[eveningdiary]

This is question for good looking guys, or people who happen to have this problem too. Do women tend to be defensive around you? I've been seeing this trend a lot growing up. My classmate a few days ago even said that people must see me as a piece of meat.

I was at the bus stop a few days ago and asked someone when the bus came and then asked her if she worked at a certain business nearby because she was dressed in a certain way. She responded to me passively. There was a guy next to us who was wearing baggy clothes, a hoodie, and just looked like he didn't want to get up that morning. The girl was married and she didn't seem that fun to talk to. When I left, I noticed her talking to the other guy. She seemed more receptive. From what I could hear the conversation was bland with common questions, but somehow she just seemed more outgoing. She laughed. She was friendly. When she got on the bus, she took the seat that was available next to me, and two minutes after I started talking to her she took her phone out and started texting. Seemed plausible. Maybe I came off a certain way to her.

Then, later in the day, I'm getting groceries and I'm at the check out line. The girl at the register is talking to me in this kind of passive aggressive sort of way. Like she's exercising her wit on me. It felt exactly like the same way a customer would talk down to a stripper because it's a man's opportunity to shut down a really attractive person. I was buying wasabi peas.

"Do you like these?"
"No, I like girls," she said.
"Great. . . I don't need to know that."

I didn't know what her problem was.

This happened last weekend. I didn't want to write about it because I thought it wasn't a big deal. BUT! I came into class late today and after class, I asked this girl in class if I could take a look at her notes. I simply chose her because she seemed smart and she tends to participate a lot in class. This is our conversation...

"Hey, did you take notes?"
"Yes."
"Would you mind if I take a look at them?"
"No. They are for my eyes only."
"Umm okay."

I didn't think of it in any way until I noticed her puny boyfriend, who I didn't know was her boyfriend, forcefully displaying possession of his girlfriend by putting his arm around her awkwardly as they walked out of the classroom.

WTF????

I've noticed this a lot in my life. That girl in the beginning who said that people must use me as a piece of meat, also said that I tend to have a presence. I know this, but at the same time, I tried to brush it off and say that I never noticed.

"Don't tell me this is the first time you've noticed this. . ." she said. Trying to beat in my head that I must be a certain subset of male that gives off a certain esteem.

What's up with this? What should I do?

Honestly, I don't see a way out of this. This isn't just girls. I've had a lot of guy friends who use to talk down to me in the past because I tend to give off this certain "presence." I would have really close friends and I would meet their friends and those other friends just didn't like me. They couldn't explain it. I would overhear them saying things like, "I just don't like that guy." I've lost friends because of this. I've lost people who are close to me because of this. No matter how much I tried to keep those friendships by changing myself, it just seemed to be an issue in themselves that I could not change no matter what I did. I've had girls tell me that their boyfriends specifically asked them not to hang out with me on several occasions, even when I made an honest effort not to talk to either of them. It's really ridiculous!

It just seems that everyone gets defensive around me. Not only that, it seems like people feel threatened around me and they need to attack me in some way.

This is a problem. What should I do?

I'm sure I'm not the only one with this quality.

[polymath]

You're probably coming across as too interested in getting something from these people. Your openers are indirect but your body language and face probably telegraph too much attraction.

Instead of asking the girl if she likes wasabi peas, you could have said something like, "these are so spicy that they make my nose hurt, but I love them."

Now you're not fishing for a conversation with questions, you're building one with statements.

When it comes to borrowing notes, some people are just uppity. I usually ask for notes by saying, "hey I wasn't here last time. Can I take a look at your notes to catch up?" Giving an explanation helps the person rationalize helping you out. I've seen guys do all sorts of stupid shit when they want to show possession of a girl, but in this case her boyfriend doesn't sound like he had anything to do with her denial of your request to see her notes.

You seem to blame other people for your situation. Stop doing that. Take ownership of your social life and fix it. It's not because you're a piece of meat. What the hell does that even mean? If women are being defensive, you should tone yourself down until you see them easing up and getting comfortable.

To be honest, I'm betting you would benefit from a little more humility too. What does it mean to "give off a certain esteem"? Why do you have to describe the boyfriend as "puny," and the guy at the bus stop as someone who "looked like he didn't want to get up that morning"? It seems like these guys are getting the treatment that you would like to get, so stop criticizing them and learn a thing or two instead.

