[ZayanZaken]

I guess getting divorced in America is indeed painful all too often, but somehow I managed to divorce three times, one of them in America, and survived to live another day: none of my exes tried to take me to the cleaners. I am now married to my fourth wife, to whom I intend to stay married even while pursuing another LTR in another country. I intend to stay married to her because she is the mother of my children and I trust her. We lived together quite a few years without marriage and tied the knot officially only because her passport impeded our joint travel, which was a hassle for my job. Right now, she is my insurance against getting married to a gold digger if I get too delusional to use good judgement in future. Here are a few facts:

- With one exception, my first wife, I always dated other women when I wanted. She was the one who wanted the divorce after a year and by then I had not yet developed the desire and the confidence to have extramarital sex.

- With the same exception, no wife of mine ever decided to leave me.

- I never let a wife of mine get away with trying to withhold sex from me for frivolous reasons. Basically, they knew that if they did that they were history and just knowing that kept this nasty problem away.

- With one exception, my first wife again, all my exes are still friends and one is even a close friend of my current wife.

- I don't do dishes and I don't do windows. I help only when it is required to lift heavy stuff etc. Not because I refuse to do it but rather because I refuse to have a relationship with a woman who expects me to do such things.

- Last, but perhaps not least, I never married an American.

My point, really, is that the issue is not whether you get married or not, but rather what the unwritten marriage contract says. There are pleasures that you cannot achieve with a short fling and there are pleasures that you cannot really achieve with an LTR. Why deny yourself one or the other?

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

(07-07-2014 04:17 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

Hell, I guess the only acceptable marriage is to marry a rich girl then. Its actually not a terrible idea. With good game theres a chance you can charm a rich girl into marrying you; then you cheat and do exactly the same thing women have been doing to us.

I doubt its easy as that though, else we would have a lot more male gold diggers

Yep. To counteract this possibility, feminism is working hard on introducing nebulous terms like "economic abuse" to public discourse, sociology, courts and law. For example, if you have ever either:

A) spent your marriage's common money without asking
OR
B) forced your wife to ask permission before spending common money

Then you are an "economic abuser" and you need to make it up to her after marriage, despite her being richer. It's a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't scenario.

If you think I'm kidding, there was recently a study in Croatia (lavishly funded by $ 15 000 of taxpayers' money) which found that "1 in 3 women are victims of economic abuse". This shit is coming, and marriage will become an even worse bet than it is now.

[Hotwheels]

Most American wives are guilty of "economic abuse".

[Dalaran1991]

(07-08-2014 03:34 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  

(07-07-2014 04:17 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

Hell, I guess the only acceptable marriage is to marry a rich girl then. Its actually not a terrible idea. With good game theres a chance you can charm a rich girl into marrying you; then you cheat and do exactly the same thing women have been doing to us.

I doubt its easy as that though, else we would have a lot more male gold diggers

Yep. To counteract this possibility, feminism is working hard on introducing nebulous terms like "economic abuse" to public discourse, sociology, courts and law. For example, if you have ever either:

A) spent your marriage's common money without asking
OR
B) forced your wife to ask permission before spending common money

Then you are an "economic abuser" and you need to make it up to her after marriage, despite her being richer. It's a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't scenario.

If you think I'm kidding, there was recently a study in Croatia (lavishly funded by $ 15 000 of taxpayers' money) which found that "1 in 3 women are victims of economic abuse". This shit is coming, and marriage will become an even worse bet than it is now.

You gotta be kidding me.

Bitches are warring hard for this, and you US men stand by and do nothing? WHy dont we fight back?

[scorpion]

Sexless marriage is only made possible by the bizarre modern invention of "marital rape", which says that a husband is not entitled to have sex with his wife if she objects. This is, quite simply, complete nonsense. A husband cannot rape his wife, because the very union of man and wife signifies the creation of one flesh. A man cannot rape his wife because he cannot rape himself.

The idea that a wife can cruelly and arbitrarily deny her husband sex is literally the same as if a husband decided to cruelly and arbitrarily deny his wife money. Imagine a man who forced his wife to live in a tent in the backyard and eat only canned food while he slept in their nice house and cooked himself steak and lobster. Such a man would be universally condemned as abusive and his wife would have legal and moral grounds for divorce. A woman who denies her husband a reasonable amount of sex (i.e. at least once or twice a week) is willfully sabotaging the marriage and abusing her husband.

