Hey guys, again many thanks for your comments. I appreciate all of them and for those of you also pursuing it, stay strong. I'll respond to each of you individually. Let me say this again, as I mentioned in my first post, a big part of this inspiration has been from Eckhart Tolle Power of Now which if you are not familiar with, I highly recommend. It’s true outcome independence for me at least. It basically means just enjoying now, LIKE RIGHT NOW. You're not stressing out thinking about the future, like someday I'll be a millionaire, I'll live here or there, etc or worse yet, still living in the past but living now and enjoying now. Today is not just a stepping stone for the future as time is an illusion, today is your life so live it like it was your last. So whether I make millions or make a penny, it's irrelevant because I'm doing what I love.
Quote: (05-17-2015 09:09 PM)CJ_W Wrote:
Pretty much what Vincent said Especially #2. I know we've talked personally about this before but, it takes YEARS to get from where you are to where you want to be, it Took Kaskade over 15 years! (he makes over 150k a show now but it took him a long time)
Also along with #2 with what Vincent said; Things have Changed now that it was 5-10 years ago. In order to even be looked at by a record label, you have to create your own following and your own buzz. Which pretty much negates the need to send your stuff to labels in the first place. I sent you the youtube vids of that DJ bento guy a while back and he pretty much just travels around SEA doing DJ gigs and making a living doing that. YOu have to do something like that (the professional video compilation he had made) as part of your marketting plan.
But first things first: You have to have good music, and not just good music, Good music that sounds as as professional as the stuff you hear on the radio, this takes a bit of money (like $4-5k to get the right equipment, programs(Daw, masrting program, synth packs), gear(decent monitor speakers, reference headphones, decent computer preferably with an SSD drive and external HD, Audio interface , decent room set up etc etc) etc) and a LOT of time! The learning curve for making songs SOUND good from a sound design(mixing and mastering) perspective is what takes years (5+) to learn. The stuff you hear on the radio wasn't just made in a day, it takes years of mastery to make songs like that that you hear on the radio, not the actual melody and singing, but rather putting all of those elements together in a way that you can still hear all of them crisply and cleanly.
Now I'm not telling you to not follow your dreams, but what I AM saying is don't expect it to happen overnight. It may, or it may not, just focus on enjoying what you're doing and improving at it bit by bit, and understand that it may take time, and be prepared for that. I'm in the same boat, and it's the reason why I moved back to Tokyo, I have an easy, low-stress job(fuck what people say about it, I immediately disregard anything they say after that, as they are now irrelevant to me - this includes online as well) that I enjoy in a place I love. It pays well, and allows me to work on what I need to work on towards my real goals
Now you CAN go to New York and try it out, you may get lucky, but I'd suggest before anything, getting a stable job (doesn't matter what it is, even Deadmau5 was working for an IT company or something before he got lucky getting discovered from making sample packs for sale and jingles for commercials etc. . .)
But since you're in L.A. now which is pretty much one of the major centers for this kinda of thing, and you haven't gotten lucky yet, well you may have the same issue there.
For Lucky I mean this:
Deadmau5 got discovered after writing samples for a company that sold jingles/music/sounds to ad companies, someone heard his stuff and introduced him to someone who signed him
Skrillex Sent one of his tracks to Deadmau5(I think I may be wrong here) and it was great and bam he got it. . .but then again that was AFTER he was doing his rock band for years anyway
Zedd got in from sending one of his tracks to Skrillex(on his myspace page) and that got him signed.
This stuff doesn't really happen anymore as 1)you can't just send stuff to people anymore, I mean Zedd sent Skillex stuff on MYSPACE! that shit is dead now, and even Deadmau5's label wants you to have a following before they decide to move forward with you on anything.
so you have to compete with tons of other people doing the same thing.
2)sound design has advanced in leaps and bounds since then; You REALLY have to be on top of your shit sound design wise or else your tracks are just not going to work, this will take up most of your time when making stuff. . .like 90% of your time. Writing tracks/songs are easy. Mixing and mastering them right is HARD. The same tracks that got Skrillex his fame wouldn't work today sound wise - if you can find an old version of the sprites song that got Skrillex famous you can notice that the sound design on that song is...pretty bad You can't do that nowdays, there are too many people trying to do the same thing, which means you have to make your stuff the top of the top.
