[Alpha Hunter Zero]

I actually believe in the battle of Armageddon and what many believe is "nonsense". Guess that makes me fucking crazy. Anyway, look at how long these two have been going at it- thousands of years is it? You guys know of any other two nations who have been quarreling that long? All other nations who have had feuds and stuck to their beliefs for centuries eventually either surrendered, let the issue go, or relinquished their beliefs as they approached into modern times. Israelites and Palestines are the only two to ever exist that have stuck by their religions and not let fucking bygones be bygones. With all that fierce loyality you gotta admit there has to be some truth to both their backgrounds.

[Vicious]

(11-16-2012 01:47 PM)Sabra Wrote:  

(11-16-2012 08:12 AM)Vicious Wrote:  

Israel is simultaneously struggling with a growing lower class in the shape of their ultra-orthodox, the Haredi. This group has a large growth rate coupled with an uninterest in taking jobs that are not scholarly. Couple this with the fact that they are exempted from military service unlike all other citizen and you have a large source of internal tension. This would only be an Israeli social problem if it wasn't due to the alarming fact that the Haredi are also typically hardliners when it comes to Gaza.

That's correct Vicious. Thanks for pointing out another aspect of this conflict, albeit peripheral to the discussion at hand.

I understand you're from Sweden. Want to chime in regarding Muslims, anti-Semitism and other crime in Sweden and elsewhere in Europe?

Not sure what you're asking. Anti-semitism in Swe (can't speak for Europe) is largely non existent as a movement.

And that video is missing the whole picture. The city mentioned (Malmö) is turning itself into a shithole due to its populist 'mayor' Illmar Reepalu. But is not any indication of Sweden as a whole, who is farther to the right of this very socialist University city.

[kosko]

(11-16-2012 12:58 PM)rationalize_this Wrote:  

(11-16-2012 10:10 AM)kosko Wrote:  

I'm surprised nobody has stated the obvious fact that Israel has been running a illegal military occupation in the Palestine Territories for decades now.

Israel's greatest enemy and threat to its safety and security is its self. Nobody poses a threat to Israel other than its own Reactionary Policies. Like all Reactionary States that proceeded it Israel will eventually fall. Because Israel does not make any sense. It governs like a female without any logical or rational stances. It breeds perpetual conflict as a means to justify its means. Israel and the Arab conflict will never end because Israel can't live without it. How can Israel return to the prior thousands of years when Arabs and Jews lived in that area in relative peace. It would destroy the shoddy strawman that Israel has built up that everybody is a seething Anti-Semite hell bent on destroying them when it is far from the case. If Israel acted like a honest broker and respected the International Law - the same 'International Law' I add that gives Israel it's legitimacy in the first place - then the conflict would end, literally the next day. This deep religious boondoggle is overblown and limited to only sensitive areas such as Jerusalem and other shared holy spots. But the essence of two different religious and ethnic groups able to live in peace is doable. But it will never be because as I said Israel needs the conflict. It's radical right wing hangs its hat on it. It needs to kill a few of its own from egging on Rocket attacks to justify its whole complex - it makes no sense right? Of course it does not. Israel was never supposed to make sense.

War and conflict will forever be peace to the Zionist right - wing. Israel is the invisible hand that will eventually plunge the globe into another World War.

How can this possibly be correct? You're whole argument is that Israel needs the conflict, and if they gave up the land in dispute, the conflict would simply end.

Sure, if you were dealing with rational people, who weren't religious fanatics being trained at young ages to run into crowded areas with bombs strapped to their chest in return for 20 virgins in heaven, maybe, just MAYBE the conflict would end.

But you're dealing with a race of people who at birth, child-rearing, and adult life make it their life goal to decimate the other culture. If Israel gave them the Gaza strip the attacks would only escalate. The Palestinians aren't after just the piece of land, they won't be happy until Israel, and all of Western Culture is completely destroyed. To them, their life is a small sacrifice to pay for this goal.

And you're argument that Israel simply doesn't make sense? To clarify, I'm not Jewish, or even a crazy "right winger" for that matter, but how does it not make sense that a race that has been persecuted for thousands of years, and virtually exterminated in WWII, doesn't deserve a safe haven for once in history.

Respecting International law? Why don't you ask the Palestinians who are putting their children in terror camps at the ages of 10 and indoctrinating them with a radical interpretation of their own law if they respect International law.