[20Nation]

When you're better looking its easier to come across as arrogant. When you talk to people your main frame of mind should be "Be charming". It will help you to use your looks to benefit you, and you won't come across as arrogant.

[teh_skeeze]

Attractive people will always be treated differently because everybody wants to be in the good graces of people they find sexy. You could have a dude that can run through any 6 in a venue have spaghetti fall out of his pockets the second he runs into a 9.

Without knowing more about how you run game, I'm going to have to agree with polymath. You probably have that "kid on Christmas morning" look in your eyes. Then, when it looks like they flirting, you shrink because you don't really know where to take it, and you lose frame. You need to do more approaches, and probably change the way you dress. Style makes a huge difference. If I don't shave for a few weeks and I dress like I'm heading to a punk show (like a homeless guy), people tend to be afraid of me. When I trim up, and wear a dress shirt, slacks, and my leather dress shoes, people are a lot more receptive towards me. Granted, I can talk to people and have them be friendly once I start talking, but first impressions do make a difference.

As for your wasabi peas story here's how I would have handled it:

"Do you like these?"
"No, I like girls,"
[shit eating grin]"Hey, we got something in common. I like girls too! What a coincidence."

Even the most man hating, short haired bull dyke will smile at that. As for the notes, well that's what you get for trying to ride the coattails of a woman in academia. You should do your own work.

[pitt]

In all honesty, i doubt you are really a good looking guy because other wise you wouldnt get so many negative responses. Just how life is easier for people who are rich, life is also easier for good looking people.

I knew this cat back in my college who didnt know shit about women and was probably a virgin at the time. He used to get lots of attention from girls but he just wasnt interested in fucking with them. I remember one time he said hi to this super hot chick that i never had the balls to talk to and she was all over him..but of course his stupid ass couldnt move things into another stage.

Your openings dont come across as being arrogant.

Do you do lots of online gaming? How is the ROI on it? If you are not getting lots of attention on it then you may be deceiving yourself about your looks. Or you may be a good looking guy with a nerdy vibe..try ask someone that will probably hate on you and then take it from there.it should make you stronger in the long run, dont worry.

[eveningdiary]

(09-11-2012 11:33 PM)pitt Wrote:  

In all honesty, i doubt you are really a good looking guy because other wise you wouldnt get so many negative responses. Just how life is easier for people who are rich, life is also easier for good looking people.

I knew this cat back in my college who didnt know shit about women and was probably a virgin at the time. He used to get lots of attention from girls but he just wasnt interested in fucking with them. I remember one time he said hi to this super hot chick that i never had the balls to talk to and she was all over him..but of course his stupid ass couldnt move things into another stage.

Your openings dont come across as being arrogant.

Do you do lots of online gaming? How is the ROI on it? If you are not getting lots of attention on it then you may be deceiving yourself about your looks. Or you may be a good looking guy with a nerdy vibe..try ask someone that will probably hate on you and then take it from there.it should make you stronger in the long run, dont worry.

Nope! I'm a good looking guy...

[eveningdiary]

After reading a lot of what you guys said, I do believe a lot of it makes sense. I really need to build a personality around being charming especially over other qualities. Yes, I still believe more attractive people tend to get more attention so I should really, not exactly watch what I say, but moreso try to come off as good hearted.

Quote:

As for your wasabi peas story here's how I would have handled it:

"Do you like these?"
"No, I like girls,"
[shit eating grin]"Hey, we got something in common. I like girls too! What a coincidence."

I do agree 100% on this. I should've handled it a lot better.

Quote:

Your openings dont come across as being arrogant.

I just want to throw it out there, that I do agree with this. My openings were NOT arrogant. If I have to change the way I speak simply because I can't ask the girl in my class if I could borrow her notes OR ask the girl that works at the grocery store if she likes a certain grocery product, then I'm either thinking way too hard about this or worrying about things I can't control. I can't expect everyone to be a certain way. I'm certainly not going to articulate a personality that's able to please everyone. I will try to be more charming though.

Thanks guys! Really appreciate it.

[Duke Castile]

This is a stage in your game that is unique to good looking dudes. Girls see you and want to put you down a peg because they assume that you're arrogant and want to show you that you aren't all that (think negging). The truth is, at this point you've never had any real success so you aren't understanding why they're treating you this way.

