[Skrolls]

Posted this on another thread, but thought it was worthy of its own discussion.
 
Guys who are successful with women posses a combination of two general attributes: “perceived value” and “game tactics”.
 
Examples of value to women:
- Fame
- Money
- Height
- Looks
- Relative social value
 
Examples of tactics used on women:
- Social competence
- Charm/wit
- Flirtation
- Push-pull
- Psychological mind games/routines (ie. Mystery Method/NLP)
 
Guys who possess lots of perceived value don't require as much proficiency in game tactics to score with women. Guys who lack perceived value need far more proficiency in game tactics to yield the same results.
 
The PUA movement and the methods discussed in Bang and Day Bang are designed to help guys who otherwise lack perceived value to score women out of their league using game tactics.
 
But to what extent can “game tactics” truly compensate for a lack of “perceived value”? Particularly when two of the most critical sources of value – height and race – are immutable?

[soup]

"out of your league" talk smells like feminist/anti-game propaganda to me..



Compensate? What are you talking about?

It is not about compensating for shit.

Game just says that you don't have to have model good looks, be tall, white, rich to get laid or bang hot chicks. Beyond that, it promises nothing.

Game is all about enhancing perceived value, and is not limited to the tactics you listed. There are other things you can do to make yourself more attractive to women.

[Spike]

[attachment=6068]

[Samseau]

(05-03-2012 12:44 PM)Skrolls Wrote:  

But to what extent can “game tactics” truly compensate for a lack of “perceived value”? Particularly when two of the most critical sources of value – height and race – are immutable?

No one knows the answer to this question. Why bother asking it?


Some men have used "tactics" to seduce incredibly beautiful women, while others only modestly boost their results. If we knew the answer to this question definitively, men could save a lot of time.


Personally speaking, learning game made me go from virgin to stud, so the results have been very dramatic.

Moreover, your model:

Quote:

Examples of value to women:
- Fame
- Money
- Height
- Looks
- Relative social value

Is incomplete. I know guys with all of the aforementioned qualities, yet have zero game, who suck with women. They either have trouble landing a girl, or if they do, she's a gold-digging whore who takes him to the cleaners every divorce.


Your conclusion at the end,

Quote:

Particularly when two of the most critical sources of value – height and race – are immutable?

Is completely contestable. Race and height are the most critical sources of value? I banged over 10 good looking girls last year, and I'm 5'8''.

You don't know what you're talking about. Keep practicing your game, buddy.

[redacted]

Value is additive. Game is multiplicative. Unless your value is through the roof (athlete or celeb level) then it won't matter withhout game. Multiplying by zero is still zero.

The answer to your question shoud now be apparent. Game can compensate for value but it rarely works the other way around.

[jerome]

(05-03-2012 12:44 PM)Skrolls Wrote:  

Particularly when two of the most critical sources of value – height and race – are immutable?

Why don't you go out there a find out.

Go Seek the truth.

the truth will free you.

Put it to the test. Don't you want to know.

I know the real answer.

Is it Myth or fiction.

You are living in a fantasy world, made by social construct, the media and pure marketing.

You sound like someone who never approach a girl.

Only Game denalist talk this way.

Also this forum promotes game tactics only.

Players come here to exchange game tactics. Do you comprehend.

[Skrolls]

(05-03-2012 07:37 PM)redacted Wrote:  

Value is additive. Game is multiplicative. Unless your value is through the roof (athlete or celeb level) then it won't matter withhout game. Multiplying by zero is still zero.

The answer to your question shoud now be apparent. Game can compensate for value but it rarely works the other way around.

Here's one of the best illustrations of the dichotomy of perceived value vs. game tactics on this forum:

(10-30-2011 01:21 AM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

(10-29-2011 11:46 PM)Batata Wrote:  

You are giving off a beta vibe, as in you're not being assertive and confident enough.

Or you're being too assertive/confident without the right substance to back it up.

An example to illustrate:

I dove into the game full force when I got to college. I dealt with some approach anxiety early, but I realized that once I got a little alcohol in me I became practically fearless and very sexually aggressive. I figured this was a good thing (it is college, right?), so I ran with it.