Israel needing to kill some of their own to perpetuate the conflict? You can't be serious here. I don't know if you've ever been to Israel, but the communities and people there are much closer and tight nit than your hold-hand maple syrup loving demographic. Its amazing what collective persecution can do to a people. Think of it like hazing in a fraternity. These people have gone through hell together, and they'll be close forever. These people remember the wars they fought (because they all serve), and the times they've had to live in basements for weeks at a time because threats of chemical gas rockets exploding over Jerusalem and Tel Aviv threatened their very livelihood.

No one wants to live in a perpetual state of conflict. Lets be real here.

You are reaching and just tossing out typical Western views of Israel and the conflict. I really don't like to go down this path with people because it leads me down a dark rabbit hole which I do not like to go down.

First off lets just toss out this notion that Israel and its Jewish people many of which are from Europe and other far flung places are some long standing persecuted group. This is simply not the case. You can make this claim for many other ethnic groups lets not single them out because they have not been the only groups of people to be bullied around, nor have they been the only group of people to have a genocide carried out against them. My people, my own tribe has a genocide carried out agisnt it in the 60's this is not not an experience unique to only one group of people sadly. But this has nothing to do with the current context and situation of Israel and the Palestinian experience. Nothing. So it adds nothing to the discussion so its best to leave it out.

And back to my main point yes. Israel (Right -wing) needs the conflict. How is it to warped to understand. It is a self eating machine this is what all Reactionary Sates do they need perpetual conflict to justify her motives. To give you a more clear cut non-sensitive example this is why the USA has been in conflicts non-stop since Vietnam. The only other true Reactionary State in the globe (The USA) has been in conflict non-stop since then, this is by no mistake. The Reactionary State needs it, there is no other way around it.

Israel has purposely chipped away to create a tinderbox it can manipulate and control. It created the Gaza Zoo to breed conflict as it needs it 100%. To have a greater divine plan/policy you must have a step process to reach that. This is simple strategic gamesmanship.

And yes conflict would largely end. If you take away the occupation on one end then the Arabs have to suck their thumbs and so would Israel. If you end the occupation and both sides are forced to act rationally then there is no need for conflict aside from sensitive areas and zones. How the hell did they manage for the thousands of years prior? How do the Arab-Israelis manage now? Or the Jewish people whom live in Arab nations such as Syria or Lebanon? Why not ask yourselves these questions? How did/do they manage? Why are they not eating each other in the streets of Beirut or Damascus if this hatred is so deep and bitter? And minus the occupation what stance does the Arab bloc have against Israel? Everything else is hype and hot rhetoric hat only exists in the framework of the occupation. Once you remove this rational actions would have to take place from both sides.

The most radical and backwords Arab states S. Arabia and Qatar have no qualms with Israel what do they care about Israel and the Jewish state as they fly around with their hookers and expensive cars. Look back in history to see the silence you have from these two. Saudi Arabia is in the 1700's - literally - and rarely gives off a peep about Israel? Ask yourself why?

As I have said Israel's only enemy is its self.

Lets look at the other side. Try putting yourself in a situation where you literally have nothing but your soul left. Everything has been taking from you - even you dignity. How easy it is for us in the West in a palace of comfort to cast judgement on the Palestinians but ask yourself right now what would you do as a Man if you had zero prospects to prosper and provide. Zero means to legitimately support your family, Zero means to identify with anything. You strip away everything from a man and all you have left is aggression. Simple. This is why a young Palestinian man will throw rocks at a IDF force with machine guns aimed at them. This is the most carnal and raw energy a Man has. Ask yourself what you would do if you were faced with the same prospects. Prisoners have more freedom in most parts of the globe then a typical Palestinian.

(11-16-2012 12:59 PM)Sabra Wrote:  

A few hours ago I was in a bomb shelter listening to alarms go off in the streets of Tel Aviv.

@cardguy - that's possibly the dumbest shit i've ever read. whatever you're smoking, lay off it.

@kosko - that's already the second or third time you've been trolling your anti-Israel bullshit theories on here. Nobody wants to hear your paranoid made up bullshit.

But it's fun for you guys on you sofas debating this issue, huh. Armchair generals and politicians.

One very very simple statement sums this conflict up:
If Israel laid down its arms tomorrow, it would be wiped off the map. If the Arabs laid down their arms tomorrow, there would be peace in the Middle East the next day.