[tylerdurden1993]

(07-08-2014 11:42 AM)scorpion Wrote:  

Sexless marriage is only made possible by the bizarre modern invention of "marital rape", which says that a husband is not entitled to have sex with his wife if she objects. This is, quite simply, complete nonsense. A husband cannot rape his wife, because the very union of man and wife signifies the creation of one flesh. A man cannot rape his wife because he cannot rape himself.

The idea that a wife can cruelly and arbitrarily deny her husband sex is literally the same as if a husband decided to cruelly and arbitrarily deny his wife money. Imagine a man who forced his wife to live in a tent in the backyard and eat only canned food while he slept in their nice house and cooked himself steak and lobster. Such a man would be universally condemned as abusive and his wife would have legal and moral grounds for divorce. A woman who denies her husband a reasonable amount of sex (i.e. at least once or twice a week) is willfully sabotaging the marriage and abusing her husband.

What happens if it's the other way round and the husband refuses to have sex with his wife?

I'm not looking for an argument I just want your opinion on this scenario

[eradicator]

(07-08-2014 12:05 PM)tylerdurden1993 Wrote:  

(07-08-2014 11:42 AM)scorpion Wrote:  

Sexless marriage is only made possible by the bizarre modern invention of "marital rape", which says that a husband is not entitled to have sex with his wife if she objects. This is, quite simply, complete nonsense. A husband cannot rape his wife, because the very union of man and wife signifies the creation of one flesh. A man cannot rape his wife because he cannot rape himself.

The idea that a wife can cruelly and arbitrarily deny her husband sex is literally the same as if a husband decided to cruelly and arbitrarily deny his wife money. Imagine a man who forced his wife to live in a tent in the backyard and eat only canned food while he slept in their nice house and cooked himself steak and lobster. Such a man would be universally condemned as abusive and his wife would have legal and moral grounds for divorce. A woman who denies her husband a reasonable amount of sex (i.e. at least once or twice a week) is willfully sabotaging the marriage and abusing her husband.

What happens if it's the other way round and the husband refuses to have sex with his wife?

I'm not looking for an argument I just want your opinion on this scenario

I think it depends. If it is because she got fat and he is no longer attracted to her, she no longer deserves sex and he should either cheat on her or leave her.

If it is because of low sex drive and the man is not interested in sex period, he needs to change his diet, get viagra, work out.

[Dalaran1991]

(07-08-2014 01:07 PM)eradicator Wrote:  

(07-08-2014 12:05 PM)tylerdurden1993 Wrote:  

(07-08-2014 11:42 AM)scorpion Wrote:  

Sexless marriage is only made possible by the bizarre modern invention of "marital rape", which says that a husband is not entitled to have sex with his wife if she objects. This is, quite simply, complete nonsense. A husband cannot rape his wife, because the very union of man and wife signifies the creation of one flesh. A man cannot rape his wife because he cannot rape himself.

The idea that a wife can cruelly and arbitrarily deny her husband sex is literally the same as if a husband decided to cruelly and arbitrarily deny his wife money. Imagine a man who forced his wife to live in a tent in the backyard and eat only canned food while he slept in their nice house and cooked himself steak and lobster. Such a man would be universally condemned as abusive and his wife would have legal and moral grounds for divorce. A woman who denies her husband a reasonable amount of sex (i.e. at least once or twice a week) is willfully sabotaging the marriage and abusing her husband.

What happens if it's the other way round and the husband refuses to have sex with his wife?

I'm not looking for an argument I just want your opinion on this scenario

I think it depends. If it is because she got fat and he is no longer attracted to her, she no longer deserves sex and he should either cheat on her or leave her.

If it is because of low sex drive and the man is not interested in sex period, he needs to change his diet, get viagra, work out.

Aye, thats how it logically should be, but in front of the judge that will just give him an awesome excuse to give the "abused" wife everything including the kitchen sink.

Seriously US divorce law is fucked up. And socially there's also no retribution against the divorced abusive wife. She is always the victim.