One of my common practices involved venturing to frat dance parties across campus and approaching cute girls (some I casually knew, some I didn't) on the floor to dance/grind with them.
Using some game advice I'd read around the net, I assumed it would be crucial to escalate. I began to do the "turn around" frequently (grinding with the girl from behind, grab her hand and twirl her around so she is now facing you as you continue grinding). From here, I could gauge the potential for making a move/makeout.

The problem is that, on my campus anyway, girls really don't like to do this unless you've built a ton of rapport/comfort or are very high status (rich, tall, white, alpha-male, lax-bro looking type in top fraternity). I had none of these things, so girls viewed my twirling them around as an issue. They were never comfortable, and would frequently disengage or turn back around for a minute or two before leaving.
Later on, it would get back to me (usually via my friends, who may have also been talking to the same girls casually) that they thought I was "creepy".

What'd I do wrong? I wasn't timid. One the contrary, I was quite aggressive in approaching the girls I liked and trying to escalate. I was pretty much running what Roosh called Brazilian "Cave-Man" game.
I wasn't lacking in confidence either. I fully expected to succeed.

The reason I failed stemmed from the fact that in the particular environment I was in (small, Ivy League campus), girls usually required a lot more rapport and tighter, more extensive use of game before any moves were made (unless you had certain social/economic prerequisites, which I did not). Raw, aggressive approaches don't fly, even if they are actually attracted to you. These girls are far too restrained, analytical and cautious for any of that to work-even if they feel you on a physical level, they simply will not let themselves express that openly, especially in front of many others. When you try to pull it off anyway, they'll start to feel uncomfortable. When a girl is uncomfortable or doesn't understand the behavior she's seeing from a guy, the "creepy" label inevitably follows.

So, the lesson here is that your environment is important. At a state school or back in high school where the rules/physical preferences girls adhere to are different, I might have gotten away with the cave-man game I ran. In college, I was just a creep, and a little less raw aggression and quieter confidence would have probably helped me avoid that label. Nuance is key-you're only a creep if you violate the rules/expectations girls have of the environment you're in. My environment prohibited super-aggressive dudes, so I was a creep.

Understand the rules girls have in your environment, and tailor your game to them. Chances are, all you're doing wrong is violating these expectations.

http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-7743-p...#pid111963

In this environment, Athlone's "game tactics" were not enough to compensate for his lack of "perceived value".

[Veloce]

I see a lot of these threads popping up recently, this shit is just way too analytical, and what I picture is a bunch of dudes sitting in front of a computer breaking down the most minute details of game like it's their college major instead of just going out in the field and doing it.

Good game is the combination and balance of a lot of different things, and you don't improve it by breaking it down into this academic structure and chatting about it on an online forum.

Not good looking enough? Hit the gym and buy some new clothes.
Not social/funny enough? Go approach 100 girls and hit a few comedy shows
Not enough social value? Go do something with your life and travel

I'm all for sharing tips and strategies, I think that's what the forum is here for, but some of these threads are just too much.

[redacted]

Speak for yourself! I'm an overthinker and and an analyst (to a fault) but you bet yer arse I'm out there in the trenches day in and day out.

Theory is definitely important. Think of it like Music. While I am playing, I can call upon my analytics and theory to help guide me in the moment. As long as I actually do go on stage and play, there's no issue.

Analysis like this can really help some people develop; a certain personality type benefits from this, others do not.

(05-04-2012 02:11 AM)thedude3737 Wrote:  

I see a lot of these threads popping up recently, this shit is just way too analytical, and what I picture is a bunch of dudes sitting in front of a computer breaking down the most minute details of game like it's their college major instead of just going out in the field and doing it.

Good game is the combination and balance of a lot of different things, and you don't improve it by breaking it down into this academic structure and chatting about it on an online forum.

Not good looking enough? Hit the gym and buy some new clothes.
Not social/funny enough? Go approach 100 girls and hit a few comedy shows
Not enough social value? Go do something with your life and travel

I'm all for sharing tips and strategies, I think that's what the forum is here for, but some of these threads are just too much.