I have my views. If you do not like them please ignore my posts. I would be glad if you do so. I do not have favourable views of the Zionist regime present in Israel. I have no hatred for the Jewish people nor do I have hatred for the Jewish state. I accept that the Jewish state is a legitimate state but must act as a legitimate actor within International law - that is all. Unlike you I have viewed this conflict from both sides, you see in any conflict there is always two sides, each with grievances. If you look at both sides with a critical mind then it becomes clear very quickly whom is the aggressor is and whom the true victim is. If you fail to see this you are are a dupe.

I have hatred for hypocracy and discrimination though and if you can't clearly see if coming from both sides on this issue you are more the shill then me.

We are really calling a group of people with stones and Soviet Rockets the real aggressors when the other sides has a full armed and capable military with NUKES capable of nuking Gaza which is smaller then fuking Vermont back to the stone ages? Like really. I am sure the people of GAZA are mounting with their sticks and stones and rusty Soviet era Rockets, while Israel is mounting with full tech, tanks, Air, Missile, capabilities. Get fucking real. Its 1984 when it comes to Israel in the West. You can't have a rational discourse with anybody whom is shilled in Western Education when it comes to Israel the whole discourse we have been given on Israel from Education to our Media is a warped discourse that holds no logical truth.

You my friend are the shill. All I am stating is the bloody facts and not plastering random memes to convey an emotional response. God bless you and your people but your Government in Israel is batshit nutty and will cause more harm for your people in the long run.

Enough of the Israel fluff and spin that has dominated this thread. Lets look at what is happening on the ground.....


Meanwhile in reality:


-Israel mounts ground forces for a boot-to-the-ground invasion


- Tel Aviv: protest against the activities of the Israeli Air Force over Gaza.


- Of course with any Israel situation only one view is given. The Palestinians have no voice.

3min video of why Israel is a Reactionary mess - Its a snake eating its own tale.

Quote:

On November 14, Hamas military commander Ahmed Jabari was murdered in a Israeli missile attack. In a bitter irony, barely a few hours before the attack, Hamas received the draft proposal of a permanent truce agreement with Israel.

“Hours before Hamas strongman Ahmed Jabari was assassinated, he received the draft of a permanent truce agreement with Israel, which included mechanisms for maintaining the cease-fire in the case of a flare-up between Israel and the factions in the Gaza Strip.”(Haaretz, November 15, 2012)

The targeted assassination of Ahmed Jabari was followed by an extensive bombing campaign under Operation Pillar of Cloud. The latter consists of a carefully planned military endeavor.

F-16 fighter planes, Apache helicopters and unmanned drones were deployed. Israeli naval forces deployed along the Gaza shoreline were involved in extensive shelling of civilian targets.
[--Kosko-- So far sadly the death toll is 28 Palestinians, 3 Israelis]

Israel’s defense minister Ehud Barack has confirmed a scenario of military escalation, blaming Palestine for having committed acts of aggression: .

“[t]he provocations we have suffered and the firing of rockets to the southern settlements within Israel have forced us to take this action. I want to make clear that Israeli citizens will not suffer such actions. The targets are to hit the rockets and to harm the organization of Hamas.”

The Israeli attacks were followed by the firing of dozens of rockets by Hamas against Israel.

Palestine’s response was known to Israeli war planners. The resulting Israeli civilian casualties are now being used to justify military escalation on humanitarian grounds.

What we are dealing with is a carefully planned operation, a clear act of provocation. The deaths of Israeli civilians (envisaged and foreseen by IDF military planners) are being used to muster the support of the Israeli public.

Meanwhile, the Israeli attack is casually portrayed by the Western media as part of a legitimate counter-terrorism agenda.

[cardguy]

Is Iran using Gaza to try and provoke a conflict with Israel? Is this simply supplying Hamas with weapons? Or are they looking to start a fight now as part of some longer term strategy that is in Iran's interests?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...dio-4.html

Just curious as to what the Chief Rabbi of the UK was driving at in the link above. Sorry if my questions are dumb. In my opinion this conflict is not covered well in the UK media. There is a lot of reporting - but very little analysis.

Cardguy

[Samseau]

Whatever the history between the nations in the area, the bottom line is that they will fight until the others no longer exist.

[rationalize_this]

Kosko I'm not going to even bother engaging in this debate with you because you are clinging like a child does his teddybear to two erroneous facts.

1) If Israel simply gave the Palestinians "their" portion of land, all conflict would effectively cease.
2) Jewish people haven't been persecuted, and if they have been, the extent of it was minimal compared to others.

Maple Syrup Sugar high?

