[Aliblahba]

(02-24-2012 01:11 PM)raliv Wrote:  

(02-22-2012 09:33 AM)Aliblahba Wrote:  

^^^ Here's one faster than that:

http://instantdegrees.com/

Not only will this work, I might just tell you how to pull it off.

info please.

haha. I'm in transit right now. Will post on it shortly.

[Aliblahba]

Ok, here's how I'd play this one out.

Pick a general degree, like business management from the lineup. "Having" a degree means you need to speak the lingo. Google the core classes associated with the degree you picked. Pick up the text books at a used book store near a real college. Skim through them hard, cluing in on key words and ideas. You at least need to sound like you know what the fuck your talking about.

Get the degree now and sit on it for awhile. Or see if they'll backdate it. Join any professional organizations associated with your prospected job field. Buffer your resume with some professional certifications, as this will take away some attention from your "college" learning. You need to look robust as much as possible.

During the interview press more on the cert's and your experience. You need to guide them away from asking questions about what you learned in college. Don't sweat this. Most people I know that have a formal education are still fucking stupid, especially management and office personnel. Mention you took the classes online, so to avoid any questions about your brick and mortar b/s.

Worse case they bust you out. So what. You weren't eligible for the job in the first place. HR isn't going to keep a record of it, so if you decide to actually go to school and reapply, it'll be 4 years later.

A lot of companies don't check education background. My current employer did, which is rare. They'll take your sheepskin at face value. Look for smaller companies that are less likely to do a background or have a crack team HR dept. that could sniff you out. You gotta start somewhere anyway.

Target companies that require a degree period. Some places will bring you on board for majoring in underwater basket weaving. So bust out your degree in Estonian. There's a .000000001% chance they even know what the capital is. Tell them you majored in it b/c your grandparents defected from there during the cold war.

Most entry level jobs train you from scratch anyway, so don't worry. Just don't get over your head. Once you get your foot in the door and stay in a job for awhile, transition into another company. Now that you are working and doing well, it matters less about your education, and more on your work performance and history. Try to find another job that will consider experience in lieu of education. Don't mention your degree. If they hire you, you'll start on a clean slate. Now you can forget the degree and you have a job you like.

Is everyone tracking so far?

[joehoya]

One thing to consider for all the guys talking about putting fake degrees, and degrees from schools they never graduated from on their resume. For most folks, your working career is going to span DECADES. Just because you don't get caught at first, doesn't mean that you won't get caught eventually, and when you do it could destroy your career.

I am not speaking from some moralistic high ground. I am speaking from what I have seen. I have seen MULTIPLE cases of folks with fake degrees getting nailed.

When first started working in the banking industry, a guy who had been with the bank for 5 years was up for promotion. Between the time he was hired and the time he was eligible for promotion, HR became more rigorous regarding verifying education. They didn't go back and recheck everyone from before, but they did verify your credentials if you went up for promotion. This dude stated that he graduated from a university on his initial resume/job application 5 years earlier. When HR reviewed his file for promotion they checked the degree and found out that he had never graduated.

He had been doing an EXCELLENT job in his current position. Nevertheless, he got called into our senior VP's office to explain himself. When he left the VP's office, security escorted him to his desk, watched him clean out his personal belongings, and escorted him out of the building. To make matters worse, they didn't just lay him off, they fired him "for cause" which made him ineligible for unemployment (at least that was how it was explained to me).

Another guy got nailed when a coworker found out that he was supposed to be an alum of the same school the coworker went to. The coworker looked him up on the alumni database, found nothing, confronted the guy, then reported it to the guy's manager. Someone even tried this with me. They saw my school mascot on my desk, then sent me an email at my personal, alumni email address. The only way they could have gotten that was by going into the alumni database, looking me up, and getting my email address from it. It turns out, they were also an alum of my school. If I had been faking my degree, I would have been fucked.

These are just two cases that I know of. I know of several others. I know a woman that basically cannot leave her current job. When she got the job she listed a degree from an unaccredited school. No one checked back then. Now, EVERY employer in her industry checks the accreditation of degrees. I found out about her because she applied for a job and my employer. We checked the school and discovered that it was an unaccredited diploma mill. Now that every other employer checks new applicants, she cannot leave her old job because her resume won't stand up to the scrutiny.