[broken]

(05-04-2012 02:11 AM)thedude3737 Wrote:  

I see a lot of these threads popping up recently, this shit is just way too analytical...

Not good looking enough? Hit the gym and buy some new clothes.
Not social/funny enough? Go approach 100 girls and hit a few comedy shows
Not enough social value? Go do something with your life and travel

I'm all for sharing tips and strategies, I think that's what the forum is here for, but some of these threads are just too much.

I get the sense that these dumb questions spring from not reading Bang and not actually going out into the field. Leeches and trolls

[Veloce]

(05-04-2012 06:53 AM)redacted Wrote:  

Speak for yourself! I'm an overthinker and and an analyst (to a fault) but you bet yer arse I'm out there in the trenches day in and day out.

Theory is definitely important. Think of it like Music. While I am playing, I can call upon my analytics and theory to help guide me in the moment. As long as I actually do go on stage and play, there's no issue.

Analysis like this can really help some people develop; a certain personality type benefits from this, others do not.

(05-04-2012 02:11 AM)thedude3737 Wrote:  

I see a lot of these threads popping up recently, this shit is just way too analytical, and what I picture is a bunch of dudes sitting in front of a computer breaking down the most minute details of game like it's their college major instead of just going out in the field and doing it.

Good game is the combination and balance of a lot of different things, and you don't improve it by breaking it down into this academic structure and chatting about it on an online forum.

Not good looking enough? Hit the gym and buy some new clothes.
Not social/funny enough? Go approach 100 girls and hit a few comedy shows
Not enough social value? Go do something with your life and travel

I'm all for sharing tips and strategies, I think that's what the forum is here for, but some of these threads are just too much.

Fair enough. If it works for you, fine.

But christ, listen to this sentence you wrote:

But to what extent can “game tactics” truly compensate for a lack of “perceived value”? Particularly when two of the most critical sources of value – height and race – are immutable?

This just reads like a rhetorical question. You seriously expect a scientific and analytical response to this question? How could anyone even know how far game can go? If you need some sort of reassurance that game works just go around the internet and read all sorts of great romance stories for guys about they were a fat broke piece of shit that one day discovered game and now they're pulling playboy models. Those stories are out there aplenty, so if that's what you need to ready or study or whatever, by all means go for it. What makes RVF great is it's completely devoid of that BS. This is a place for real world experience and sharing tips and advice. Not a place for postulating "Well gee, I wonder in what proportion game and perceived value I can get away with and still get The Girl."

How about you go work on your game AND your value instead of maintaining the mindset that one somehow compensates for the other.

[oldnemesis]

(05-03-2012 12:44 PM)Skrolls Wrote:  

Posted this on another thread, but thought it was worthy of its own discussion.
 Guys who are successful with women posses a combination of two general attributes: “perceived value” and “game tactics”.

Not really. "Game tactics" is the set of rules which raise your perceived value for a specific type of girls if you follow them.
 

Quote:

Guys who possess lots of perceived value don't require as much proficiency in game tactics to score with women. Guys who lack perceived value need far more proficiency in game tactics to yield the same results.

Since perceived value is the direct result of game tactics, it makes little sense (same as your last question).

I'd say "Guys who possess lots of real value don't need as much proficiency in game tactics to score with women."

Of course, the whole concept of "value" is different for the different group of girls and environment. Social status, for example, is extremely important for a party girl type, but not important for a nerdy girl type.

And money by itself does not create any value. It is the way you're using money which creates the value.

[oldnemesis]

(05-04-2012 02:11 AM)thedude3737 Wrote:  

I see a lot of these threads popping up recently, this shit is just way too analytical, and what I picture is a bunch of dudes sitting in front of a computer breaking down the most minute details of game like it's their college major instead of just going out in the field and doing it.

Different people have different goals. At this moment personally I'm much more interested in breaking things down than in going out in the field (and repeating the things I've done last two years and getting the same results). If this is not your goal, don't read those threads.

In fact I don't really understand what are you doing on a forum instead of being out

Quote:

Good game is the combination and balance of a lot of different things, and you don't improve it by breaking it down into this academic structure and chatting about it on an online forum.