[-abe-]

(11-16-2012 03:29 PM)Alpha Hunter Zero Wrote:  

I actually believe in the battle of Armageddon and what many believe is "nonsense". Guess that makes me fucking crazy. Anyway, look at how long these two have been going at it- thousands of years is it? You guys know of any other two nations who have been quarreling that long? All other nations who have had feuds and stuck to their beliefs for centuries eventually either surrendered, let the issue go, or relinquished their beliefs as they approached into modern times. Israelites and Palestines are the only two to ever exist that have stuck by their religions and not let fucking bygones be bygones. With all that fierce loyality you gotta admit there has to be some truth to both their backgrounds.

No, they have not been going at it for a thousand years. Basically, Jews lived in Muslim lands for a thousand plus years and were tolerated far more than they were in Europe. Far, far more. The present conflict almost 100% stems from Israel's arbitrary creation in 1948 and the fact that the people wronged by its creation -- the people the Jews kicked out to make space for themselves -- are still around and have sympathizers. Arab states see in Israel's creation their own impotence, and Israel's rubs this in their face all the time. It's going to end sometime, but with nuclear exchanges and everyone involved losing.

[Hencredible Casanova]

I had the privilege of visiting Israel (Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, Netanya, Haifa) and the Palestinian territories in the West Bank (Hebron, Nablus, Ramallah, and Bethlehem) last year. I was not allowed access into Gaza. Along with having Israeli, Jewish, Arab and Muslim friends, here are my two cents on the conflict:

First, to answer the OP, I do not think there is a viable solution for peace between these two peoples. There are simply too many obstacles that present untenable scenarios.

In the short term, Israel will have the upper hand for quite a while. They have one of the finest military forces in the world (definitely top 5), a top 3 intelligence agency (Mossad), a well-educated and combat-ready general population, a diverse and democratic society, and the full diplomatic, military, financial, and political support of the United States.

In the long term, however, I think Israel faces many existential threats that could jeopardize the survival of the state.

There is simply no scenario I can envision with the Palestinians having an independent and functioning state. Here are a few reasons.

1) The lack of a contiguous link between Gaza and the West Bank. These two territories are bisected by Israel. It's hard to imagine a scenario where the Israelis would give up sovereign territory to link these two populations by land.

2) Israel's demand, in a hypothetical Palestinian state, to have a military presence along the Jordan River at the West Bank's long border with Jordan for security reasons, as well as control of the checkpoints between the West Bank and Israel.

3) Israel's demand of a demilitarized Palestinian state in the event they are granted statehood.

4) The presence of Israeli settlers in the Palestinian West Bank, which now number over 500,000 people.

The idea of Israel absorbing the West Bank, or the West Bank and Gaza, is also unrealistic as that would threaten the character of the country as a Jewish state. The Palestinian birth rate far surpasses that of Israelis. If the territories became part of Israel, the country would be a Muslim-majority country, defeating the purpose of Israel to begin with. Even Israeli leaders are cognizant of this "demographic time bomb" and see how it's crucial to create a political solution to the problem. Unfortunately, there isn't one.

I think the Israelis are banking on the future where Palestinians accept being citizens of two countries: Egypt and Jordan. The Egyptians would annex Gaza while the Jordanians and Israelis would split up the West Bank. This is the only possible winning scenario I could see for Israel.

The Egyptians and Jordanians could easily cut a deal with Israel today over the future of the Palestinians but no one wants to give Israel that kind of peace. I think the Egyptians and Jordanians want to prolong this issue as it serves their interests politically. It's much easier to govern a population that sees Israel as an eternal enemy. Israel is great theater for whole region. Arabs are a resilient people and many hope and bet on Israel falling apart at some point. The toll of living in a military state is having an affect on the Israeli youth. Anyone who's backpacked across South America like Roosh and I have probably met quite a few Israelis who completed their mandatory service and just wanted out of there. Many older Israelis are being lured to the United States. Los Angeles is a huge destination for Israeli immigrants and has the largest population of Israelis outside of Israel.

I know many Israelis personally who wonder how long the state will exist, despite its great strengths. The view of the country in the American media is quite different than that of the people themselves. Many of them feel they narrowly won their wars with the neighboring Arab states in the past and that they are eternally under threat. The Hezbollah War in 2006 is widely seen as a loss.