The other sad truth, is that guys can be just as catty and bitchy as women. They resent you for being good looking. This is what I run into now more than anything. At crossfit for example, I like to train with my shirt off. It isn't because I'm trying to show off, I am simply more comfortable. I had a bunch of dudes HATING on me and calling me a douchebag to the girls I later fucked. They weren't as lean and weren't as fit, so they were hating. I may actually be getting a condo with one of those guys now because after while, he realized I was just old school cool.

What you have to do, is change gears on these people and give them a dimension of you they don't expect, and that's where being charming like the other posters have advised comes in.

You will always run into girls who get off on shutting down guys, especially good looking guys because they are small people trying to validate their small existence at your expense. Insecure guys, will always call you a douche (and I'm operating under the assumption that you don't dress in affliction tshirts) simply because you make them feel insecure.

Don't fall into the temptation to be overly self deprecating or humble to win them over, they won't respect your efforts and will think even less of you. Remember, they're small, so you have to show them you're simply a cool motherfucker that they'd like to get to know.

The one thing wrong with your interactions is that you aren't handling the initial negative reaction well. You have to turn it around on them. It's understandable that you shutdown after those reactions (frankly I'd like to bitch slap most people) but you're missing valuable opportunities to work on your witty reply arsenal. Who gives a shit if you say something dumb? Being clever is a muscle that you have to work out. Think of it as training but always be prepared to say something along the lines of "Who the fuck do you think you're talking to?" You have to check some people.



Also bro, on another note, don't complain about being too good looking.

[anewtypedude]

I am a pretty good looking guy too and I am a little past your stage. A lot of times, you just need to be friendly to girls and don't be an arrogant jerk. Good-looking guy game and ass-hole game don't mix very well. I find that if you just forget that you are good looking when interacting with girls, you will come off as more charming.

However, I never was able to get past the dudes hating part. One girl introduced me to one of her guy friends, and the guy just turned around and walked away like wtf. Another girl invited me to her party, the girls are nice, but the dudes won't even talk to me. I have no interest in gaming dudes, but they make things awkward for me. Some dudes won't even look me in the eyes and/or give me attitudes. Anyone got a fix for this dilemma? I am more of the pretty boy kind of good looking then the jacked kind of good looking, maybe that has something to do with it.

[DriftWood]

Check your posture/body language and voice tonality to make sure your exuding a friendly and confident persona. If you give off a meek vibe, all the good looks in the world aren't going to help you. In fact, it's just weird when someone good looking comes across as feeble and insecure. Considering the degree to which you over analyze your daily interactions with other people and put so much stock into how you think they should be behaving around you, perhaps this could possibly be the case?

[Screwston]

Read this thread.

http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-7069.html

The only thing I can recommend is not being a cocky, arrogant asshole to much. It took me a long time to realize this. It can be hard to know where to draw the line because you HAVE to act like that with American girls. I suck with words so I can't explain it, but I kind of know when to tone it down with certain girls. You can tell when they start getting turned off by it.

Remember that you're only gonna be sexy to certain girls. I would strike out hard if I went to some yuppie bar full of blondes, but would have girls raping me if I was in a high school senior Algebra class. Unless you look like Deb Auchery, you're not gonna be a God in every lizard's eyes so don't get to full of yourself.

[eveningdiary]

Thanks Fisto and anewtypedude! Glad to see two people coming from the same background. I really agree with what both you guys said. It makes a lot of sense to me.

Quote:

The one thing wrong with your interactions is that you aren't handling the initial negative reaction well. You have to turn it around on them. It's understandable that you shutdown after those reactions (frankly I'd like to bitch slap most people) but you're missing valuable opportunities to work on your witty reply arsenal. Who gives a shit if you say something dumb? Being clever is a muscle that you have to work out. Think of it as training but always be prepared to say something along the lines of "Who the fuck do you think you're talking to?" You have to check some people.

I would love to know how to start with this. I believe working out this "muscle" will help me move forward.

Earlier polymath wrote:

Quote:

Why do you have to describe the boyfriend as "puny," and the guy at the bus stop as someone who "looked like he didn't want to get up that morning"? It seems like these guys are getting the treatment that you would like to get, so stop criticizing them and learn a thing or two instead.

and Fisto wrote:

Quote:

because they are small people trying to validate their small existence at your expense. Insecure guys, will always call you a douche (and I'm operating under the assumption that you don't dress in affliction tshirts) simply because you make them feel insecure.