Different people learn differently. For example, talking to Roosh for a few hours back in Ukraine was more helpful to me regarding the N.A. game than five previous years of going out.

Quote:

Not good looking enough? Hit the gym and buy some new clothes.
Not social/funny enough? Go approach 100 girls and hit a few comedy shows
Not enough social value? Go do something with your life and travel

This is a classic example of a completely useless advice. It is like telling to a fat dude he needs to lose weight. He'd be like, wow, that's a really valuable advice!

Now what would you advise to someone who does not want to improve and maintain his improved looks?

What would you advise to someone who does not want to become social/funny (that one is me)?

Why do you think someone even needs social value to game women, and how travel is relevant to social value?

[oldnemesis]

(05-03-2012 04:42 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

Personally speaking, learning game made me go from virgin to stud, so the results have been very dramatic.

This seems to be very typical case. So typical that we can make a theory about it:
- if you're a virgin or very inexperienced, learning game would bring you great results.
- if you're doing somehow fine and want to improve, expect only modest results, if any.

[Moma]

(05-04-2012 08:10 PM)oldnemesis Wrote:  

(05-04-2012 02:11 AM)thedude3737 Wrote:  

I see a lot of these threads popping up recently, this shit is just way too analytical, and what I picture is a bunch of dudes sitting in front of a computer breaking down the most minute details of game like it's their college major instead of just going out in the field and doing it.

Different people have different goals. At this moment personally I'm much more interested in breaking things down than in going out in the field (and repeating the things I've done last two years and getting the same results). If this is not your goal, don't read those threads.

In fact I don't really understand what are you doing on a forum instead of being out

Quote:

Good game is the combination and balance of a lot of different things, and you don't improve it by breaking it down into this academic structure and chatting about it on an online forum.

Different people learn differently. For example, talking to Roosh for a few hours back in Ukraine was more helpful to me regarding the N.A. game than five previous years of going out.

Quote:

Not good looking enough? Hit the gym and buy some new clothes.
Not social/funny enough? Go approach 100 girls and hit a few comedy shows
Not enough social value? Go do something with your life and travel

This is a classic example of a completely useless advice. It is like telling to a fat dude he needs to lose weight. He'd be like, wow, that's a really valuable advice!

Now what would you advise to someone who does not want to improve and maintain his improved looks?

What would you advise to someone who does not want to become social/funny (that one is me)?

If one cannot adapt to their environment whether existing or new, then that individual will not be able to eat choice game. If you want to hunt wild game and it requires you to dress up as a deer to get closer to the rabbits and you refuse, you will only be able to feast on old and wounded wildebeest.

I hate grinding on lizards and I hate listening to their shyt. But if I want to eat, I have to do it or find lizards that don't do that. And if I live in a society where lizards tend to do things in a certain way, in order to feast on the majority I have to do what is seen as socially acceptable to the lizards.

So that advice makes sense, in a general way.

(05-04-2012 08:10 PM)oldnemesis Wrote:  

Why do you think someone even needs social value to game women, and how travel is relevant to social value?

Of course social value is needed to game lizards. They are social creatures and they have to validate you in order to bang you. Do lizards generally bang creeps? Creeps are deemed as socially inferior individuals.

Travel enhances social value specifically in countries or cities where the people tend to be wowed by foreigners. A traveller is seen as a celebrity almost, a person who has encountered many different worlds.
This enables the person to talk for ages to the lizard about stuff that the lizard has not encountered and would like to encounter.

[oldnemesis]

(05-04-2012 10:35 PM)Moma Wrote:  

If one cannot adapt to their environment whether existing or new, then that individual will not be able to eat choice game. If you want to hunt wild game and it requires you to dress up as a deer to get closer to the rabbits and you refuse, you will only be able to feast on old and wounded wildebeest.

Yes, this just means you wouldn't be able to hunt the deers.
But then some people don't even need them.
And some people would like them, but the effort would be too much to them.

This is why it is important to estimate the effort. It is more kind of "would you like to be a celebrity rock star?" Kinda moronic question, I'm sure a lot of people would like to. But if you ask it properly, "are you gonna put the effort to become a celebrity rock star?" you'll get much less okeys, and the result would be more real.