For the Palestinians, the status quo is simply untenable. There will always be violence so long as the situation in Gaza remains the same. Back when Gaza was first created for the Palestinians, a UN report indicated the population was overcrowded at 300,000. Today Gaza has more than 1.5 million people, many of whom live in hopeless circumstances. Hamas is the democratically elected group to represent the population there. Even if Israel were to invade Gaza on the ground, they will not be able to eliminate Hamas and they are not offering the Palestinians an alternative anyway, so the status quo will remain the same.

The mutual enmity between these peoples is too great for peace to be realized. Over the years the stakes will continue to increase as the technological capabilities of Israel's enemies expand. There is no political solution nor a military nor a diplomatic solution in the foreseeable future.

[Hencredible Casanova]

This is a great documentary of the 1973 war between Egypt and Israel, when the Egyptians won back the Sinai. It breaks down the military maneuvers and weaponry. The outcome of this war forever shattered the psyche of invincibility that the Israelis previously held and its effects are still felt to this day.

[Sabra]

Hencredible Casanova makes some good points. What you have to understand is that 99% of the Israeli population wants nothing to do with the Arabs. Peace treaty or no peace treaty, if they'd leave us alone, we'd be more than happy to do the same.

As far as the Palestinians being absorbed into Egypt and Jordan, we'd love that, but Egypt and Jordan don't want them. The most brutal massacres of Muslims have always been at the hands of other Arabs, not Jews, a fact they'd like to forget. As you mentioned, it's much easier and more politically advantageous to point a finger at a common enemy for the masses to hate.

A few links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast...95517.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_War

Is there a solution to this? I definitely hope so. There's a sad joke in Israel that every generation tells their children, 'by the time you're grown, we won't need to be drafted into the army'. Hasn't worked out that way so far. Anyone who says that we want or need this conflict to continue perpetually is blind to real life (and has never been to Israel). Everyone here serves in the army (with the exception of some religious and a few others). That means that the politicians' kids are serving too, and nobody wants to put their own children in harms way.

In all honesty the two sides aren't that far apart in terms of actual terms of an agreement, but the conditions aren't there right now. There is a ton of animosity on both sides, but there was no less animosity between Catholics and Protestants in Ireland.

[Sabra]

As to those who like to ignore facts and spout conspiracy theories, or those who don't know the history, I'll give the simple facts one more chance to speak for themselves, and then I'll stop beating a dead horse.

Jews have faced prosecution for millennium. That's millennium, not centuries and not decades.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews

At a certain point, mainly during the rise of violent anti-Semitism in Europe, we got sick of it and decided to claim our own country where we could defend ourselves and not be at the mercy of foreign governments. The logical choice was the historical land of Israel, which was not a distinct nation at that time (there was never an actual Palestinian country). Jews starting buying up land, not taking it over.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land..._Palestine

They were often attacked by Arabs at that time, and formed militias to defend themselves. At that time the area was controlled by the Ottoman Empire, but they eventually fell and the British took over.

After WWII the British were being pressed by both the Jews and the Arabs to leave, and they eventually partitioned the land into two states, one Israeli and the other Palestinian. The Jews agreed to this division, the Arabs didn't. The Egyptians, Jordanians, Lebanese, Syrians, and local Arabs all joined forces to attack the Israelis. The Israelis won.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E...sraeli_War

In the years after gaining independence, Israel was frequently attacked by Arab gangs. Egypt then tried to block off Israel by closing access to the Suez Canal, leading to further violence.

In the 60's, the Arab states were trying to divert water sources and cut off Israel's water supply. In 1967 Jordan, Egypt, and Syria started massing forces for a strike on Israel, but Israel hit pre-emptively, ending the conflict in 6 days of fighting.

In '73, Egypt and Syria launched a surprise attack on Yom Kippur, the holiest day of the year for Jews. After initially losing ground, Israel eventually fought back and won, gaining back territory. Later Egypt and Israel were able to reach a peace agreement in return for handing back the Sinai, a piece of land larger than all of the rest of Israel.

In the late 70's, a militant group from Lebanon attacked Israel, killing dozens of civilians. Israel later invaded southern Lebanon, a bad experience for all involved, including an inexcusable incident where Israel turned its back and allowed Lebanese to kill Palestinian refugees.

In the Gulf War, Saddam Hussein fired Scud missiles at Israel, but Israel did not retaliate.

In the 90's there were real steps towards Palestinian-Israeli peace treaty, with the Oslo Accords. But in 2000 Israel offered a plan for the establishment of a Palestinian state, and they turned it down. During this time there were many suicide attacks by Palestinians, aimed almost always against Israeli citizens, not soldiers.