3)one thing you CAN do is do what Tommy Trash did: He created a HUGE presence online, had a blog a well followed facebook page, twitter, instagram etc etc, to go with his music (mash-ups at the time) targeted at a certain niche (the mash-up lovers crowd) and made it that way.
To be completely honest with you "Musical experience" as one poster misguidedly asked you for, is not necessary. This is coming from someone who has his degree in Music (I Specialized in Piano Performance, Classical of course) it helps but you can learn the basics on you tube and be fine. Deadmau5 had NO musical training and is pretty much one of the more successful if not THE most successful guys out there, but he based his music on great sound design in a time when that part of music was just getting started (the volume wars were raging pretty hard then)
[Yes Zedd is also a classically trained pianist but 1: he isn't as successful as Deadmau5 is and 2: most of his tracks are I IV V I Verse, Chorus, Verse type pop songs with vocalists now. . .which requires only the basics of music theory, but request the years of sound design knowledge to pull of. . .lucky for him he got in at a point where the labels were doing that for him from the start, same with Skrillex and to some extent Mau5]
Basically all I'm saying is, it will take time, unless you get lucky, but in case you don't you need to be able to have a steady income that supports you until your big break this is true pretty much for getting into ANY form of entertainment, Take Peter Dinklage for example(Tyrion in Game of Thrones), the dude went to an acting college, only to work data entry in new york in his dilapidated, cold studio apartment for EIGHT YEARS before he got a gig that led him to his "big break" a couple of years later(in his late 30's/early 40's!).
A lot of people think that these people just all of a sudden make it and just had it handed to them, without realizing that they were just regular guys trying to make it before actually getting there, some have to live in shitty apartments doing crappy jobs, while others (i.e. J-law and possibly ever female actress ever) had to Ride the cock Carousel of producers, managers, directors etc etc + be hot and beautiful to get where they are.
The silver lining though is:
1) You're already red pill and you know that as a man, your SMV goes up with your age (I guess until 60 or so haha. . .but then, Jack Nicholson) so you can be patient and enjoy your journey as opposed to a woman trying to enter the industry who doesn't want to ride the right cocks/lose enough weight/too old (30's) who's chances to make it become very slim as they get older
2)As long as you have a job, you can support yourself, and as you embark as your journey you can STILL get laid like a rock star if you play your cards right
3)You ALREADY know what you want to do with your life! 90% of guys, even many here don't have that mission, that purpose yet. That is extremely attractive to women as well.
So yeah, just don't give up which ever route you take, and make sure you enjoy the ride.
Quote: (05-17-2015 10:24 AM)Lochte Wrote:
Not trying to be a naysayer, but I honestly havent met anyone who has really "made it" financially, no matter how big they got.
I have, I've met three people who have "made it" in the industry and talk to them sometimes (very rarely - like only when they're gonna be in town but yeah)
They all travel the world doing their gigs, they all have made songs that have pretty much bought them houses etc
This comment doesn't contribute to the thread in the slightest it would be either to just stay silent and read if you haven't had the experience to back up your words yet. Stop arguing for your limitations.
What’s up man! Hishashiburi! How’s Tokyo? By any chance is this your site?
http://www.tokyonightowl.com/djing-in-to...-get-paid/
Thought it might be but if not, you should hook up with this guy.
As for sounding professional, that’s part of my motivation to do this as when I’ve tried doing this as an afterthought (after work and 2nd priority), I have only been able to capture ideas without the energy and time to really hone in on the minor details that are needed to polish up the tracks to a better level. Hell, I think anybody here who writes and also has a day job that it’s hard enough just to find time to create, much less polish them up so this weekend has been good for me to really dial in on all the settings, equipment setup, etc needed to be efficient in producing good stuff. (ex. Having templates in Ableton that have side-chain compression with drum racks, with 128 samples for each kick, snare, hi hat, ready to tweak and tune depending on the song. Also having an EQ8 with high pass filter on NON-kick and Non-bass tracks and vice versa low pass filter for vocals and guitars to clean up sonic space for low end frequencies and a limiter on the master) Just having all that shit ready and set up shaves 15 min to 30 min off my workflow as opposed to before where I’d actually do it every time I sat down to write anything. But anyways, continuing on..
