Noir, first of all thank you for your insightful and highly interesting post. It's this kind of writing that makes me come here. Some absolute gems of advice. Allow me to ask a few questions below.
You mean if I had huge SMV, other bargaining power, she would just behave in exactly the way that I want in order to please me? The thing is she does not know exactly what I want, I have to teach her. But you're right of course, in a way, in an ideal relationship you would have to exert no control whatsoever because she would want to behave exactly as you want, to please you. But this is the real world, it's not going to happen out of itself most of the time.
Do I understand this correctly, you act aloof and disinterested when everything is going well to keep her on her toes?
That is absolutely true, I found this to be the case exactly.
Quote: (11-16-2018 03:57 AM)Noir Wrote:
If you’re looking to exert control in a LTR it means you don’t have enough bargaining power. Some is given to you by virtue of what she thinks of you and how much self-esteem you give her.
You mean if I had huge SMV, other bargaining power, she would just behave in exactly the way that I want in order to please me? The thing is she does not know exactly what I want, I have to teach her. But you're right of course, in a way, in an ideal relationship you would have to exert no control whatsoever because she would want to behave exactly as you want, to please you. But this is the real world, it's not going to happen out of itself most of the time.
Quote: (11-16-2018 03:57 AM)Noir Wrote:
You will hear the usual, be aloof, disinterested and all permutations of breaking rapport. This works but it’s not always fun. I enjoy my woman’s company and the person that I am around her so when I find myself breaking rapport, it can be difficult as the natural response emerges when she fucks up. The hard way is when everything is going well. Yet, I do it on the high points to keep her on her toes so when she fucks up, it’s more of a sincere, face to face, ‘you fucked up’ kind of discussion.
Do I understand this correctly, you act aloof and disinterested when everything is going well to keep her on her toes?
Quote: (11-16-2018 03:57 AM)Noir Wrote:
The more you try and control someone, the more they will rebel so you have to be sly about it.
That is absolutely true, I found this to be the case exactly.
Quote: (11-16-2018 03:57 AM)Noir Wrote:
A few pointers and remember that women are just pinging off what you put out there.
a) The person who is less invested will control the relationship. This doesn’t seem the case in your example. [Well spotted, I overinvested far too heavily from the start, big mistake on my part. I am working on getting back control but it is an uphill struggle, and even PapayaTapper seems to have given up on that being possible. Like with some wild horses, there comes a point when you have to accept a horse is unteachable and you walk away and find a better horse]
b) Preselection will see her mould into what you want because she wants you to herself over others. [Yes, preselection is extremely important, as I found with my sexually incompatible first girl, and the child crazy second girl, none of which did it for me, the third girl ticks a lot of boxes, but seems to have some behavioural issues]
c) You can choose the carrot or the stick. Girls I have been with know my temper and standards that the stick is scary and I never need to resort to it so the carrot works for me. The key here is to never lose your temper, only let her know that you have one. [So if you do not lose your temper, how do they know the stick is scary? Can you give an example of when you unpacked the stick?]
d) You want to be unpredictable as women operate off feedback. Being unpredictable is important in the sense that you keep her on her toes as she won’t be too sure where she stands with you on a day by day basis. This is the bread and butter of breaking rapport because it's valuable when juxtaposed against the 'good times'. Don’t over do this as it creates insecurities in some and magnifies them in others and you will need to tolerate this shit. [Okay, but does this work in a very long term LTR, won't she KNOW where you stand after a good number of years together?]
e) Fuck her well and own her mind. This is understated on this forum. Women have 2 virginities. Their first and then the real one where you open them up to their sexuality. This gives you so much leverage that it takes care of any control requirements and stuff. It’s basically another thing that you offer her that she can get nowhere else. With all women you wanna ensure YOU are demand inelastic i.e. no matter what your fluctuations in behavior, her demand is sky high, like medicine for terminal illnesses. Charge it at $20, charge it at $2000; she needs it, she will pay the price. [Yes, I have that going for me, sexually I give her what she needs, without that I think we would be done now given the demands I have made]
f) Choose what you bitch about because too many ‘rules’ will set the frame of reprimanding and it dilutes the importance of each thing so act accordingly.[This is very important, to me anyway, because I tend to overdo it, so I will have to choose my battles more carefully. Excellent point]
g) Be wary that not all red flags are equal. You have behavioural red flags that are past and present.
For the past red flags, you have to accept them because they are done and dusted. You take this into consideration as it made her who she is now. Harping on about them is weak and if you don’t like them then don’t take her in. Women are very ‘take it or leave it’ at times and you bringing up their past is one of them. They all regret and are shameful about it, especially when they realize you don’t like it. The more you harp on the more they hold you accountable for the bad feelings that they get when recalling it so this doesn’t help. [Noir, this is absolutely excellent advice, which really applies in my case. Thank you]
My personal rule for current red flags is the once rule. If it’s once, I observe it. If it happens again, I intervene to ensure it doesn’t become a trend. I will tell them something along the lines of “I trust you to deal with this but your first response wasn’t encouraging so you understand my reservations about you handling this again” [Have you ever missed a red flag, ie let it slide and then had to correct it after?]
