Quote: (09-27-2012 05:03 PM)Samseau Wrote:
Not at all, my opinion is based on people who have five times the experience either of us have.
So is mine.
You vastly underestimate the extent of my knowledge. You seem to think that I (along with most others here who could be swayed one way or another by this discussion) am much more naive than is actually the case.
Quote:Quote:
You talk a lot about the game. But you don't win the game. The game wins you.
This is the type of defeatist logic I see from those who are looking to build an argument against game.
They're right-99% of guys can't learn game or really make it work for them. 99% of them will lose that battle. I decided not to join them.
I'm sure 99% of those folks fit the paradigm in the professional world that you are outlining. I don't plan on joining them, and I know plenty of folks who avoided it.
You give the system too much credit-it can be gamed, and it will be gamed.
It doesn't seem like we'll ever agree on this, and that's fine-I do not need to convince you.
Quote:Quote:
Thousands of lawyers choose to give up a healthy, happy, well-balanced life for a less healthy, less happy life dominated by work. And they do so merely to be able to make seven or eight times the national median income instead of five or six times the national median income.
Already, this article is focused on one aspect of "BigLaw" (read: firms where six-figure salaries are the norm). It is talking about a certain kind of BigLaw firm which, admittedly, is the most common kind. Lifestyle firms do exist, and can be found if you are someone who is willing to throttle down on some of that prestige and perhaps give up the possibility of seeing that $400,000 bonus at the end of the year.
I'll agree with this author in saying that the vast majority of folks shooting for "BigLaw" are incapable of doing this. They are hyper-competitive, and have been that way since the very beginning. A firm that is merely at the bottom of the AMLAW 100 isn't enough. They could go to a smaller firm with more congenial co-workers and a better work-life balance, and probably still make 5-6 times the national median income.
But they can't. They need to go to the right school and then work for the big name and the earn the big money, and they need to do it now. They need the big-firm lifestyle, the giant house out in fairfield county (or northern NJ), and all the other trappings of the elite life. They need the Big-Law money for this, and as a result they'll never stop competing. It is all about the lifestyle and the "prestige", not the money. These people start competing in high school-I see these personalities all the time on campus. I could start a whole new thread about their antics-I have this broken down to a
science.
This will be a revelation to you, but I am a) fully aware of every pitfall outlined in this article and b) not as into the aforementioned money chase as you mentioned. I'm also not nearly as malleable ("it will change you!!!11!!") as you think either. I know that BigLaw is a grinder with an absurd turnover rate, and I am fully prepared for any scenario in which I become part of that high turnover. That isn't the end of the road-you seem not to realize this.
Also, I'm not a special snowflake. There are plenty of other wannabe-attorneys out there who are capable of being realistic about all this, and ready to do so. Not having a crushing undergrad debt load helps as well (some of the gunners are partially motivated by that albatross).
Quote:Quote:
Well, some are, but it is more complicated than that. For one thing, lawyers don't think in these terms. They don't see their lives as crazy. Lawyers don't see any of this. Lawyers don't sit down and think logically about why they are leading the lives they are leading any more than buffalo sit down and think logically about why they are stampeding. That is the primary reason I am writing this Article: I hope that you will sit down and think about the life that you want to lead before you get caught up in the stampede.
Did it, mostly by browsing several large forums and reading dozens of articles just like this one, as well as soliciting advice from folks with real experience. I do not come to my conclusions irrationally, and when I do make conclusions they tend to be based on sound reasoning. I think most of those who know me on this forum and in real life can attest to that.
Quote:Quote:
More importantly, though, the flaw in my analysis is that it assumes that the reason lawyers push themselves to make so much money is the money itself. In other words, my analysis assumes that the reason lawyers want to earn more money is that they want to spend more money and enjoy the things that money will buy.
College taught me how and why this is flawed. I know these people already-they aren't that hard to spot or figure out.
And no, I'm not one of them.
Quote:Quote:
Big firm lawyers are, on the whole, a remarkably insecure and competitive group of people.
That's the perfect description for me prior to my discovering this forum and learning game. Incredibly insecure, obsessed with attaining and maintaining validation, constantly competing even when I did not need to be and often hurting those near me in the process, pushing friends away with my need to tame my insecurity by trying to place myself "above" them in sports, academics, and everything else.
I changed, and I did that
the hard way. I paid a heavy price for my insecurity. Your entire argument presumes that I've not done this, which is why we'll never agree. I'm not done growing, but I am above the challenge that you and this author are presenting right now.
Quote:Quote:
And you think you'll be different?
You're a nobody. We're all nobody's. None of us are unique.
1. My approach does not require you to be a "somebody".
2. My approach does not require you to be particularly "unique".
3. You overestimate the system and underestimate the individual. Your argument just isn't compelling in the face of all the information I have.
Quote:Quote:
You're dealing with forces far more powerful than you'll ever comprehend.
Abandon your account on this forum, quit game, and go join the blue-pill-taking 99% who cannot comprehend it.
Quote:Quote:
Here is the problem, though: After you start practicing law, nothing is likely to influence you more than "the culture or house norms of the agency, department, or firm" in which you work. 255 If you are going into private practice--particularly private practice in a big firm--you are going to be immersed in a culture that is hostile to the values you now have.