Rocket attacks from Lebanon on Israeli civilian populations, and later from Gaza, led to limited military conflicts continuing until today. At one point Israel had controlled Gaza, but in the name of peace negotiations, we withdrew. Only to have thousands of rockets fired at our civilian populations in the south.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

That's a short summary, but gives an idea of from which side the aggression is coming from. A little map to illustrate the size of the Jewish country compared to the size of Muslim countries



I don't like presenting Israel's history in the form of negativity. We've contributed much to the modern world. Just for example, 165 Jews have won a Nobel prize (as opposed to 7 Muslims, even though they're 100 times larger population than us). We've made breakthroughs in medicine, science, high-tech computing, agricultural, and many other fields of human endeavor.

Despite all this, Jews continue to be persecuted. In Europe, as I was referring to before, Muslim populations, mostly immigrants from North Africa, have become increasingly violent in their anti-semitism.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17534308

Quote:

Five bullet-holes were found in a window of the Yitzhak-Rabin music school in Sarcelles, Paris, apparently aimed at a poster advertising a rally outside a synagogue
A night club owner in Dijon reported receiving death threats and a demand for money by email from someone claiming to be from al-Qaeda and referring to the Merah killings
Three teenage boys reportedly wrote pro-Merah graffiti on an information board opposite the great synagogue in Toulouse
Obscene anti-Semitic graffiti was found on a wall in Sartrouville in the Paris area

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-17426313

Quote:

A gunman has shot dead a teacher and three children at a Jewish school in the French city of Toulouse.

Many naive people think that we should give the Muslims what they want and they will leave us alone. That's called appeasement. It didn't work with Nazi Germany, and it doesn't work with militant Islamism. Unless somebody wants to argue that 9/11 was justified.

At some point you have to pick a side. Criticize America and Israel all you want. Who'd you rather have in charge - the US or al-Qaeda?

[Hencredible Casanova]

(11-16-2012 09:25 PM)Sabra Wrote:  

Hencredible Casanova makes some good points. What you have to understand is that 99% of the Israeli population wants nothing to do with the Arabs. Peace treaty or no peace treaty, if they'd leave us alone, we'd be more than happy to do the same.

As far as the Palestinians being absorbed into Egypt and Jordan, we'd love that, but Egypt and Jordan don't want them. The most brutal massacres of Muslims have always been at the hands of other Arabs, not Jews, a fact they'd like to forget. As you mentioned, it's much easier and more politically advantageous to point a finger at a common enemy for the masses to hate.

A few links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast...95517.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_War

Is there a solution to this? I definitely hope so. There's a sad joke in Israel that every generation tells their children, 'by the time you're grown, we won't need to be drafted into the army'. Hasn't worked out that way so far. Anyone who says that we want or need this conflict to continue perpetually is blind to real life (and has never been to Israel). Everyone here serves in the army (with the exception of some religious and a few others). That means that the politicians' kids are serving too, and nobody wants to put their own children in harms way.

In all honesty the two sides aren't that far apart in terms of actual terms of an agreement, but the conditions aren't there right now. There is a ton of animosity on both sides, but there was no less animosity between Catholics and Protestants in Ireland.

Sabra is a fair-minded person. A lot of times when you talk to Arabs or Israelis you hear a lot of extreme dialogue. He makes fair points.

I can tell everyone honestly that Israeli Arabs (the Palestinians who never left their homes when the State of Israel was created) have a far better life, on average, as Israeli citizens than their counterparts in Arab countries. They represent 20% of Israel's population. They don't have to serve in the IDF (Israeli Defense Forces). They are also provided services in Arabic. They are allowed to worship their religion (yes, there are mosques and churches in Israel; try finding a synagogue or church in Saudi Arabia). They also receive affirmative action in employment AND education. Keep in mind that when the State of Israel was created, most or all of the Jews in the neighboring Arab countries were forced from their homes and fled to Israel. They can never go back to those lands either.

Even with the Arab countries that supposedly have peace with Israel, like Egypt and Jordan, Israelis are not well-received there and anti-semitism is high. I'll never forget walking down a street in Amman, Jordan and seeing the famously anti-semitic text, Protocols of the Elders of Zion, prominently displayed in the window of a bookstore. In Israel, as a democratic society, you have many people with many different opinions, some of which advocate causes on behalf of Palestinians. There are even Israeli Arab politicians who criticize Israeli policy regarding Palestinians.