It just seems like a stupid play to go the fake degree route. You also leave yourself wide open to attacks from enemies, do-gooders, and just people that may want your job. Keep in mind, as more records go online, and more companies offer cheap credential verification, it is getting EASIER and MORE COMMON to check credentials. By hitching your career to a fake degree, you are essentially betting against technology AND leaving yourself open for someone else to burn you.

[pitt]

Ali thanks for sharing the site, that shit looks good.

I am thinking of doing this as a business. Basically find people that are interested in buying degrees from north american universities and then sell it to them.

Does anybody have an idea how companies usually check if a degree is real or if is fake?

I could easily sell that shit for 3000 dollars each.

[UrbanNerd]

(02-25-2012 09:48 AM)pitt Wrote:  

Does anybody have an idea how companies usually check if a degree is real or if is fake?

Some college are registered to this database where employers can pay a fee and get a printout of the schools that the candidate attended (and have degrees from).

Some schools (less and less each day) allow direct calls to their Registrar's office for verification.

Many employers hired outside agencies to do the verification.

[pitt]

(02-25-2012 10:28 AM)UrbanNerd Wrote:  

(02-25-2012 09:48 AM)pitt Wrote:  

Does anybody have an idea how companies usually check if a degree is real or if is fake?

Some college are registered to this database where employers can pay a fee and get a printout of the schools that the candidate attended (and have degrees from).

Some schools (less and less each day) allow direct calls to their Registrar's office for verification.

Many employers hired outside agencies to do the verification.

Do you know if big corporations with operations overseas also have access to this database? I am thinking chevron, total (french company), etc

I am quiet convinced that this will be effective for african companies with limited foreign investments, also medium sized companies from anywhere may not have means to verify the legitimacy of these certificates.

I am not using this certificate anyway, but i just want to ensure that the people that will buy it from me will benefit from this.

[rozayINTL]

I want to clear the air on the topic of "college" and give the younger guys on this forum some serious, heartfelt advice. I came up from nothing, everyone in my family was/is completely uneducated (high school drops outs, etc.) and I feel I have a duty to pass on some wisdom. I was lucky enough to have been given a dose of reality from a mentor when I was younger, and if it had not been for that I would probably be living in a trailer park right now.

I've seen this thread advocating in support of college stating that it's crucial for..
1. Building 'lasting friendships'
2. Pussy
3. Having the 'time of your life'
...I can't even begin to tell you how backwards and wrong this is. College is not about partying and fucking. If you think it is, you will have blown the single greatest opportunity to make something of yourself, that you may ever have in your life. If I had focused on building friendships and having a "great experience" in college, I would probably be the guy with a shitty job, and even shittier job prospects, telling you not to go.

DON'T GO TO COLLEGE TO MAKE FRIENDS.
Go to college to study and work harder than you ever have and gain actual skills.
Even if you're the "entrepreneurial type" you will need a college degree to be taken seriously, now more than ever.


If you don't know what you want to do, which is most kids (welcome to america, where making actual life decisions is almost as terrifying as having to speak in front of a group of people).. I would recommend anything challenging, that gives you technical skills of some sort. Of course these will be the 'boring' and 'lame' majors that kids will drop out of like flies.
Usually that's a good indicator that something is difficult, and that you should probably be going for it.
For the love of god don't major in fucking "film history" or sociology, psychology, 'international business', philosophy, or english literature. If you do, you'll have nobody but yourself to blame when you're struggling to make ends meet for years after you graduate. The exception is if that is truly your passion in life and you can be the absolute best or close to it, at whatever it is (film/writing)


Go against the wave.
Don't be one of the many, a sheep, a follower..
Somebody will say "well isn't going to college being a follower, going with the 'system.'" No. It's not. Going to college and giving a half assed effort in a half assed major, that's being a follower. Because that's what most kids end up doing. Not going to college and doing that is even worse.

Go to college, make your education count for something, show people what you're made of. It doesn't matter what school you go to, and when you start, if you are the cream of the crop and can contribute value (to a company, to customers) you will be a success.

Don't be an average student. Don't be lazy. And don't be afraid, of anything.
Good luck.

[Goldin Boy]

(02-25-2012 09:48 AM)pitt Wrote:  

Ali thanks for sharing the site, that shit looks good.

I am thinking of doing this as a business. Basically find people that are interested in buying degrees from north american universities and then sell it to them.

Does anybody have an idea how companies usually check if a degree is real or if is fake?

I could easily sell that shit for 3000 dollars each.

