[Captain Ahab]

I've been watching these two nations go at it since I was kid. I am pushing thirty and they are still fighting.

Is there anyway this conflict is going to end?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/16/world/...middleeast

[bojangles]

Nope, never.

Hamas are in charge of Palestine and will not stop until Israel is wiped off the map

[MorphineBliss]

My guess it will slowly come to an end and they'll start getting along once all the old brigade of israeli generals have died and the only thing palestinians as well as israelis can remember is growing up in a disillusioned world of militarised uneasyness, disappointment, curfews, shortages, false promises and can't remember who the enemy is: the others or their own leadership.

At some point these guys gotta be sick of living like this and stop caring about the other guys religion. Probably will take another 15-20 years. When our generation is 50. So about in 2030 I'd say.

That said, it's only the crazies having children there. The settlers and the gaza fanatics. And what will they teach their children? So maybe I'm being a tad optimistic here.

A close friend of mine is a palestinian from Gaza. He hasn't been back in years even though his family is there, including his dad who passed away recently. Getting into Gaza is a nightmare. It takes months of preparation and on the day you want to cross over from Egypt you might find out that the crossing have been indefinitely shut. My friend is a bright guy, a trained surgeon (as are all the males in his family also physicians) but being Palestinian has ruined his life. He had to move all over the world to get educated and now being state-less its very hard for him to find employment that is recognised as training even in the country he's doing it. We, along with the israelis treat these people pretty badly, but what their so called fellow arabs do to them, you don't even want to know. The worst of all though he says are the Hamas.

You cannot live, raise a family or work in the Gaza strip nowadays without being a friend of the Hamas.

[j r]

It's crips and bloods. Two groups who hate each other and end up getting a lot of innocent people killed. The problem is that there are people on both sides who way a peaceful solution and are willing to compromise and people who want total victory and won't comprimise. And it is really easy for the hawks on either side to take action and set shit off, while it is really hard for the doves to make progress on a two state solution.

And before anyone drops a "diversity + proximity = war," please don't. It is an inane tautology.

[Menace]

Palestinians have the worst PR ever. Instead of turning their land into a banking and vacation destination, they lob rockets into Israel. They don't get that success would be the best revenge against Israel.

[bojangles]

Palestinians (leadership) are stupid, but that's because Mossad keep wiping out the intelligent souls in their leadership leading to less intelligent and more extreme people moving up their command chain.

Israel has a high tech defence system which handles a lot of rockets sent from Palestine. Palestine has fuck all defences to deal with Israeli attacks. So when you see in the media this many Palestinian civilians have died it's a result of
a) Hamas placing their rockets in civilian areas and IDF unable to minimise innocent casualties due to this
b) Not as many Israeli civilians are killed due to IDF's defence system inspite of Hamas deliberately targetting citizens.

Problem is they've had to choose between extreme leadership (Hamas) and corrupt leadership (Fatah). Neither are able to solve anything. Israeli's are blockading Gaza, but Gaza also borders other countries, Arab countries, who also don't want to open up their borders unsurprisingly but of course it's all the Israelis fault. It won't change until there is a big war out there involving those countries around Israel.

[Farmageddon]

The conflict in the Middle East will never end because of one thing: religion.

Apparently God promised the Israelis a specific piece of real estate and also ensured that the exact same slice of land was made holy to the Muslims and the Christians. The Jews believe that if they can get enough of the Muslims out of the Holy Land, the Messiah will appear and redeem them. The Muslims believe if they can push all the Jews into the sea, the Medhi will return and save humanity. But the creepiest lot of the whole bunch though is the Christians, who act essentially as the coat-holders of the conflict, actually believing the conflict is necessary to bring about the final battle of Armageddon which will usher in the second return of Christ and the final end of this veil of tears.

I think they're all fucking crazy and that we would be better off without the childish non-sense that is religious faith.