In the neighboring Arab countries, you are generally not allowed to have an opinion that differs from the mainstream. I couldn't imagine a pro-Israeli activist in a Muslim Arab country. That person's life would immediately be at risk.

Israel doesn't get the credit that it deserves for a lot of its efforts. This needs to be taken into account as well when assessing the country's decisions.

[Hencredible Casanova]

Sabra, I don't know where you got this map from but it's complete BS. Eritrea and Ethiopia are majority Christian countries. Both countries do not have a history of anti-semitism and enjoy good relations with Israel. In fact, Ethiopia is nearly 70% Christian and had a Jewish population (Beta Israel) who now live in Israel. Also, the Eritrean community in Israel is 20,000 - 30,000 strong.

Many of those West African countries highlighted are not majority muslim. 68% of people in Ghana, as just one example, are Christian.

This map is more accurate.



[quote='Sabra' pid='310146' dateline='1353119428']

[dirtypurist]

(11-16-2012 11:42 AM)cardguy Wrote:  

I became alot more interested in the Middle East after learning about The Sampson Option. Apparently Israeli foreign policy is to destroy western cities should Israel itself ever be destroyed. From the point of view of Game Theory it is a rational strategy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option

[FROM WIKIPEDIA]

--------------------------------
Ron Rosenbaum writes in his 2012 book How the End Begins: The Road to a Nuclear World War III that in the "aftermath of a second Holocaust" Israel's surviving Dolphin-class nuclear missile submarines would retaliate not only against Israel's attackers, but "bring down the pillars of the world (attack Moscow and European capitals for instance)" as well as the "holy places of Islam." He writes that "abandonment of proportionality is the essence" of the Samson Option.[23]
--------------------------------

Seems Israel's Sampson Option is reminiscent of the final scene from Reservoir Dogs.

Cardguy

Some idiot made it up to sell a book.

[RobP]

Right you are HencredibleC.
Further points along your line-Sri Lanka's not majority-Muslim either-lol-Buddhists (Sinhalese) and Hindus (Tamils) recently concluded their civil war there! And Philippines is obviously mostly Catholic. Somebody went crazy with their green pen! Also Armenia is incorrectly green.

[iknowexactly]

The protestants and catholics fought for hundreds of years in Europe, didn't they?

[tomtud]

(11-17-2012 12:33 AM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

The protestants and catholics fought for hundreds of years in Europe, didn't they?

This thread is about Israelis and Palestinians today. You should make a thread about that topic if you want. This region has had conflicts for ions. I would like to see once Palestine is given statehood, how they treat their religious minorities because if history is correct, when Islam dominates a country, all other faiths are marginalized directly or indirectly.

[RobP]

The prospect of a Palestinian state is about zero (unless they overthrow King Hussain and take over Jordan). I am anti-Palestinian bc they immigrated to Lebanon (after being driven out of Jordan after Black September) and triggered the Lebanese civil war. Lebanon used to be a really cool place. Thanks to the Palestinians, not so much any more. Whatever you think of Israel, the Palis are culpable for their horrible acts in Lebanon.
[full disclosure my mother is Maronite]

[OGNorCal707]

Isreal is an apartheid state, Palestinians are treated as second class citizens, but are they even really citizens. It's "occupied territory" what does that mean? They don't have an official state, they don't enjoy the benefits that Israelis have, they are forced to live in poor ghettos, walled off, basically living in a prison. They had their homes and villages bulldozed in the name of Israel's security.

Israel wouldn't even exist if the U.S. and England didn't want to create a homeland for Jews after WWII. I believe Arabs occupied that land for about a thousand years prior before the Jews came in and pushed them out.

Oh yeah and the Jews were the original terrorists, ever heard of a little group called the "Irgun"? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun

I'm sure Sabra has plenty to say about them. As far as I'm concerned Israel is committing crimes against humanity in the name of their national security. Can you really blame the Palestinians for hating the Israeli people and wanting to fight for their land.

If millions of Chinese started to flood into the U.S. and take over, all the Americans on this forum would be all about fighting to preserve the nation.

I believe Israel as it is now has a right to exist, but Palestinians have just as much right or more to their own sovereign nation. And for all the talk about how fanatical the Palestinians are lets not forget about the ultra-orthodox extremist Jews and their settlements, they are just as hell bent on stopping a Palestinian state from being created.

It seems like most of the people on this forum are brainwashed by anti-Palestinian, pro-Israeli propaganda.