National Student Clearinghouse. Many US colleges participate. They have dates of attendance and if you graduated if I remember correctly: http://www.studentclearinghouse.org/

[Goldin Boy]

And some motorists get killed by drunk drivers through no fault of their own. Car crashes are the inherent risk involved with driving anywhere. Getting caught is the inherent risk of faking degrees on a resume. The alternative? you become David Geffen who faked a transcript and got into William Morris.

I see your point in the anecdotes but those stories aren't commonplace. Luckily HR in the US is a lizard-dominated field so you can count on the half-assed checks and cheats like me will fly under the radar.

Since I took the red pill I loathe the alternative of playing by the rules since I've realized that those rules/law exist because most people lack the mental fortitude to live their lives without outside interference. Enough about my personal philosophy: Faking degrees comes down to is the risk worth the rewards. I say go for it, many companies on line do it for a good price.

[pitt]

This company online (instantdegrees) claims that the university will confirm that you have attended the uni in case anybody calls them to verify. I am just wondering how they can do this, anybody to help me out?

I already have two clients who want to buy those certificates from me, but i want to make sure im selling them good stuff.

[Entropy]

I honestly don't get the anti-education stance i see in some of these threads.

I think the rigours of education is actually good for you. I have two undergraduate degree in the hard sciences alone. Two masters degree one in engineering, the other in business. All completed in my early twenties.

In-between that, i have read more liberal arts books(philosophy, art, history, literature) than i care to remember and master a few languages.

Yes, i also fuck pretty bitches along the way. Two recent cases in point. CASE A and CASE B.(the head shot picture below)

I also absolutely make sure go out and enjoy right myself now....on top of working out and boxing.

It is all about balance and commitment. and the discipline to implement.

By the time i am in my early thirties...at the rate things are going...i will be a multimillionaire.

I plan on spending all of my early thirties and early 40s completely, exclusively knee deep in pussy and travel.

And guess what? When i am in my early to mid forties...i intend to go back to school and get....a PH.D in molecular biochemistry and neuroscience. That is when i will alternate between spending time conducting my own private science research funded by my own money without any stupid oversight;and banging young sluts around the world, while attending some high-society function shit that befits an accomplished 40something. Keeps maintaining my body and mind in good shape, leveraging everything i have for swimming in harem of pussy, all through my dotage.

Like i said previously, a man has to be complete.

I swear, i fail to understand some of these dichotomous thinking i see here, all these either-or polarity.. e.g, money over bitches, money or time, the great thing in life is coming, etcetera....why does it have to be one or the other?

I say FUCK THAT NOISE! WHY DONT YOU JUST DO IT ALL? Especially if you are one type-A motherfucking go-getter. What is the problem? You are too weak to walk and chew gum at the same time? You cant wake up early enough? You cannot commit to plans and strategies and tactics?

Make a decision, outline a plan, and know very well that everything has an opportunity cost attached to it. Then execute.

[Samseau]

Entropy, what you said was true 10+ years ago. Doesn't apply anymore.

[Entropy]

(02-27-2012 01:02 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

Entropy, what you said was true 10+ years ago. Doesn't apply anymore.

With all due respect, samseau, you are not making sense to me. I am almost done with my phase 2 plan: become a millionaire by late 20s/multimillionaire by early 30s.

I also go out. pick up chicks....however, dont travel as much as i would like: trading ties me down.

Since 1st year at the university i have started my own multiple businesses: from creating a website where people sell stuff(never really took off) to a word-of-mouth business where i take exams for people and get paid based on grade achieved; i also used to write liberal arts essays for people(made some nice money); to using cheerleaders to carwash(made some nice money too until feminists call the police on me and shut me down); to after-university when i started t-shirt printing business(roughly the same time i started trading stocks)and sold the mildly profitable t-shirt printing business to exclusively focus on trading financial instruments.

If i tell you i was doing all these while generating scientific breakthroughs in DNA sequencing, tumor targeting and protein structure mapping, you wont beleive me.

For the dna sequencing. i tagged polymerase III holoenzyme with photoreactive agents that signals confirmation changes as pol III zips along the DNA...the conformational changes indicates whether you have cytosine, adenine, thymine, guanine....the method was too imprecise:It confuses cytosine with guanine and adenine with thiamine, thereby limiting its effectiveness to properly sequence the DNA.... but was fucking fast though:it was happening at the speed of polymerase III chain reaction which was literally orders of magnitude.