As for happening overnight, again, relating to my first paragraph in this post, I don’t expect anything to happen overnight because it’s happening right now. The fact that I’m even having this conversation with you and everybody else on this thread is more enjoyment at least means my brain is involved in music vs say, watching TV or bs news. Now, am I against getting better gigs, getting paid and getting laid, of course not, but I’m not expecting it nor am I basing my happiness on it, does that make sense?
As for the label, I also know that’s not guaranteed but again, I’m not RELYING ON THAT FOR MY HAPPINESS. Many years ago, I actually saved up money and took a trip to Cannes in South France for the MIDEM music conference where you can network with all the players in the international music industry and ya know what? For all the time I spent working to save up the money and even the time spent being there, I could’ve probably written 10-20 songs. So fuck it, I’ll email out my stuff because it’s the best way to leverage my time but again, if it happens, it happens, if not, then oh well. I don’t need a label to sign me for validation.
Now the big question is obviously money, how to survive and eat haha. That is the part I’ve been seriously considering and how my lifestyle would be affected. And that’s still the part I don’t have an answer for but I’m happy that at least I’m even considering it vs it not even being a thought at all.
As for NY and LA, I only mentioned NY because I’m a daygamer and NY has better logistics for that along with more international chicks. LA, you gotta fucking drive everywhere and as I mentioned in the LA thread, a lot of hot chicks don’t go walking around LA as much which sucks ass for daygamers so I’ve been considering areas outside of Manhattan where I could be maybe a 30 min subway ride into town. Man, I’d love to be in Tokyo but I don’t have that option right now but I admire, envy and respect your lifestyle decisions as that’s the way to roll. As for LA, I haven’t really put myself out there (yet) because again, my mindset hasn’t been 100% focused. My hometown is San Francisco and I def put 100% years back and back then, I didn’t know shit about “business” and naively thought SF had contacts, but really it doesn’t unless you’re making a fucking iPhone app. But again, “making it” is subjective because freedom to write whatever I want on my own terms could be interpreted as “making it”
Finally, while me and you have discussed producing EDM tracks/DJ-ing, I also want to do other styles of music. I’ve played in indie rock bands, metal bands as well as jammed with hip hop djs/break-dancers so my endeavors aren’t all tied to the EDM world so I’d have to set up different marketing for each project. Luckily, Soundcloud/Gmail/Facebook/etc are free haha so it’s not that big a deal.
Quote: (05-17-2015 11:02 AM)iknowexactly Wrote:
I think most artists do an inadequate self-assessment. I think there are more areas relevant than people think about.
1) What is your level of talent, and the talent of those you can get to collaborate with you?
These are two different things. I am unknown and over 50, talented young musicians don't want to have anything to do with me. However, they listen to my songs and tend to give up songwriting when they hear mine, like I gave up practicing scales when hearing someone like Eddie Van Halen.
2) What other competing talents do you have?
If you can make 5x as much per hour doing something else as you can playing covers which you do not want to do, how do you view that?
3) How low are you willing to go?
Many of my peers who were good musicians when I was about 30 were living off girlfriends. If you're attractive enough, have good enough game, you can do that. Do you want to? By the way, two of them are dead from heroin use related disease.
4) Would you do it for free?
I was sort of mad at music while I was in grad school. I almost deliberately didn't play for about three years. But I found songs just came out of me. If you are an artist, you CAN'T NOT do it.
Your talent decides for you.
5) I think if you are willing to , or forced internally to do it for free, then you should think about doing it for money.
Then you come to the "sales funnel" mentioned above which is what I am learning now. I'll probably never make significant money from making music.
I've heard a supposedly Middle Eastern saying to the effect of "Go three days without food, if then you prefer music to food, be a musician."
==
Music is the most important thing in life to me, but I don't think seriously about making money from it , because that's not the purpose of music. The cost of production is near zero now because of computers and good Chinese microphones and instruments, unless you want big band sounds.