[billy]

People's downright ignorance on this topic astounds me to be honest. Just to help the pro Israel body along why don't some of you look at the list of concessions offered in terms of land to Israel in some peace talks. Palestinians accepted almost every single land grab Israel demanded and still had no agreement because they were offered no right of return for refugees and refused to agree to Israel being a Jewish state for Jewish people. What ever concessions Palestians make Israel move the goal posts because it is on their best interest to do so. They can and will keep the conflict going for as long as it suits them.

[Deluge]

(11-17-2012 04:46 AM)OGNorCal707 Wrote:  

Oh yeah and the Jews were the original terrorists, ever heard of a little group called the "Irgun"? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun

LOL, I actually know an old lady who fought in that on the ground when she was a teenager during the very first Arab-Israeli War. Never knew she was a terrorist.

[Alpha Hunter Zero]

@-abe-: You say I am wrong and that Israel and Palestine have not been fighting for 1000 years, they have been fighting for 1000+ years. You should have read my post more carefully instead of blatantly firing away. No where on my comment is listed EXACTLY 1000 years.

[ElJefe]

Lol, you guys crack me up. Just read the wikipedia articles instead of mindlessly reiterating left-wing talking points and Arab propaganda. Your posts are full of errors, but if you read the articles you'll fix most of them, I'm sure. Seriously. Read the articles, which will be under the highest scrutiny due to the subject's controversy, then see if you still believe what you write.

You have to be absolutely deluded and brainwashed to think there is some kind of moral symmetry here. Read up on the Rules of War. If you can't discern between who's behaving badly and who's not, you need a head-check and to re-examine your red-pill status.

[billy]

Sabra your post is typical Israeli propaganda bullshit, you seem incapable of seeing past your indoctrination into the reality of a situation where an invading force has taken land by force and repeatedly targeted and killed innocent civilians. since the 1800's Israel has been trying to claim Israel without a single care in the world for the people already there. TO claim any different is a complete revision of history.

[Captain Ahab]

I have to say, the responses have been amazing. I am becoming much more informed about the topic thanks to everyone's contributions.

I did a good amount of research last night on the topic. I am not sure how anyone can be on the side of one camp very strongly.

It is one thing to frame the debate in regards to Israel's security and right to exist, taking into account the numerous acts of terrorism they have suffered, persecution over the years, the holocaust, etc, I can see why Israel is hell bent on keeping the state of Israel as a safe haven for Jews.

However, the problem is international law, UN resolutions, and the denial of the Palestinian's rights.

And that is where things get tricky.


Essentially the conflict boils down to four things:

1. Boarders
2. Settlements
3. Jerusalem
4. Right of Return


1. Boarders 3. Jerusalem


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nat...lution_242

Quote:

The preamble[3] emphasizes the "inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in the Middle East in which every State in the area can live in security."

Operative Paragraph One "Affirms that the fulfillment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:
(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;
(ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force." [4]

So, according to this resolution, the occupation of the West Bank, Jerusalem, and Gaza is illegal under international law. Since those territories were taken through war they should be given back to the Palestinians.

2. Settlements

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Geneva_Convention

Quote:

Section III. Occupied territories
Articles 47-78 impose substantial obligations on occupying powers. As well as numerous provisions for the general welfare of the inhabitants of an occupied territory, an occupier may not forcibly deport protected persons, or deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into occupied territory (Art.49).

So, according to the Fourth Geneva conventions, the settlements are illegal and should be torn down.


4. Right Of Return

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Resolution_194

Quote:

The resolution consists of 15 articles, the most quoted of which are:
Article 7: protection and free access to the Holy Places
Article 8: demilitarization and UN control over Jerusalem
Article 9: free access to Jerusalem
Article 11: calls for the return of refugees
United Nations General Assembly Resolution 273 admitted Israel to the United Nations on May 11, 1949, after Israel consented to implement other UN resolutions including resolutions 194 and 181.

So, according to this resolution, the Palestinians have a right to return to their homes in Israel.


The crisis in the region did not start when Israelis kicked out the Palestinians from their homes in Israel under the pretext of war. It started when after the war had ceased the Israelis did not allow the Palestinians to return to their homes in Israel. Thus was born the Palestinian refugee problem.


The right of return for the Palestinians was denied.


Now, I am not necessarily arguing for a right of return. I understand that the issue is complicated.

But one thing is for certain:

I can see the point of view of the Israeli when you frame the debate in terms of what Israel wants. However, when you frame the debate in terms of what the Palestinians are entitled to under international law, we have a very different picture than what is painted by the Western media.