I like how Fisto describes these types of people relatively similar to the way I describe them. I was thinking that I had to become apologetic and self deprecating. Thanks Fisto!

About the guy hating thing. I don't see a way around it to be honest. I lost a lot of good friends out there because of their insecurity. They're great guys and I loved them for who they were, but they were completely different when girls were around. They would cut me down almost instantly and constantly. It's a bummer. In 2009 my friends would specifically select when I could hang out with them. Apparently I could only hang out with them at their house, but not when it was a social event. I decided that was pretty lame of them. I'm currently friends with people who play in a band. They're cool when were all chilling together or with really close friends, but not when it's a party with people we don't know. I can't control this. I've just come to accept it. I've accept that I have to do my own thing apart from them.

I've just recently been advancing with my game so I completely understand that you guys notice that it seems like I'm reaching a certain confusing point. This is true. I've been doing a lot of the reading and even some rereading. Logistics has helped a buttload! Zinc has helped a buttload! I worry less and just am more active. I've been doing a lot more than I have ever done in the past.

And yes again, I am relatively above average with my looks. However, I wasn't really raised in the most convenient fashion. I hope that explains it and that I don't have to go into detail.

Thanks for all the help guys. If I could get some pointers on how to seem more charming and how to take steps in replying with more wit, than I would really appreciate it.

[20Nation]

(09-12-2012 01:21 AM)anewtypedude Wrote:  

I am a pretty good looking guy too and I am a little past your stage. A lot of times, you just need to be friendly to girls and don't be an arrogant jerk. Good-looking guy game and ass-hole game don't mix very well. I find that if you just forget that you are good looking when interacting with girls, you will come off as more charming.

However, I never was able to get past the dudes hating part. One girl introduced me to one of her guy friends, and the guy just turned around and walked away like wtf. Another girl invited me to her party, the girls are nice, but the dudes won't even talk to me. I have no interest in gaming dudes, but they make things awkward for me. Some dudes won't even look me in the eyes and/or give me attitudes. Anyone got a fix for this dilemma? I am more of the pretty boy kind of good looking then the jacked kind of good looking, maybe that has something to do with it.

You probably aren't very big in terms of muscle. When a guy see's another guy who's huge, there's an animal respect. When a guy see's a good looking guy who's not ripped he just sees competition. Hit the gym and go for bulk

[20Nation]

Quote:

Thanks for all the help guys. If I could get some pointers on how to seem more charming and how to take steps in replying with more wit, than I would really appreciate it.

You want to seem more charming? Watch videos, movies, and interviews with George Clooney. He has charm down to an art. Study when he smiles, how he smiles, how he speaks, how he holds himself. How he looks when he makes his jokes. Not too mention the more you study him, the more you will subconsciously become more like him

[peterthephoenix]

From the sounds of it, somethings off with your inner game. Like your mindsets, behaviours, mannerisms aren't quite right and you might need to get a bit introspective to fix them. For your 'friends' not to take you to parties because you're too good looking sounds like a load of shit.

I know a few really attractive dudes who always get invited to events by guys and girls. On the flipside of that I know below-average looking dudes who do just as well socially.

It's not your looks. It's how you treat people.

I've struggled with not being 'cool' enough to hang out with people and these are my thoughts:
- Dial the neediness down to 0. Not in the 'fuck you, I don't need you!' way but in the 'It's cool that you can't make it, I'm gonna go to the event anyway'
- Be very laid back and non-judgemental
- Try to build on what people said to keep the flow of conversation going

[saturn]

Forget about your looks, you seem way to hung up on them. Concentrate on having a good time and the results will follow.

[sixsix]

You need different game when you're hot.

Normal game uses a lot of techniques that are meant to close the value gap between you and the girl.

When you're physically hot, you're already high value and you are expected to be secure about it. It should be normal to you, like it is to a hot girl. So if you're too cocky you just seem incongruent and like a weird dick.

Like someone else said, be charming. You can be a gentleman because it won't make you look weak. It makes you seem achievable. Same reason famous (preselected) artists can sing shitty beta love songs.

I also learnt this the hard way. Am learning it still, actually. Pretty chill problem.