When I do this, I frame it as this is a game and we need to know we are playing by the same rules so we don’t have unnecessary misunderstandings. This is followed by throwing in the keyword of ‘communication’ i.e. “I am communicating this so we are on the same page. You wouldn’t want me to do the same to you and hurt you so let’s be aware of this.”[Nice way to put it. Much nicer than I would put it. Yours is better.]
This rule also eliminates any excuses later on, should she transgress. Clarity is key here.
For example, this week, my girl deleted guys she slept with, off her Facebook as a guy messaged her a few weeks in, to meet up.
This was a response to something she did a few weeks ago:
She asked me if I think men and women can be friends if they’ve slept with each other. Doesn’t matter if she is naïve or this was a shit test as my response is uniform.
I told her “I am not your father and you can do what you want but be smart about this and understand there are consequences”.
She said “I understand and I wanted you to know about this”.
I responded "You reply and I will kick your ass to the curb, that’s the consequence here. Do it now if you must so I don’t waste my time here”.
Another guy messaged her on Sunday and I knew it immediately, when she received the message, because she exhaled and rolled her eyes. I mentioned nothing until Wednesday when she asked me what I was doing and I told her I am doing some writing. Naturally, she wanted to know about what and I said ‘us’.
I then saw her that evening and told her the above (I trust you to deal with this etc.). I did this on a high point, when everything in her mind was perfect, to let her know that I know shit. I know fucking everything. She confirmed she never responded. Yesterday, I noticed she deleted both guys and I think a few more based off the amount of friends she has. I know how many she slept with, at 22 and it's an acceptable number for me especially as I am on 3-4x as many.
My point is, it’s not healthy and I don’t care because I set the rules and she knows. If she does anything stupid, it won’t be for lack of knowing that it’s wrong and it makes my decision automatic, should it happen. Will it happen? Highly unlikely, at least at this stage. Again, women are women.
It’s a problem when your girlfriend is beautiful and in high demand. Guys want 8s and 9s but underestimate the mental RAM required to juggle them and their intricacies. Especially the younger ones who are naive and malleable because you can't trust them to handle shit as much. You're operating off a smaller pool of reference points. [Very, very true, I can hardly go shopping with this girl, if I leave her in an aisle, she tells me a guy hit on her]
All the DMs and shit come from guys they have slept with once upon a time or guys in social/work circles who they see over a prolonged time period which explains your insecurity and wanting to impose control. [Absolutely true, this one ex of hers kept contacting her and even showed up where she lived, in another country to his. She was with me at the time, luckily]
I frame this male thirsty behaviour as weak (to her) when it comes up and she sees it that way too which kinda does the job for me. Never directly always indirectly. I am fortunate that I have a story for each situation and able to frame it accordingly. Then I can tie it with any specific thing that annoys me, to reference e.g. "Remember when x did so and so? It's quite similar to this" - given that she knows that x in the story fucked up, did something stupid or made her or me lose respect for that individual. A lot of communication with women works this way. [Great advice]
Your 'value' will invariably decide if she strays or misbehaves and your responses to shit/pressure tests, situations and general demeanor decides how much she feels she can get away with. [Unfortunately at this stage because I overinvested she felt she could get away with anything. I am working hard to correct this misunderstanding. It's not easy]
I have a moral code and principles that I make clear in the beginning. I find ways to thread them into conversations because it sticks best when there’s an example that she can relate to that comes up organically. Otherwise it seems bossy and demanding. Bossy and demanding is fine if it’s on high points but on low points, it’s weak. [Again, absolutely sterling advice, as the demanding and bossy pose is not well received, and easily slid into]
I make shit clear from the start, once I have decided to upgrade her from my rotation. It’s like a job offer once you finish your probationary period. Rules are rules. Women only obey by the rules when they know the alternative is worse and when they acknowledge there is punishment when rules are broken.
Of course, the punishment is in the form of withdrawal of their ‘oxygen’; attention, validation, approval and basically access to YOU. YOU here means the person you are around her when you let your guard down, what she has fallen in love with and the potential ticket she has based off the ambition and future you are working towards.
Outliers exist and they are who we look for but this is a general rule of thumb; trust your gut in this. Don't go out assuming every woman is breaking rules or anything as such. I am a innocent until proven guilty kinda guy [It's a good way to be, I should adopt that]because I am emotionally immune to such things and try and live my life as positive as possible. Unfortunately, many men, this forum included, are a guilty until proven innocent bunch which causes negativity and insecurity.
As per making shit clear, you can see I am more of a preventative guy than a remedial one and I will positively set up the environment for her to not require being controlled. [Excellent point]
This means that I will set up positive cues/triggers in her environment and mind.
Habits and behaviours follow the trigger/cue -> routine -> reward loop. You can apply this to your woman. The personal bubble that you create and the inside jokes you have to amplify this means that she is reminded of you by little things and this is powerful as you want her addicted to you and we fall in love in the absence of the presence of that person.
Unfortunately, my LTR master post has disappeared into the abyss of the internet but read these two posts, concerning this.
Training your girl - I think you will find this pretty useful within the context of your post.
Your value in a relationship
I also suggest reading Influence by Cialdini for certain behavioural cues to put out there for her to comply with. You can find a summary of it on this forum too.