I saw Sting quoted as saying " The purpose of music is to make people happy." Sounds reasonable to me. So I believe I should use my talent to the extent it exists and benefit people.
There was an old blues guy, Eddie Kirkland in a college town I lived in-- for all I know he is still out there.
He made very little money but he got to play in Sweden, overseas, had adventures-- you can't buy that with money. Being a paying tourist is a different universe.
But the biggest thing I loved was the quote from a drummer I knew that went with him to Europe--
Eddie was talking about his motivation in music, and he said "I'll play for ONE MAN, I'll play to make ONE MAN happy." He was willing to play a gig with ONE PERSON there.
This man had already reached sainthood, there was nothing further for him to do. He had transcended money. He drove some ancient V8 America car and I would see him sleeping in it after gigs. It had, bizarrely, a TV antenna on the roof. I think he had reached the Tolle state you describe. He WAS what he had decided to be.
===============
It was an important thing for me, was to separate making money from music.
Because paradoxically, when I play exactly what I want, people like it more than whenever I played covers.
I also am good at academics, and it is MUCH easier for me to make money in my profession, enough to travel without working ( super low budget style) than in any kind of music.
Very, very few people have the kind of lottery winning elements in their background that lead to a good living in music. Here are some examples:
Genesis for example, were going to an exclusive school, were really working hard on it together with strong cooperation before the were even 22, with a classically trained keyboardist. they came out with a very respectable progressive rock album before any of them were 23 I believe.
I just read Duff McKagen's account of being in Guns n' Roses, he was from a poor family, but was always working on music stuff from the time he was very young, and ended up in LA with the freakishly talented Axl Rose. Their band was the #1 priority in ALL their lives. They had practice TWICE A DAY.
Brian Transeau (BT) , a seminal electronic musician was classically trained as a child and obviously very talented.
I like the focusing on the spiritual aspect of it, I played my first gig at a high school dance at 17, nothing matches the excitement of writing songs and performing. I have a slight talent, nothing amazing, can't read well, no perfect pitch, can't shred.
But the important thing to me is that even though my talent is small, music is still the most important thing to me in life, the thing that makes me the happiest.
I can answer your whole post with your last comment .
“But the important thing to me is that even though my talent is small, music is still the most important thing to me in life, the thing that makes me the happiest.”
Although I would only disagree that your talent isn’t small, it’s you and it’s real.
Oh, one more answer to your question #4, would I do it for free? Yes, because it’s who I am. It’s like asking would you be human for free? Would you have sex with a hot ass girl for free? Would you fall in love for free? Okay, sorry, getting too philosophical but just being honest.
Based on that answer, then questions #1, 2 and 3 aren’t relevant because as long as I feel it and am real about it, then level of talent is perfect, don’t need to have any competing talents because I’m only competing against myself and there is no going low as long as I’m being honest. Also wanna apologize if my cover comment came off sounding negative. From a marketing standpoint in today’s technology economy, that is a great cost effective way to get your name out there but it just doesn’t inspire me personally but respect to those who can do covers well. I might just suck at covers so maybe that’s why I choose not to do them.
Quote: (05-17-2015 09:49 PM)Lochte Wrote:
^I know guys who bought houses off music too, at age 30, and the houses are worth 200k tops. Not saying that's the limit, but it's certainly at the upper end of the curve.
I spent 3 years actually working in the music industry, and whil it was at a rock station, not a pop station, so that definitely doesnt help financially, but its still relatively indicative of the music industry.
And its pretty helpful considering youre listing off people like Skrillex and Zedd but its not as if you know them personally lol
Thanks for the heads up! Now, if those guys could live abroad in some of the areas that are popular with RVFers, that might be a nice house close to the action but if it’s anywhere in CA or NY, yeah, that’s not gonna buy much if anything at all.
Quote: (05-17-2015 11:23 AM)Lochte Wrote:
http://celebrityglory.com/danny-brown-ne...nt-rapper/
http://www.spin.com/2012/01/danny-brown-...rap-album/
Danny Brown made 80,000 the year he dropped XXX, which was named #1 rap album by Spin, and #8 of the past 5 years by Complex magazine. Incredibly talented, and still barely out earning the average joe
Yeah, again from a biz perspective, I don’t think album sales are the way to earn much these days unless you’re Beyonce or Taylor Swift. Live music/DJ is where it’s at because that’s something that technology can’t leverage. But album sales are great advertisement tools.