[Vicious]

Israel is simultaneously struggling with a growing lower class in the shape of their ultra-orthodox, the Haredi. This group has a large growth rate coupled with an uninterest in taking jobs that are not scholarly. Couple this with the fact that they are exempted from military service unlike all other citizen and you have a large source of internal tension. This would only be an Israeli social problem if it wasn't due to the alarming fact that the Haredi are also typically hardliners when it comes to Gaza.

[Andy_B]

I can't be the only one seeing a West vs. Iran angle in all this, can I?

It's clear that the West is trying to rally support in favor of the opposition in Syria, getting Turkey, the Gulf Arabs and other traditional allies in the region to bring money in, while Iran continues to support Assad, Egypt being something of a wild card.

Gaza (with Hamas being part of the Syria-Iran axis) will be a test case. All the young people in these various countries support the Palestinians; if Israel overreacts, that will force leaders to at least pay lip service to "Muslim solidarity," keeping then from throwing as much weight against Assad as they'd like to. Ultimately, Iran and Assad offer more support to the Palestinians than anyone else in the region, and in the wake of the Arab Spring I don't think that's going unnoticed.

In sum, I think that this situation could potentially end up having bigger geopolitical consequences in the region than many people realize. Israel's best move is restraint; if they can hold off on going all bombs away in Gaza, that will weaken the "solidarity" feelings that would mess up the West's divide and conquer strategy in the region. Of course, that may mean accepting a few rockets landing in Tel Aviv, and it doesn't seem to be Netanyahu's style to compromise on that.

[Way Cool Jr]

I can't see an end in this conflict, unfortunately I think we will have to face this situation for other 20 or 30 years at least.

On a less serious note this satirical thrash-metal song was made about 25 years ago and somehow the lyrics can still refer to the situation of our days.

[kosko]

I'm surprised nobody has stated the obvious fact that Israel has been running a illegal military occupation in the Palestine Territories for decades now.

Israel's greatest enemy and threat to its safety and security is its self. Nobody poses a threat to Israel other than its own Reactionary Policies. Like all Reactionary States that proceeded it Israel will eventually fall. Because Israel does not make any sense. It governs like a female without any logical or rational stances. It breeds perpetual conflict as a means to justify its means. Israel and the Arab conflict will never end because Israel can't live without it. How can Israel return to the prior thousands of years when Arabs and Jews lived in that area in relative peace. It would destroy the shoddy strawman that Israel has built up that everybody is a seething Anti-Semite hell bent on destroying them when it is far from the case. If Israel acted like a honest broker and respected the International Law - the same 'International Law' I add that gives Israel it's legitimacy in the first place - then the conflict would end, literally the next day. This deep religious boondoggle is overblown and limited to only sensitive areas such as Jerusalem and other shared holy spots. But the essence of two different religious and ethnic groups able to live in peace is doable. But it will never be because as I said Israel needs the conflict. It's radical right wing hangs its hat on it. It needs to kill a few of its own from egging on Rocket attacks to justify its whole complex - it makes no sense right? Of course it does not. Israel was never supposed to make sense.

War and conflict will forever be peace to the Zionist right - wing. Israel is the invisible hand that will eventually plunge the globe into another World War.

[NinjaMyHero]

I was listening to 1010 wins am radio....it sounded pretty fucking crazy. It was as if it were describing WW3 ,where they said rockets flying over the Isreali captial, children blown up to pieces, a march of soldiers invading the Gaza strip..crazy yo!

[cardguy]

I became alot more interested in the Middle East after learning about The Sampson Option. Apparently Israeli foreign policy is to destroy western cities should Israel itself ever be destroyed. From the point of view of Game Theory it is a rational strategy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option

[FROM WIKIPEDIA]

--------------------------------
Ron Rosenbaum writes in his 2012 book How the End Begins: The Road to a Nuclear World War III that in the "aftermath of a second Holocaust" Israel's surviving Dolphin-class nuclear missile submarines would retaliate not only against Israel's attackers, but "bring down the pillars of the world (attack Moscow and European capitals for instance)" as well as the "holy places of Islam." He writes that "abandonment of proportionality is the essence" of the Samson Option.[23]
--------------------------------

Seems Israel's Sampson Option is reminiscent of the final scene from Reservoir Dogs.