[scorpion]

(07-08-2014 12:05 PM)tylerdurden1993 Wrote:  

(07-08-2014 11:42 AM)scorpion Wrote:  

Sexless marriage is only made possible by the bizarre modern invention of "marital rape", which says that a husband is not entitled to have sex with his wife if she objects. This is, quite simply, complete nonsense. A husband cannot rape his wife, because the very union of man and wife signifies the creation of one flesh. A man cannot rape his wife because he cannot rape himself.

The idea that a wife can cruelly and arbitrarily deny her husband sex is literally the same as if a husband decided to cruelly and arbitrarily deny his wife money. Imagine a man who forced his wife to live in a tent in the backyard and eat only canned food while he slept in their nice house and cooked himself steak and lobster. Such a man would be universally condemned as abusive and his wife would have legal and moral grounds for divorce. A woman who denies her husband a reasonable amount of sex (i.e. at least once or twice a week) is willfully sabotaging the marriage and abusing her husband.

What happens if it's the other way round and the husband refuses to have sex with his wife?

I'm not looking for an argument I just want your opinion on this scenario

Pretty much what eradicator said. The key is that sexual access between man and wife must be reasonable. This means that a husband cannot force his wife to give him blowjobs twice a day against her will, nor could a wife demand to be fucked three times a day, every day. Each partner must provide a reasonable level of sexual access to the other. If there is no good reason to deny a reasonable amount of sex, then it shouldn't be denied. Barring some type of physical impairment or sickness (which does not include female depression or "not being in the mood") there is no reason husband and wife should be having sex less than once per week assuming at least one of them is willing. A wife who becomes extremely unattractive due to self-neglect is no different than a man who loses his job and becomes poor because he'd rather get drunk all day.

[Icarus]

I sometimes wonder if it would be better to utterly decouple sex and "love" from marriage.

If that were to be the case, then one would marry a decent, smart, and physically attractive woman to produce children of good biological and moral quality. Marriage would essentially be considered a startup whose purpose is to produce human capital, and nothing else. One could even completely decouple sex from procreation via the use of genetic banks that would store sperm and eggs for IVF.

Marriage would become nothing more than a business transaction, like in the old days. There would be absolutely no expectations of one's spouse providing affection or sex:

• Wifey wants to talk? She can go meet her gay friend and talk all she wants.
  

• Wifey wants sex? She can go to bars and have one night stands. Even better, she can get a bunch of fuckbuddies. There's no reason for me to care, since the marriage is a mere business transaction, and my business partner's sex life is not my concern.
  

• Wifey wants love? She has her children for that. If she wants "romantic love" and intimacy, she can get a lover. Just as long as she does not neglect her children, her love life is not my problem.
  

Needless to say, one would live with one's wife and children, but husband and wife would not sleep in the same bedroom. Hubbie would have his own bedroom. After all, one does not sleep with one's business partners.

If there were less expectations, marriages would be less problematic.

[LoftBoy]

(07-08-2014 03:09 PM)Icarus Wrote:  

I sometimes wonder if it would be better to utterly decouple sex and "love" from marriage.

If that were to be the case, then one would marry a decent, smart, and physically attractive woman to produce children of good biological and moral quality. Marriage would essentially be considered a startup whose purpose is to produce human capital, and nothing else. One could even completely decouple sex from procreation via the use of genetic banks that would store sperm and eggs for IVF.

Marriage would become nothing more than a business transaction, like in the old days. There would be absolutely no expectations of one's spouse providing affection or sex:

• Wifey wants to talk? She can go meet her gay friend and talk all she wants.
  

• Wifey wants sex? She can go to bars and have one night stands. Even better, she can get a bunch of fuckbuddies. There's no reason for me to care, since the marriage is a mere business transaction, and my business partner's sex life is not my concern.
  

• Wifey wants love? She has her children for that. If she wants "romantic love" and intimacy, she can get a lover. Just as long as she does not neglect her children, her love life is not my problem.
  

Needless to say, one would live with one's wife and children, but husband and wife would not sleep in the same bedroom. Hubbie would have his own bedroom. After all, one does not sleep with one's business partners.

If there were less expectations, marriages would be less problematic.