Quote:

I hate grinding on lizards and I hate listening to their shyt. But if I want to eat, I have to do it or find lizards that don't do that.

If this is something you hate doing, then you might want to rethink how valuable it is for you as it would surely change when you age. Personally during the last two years (and I'm approaching the golden 40) I stopped completely doing the things I don't like, so I'm either getting laid on my terms or not at all. Initially it lowered the numbers and quality significantly, but at this moment it is pretty much back since I adapted to this strategy. Now I wish I've started it ten years ago. My guess is that the girls can feel it when you're doing something not because you like doing so, but because you're trying to pursue some specific agenda. As a result, you're coming out as trying too hard and not authentic.

So instead of perfecting something you hate to do - which you might consider wasted time in ten years - why not to spend this effort on trying to find something which you'd like to do and which would work for you even better?

Quote:

Of course social value is needed to game lizards. They are social creatures and they have to validate you in order to bang you. Do lizards generally bang creeps?

Nope. Social value is typically required to bang young sorotity chicks in bars/clubs. But it is not needed to bang nerdy chicks, the older crowd, or even the same sorotity chicks when they're isolated (like alone on vacation).

Also why I said "typically" is because recently I found out that this is not required at all in case you're out, you're alone and you're having fun alone (reading a book, dancing and playing pool alone). Such behavior gives a brain shortcut to a typical party girl, and they approach you to find out what's up with you.

Quote:

Travel enhances social value specifically in countries or cities where the people tend to be wowed by foreigners. A traveller is seen as a celebrity almost, a person who has encountered many different worlds.

By whom? This may be the case in Philippines where a lot of people didn't even visit another island, but this is definitely not the case in Europe.

Quote:

This enables the person to talk for ages to the lizard about stuff that the lizard has not encountered and would like to encounter.

You don't need to travel for that, you can just make the things up. You can speak complete bullshit to this type girls and as long as it is funny they won't care.

[Samseau]

(05-04-2012 08:19 PM)oldnemesis Wrote:  

(05-03-2012 04:42 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

Personally speaking, learning game made me go from virgin to stud, so the results have been very dramatic.

This seems to be very typical case. So typical that we can make a theory about it:
- if you're a virgin or very inexperienced, learning game would bring you great results.
- if you're doing somehow fine and want to improve, expect only modest results, if any.

If it works for guys who aren't getting anything, then logically it should work even better for guys who are getting something.

[the_conductor]

(05-07-2012 08:15 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

(05-04-2012 08:19 PM)oldnemesis Wrote:  

(05-03-2012 04:42 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

Personally speaking, learning game made me go from virgin to stud, so the results have been very dramatic.

This seems to be very typical case. So typical that we can make a theory about it:
- if you're a virgin or very inexperienced, learning game would bring you great results.
- if you're doing somehow fine and want to improve, expect only modest results, if any.

If it works for guys who aren't getting anything, then logically it should work even better for guys who are getting something.

Well, if you're average looking being cocky can boost your results, but if you're very good looking being cocky can actually have the effect of scaring the girl off. In this situation it is better for the good looking guy to tone down his assholery.

[oldnemesis]

(05-07-2012 08:15 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

If it works for guys who aren't getting anything, then logically it should work even better for guys who are getting something.

Yes, this is the common sense logic that it should. But apparently it does not. At this moment everyone I've talked to here or met in the real life, who attributed their scores to learning game, had nothing before learning it. I'd speculate this is related to several things, and the most important is that getting laid for the people who had prior success without putting any significant effort is rarely an achievement worth any significant investment. This means not only you'd put in less effort to achieve your goal, but you'll also be much more inclined to drop it as soon as something goes wrong.

Here's a real life example: you brought a girl home, you have her in your bed, but she doesn't want to fuck. A classic late minute resistance case. What would a dedicated player do? Use the tricks from the book together with persistence, and the chance is she'll eventually fuck. What would I do? I'd leave if it's her place or kick her out if it is mine.

Is there anyone who was pretty successful before learning game, then learned game and it boosted his success significantly? I'd like to hear your story.