Quote: (05-17-2015 10:56 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:
I admire your tenacity. I have a soft spot in my heart for musicians and the creative process. I'm going to give some tough love, so be prepared:
Here's my advice: have a plan B. A solid plan B. 99.5% of all people in your position will fail. The industry is a cruel beast.
With that said, you need a solid plan A and from your posts you haven't really defined what it is you WANT to do. You're wallowing between many different roles and have no clear direction. So you don't like doing business stuff or engineering. That's fine, however you will need a network of people who are competent enough to fill those various roles you don't like. Is your personal and professional network healthy enough to freelance out those roles to people?
Secondly, you've stated a distaste for the business end of the creative process. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but any two bit creative individual can write and record a song (and a lot do). It takes a real genius to SELL your product to the correct gate keepers who will be the ones who make you money. This is a real hustle in and of itself. Unfortunately this is what will make or break any creative individual even those who make modest lifestyles.
And finally, what about your lifestyle? Are you comfortable living a meager existence well into your 30s or 40s? That means living in a rough part of town with room mates well after your youth has left you.
The music industry is centered in Los Angeles with a small smattering in NYC. If you want your odds of success increasing significantly you'll need to be in Los Angeles which means you'll be driving a used car. This will be a significant expense as you'll need wheels to get to gigs.
Seriously think about what that means. It's easy when you're in your 20s, but my preferences for living has changed drastically from my early to mid 20s.
It will start getting exponentially harder to get young women as you age. Living the life of a starving artist will ruin your face and body. Obviously careful eating and living can prevent this, but most artists I know are drinkers, smokers, and stay up way too late. This lifestyle will tax your body and your hot rocker bode will give way to a nasty appearance. Game will obviously mitigate this, but it will get harder to game women outside of your age group.
And to close, you shot yourself in the foot when you quit your first band because you weren't getting enough pussy. That is by far one of the dumbest reasons to quit anything. Shame on you!
Yoko did the Beatles in. Don't commit the cardinal sin of letting a woman ruin a band (ps you already did).
Women, money, and fame are rewards for success. When you make your career centered on rewards you will not only not get those rewards, you will fail miserably and be bitter because of it.
Make the hard work your passion and the rewards will come and be welcomed.
What’s up Beast, thanks for your “tough love” as well haha. I’m going to respond to your post by referencing what I said in the beginning of this post. Appreciating NOW. Failure is not an option for me if I’m appreciating NOW and being myself NOW and loving what I’m doing NOW. If I’m basing my success on monetary value in the FUTURE or amount of girls I sleep with from music IN THE FUTURE, then I’m not really enjoying NOW but working my ass off for a goal that is in the FUTURE so that is not the case with me. When I was younger, yes, I admit it and to a certain extent, it was validation as well. But now, I’m past that. I’m not naïve and wanting to be on the cover of any magazine or be on the radio (which as some of you in the industry probably know,labels pay promoters and publicists with connections to those magazines/radio stations for that) It’s about just doing what I love and I actually think that will make me healthier, happier and live longer.
As for your comment “Secondly, you've stated a distaste for the business end of the creative process. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but any two bit creative individual can write and record a song (and a lot do). It takes a real genius to SELL your product to the correct gate keepers who will be the ones who make you money. This is a real hustle in and of itself. Unfortunately this is what will make or break any creative individual even those who make modest lifestyles.”
I respect your right to have an opinion but again, that is not my definition of success. Who you consider a two bit creative individual is someone who is actually doing what they love making the world a better place. It’s all perspective brother. I can put on my “business” goggles and say, “the market is saturated” and from a “supply and demand standpoint, this is not a market to enter” etc etc But I’m not playing at that level. I’m happy that it’s easier for ppl to create music. Shit, wasn’t Hitler a painter? Supposed they had Instragram back in the day and Hitler was able to post his shit on Instagram and Facebook and was able to pursue his artistic side so he never turned out the way he did? So the fact that there are more ppl creating now is a beautiful thing.