Cardguy

[kdolo]

Israel as we know it will cease to exist in about a generation.

Why ? demographics. The Palestinian fertility is way above the Isreali.

The conflict will be decided in the bedroom.

[rationalize_this]

(11-16-2012 10:10 AM)kosko Wrote:  

I'm surprised nobody has stated the obvious fact that Israel has been running a illegal military occupation in the Palestine Territories for decades now.

Israel's greatest enemy and threat to its safety and security is its self. Nobody poses a threat to Israel other than its own Reactionary Policies. Like all Reactionary States that proceeded it Israel will eventually fall. Because Israel does not make any sense. It governs like a female without any logical or rational stances. It breeds perpetual conflict as a means to justify its means. Israel and the Arab conflict will never end because Israel can't live without it. How can Israel return to the prior thousands of years when Arabs and Jews lived in that area in relative peace. It would destroy the shoddy strawman that Israel has built up that everybody is a seething Anti-Semite hell bent on destroying them when it is far from the case. If Israel acted like a honest broker and respected the International Law - the same 'International Law' I add that gives Israel it's legitimacy in the first place - then the conflict would end, literally the next day. This deep religious boondoggle is overblown and limited to only sensitive areas such as Jerusalem and other shared holy spots. But the essence of two different religious and ethnic groups able to live in peace is doable. But it will never be because as I said Israel needs the conflict. It's radical right wing hangs its hat on it. It needs to kill a few of its own from egging on Rocket attacks to justify its whole complex - it makes no sense right? Of course it does not. Israel was never supposed to make sense.

War and conflict will forever be peace to the Zionist right - wing. Israel is the invisible hand that will eventually plunge the globe into another World War.

How can this possibly be correct? You're whole argument is that Israel needs the conflict, and if they gave up the land in dispute, the conflict would simply end.

Sure, if you were dealing with rational people, who weren't religious fanatics being trained at young ages to run into crowded areas with bombs strapped to their chest in return for 20 virgins in heaven, maybe, just MAYBE the conflict would end.

But you're dealing with a race of people who at birth, child-rearing, and adult life make it their life goal to decimate the other culture. If Israel gave them the Gaza strip the attacks would only escalate. The Palestinians aren't after just the piece of land, they won't be happy until Israel, and all of Western Culture is completely destroyed. To them, their life is a small sacrifice to pay for this goal.

And you're argument that Israel simply doesn't make sense? To clarify, I'm not Jewish, or even a crazy "right winger" for that matter, but how does it not make sense that a race that has been persecuted for thousands of years, and virtually exterminated in WWII, doesn't deserve a safe haven for once in history.

Respecting International law? Why don't you ask the Palestinians who are putting their children in terror camps at the ages of 10 and indoctrinating them with a radical interpretation of their own law if they respect International law.

Israel needing to kill some of their own to perpetuate the conflict? You can't be serious here. I don't know if you've ever been to Israel, but the communities and people there are much closer and tight nit than your hold-hand maple syrup loving demographic. Its amazing what collective persecution can do to a people. Think of it like hazing in a fraternity. These people have gone through hell together, and they'll be close forever. These people remember the wars they fought (because they all serve), and the times they've had to live in basements for weeks at a time because threats of chemical gas rockets exploding over Jerusalem and Tel Aviv threatened their very livelihood.

No one wants to live in a perpetual state of conflict. Lets be real here.

[Sabra]

A few hours ago I was in a bomb shelter listening to alarms go off in the streets of Tel Aviv.

@cardguy - that's possibly the dumbest shit i've ever read. whatever you're smoking, lay off it.