Tumor targeting:i simply used sickle cell erythrocytes to payload deliver therapeutics to tumour cells exploiting vascularization due to angiogenesis, utilizing apoxia and elevated ph levels to rupture erythrocytes thereby empting there chemotherapeutic cargo at targeted tumor sites. This bypass subjecting cancer patients entire body to chemotherapy(the payload is encapsulated inside the sickle red blood cells). on top of that, it can reach deep, within-the-brain inoperable cancers(because erythrocytes cells get everywhere). Did some study with mice.

Protein structure mapping: This was simple in its elegance. I basically exploited Anfensin's dogma or thermodynamic hypothesis using a titrable denaturant to slowly denature and control protein folding and map them. problem? reducing the signal to noise ratio on the quantum level proves...shall we say, too much of an insurmountable headache. The problem will be solved one day by a genius...i simply wasnt clever enough for it. I am only human.)

AND YOU WONT beleive me that despite doing business and scientific research i was also fucking hotties on the side with my cold, bold approach on a regular basis. On campus there are pussies everywhere. My first week...my very first week at the university,...i fucked a black chick. Went outside for some fresh air, saw her sitting, went over, number close, 3 days later, my balls in her mouth. Done. My 3rd week ever on campus, i still remember it as clear as day: had my first college 1 night stand. She was a raucous blonde. On average, I number close twice a week practically every week of 1st year. The women campus where they have all the feminists was my favourite hunting ground. Eventually, i developed a reputation...i was slapped with a few harassment charges. I was even banned from a college building. I shit you not. Here is the picture of the building that banned me:


I was practicing what i later learned that those pua call 'direct game'.

I am solid 1.28 meters = 1.82 centimenters = 6 feet. Well constituted. Played sports in secondary school.

For most of my college years and after, i practiced direct game...it was when i started hearing and reading about neil strauss and mystery that i actually started trying indirect game.

I can go on and on and on.....but what is the point? ...you either wont believe or think it is impossible.

C'est la vie.

[thegmanifesto]

(02-25-2012 11:31 AM)rozayINTL Wrote:  

I've seen this thread advocating in support of college stating that it's crucial for..
1. Building 'lasting friendships'
2. Pussy
3. Having the 'time of your life'
...I can't even begin to tell you how backwards and wrong this is. College is not about partying and fucking. If you think it is, you will have blown the single greatest opportunity to make something of yourself, that you may ever have in your life. If I had focused on building friendships and having a "great experience" in college, I would probably be the guy with a shitty job, and even shittier job prospects, telling you not to go.

DON'T GO TO COLLEGE TO MAKE FRIENDS.

I don't agree with this.

Networking is the single most valuable thing I got from college.

That and swooping lots of girls and making money.

Everyone is different.

[Samseau]

Entropy, you didn't need college to do any of that shit. College gave you an opportunity, but overall you should ask yourself if you would have been better off without college.

I think you would have accomplished just as much, if not more, had you lived on a college campus while not enrolled there. You would have been able to do biz with the students, fuck girls, and still have access to libraries and labs (through other students).

It's obvious that most of what you know is self-taught, so where's the value in your 40K piece of paper?

[Entropy]

(02-27-2012 02:58 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

Entropy, you didn't need college to do any of that shit. College gave you an opportunity, but overall you should ask yourself if you would have been better off without college.

I think you would have accomplished just as much, if not more, had you lived on a college campus while not enrolled there. You would have been able to do biz with the students, fuck girls, and still have access to libraries and labs (through other students).

It's obvious that most of what you know is self-taught, so where's the value in your 40K piece of paper?

Samseau, here is the breakdown. let me start with what you got correctly:

the liberal arts studies you can learn on your own. i give you that one. Let's keep it real. I learn more liberal arts all by self than some stupid professor ever taught me.

The math(i taught myself calculus all the way to multivariable) you can learn on your own( anybody can learn math, they just have to apply themselves). i give you that one too.

the business classes. I later realize that you can learn on your own too. so, yeah, i give you that one. In fact, i already mastered the framework before stepping into any classes(anybody can).

Now, for the part where you are off:
Now, the advance science and engineering classes, especially the lab part). Unless you are a fucking genius(which i am not) you will need a professor and teaching assistants for those. There is a difference between reading scientific papers and doing the experiments. the hands-on experiential education is irreplaceable. Science majors here can chime in. You simply cannot learn how to do experimental biochemistry laboratory or methods in recombinant molecular biology technology all by yourself. You need the drills, multiples of them.