This varies by firm, of course. You can find what you'd like if you want it, but, as I said before, you'll have to give up your half a million dollar bonus dream and perhaps agree to live in "less exciting" places with less "prestigious" names on your card.
90% of folks can't do this, even in the long term. Too bad for them.
Quote:Quote:
Now, no one is going to say this to you. No one is going to take you aside and say, "Jane, we here at Smith & Jones are obsessed with money. From this point forward the most important thing in your life has to be billing hours and generating business. Family and friends and honesty and fairness are okay in moderation, but don't let them interfere with making money."
Nobody needs to say that for me to know it. I learned all about this level of society and the folks in it while in college. Adapting to their world was challenging, but quite rewarding in the end. I know all about them now.
Quote:Quote:
Instead, the culture will pressure you in more subtle ways to replace your values with the system's.
Kind of like the beta-dominated matrix that every red-pill taker lives in? The system that fills our televisions, radios, live events and general existence with emasculating BS?
Tell me, how'd you and I get around
that challenge?
Quote:Quote:
Here is an example of what I mean: During your first month working at the big firm, some senior partner will invite you and the other new associates to a barbeque at his home. This "barbeque" will bear absolutely no relationship to what your father used to do on a Weber grill in your driveway. You will drive up to the senior partner's home in your rusted Escort and park at the end of a long line of Mercedeses and BMWs and sports utility vehicles. You will walk up to the front door of the house. The house will be enormous. The lawn will look like a putting green; it will be bordered by perfectly manicured trees and flowers. Somebody wearing a white shirt and black bow tie will answer the door and direct you to the backyard. You will walk through one room after another, each of which will be decorated with expensive carpeting and expensive wallpaper and expensive antiques. Scattered throughout the home will be large professional photographs of beautiful children with tousled, sunbleached hair.
As you enter the partner's immaculately landscaped backyard, someone wearing a white shirt and black bow tie carrying a silver platter will approach you and offer you an appetizer. Don't look for cocktail weenies in barbeque sauce; you will more likely be offered pate or miniature quiches or shrimp. A bar will be set up near the house; the bartender (who will be wearing a white shirt and black bow tie, of course) will pour you a drink of the most expensive brand of whatever liquor you like. In the corner of the yard, a caterer will be grilling swordfish. In another corner will stand the senior partner, sipping a glass of white wine, holding court with a worshipful group of junior partners and senior associates.
The senior partner will be wearing designer sunglasses and designer clothes; the logo on his shirt will signal its exorbitant cost; his shorts will be pressed. He will have a tan--albeit a slightly orange, tanning salon enhanced tan--and the nicest haircut you've ever seen. [b]Eventually, the partner will introduce you to his wife. She will be beautiful, very thin, and a lot younger than her husband. She, too, will have a great tan, and not nearly as orange as her husband's. You and the other lawyers will talk about golf. Or about tennis. After a couple hours, you will walk out the front door, slightly tipsy from the free liquor, and say to yourself, "This is the life."
Seen this a million times-same lifestyle repeated again and again. My school is filled with this narrative and the products of it. I used to dream about it-it was all I wanted and all I competed for in college and in high school.
Then I grew up, learned game and learned the hard way about the pitfalls of all that and of my own insecure jockeying for it. This is not "the life"*. I don't need the tan (I'm black, remember?) nor do I need the marriage (game opened my eyes to that trap), or the giant house for show (don't want the huge mortgage).
I've learned this lessons
now-I'm not going to need to re-learn them then.
*I will concede that I kinda do want the fly, somewhat expensive car, but it'll still be used. I'm willing to compromise further there too if need be-I like the $30,000 Infiniti/Lexus as much as the $100,000 Aston Martin.
Quote:Quote:
You will work among lawyers who will talk about money constantly and who will be intensely curious about how much money other lawyers are making.[/b]
I used to be like that. That's another lesson I learned-shut up about money.
Quote:Quote:
"What do you mean? How could working in a high-powered firm make you a worse person?"
There are about a million answers I can give you myself aside from the ones this article will provide. None of them are things I'm unprepared for (especially the whole making-up billable hours deal).
Quote:Quote:
"But I'm not like that. I'm going to go in, take what I want, and get out."
Yeah, pretty much.
Quote:Quote:
"I'm different from the rest."
And so are you-that's why you're on this site.
Quote:Quote:
But the irony is that if you go in not wanting to play the game but intending to make money, then you will end up not making less money.
I fixed that for you.
You'll can go into this career and get plenty of cash while avoiding some of its worst aspects, but you will (as I've said twice before in this post-I hope it has sunk in) have to give up some money and prestige.
Like the author said-play the game right and you'll make 7-8 times the national median income like all of these competitive folks. Compromise and you can make 5-6 times that income instead. Again, most are unwilling to take that hit. Some are. My goals (financial stability, fully-paid condo/townhome, eventual expatriation, etc) do not require the maximum income. I don't need to make partner at a V50 firm to get where I want in life (though putting in a few years as an associate at one wouldn't hurt-even if that doesn't happen I'll be fine, there are literally hundreds of other opportunities available that I'm open to).
You can enter this field and make it work for you in the long term, but it will involve a) discipline, b) realism and c) a willingness to give and take that few in this society have maintained (being a bit of a foreigner helps me with this last one).
Most can't do it, I agree, but it is intellectually disingenuous to dismiss the possibility, and your argument is based on doing just that.