citizens. However, If both nations are going to have a successful peace negotiation in the near future we have to be honest about the facts.
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#78

Israel and Palestine:Is This Ever Going To End?

Quote: (11-17-2012 09:11 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

I just want to say that much of the criticism against Israel is rooted in anti-semitism.


From the research I've done, most dissenters against Israel in regards to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict are angry at Israelis because of the occupation of the Palestinian territories and the human rights violations that occur there. Not because they hate Jewish heritage.

I can see how one can express antisemitism using the Arab-Israeli conflicts as a pre-text for their antisemitism though.

I would be suspicious of any European/Caucasian that was PASSIONATELY against Israel more so than an actual Palestinian since one has a legitimate historical and present day injustice to justify his or her animosity with Israelis while the other has a long history of well documented hatred against Jews because of their Jewish heritage (the holocaust, pogroms, Nazis, Christian suppression, etc).
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#79

Israel and Palestine:Is This Ever Going To End?

Quote: (11-18-2012 07:04 AM)Captain Ahab Wrote:  

Quote: (11-17-2012 09:11 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

I just want to say that much of the criticism against Israel is rooted in anti-semitism.


From the research I've done, most dissenters against Israel in regards to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict are angry at Israelis because of the occupation of the Palestinian territories and the human rights violations that occur there. Not because they hate Jewish heritage.

I can see how one can express antisemitism using the Arab-Israeli conflicts as a pre-text for their antisemitism though.

I would be suspicious of any European/Caucasian that was PASSIONATELY against Israel more so than an actual Palestinian since one has a legitimate historical and present day injustice to justify his or her animosity with Israelis while the other has a long history of well documented hatred against Jews because of their Jewish heritage (the holocaust, pogroms, Nazis, Christian suppression, etc).

Just in this thread two people denied the holocaust and one of them posted an antisemitic caricature of a greedy Jew with a big nose.

Then there are posters like you and Kosko who bring up valid objections to Israel's policies.

I believe, that the distribution of "anti-Israelis" in general population is similar to this thread. Half just hate Jews no matter what, and half are against Israel for logical reasons.
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#80

Israel and Palestine:Is This Ever Going To End?

Quote: (11-17-2012 11:22 PM)teh_skeeze Wrote:  

If we are truly supposed to be a more enlightened group, the word "antisemitic" should not be used. Here's a little pro tip: Palestinians are Semites as well.

Jews have usurped the word antisemitic much like the feminists have usurped the word creepy. They immediately shout that word and invoke the memories of the Holocaust whenever they are faced with a view that they don't like.

source

I know that posting this picture will cause a shitstorm, but I feel compelled to post it anyway.
[Image: 1341538693752.png]

This image is taken from a nazi forum called Stormfront
http://www.blockedurl.org/forum/t922357/

My grandfather put bullets in the heads of many Nazis and I'd be extremely satisfied to correct your twisted belief with a 7.62 in your brain.
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#81

Israel and Palestine:Is This Ever Going To End?

It's pretty bizarre to see Americans defending or excusing Hamas. Maybe you don't realize this but the only thanks Hamas has for you parotting their political agenda will be slitting your throat, raping your women, blowing up your family, burning down your town and dancing on your grave. You can kiss their ass all you want but it won't change the fact they hate your guts.
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#82

Israel and Palestine:Is This Ever Going To End?

It's impossible to have a reasoned Israel/Palestine argument on the internet. Let's avoid this topic.
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