On top of that, you cannot get into experimental lab without access cards/keys...in certain cases, biometric scanners(depending on what government branch is funding the research)....how about reagents and specimens?...they need to be ordered through a catalog and billed to the school, some require special authorization....how about incubation periods with vectors?...some last a couple of days....some many little things like that....on top of that, there is always a couple of graduate student Asian lads hanging around at 1am....3am...5am...that will see you if you dont belong there.

You cannot compare hard science and engineering to liberal arts. I give you points for the liberal arts...but not for the science/engineering aspect.

[blurb]

Entropy's homeland is Iceland. I think where the disconnect is occuring is maybe because the scientific research opportunities are different and more abundant than they are in America? Perhaps someone in the Icelandic education system can chime in.

In America, you need money if you want to get anything done. (And yes, I am a science major.)

Even scientific grants are not that much; colleges and universities take anywhere from 30%-40% of all scientific grants, and scientists have to make due with whatever's left after everyone else has raided and pillaged.

Most of the groundbreaking scientific breakthroughs have come from basic research. However, no one wants to throw money at some project which may or may not return $$$. It's far more profitable to have slight improvements in current scientific equipment which yields far greater returns than unproven hypotheses and shaky theories. Every science professor I've met has always complained about lack of funding. I know guys with Ph.Ds in their 30s and older who make around 35k-40k and are basically someone else's lab monkey. Who wants to end up like that? The American Chemical Society (ACS) is made up of a bunch of old men who don't want to lose their jobs and are hostile towards letting new guys takeover. Oh, and another thing, the JEALOUSY. People don't want their ideas stolen. Everyone wants to be the next "great" scientist or remembered in history for some discovery and are willing to backstab, lie, cheat, and steal.

If you have a passion for science, it's risky to go into science beyond a bachelor's unless you have money to independently fund your own research.

If you have money, you can do anything.

Why is it that poetry and great achievements almost never came from the peasant class? Because they didn't have the money to pursue it. This is why becoming financially independent is important.

Science basically used to be a hobby for rich men. Antoine Lavoisier, the Father of Modern Chemistry, was basically an upper-class French lawyer who had time and money on his hands. Galileo was directly funded by the wealthy Medici family.

So, in summary, you need to have money if you want to follow your dreams or do what you love, or have someone else pay for it (unlikely).

You have an idea for a scientific experiment, but no one is willing to fund it. You'll have to fund it independently with your own money.

This is why I'm an advocate for becoming financially independent. Life is not all about chasing women. Some guys have a greater calling and thoroughly enjoy other interests and activities in addition to banging women.

"You lose money chasing women, but you never lose women chasing money."

[WesternCancer]

(02-27-2012 02:36 PM)thegmanifesto Wrote:  

(02-25-2012 11:31 AM)rozayINTL Wrote:  

I've seen this thread advocating in support of college stating that it's crucial for..
1. Building 'lasting friendships'
2. Pussy
3. Having the 'time of your life'
...I can't even begin to tell you how backwards and wrong this is. College is not about partying and fucking. If you think it is, you will have blown the single greatest opportunity to make something of yourself, that you may ever have in your life. If I had focused on building friendships and having a "great experience" in college, I would probably be the guy with a shitty job, and even shittier job prospects, telling you not to go.

DON'T GO TO COLLEGE TO MAKE FRIENDS.

I don't agree with this.

Networking is the single most valuable thing I got from college.

That and swooping lots of girls and making money.

Everyone is different.

I met this one girl in class at the start of semester who makes ridiculous cash selling shrooms, LSD, DMT, MDMA, anything like that. She just camps out in first year classes and everyone bites. I think shes paid for her entire schooling with that shit. I may have to say "fuck it" to my group work that we have to do and swoop her. Someone needs to do a post on "college drug game"

[JayMillz]

[UrbanNerd]

I think folks need to know their desired industry before investing a bunch of cash into college. I did not know how to "work the college system" until after some years working in the software engineering industry. What I found out was that graduate degrees were just a "check off the box" item as far as qualifying you for higher positions and higher pay. Since I did not plan to get a PhD, I knew that all I had to do was pretty much get a M.S. Employers (at least the DC defense contractors) could care less about what your thesis was in...just that you HAD a graduate degree. That made me have the following plan for grad school:

1) Fewest amount of credits - I eliminated ALL schools with 33 or 36 credit programs
2) Online - So I can study at home
3) Cheapest cost with best "name".
4) Non-Thesis option