What the fuck is the point then? Nobody would even bother getting married, since that sounds absolutely fucking miserable. Living with a bitch who's fucking hella other dudes, polluting the fuck out of the place where your children are coming from. I'll pass. It's all the shittiness of marriage with none of the benefit.

[Icarus]

(07-08-2014 05:07 PM)LoftBoy Wrote:  

What the fuck is the point then? Nobody would even bother getting married, since that sounds absolutely fucking miserable.

The whole point would be to raise successful children. Children need a mother, and stability. And the wife would hopefully have good manners and not embarrass her husband at parties and weddings. In other words, the wife would be teacher, nanny, manager, and "diplomat" at social events. But not a romantic partner. And not a sexual partner.

Of course, the children may be disturbed by the utter lack of affection between their parents. On the other hand, one would never need to worry about wifey hitting the wall, since one would have young mistresses.

[ZayanZaken]

(07-08-2014 05:56 PM)Icarus Wrote:  

(07-08-2014 05:07 PM)LoftBoy Wrote:  

What the fuck is the point then? Nobody would even bother getting married, since that sounds absolutely fucking miserable.

The whole point would be to raise successful children. Children need a mother, and stability. And the wife would hopefully have good manners and not embarrass her husband at parties and weddings. In other words, the wife would be teacher, nanny, manager, and "diplomat" at social events. But not a romantic partner. And not a sexual partner.

Of course, the children may be disturbed by the utter lack of affection between their parents. On the other hand, one would never need to worry about wifey hitting the wall, since one would have young mistresses.

Children need a mother, A FATHER, and stability. You can't achieve that if you allow your wife to fuck other men. Heck, you can't even achieve that if she WANTS to fuck other men! So you do have an affectionate relationship with her, you sleep in the same bed with her and you do have sex with her, except it is exclusive on her part and not exclusive on your part. The mother of your children has to be someone not only attractive but intelligent. Furthermore, she must be someone who understands at the emotional level that men and women are not alike. She should therefore be able to control her jealousy and not demand an artificial equality of the type feminists seek.

[BadWolf]

Some of you guys are seriously disturbed... its no wonder y'all end up divorced.

[Samseau]

(07-08-2014 10:12 PM)BadWolf Wrote:  

Some of you guys are seriously disturbed... its no wonder y'all end up divorced.

Like that guy in the sexless marriage who posted on thought catalog... we should all be normal like him.

[Akula]

(07-08-2014 10:12 PM)BadWolf Wrote:  

Some of you guys are seriously disturbed... its no wonder y'all end up divorced.

we'll all end up divorced bc of the combined evils of hypergamy, divorce laws and female privilege in the US, not bc we're seriously disturbed!

seriously, glad you are happy with your marriage BadWolf, but it's tough sledding in the US and Anglosphere in general and you have to be uber careful and run really tight marriage game to make it work. I've never been married but seen countless horror stories with friends and family more than enough to make me shudder and also never want to get married in the US of A or bring one back. But I do want a feminine, foreign girl to eventually bear my offspring.

(07-10-2014 05:11 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

(07-08-2014 10:12 PM)BadWolf Wrote:  

Some of you guys are seriously disturbed... its no wonder y'all end up divorced.

Like that guy in the sexless marriage who posted on thought catalog... we should all be normal like him.

Unfortunately, that's the 'new normal' in 'murica re marriage.((

[BadWolf]

Can you explain what the guy on thought catalog says, I don't have access to youtube (Great Wall). Nobody is forced to marry in America and for that matter no one should but to discount marriage altogether is crazy.

The world is much bigger than America and I know Americans tend to think that its the ONLY place on Earth or the most important place but its not and there are plenty of decent women outside those borders. Some of the guys on this forum act as if they'll never be able to escape America when they could simply take a bus down to the border and walk across into Mexico.

You can own a nice house in Mexico for CHEAP (50k for a large 3 bdrm), have your wife down there and jump back and forth over the border every 6 months. There are 100's of cities in Mexico to choose from and they are brimming with nice women and hey, if you are ever unsatisfied in your marriage, just walk home to the USA.

[Cattle Rustler]

(07-08-2014 10:12 PM)BadWolf Wrote:  

Some of you guys are seriously disturbed... its no wonder y'all end up divorced.