[Moma]

oldnem - I was pretty successful before game. I relied on basic primal tactics, bulldozing the lizard based on fake street swag akin to some sort of intelligent hoodlum. I relied on my look and my physique and complained a lot about flakes and other bullshyt.

When I moved to North America, my success rate went down. The signals were a lot more subtle and the flaking was a lot higher. I took a bit of a hit psychologically and I refused to acknowledge game - I thought it was for weak geeks who had to put every natural act into a formula. Look for signals, codes, negs all that bullshyt, I wasn't on for that.

But my style wasn't working..not the way I wanted. Yea, I was getting lizards here and there but no where to the level I wanted. I am hard headed but I'm also a realist. I thought, ok, let's try this game shyt.

So I tried it. Now my mindset has changed and my approaches have a pattern to them.

I have substantially better success and I am actually getting better results. The biggest thing I have learnt from game is watching body language, looking at actions and how lizards dress.

The other day, I penetrated a reptile (overcoming LTR). If you were to read a script of her dialogue, it was no, no, no all the way. But I ran game testers and soon, we were grappling naked on the bed and I was feeling those lovely walls.

Without game, I would have been typing here today with what if, memories and a nagging erection.

So, yes, game exists and I constantly have to remind myself of its need and application. With slight modifications for culture and country, the core essence remains as it is the male understanding of the female drive and their nature.

Hope that answers your question, comrade.

[oldnemesis]

Interesting feedback Moma. Unfortunately it is not applicable for a typical situation I described above since it involved the move into a different culture. When you do so, it is obvious that your old methods might not work, and you need to find new ones which work. Indeed my idea only makes sense when the environment is constant.

Still, could you elaborate what exactly you changed? It is not obvious; from your description it looks like you're just putting more effort now to get to the level you were before.

[Moma]

(05-08-2012 07:05 PM)oldnemesis Wrote:  

Interesting feedback Moma. Unfortunately it is not applicable for a typical situation I described above since it involved the move into a different culture. When you do so, it is obvious that your old methods might not work, and you need to find new ones which work. Indeed my idea only makes sense when the environment is constant.

Still, could you elaborate what exactly you changed? It is not obvious; from your description it looks like you're just putting more effort now to get to the level you were before.

So, what I have changed in a nutshell is:

1) Warm ups - If I am feeling introverted at that particular time (usually if the music is crap) I will warm up on a female. It can be any female - fat, old, hairy..just someone.

In Europe, I didn't warm up. Sometimes, I remained cold all night.

It's like working out. You don't go and bench 300lbs without warming up with the bar and two 45's. It's not encouraged.

After I am warmed up, I turn on my scanners. I have now engaged:

2) My level of awareness - IOU's, body language. I have displaced energy wasted in the past and focused on things that count. Before, in Europe, I used to open on the sexiest reptile, dancing and oscillating in the club, her body twerking, her buttocks rolling wildly.
Now, I know, she is usually an attention whore. I pay those sorts minimal mind. I may open her briefly but if she is into the bullshyt, I walk away immediately.
Instead, I focus on the less dressy lizard, the one who cannot keep her eyes focused on her group but keeps glancing around restlessly. If I see her eyes sweep me but for a tick tock, I pounce. Even if she doesn't look at me but her eyes are all over the place, I pounce. I observe the Roosh 3 second rule and move in.
Whether it is successful or not is irrelevant, it's doing something that counts.

3) Things I say to them - Everything I say is to try and build value (everything is fake here so being myself doesn't amount to shyt when trying to fcuk). I talk about my travels since many North Americans especially Canadians usually have only gone to the States or to Cuba, Mexico or DR. When they have done this, they have stayed on the resort like mice so it hardly counts. I tell them I lived in Europe, I mention some countries I visited, now my DHV has been boosted. I tell them countries I have in my pipeline. Now I am established as a internationally mobile person.

I watch her interaction with me. Black lizards can tend to be argumentative with me. Often, the arguments are a shyt test and a sign of horniness. Not long ago, one told me very coldly not to touch her ass when I asked and moved in for a dance. Yet we fcuked a week later.
I watch what she does with her hair (this tip was conveyed to me by a family member.) No, not whether it is cornrowed or relaxed, lol.
Does she play with it slightly? This is a sign of flirting and a green light for me.