I picked University of Wisconsin. While it wasn't the cheapest, the particular program allowed you to TRANSFER IN 50% of the credits. That means that I could find 15 cheap graduate credits. I found me probably the lowest-ranked on the Cal-State schools (Cal-State Dominguez Hills) and snagged 9 credits (3 courses) which were (at that time) $450/course. Snagged 2 more courses from New Mexico State Univ. ($600/course). U-Wisconsin took ALL of them. The 5 U-Wisconsin courses costs (at the time) $7500 most of which was paid by my employers. I paid for the other 5 courses out of my pocket. At the end of the day, the degree said M.S. Engineering from U-Wisconsin.

I don't list the schools of my transfer graduate credits on my resume and employers don't even care. All they see is the M.S. and I get the higher salary/position slot.

Oh yeah, most of the courses I selected were "grad versions" of what I had as an undergrad. When I presented my "curriculum plan" to my dean/advisor, he looked at me shaking his head like "you punk ass mofo". I didn't care. I just wanted to check off the box.

[Hencredible Casanova]

(02-28-2012 01:02 AM)UrbanNerd Wrote:  

I think folks need to know their desired industry before investing a bunch of cash into college. I did not know how to "work the college system" until after some years working in the software engineering industry. What I found out was that graduate degrees were just a "check off the box" item as far as qualifying you for higher positions and higher pay. Since I did not plan to get a PhD, I knew that all I had to do was pretty much get a M.S. Employers (at least the DC defense contractors) could care less about what your thesis was in...just that you HAD a graduate degree. That made me have the following plan for grad school:

1) Fewest amount of credits - I eliminated ALL schools with 33 or 36 credit programs
2) Online - So I can study at home
3) Cheapest cost with best "name".
4) Non-Thesis option

I picked University of Wisconsin. While it wasn't the cheapest, the particular program allowed you to TRANSFER IN 50% of the credits. That means that I could find 15 cheap graduate credits. I found me probably the lowest-ranked on the Cal-State schools (Cal-State Dominguez Hills) and snagged 9 credits (3 courses) which were (at that time) $450/course. Snagged 2 more courses from New Mexico State Univ. ($600/course). U-Wisconsin took ALL of them. The 5 U-Wisconsin courses costs (at the time) $7500 most of which was paid by my employers. I paid for the other 5 courses out of my pocket. At the end of the day, the degree said M.S. Engineering from U-Wisconsin.

I don't list the schools of my transfer graduate credits on my resume and employers don't even care. All they see is the M.S. and I get the higher salary/position slot.

Oh yeah, most of the courses I selected were "grad versions" of what I had as an undergrad. When I presented my "curriculum plan" to my dean/advisor, he looked at me shaking his head like "you punk ass mofo". I didn't care. I just wanted to check off the box.

Well played man. You did good by going into government. It's hilarious how the "gubment" operates.

[Samseau]

Entropy Wrote:

Now, for the part where you are off:
Now, the advance science and engineering classes, especially the lab part). Unless you are a fucking genius(which i am not) you will need a professor and teaching assistants for those. There is a difference between reading scientific papers and doing the experiments. the hands-on experiential education is irreplaceable. Science majors here can chime in. You simply cannot learn how to do experimental biochemistry laboratory or methods in recombinant molecular biology technology all by yourself. You need the drills, multiples of them.

On top of that, you cannot get into experimental lab without access cards/keys...in certain cases, biometric scanners(depending on what government branch is funding the research)....how about reagents and specimens?...they need to be ordered through a catalog and billed to the school, some require special authorization....how about incubation periods with vectors?...some last a couple of days....some many little things like that....on top of that, there is always a couple of graduate student Asian lads hanging around at 1am....3am...5am...that will see you if you dont belong there.

And how do you know if you had skipped college you wouldn't have had more money/time to learn how to do research from actual professionals even better/faster?

Considering around half of history's great scientists never went to a university, I'd say you aren't looking at the big picture here.


College used to be a good choice, a good place to learn. Now it's a bad place to learn. Three reasons college is a joke:

1. High tuition (so you'll be forced to work more to pay off debts)
2. Gen-Ed requirements (bullshit courses you have to take in order to get a degree, thus costing you more time and money)
3. Peer-review system (so there's almost no originality in science or published work anymore)

Before the advent of these events, college was good. But no longer - the modern man is better off without "education". He will be better read, more original in thought, and less indebted had he just educated himself.