As for gate-keepers, I’ve got a story for you. I have a good friend who used to always find the coolest obscure bands from Spain, UK, etc and would tell me and a mutual friend. He was a shy guy, did NOT dress cool, just a normal dude, dare I say, that some would even call a nerd, actually not even that because a nerd could even be considered cool in the right circles. He was just “normal” Well, this mutual friend, who was a cute chick, had many cute friends who knew other ppl in hip SF circles who were in the “scene”, dressed hip, went to the right parties, knew the right DJs, etc. And on numerous times, a song or band that my "normal" friend had discovered made its way to this "cool kid scene" that pretty soon, the djs were even playing which then their followers would now listen to (because it was cool) when it all initially came from my "normal" friend. Hell, even the music director of the biggest station in SF was one of the 2nd or 3rd tier followers (for lack of a better term) And I would have to say that maybe 50-90% of the whole scene (I’m being generous with the 50) were just followers, not necessarily meaning bad, but not original either but these kids were the influencers for the rest of the crowd (such as this music director who basically was Clear Channel’s bitch as were all of the major radio stations) which would then trickle down to regular ppl. So I share this with you to make a point that if you think a genius is one who has to work at this level mindset of ppl for approval, then I am and will always be a retard and never, ever want to be a genius. I'd much rather be in the one who has genuine love for a song and not part of any "scene" pscyhcology which as Seth Godin somewhat covered in his book Tribes.
As for getting younger women the older I get, you have a point but I no longer live the stereotypical musician lifestyle. Yes, I’ve done LSD, acid, all the usual suspects and then some but I now eat healthy and rely on meditation/creating music to reach those areas in my mind that I used to rely on drugs for. I actually relate to younger ppl easier when I’m playing music vs working in an office where I do feel old. I’m no Brad Pitt, but my last 3 girlfriends have been 8-13 years younger than me as I’ve found girls close to 30 and above are looking for marriage from guys and having a “stable job/lifestyle” is part of that. Nothing wrong with that but that’s not me. Ironically, I actually asked my ex to marry me so it’s not like I don’t want to commit. I’m just picky about who I want to be with now that I have a better idea of who I am and what I want out of life.
Lastly for your comment
“And to close, you shot yourself in the foot when you quit your first band because you weren't getting enough pussy. That is by far one of the dumbest reasons to quit anything. Shame on you!
Yoko did the Beatles in. Don't commit the cardinal sin of letting a woman ruin a band (ps you already did).”
Haha, good point man. It’s actually more complicated than that (band members were broke and also going to school) so it wasn’t just pussy haha but not going to deny it wasn’t a reason either. I agree with you that a woman should NEVER be the main point of a man’s life, but let’s not pretend that it’s also not important. It’s all balance. I don’t think I should choose one or the other. I think they can actually co-exist and if I found the right girl, I would think she even inspires that in me. And if not, well, then there’s nothing wrong with having fun.
Anyways, thanks again for sharing bro.
Quote: (05-17-2015 10:50 PM)la_mode Wrote:
Whether it's trance, house, euro, dubstep, etc, producing quality EDM is more complex than people think.
Agreed. What's funny is I come from a live band recording background and the amount of engineering knowledge that even a new EDM producer is way more than majority of live musicians. (ex. frequency range of kick drum. Most edm producers know that kinda of shit where most drummers will be "wtf?") but it's two different worlds. Live music is very much "come into our world and watch us" vs DJs are "come into our world but you don't have to watch us, just enjoy yourself dancing/picking up chicks/socialize with ppl" So because of that, live bands aren't concerned about the production aspect as much as the performance aspect since that's why ppl would go watch a band.
Quote: (05-17-2015 10:24 AM)Lochte Wrote:
Not trying to be a naysayer, but I honestly havent met anyone who has really "made it" financially, no matter how big they got.
That being said, a lot of people found it fairly fulfilling to do music
I think this post was the best so far in it’s honesty. Shouldn’t do music for financial reasons. But you will feel fulfilled. Thanks man