[dog24]

(09-12-2012 12:56 AM)Fisto Wrote:  

Don't fall into the temptation to be overly self deprecating or humble to win them over, they won't respect your efforts and will think even less of you.

So much this...
I would say avoid trying to be more friendly, my guess is people are already seeing you as weak, and since you look good they try to take value away from you.
You should demand respect if you want people to treat you nicely.
How much do you weigh? Can you hold your own in a fight?
Also what kind of girls are defensive towards you? If they are 6 below girls, i would say get used to it.

"I've had a lot of guy friends who use to talk down to me in the past because I tend to give off this certain "presence." I would have really close friends and I would meet their friends and those other friends just didn't like me. They couldn't explain it. I would overhear them saying things like, "I just don't like that guy." I've lost friends because of this. I've lost people who are close to me because of this".
I bet i lost more friends than you, the guys that eventually changed their mind about me, and gave me an opportunity are the ones that found out, i spent many years training martial arts.

[Feo]

(09-12-2012 07:19 PM)dog24 Wrote:  

I would say avoid trying to be more friendly, my guess is people are already seeing you as weak, and since you look good they try to take value away from you.

Also what kind of girls are defensive towards you? If they are 6 below girls, i would say get used to it.

Dog hit the nail on the head. Adding to everyone else I'd say don't get serious with the first decent girl you come across because she doesn't have that initial defensiveness. I wasted 4 years of my mid-20s because of it.

[flyfreshandyoung]

Second Fisto. That's probably one of the best summaries I've seen of this phenomenon.

I would also add that yeah sometimes these girls are stand offish because they want to take you down a peg, but sometimes these girls, especially 7s and 6s, are stand offish because they are life "wow why is this guy talking to me". Their player radar is on high alert because they know they aren't in you're league and automatically assuming the worst of you.

Disarm with charm either way.

[kinjutsu]

To eveningdiary...story of my fucking life brother.

Sometimes is get a preemptive shit test. For example, i was wait for my bus to school a few years ago. Had my earbuds in couldn't hear the girl beside me talking to me. I pulled one out to hear what she was saying. I say "Pardon me?". She says " You dont even know my name and you're playing hard to get"
This girl was a 6.5 at best. Not worth talking to during daylight hours. I gave her a strange look then put my earbud back in and ignored the constant eye fucking she gave me for the rest of my bus ride.

[teh_skeeze]

You must have it really good if a 6.5 practically throwing herself at you isn't worth your time.

[dirtman]

Check out FFY's post here: http://flyfreshandyoung.wordpress.com/20...s-act-shy/

As well as some other posts he has on the topic, good stuff: http://flyfreshandyoung.wordpress.com/?s=GLDG

[seeker04542]

(09-12-2012 01:21 AM)anewtypedude Wrote:  

I am a pretty good looking guy too and I am a little past your stage. A lot of times, you just need to be friendly to girls and don't be an arrogant jerk. Good-looking guy game and ass-hole game don't mix very well. I find that if you just forget that you are good looking when interacting with girls, you will come off as more charming.

However, I never was able to get past the dudes hating part. One girl introduced me to one of her guy friends, and the guy just turned around and walked away like wtf. Another girl invited me to her party, the girls are nice, but the dudes won't even talk to me. I have no interest in gaming dudes, but they make things awkward for me. Some dudes won't even look me in the eyes and/or give me attitudes. Anyone got a fix for this dilemma? I am more of the pretty boy kind of good looking then the jacked kind of good looking, maybe that has something to do with it.

I think some guys get uncomfortable around pretty-boy type guys because they're afraid of some kind of latent same-sex attraction being activated. (Not sure what you can do about it, maybe find some way of communicating subtly but unambiguously that you're heterosexual upfront?)

[seeker04542]

(09-12-2012 08:25 PM)flyfreshandyoung Wrote:  

Second Fisto. That's probably one of the best summaries I've seen of this phenomenon.

I would also add that yeah sometimes these girls are stand offish because they want to take you down a peg, but sometimes these girls, especially 7s and 6s, are stand offish because they are life "wow why is this guy talking to me". Their player radar is on high alert because they know they aren't in you're league and automatically assuming the worst of you.

Disarm with charm either way.

I actually think the assumption that you're a player increases the whole way as you go down the scale, the difference is below a 4 or 5 the girls don't care because they're desperate for the attention.