[Entropy]

(02-28-2012 02:38 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

And how do you know if you had skipped college you wouldn't have had more money/time to learn how to do research from actual professionals even better/faster?

Considering around half of history's great scientists never went to a university, I'd say you aren't looking at the big picture here.


College used to be a good choice, a good place to learn. Now it's a bad place to learn. Three reasons college is a joke:

1. High tuition (so you'll be forced to work more to pay off debts)
2. Gen-Ed requirements (bullshit courses you have to take in order to get a degree, thus costing you more time and money)
3. Peer-review system (so there's almost no originality in science or published work anymore)

Before the advent of these events, college was good. But no longer - the modern man is better off without "education". He will be better read, more original in thought, and less indebted had he just educated himself.

Are you engaging in a sophistry play just for the fun of it?
I have to ask, because when i look at your arguments, i was thinking: this lad is surely joking.

1. Your counter-factual argument is anemic. I dont feel like elaborately dissecting it right now.
2. Your critique of peer-review system is misplaced. Yes, there is a shitload of originality and breakthroughs in science every month. Grab "NATURE" or "SCIENCE" journal or search "pubmed" database.
3. Historical scientists educational background? Look at the educational background of Nobel prize winners in science or Fields medal winners in Mathematics.
4.There is merit in general education: a man has to be complete. You should not be a narrow technical person. Reading the history of scientific advances(especially the biographies of scientists) you can clearly see just how much things outside of science inspires scientific breakthrough. Multidisciplinary studies is essential.
5. Formalized science education stunts intellectual creativity and development? Seriously? Now i know you are just trolling.

[Samseau]

(02-29-2012 03:56 AM)Entropy Wrote:  

(02-28-2012 02:38 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

And how do you know if you had skipped college you wouldn't have had more money/time to learn how to do research from actual professionals even better/faster?

Considering around half of history's great scientists never went to a university, I'd say you aren't looking at the big picture here.


College used to be a good choice, a good place to learn. Now it's a bad place to learn. Three reasons college is a joke:

1. High tuition (so you'll be forced to work more to pay off debts)
2. Gen-Ed requirements (bullshit courses you have to take in order to get a degree, thus costing you more time and money)
3. Peer-review system (so there's almost no originality in science or published work anymore)

Before the advent of these events, college was good. But no longer - the modern man is better off without "education". He will be better read, more original in thought, and less indebted had he just educated himself.

Are you engaging in a sophistry play just for the fun of it?
I have to ask, because when i look at your arguments, i was thinking: this lad is surely joking.

1. Your counter-factual argument is anemic. I dont feel like elaborately dissecting it right now.
2. Your critique of peer-review system is misplaced. Yes, there is a shitload of originality and breakthroughs in science every month. Grab "NATURE" or "SCIENCE" journal or search "pubmed" database.
3. Historical scientists educational background? Look at the educational background of Nobel prize winners in science or Fields medal winners in Mathematics.
4.There is merit in general education: a man has to be complete. You should not be a narrow technical person. Reading the history of scientific advances(especially the biographies of scientists) you can clearly see just how much things outside of science inspires scientific breakthrough. Multidisciplinary studies is essential.
5. Formalized science education stunts intellectual creativity and development? Seriously? Now i know you are just trolling.

For all the claims of being a well-rounded person, it doesn't seem you've studied intellectual history. Especially the history of science. You think what's published today in NATURE or SCIENCE is groundbreaking? We haven't had major groundbreaking scientific research done since the atomic age.

General-eds in college is a neat idea in concept, but in practice serves nothing except to waste a student's time.

But I take great issue with this:

Quote:

5. Formalized science education stunts intellectual creativity and development? Seriously? Now i know you are just trolling.

I'm sorry, you are just wrong. The initial great thinkers, Plato and Socrates, never went to school.

Nor was Descartes, Rousseau, or Augustine educated in any formal sense.

Einstein's major contributions came from the learning he had outside of school:

Quote:

When Einstein was ten years old Max Talmud (later changed to Max Talmey), a poor Jewish medical student from Poland, was introduced to the Einstein family by his brother, and during weekly visits over the next five years he gave the boy popular books on science, mathematical texts and philosophical writings. These included Immanuel Kant's Critique of Pure Reason and Euclid's Elements (which Einstein called the "holy little geometry book")

Quote:

His father intended for him to pursue electrical engineering, but Einstein clashed with authorities and resented the school's regimen and teaching method. He later wrote that the spirit of learning and creative thought were lost in strict rote learning. At the end of December 1894 he travelled to Italy to join his family in Pavia, convincing the school to let him go by using a doctor's note.[16] It was during his time in Italy in 1895 without formal schooling that he wrote a short essay with the title "On the Investigation of the State of the Ether in a Magnetic Field."