In Europe, I was oblivious of all those signals. Does she have ass in tight jeans or leggings? Yes? Then that was my green light.
I would talk to her about regular shyt in Europe and often got sidelined by basic roadblocks (I have a man).

However off of pure volume, I was a huge day gamer in Europe (I walked, cycled and took the public transport everywhere). Besides, in Europe, people didn't get so wowed about travel so it meant jack shyt harping on about all that. My friend went to Bulgaria and back for 40 pounds just because he had nothing else to do. I got a return to Paris for 20 pounds. It was less about this resume like presentation over there (in my experience).

4) Kino - I touch now and nudge. In Europe, I didn't do this (unless we were both naked and I was trying to find the hole). I am not a big toucher (the European country I am from respects proximity from one another). But now I nudge the lizards after I say a gentle neg and observe how she reacts. I request hugs for basic things. I try and kiss on the two cheeks. If she doesn't shirk away like my fingers exude corrosive acid, I move a little more for some contact.
If she doesn't want too much more intimate public contact i.e. no ass touch then I maintain the contact we have and continue talking.
I ask for a dance. I don't like jabbering too much because I get bored and I might end up saying something that will spoil the stew.

4) Qualifying and disqualifying - I ask her what's going on afterwards. If she responds firmly that she is finding her friend and going home, I go for the number. Usually, when I go out, I am not even ready to fcuk. I don't eat my kills on the same night, I store them for later on during the week. So if I could push harder for the first night slam but I hardly do.

So if the first night slam is not there, I go for the number. If I get the number, I bring my phone out and dial it immediately. If her phone doesn't ring, it's a red flag. Some say, I left my phone at home. If so, I may probably delete her number.

If I call her three times (the next day or the day after) and I don't get a reply, I delete her number immediately. No re-text. I used to play that simpish Beta Casper the cowardly text to see if she was free. Fcuk dat. Remove temptation. She's gone. If she does re-contact me on some attention whoring I need a simp deal, I sidestep all that and I demand she comes to my place. If there is any wishy washy about that, I end the call (respectfully) and re-delete the number (I have call display).

I didn't qualify in Europe. To be honest, I didn't really have to. Those who wanted to, gave their number and those who didn't want to, would not give number.


5) Ignorance - I do not listen to a word she says. I ignore that. I only watch her body language. I don't hear if she has a man or not, kids, busy, I watch her behaviour, I observe my agenda. I do not pay her too much mind. I just look for the clues in what she says. Once I see sexual openings, I make my play.

So, sir, the aforementioned points are what I have changed exactly, in regards to game.

[Giovonny]

(05-08-2012 10:02 AM)Moma Wrote:  

I relied on basic primal tactics, bulldozing the lizard based on fake street swag akin to some sort of intelligent hoodlum.

Interesting way of putting that.

Social intelligence is sometimes better then intellectual intelligence..

[oldnemesis]

Moma, that's an excellent summary. But would you say you improved, or would you say you adapted? I'm asking that because in pretty much every item you greatly explain why you're doing the things differently than in Europe. And I can second that things do work the way you described it. However it looks like adaptation to me, which you have to do not to improve, but to get the same results you got before since you moved to a different environment. Vast majority of the changes you describe seem to be on the presentation level, which is necessary because a normal European behavior looks like a "loser" for an American.

(Just for the record I do it differently, instead of changing my behavior I make it clear I'm not American, which breaks their judging patterns. This completely confuses young party girls since the most of them lacks the skills and experience to do an assessment, but this is fine with me since they're not my target audience, their attention span is too short for me. Older or smarter chicks dig it though)

A good question here probably would be, have you been back to Europe, have you used the new tactics there, and did you get the better results comparing to what you've got before without investing significantly more effort?

[Moma]

Oldnem - I would say it is an improvement. Without getting into semantics, adaptation is a form of improvement IF one excels in their old environment with the newly adapted skills.Of course as you mentioned, the best method to test this is to return to the original environment and try.

I have not returned to Europe since I left.

But I will soon. So we shall see.