Yup, some guys just think every women is out there to get them....every single women is going to rob them of their 100K savings and give them a false rape claim.

Not everything is dark, guys like you give me hope.

[MaxRitter]

hey cmon guys.... now Im not saying you all have to get married but what about just living with a woman, being commited and having kids? Procreating is the most alpha thing to do. Do you really wish to leave all of your posession to the kids of your divorced sister after your death? do you want your taxes to be spent on smb else`s kids? why do you refuse to procreate and have sons who will share your wisdom and follow into your footsteps while some motherfuckers are having multiple kids on welfare and just live, eat, sleep and procreate? Having children is the epitomy of being an alpha. I dont know if Ill ever get married but Ill sure as hell have kids and will most likely live with the same woman so that my kids will grow up in a steady home. as for marriage Ill only do it if there is no other way to keep my girlfreind in the country. I never said Ill be 100% faithfull to her or become her housemaid and attend to her needs. Already now I pretty much tell her what to do and she follows my lead. If she starts acting out Ill kick her out and she knows it. but refusing to have children and family just because of some stupid feminazis? hell no!

[Dalaran1991]

Some of you over-estimate the values of having children. Yes, they can be a delight if you raise them right and if you are lucky. You have a high chance of them turning into bitches/assholes and waste 18 years of your $.

If I have a good child, I ll give him/her the world. But US laws have fucked up not just marriage but also child rearing laws. Cant spank them. Cant tell them to shut up. CPS would be up on your ass if you dont give your fat kid 7 pizzas in a day, and you have to hit him bc he wouldnt stop shouting and calling you names.

Oh, icing on the cake? They can sue you: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/03/...e-tuition/

Girl act like a bitch, dont obey house rules, and she sues her parents for kicking her out. If my kids live under my roof and dont follow my rule and give me the attitude, I ll give him a proper whipping and its nobody's damn business. But sue me? Seriously?

US is the worst place to get married and raise a child.

[Cobra]

Man.. there are a whole bunch of marriage discussions happening in different threads.

If any chance Roosh or Tuth can combine it would be awesome.

So I posted this in another thread that is also relevant here:

http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-38060-...#pid777263

[memcpy]

If I had kids, it would be my luck that I would have 2-3 girls instead of all boys. That would drive me nuts. Then when those girls grow up I know all to well their future if they should decide to ride the carousel.

[game_ethic]

(07-11-2014 09:25 AM)Cobra Wrote:  

For example, an unmarried guy talking about how fucked up marriage is.

What if that unmarried guy was once married?

[Cobra]

^^ Clarification: I meant never married. My bad. My intention was to indicate people with experience in marriage versus not.

Also, paging Lothario.

[MaxRitter]

(07-11-2014 08:59 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

Some of you over-estimate the values of having children. Yes, they can be a delight if you raise them right and if you are lucky. You have a high chance of them turning into bitches/assholes and waste 18 years of your $.

If I have a good child, I ll give him/her the world. But US laws have fucked up not just marriage but also child rearing laws. Cant spank them. Cant tell them to shut up. CPS would be up on your ass if you dont give your fat kid 7 pizzas in a day, and you have to hit him bc he wouldnt stop shouting and calling you names.

Oh, icing on the cake? They can sue you: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/03/...e-tuition/

Girl act like a bitch, dont obey house rules, and she sues her parents for kicking her out. If my kids live under my roof and dont follow my rule and give me the attitude, I ll give him a proper whipping and its nobody's damn business. But sue me? Seriously?

US is the worst place to get married and raise a child.

well who said you have to stay in the US? Germany is where I live and it aint that bad. plus there are other countries in eatsern Europe - croatia, Poland, slovakia, czeck republick - that are far more traditional and men dominate there. I especially noticed how in croatia they bring up boys in a very traditional alpha male way. you could always move.

besides, Im not a big fan of corporal punishment. if the kids are raised by a decent traditional mom she will make sure they behave and respect their father. as for disagreements, those will always happen but one can usually reason with his own child.

I just feel lame when I see smart educated european and american men planting no seeds and dying out while some broke ass motherfuckers are spreading their ugly genes worldwide. bad marriage laws are no excuse to not having kids