This is just from wikipedia.

Feynman and Newton have similar stories as well, and this is just an account of guys who actually spent time in the system. There are countless others: medieval philosophers, enlightenment scientists, roman engineers, British sailors (who made innovations w/seacraft), French mathematicians, who never had any sort of meaningful formal education.

Free your mind from the shackles of the modern education system, and only then will you achieve anything.

[Entropy]

Would have loved to reply in detail...but i cannot anymore. check your PM.

I will sorely miss this discussion.

(02-29-2012 09:32 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

(02-29-2012 03:56 AM)Entropy Wrote:  

(02-28-2012 02:38 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

And how do you know if you had skipped college you wouldn't have had more money/time to learn how to do research from actual professionals even better/faster?

Considering around half of history's great scientists never went to a university, I'd say you aren't looking at the big picture here.


College used to be a good choice, a good place to learn. Now it's a bad place to learn. Three reasons college is a joke:

1. High tuition (so you'll be forced to work more to pay off debts)
2. Gen-Ed requirements (bullshit courses you have to take in order to get a degree, thus costing you more time and money)
3. Peer-review system (so there's almost no originality in science or published work anymore)

Before the advent of these events, college was good. But no longer - the modern man is better off without "education". He will be better read, more original in thought, and less indebted had he just educated himself.

Are you engaging in a sophistry play just for the fun of it?
I have to ask, because when i look at your arguments, i was thinking: this lad is surely joking.

1. Your counter-factual argument is anemic. I dont feel like elaborately dissecting it right now.
2. Your critique of peer-review system is misplaced. Yes, there is a shitload of originality and breakthroughs in science every month. Grab "NATURE" or "SCIENCE" journal or search "pubmed" database.
3. Historical scientists educational background? Look at the educational background of Nobel prize winners in science or Fields medal winners in Mathematics.
4.There is merit in general education: a man has to be complete. You should not be a narrow technical person. Reading the history of scientific advances(especially the biographies of scientists) you can clearly see just how much things outside of science inspires scientific breakthrough. Multidisciplinary studies is essential.
5. Formalized science education stunts intellectual creativity and development? Seriously? Now i know you are just trolling.

For all the claims of being a well-rounded person, it doesn't seem you've studied intellectual history. Especially the history of science. You think what's published today in NATURE or SCIENCE is groundbreaking? We haven't had major groundbreaking scientific research done since the atomic age.

General-eds in college is a neat idea in concept, but in practice serves nothing except to waste a student's time.

But I take great issue with this:

Quote:

5. Formalized science education stunts intellectual creativity and development? Seriously? Now i know you are just trolling.

I'm sorry, you are just wrong. The initial great thinkers, Plato and Socrates, never went to school.

Nor was Descartes, Rousseau, or Augustine educated in any formal sense.

Einstein's major contributions came from the learning he had outside of school:

Quote:

When Einstein was ten years old Max Talmud (later changed to Max Talmey), a poor Jewish medical student from Poland, was introduced to the Einstein family by his brother, and during weekly visits over the next five years he gave the boy popular books on science, mathematical texts and philosophical writings. These included Immanuel Kant's Critique of Pure Reason and Euclid's Elements (which Einstein called the "holy little geometry book")

Quote:

His father intended for him to pursue electrical engineering, but Einstein clashed with authorities and resented the school's regimen and teaching method. He later wrote that the spirit of learning and creative thought were lost in strict rote learning. At the end of December 1894 he travelled to Italy to join his family in Pavia, convincing the school to let him go by using a doctor's note.[16] It was during his time in Italy in 1895 without formal schooling that he wrote a short essay with the title "On the Investigation of the State of the Ether in a Magnetic Field."

This is just from wikipedia.

Feynman and Newton have similar stories as well, and this is just an account of guys who actually spent time in the system. There are countless others: medieval philosophers, enlightenment scientists, roman engineers, British sailors (who made innovations w/seacraft), French mathematicians, who never had any sort of meaningful formal education.

Free your mind from the shackles of the modern education system, and only then will you achieve anything.