@kosko - that's already the second or third time you've been trolling your anti-Israel bullshit theories on here. Nobody wants to hear your paranoid made up bullshit.

But it's fun for you guys on you sofas debating this issue, huh. Armchair generals and politicians.

One very very simple statement sums this conflict up:
If Israel laid down its arms tomorrow, it would be wiped off the map. If the Arabs laid down their arms tomorrow, there would be peace in the Middle East the next day.

[Sabra]

I'll try to make it simple for those who still don't understand.

[Big Nilla]

Sabra, isn't something like 25% of Israel's population Arab-Israeli and aren't they outbreeding Israeli Jews? Since they are citizens and can vote in Israeli elections, wouldn't this mean a Jewish Israel can't survive as a democracy sometime in the future? Or am I wrong on that?

[Sabra]

Simple explanation of the conflict.

[Sabra]

(11-16-2012 01:19 PM)Big Nilla Wrote:  

Sabra, isn't something like 25% of Israel's population Arab-Israeli and aren't they outbreeding Israeli Jews? Since they are citizens and can vote in Israeli elections, wouldn't this mean a Jewish Israel can't survive as a democracy sometime in the future? Or am I wrong on that?

Yes, you're right, there is a large percentage of Muslims (typically Arabs) living in Israel as citizens. People here are well aware of the demographic conflict.

The interesting thing is that, even though many of them openly express their hatred of Jews, they prefer to live in Israel, governed by Jews, because its the only normally functioning country in the region.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,...88,00.html

Here they can get an education, have great medical care, social benefits, job opportunities, etc. All provided by the 'hated' Jews.

Quote:

"In Israel there are a lot of benefits and a modern way of life, as well as economic and political stability. You can't compare the lives of Arabs in the Galilee to that of Arabs in Palestine, Lebanon, or Egypt. There is also the element that in Israel there is no concern of an Islamist takeover."

Samuha pointed to responses that showed that 71% of Israel Arabs felt that Israel was a good place to live, while 60% said they felt it was a home and a homeland.

[Sabra]

(11-16-2012 08:12 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

Israel is simultaneously struggling with a growing lower class in the shape of their ultra-orthodox, the Haredi. This group has a large growth rate coupled with an uninterest in taking jobs that are not scholarly. Couple this with the fact that they are exempted from military service unlike all other citizen and you have a large source of internal tension. This would only be an Israeli social problem if it wasn't due to the alarming fact that the Haredi are also typically hardliners when it comes to Gaza.

That's correct Vicious. Thanks for pointing out another aspect of this conflict, albeit peripheral to the discussion at hand.

I understand you're from Sweden. Want to chime in regarding Muslims, anti-Semitism and other crime in Sweden and elsewhere in Europe?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew...rimes.html

[ElJefe]

They should really just drop one nuke a day, every day, until the Arabs surrender and give up. The Japanese were far more competent, more fanatical, more fearless and a lot tougher, and look at them today! Wonderfully peaceful, industrious and probably among our closest allies and the animated porn. Nukes work!

[j r]

(11-16-2012 01:50 PM)ElJefe Wrote:  

They should really just drop one nuke a day, every day, until the Arabs surrender and give up. The Japanese were far more competent, more fanatical, more fearless and a lot tougher, and look at them today! Wonderfully peaceful, industrious and probably among our closest allies and the animated porn. Nukes work!

Which Arabs? And surrender to whom?

[RobP]

Why does anyone care? So like 20 people are dead. In Syria 40,000 are dead. Why the weird and creepy focus on Israel/Palistinians? Get back to me when the death toll reaches 10,000.

[jmoney29]

Neither group is composed entirely of individuals who are a credit to their race.Its not about religion but power.If either side were given full control of the territory(ies), there would still be ambition for more. As a non Jew/Arab American, I am happy that Israel is there to take hits and do our dirty work. That's it. The religious persecution card from both sides is played out.