Built a career in Marketing through my twenties, all the while going to university in the evening. I will have my BA in English in a year and I will have extra time to spend during my senior year that I want to take Russian classes at my local cc. My ultimate plan is to move to Kiev within a year after graduating, so I'll have a good two years of preparation for finances and Russian after college as well as building career prospects for Ukraine. I'll most likely start out by teaching English regardless.

Looking for some experiences/opinions from guys who are also interested in living in Kiev or just expatriating in general. If you know this is what you want how would you prepare? How long did it take you to really settle into your new life and how do you feel about it today?

I'm confused. Your work experience is in marketing but you're doing a degree in English? If you have marketing skills, you can channel that into an online income that would far exceed the peanuts you would earn teaching ESL in Ukraine.

And why Kiev? Unless you're rolling in dough, there are some better 2nd tier options in Ukraine.

I have lived in Kiev last summer for 3 months. Actually that was more than enough. Could I live there permanently? NO. Shitty food, non existant service mentality and quite depressing wheather from Oct-March. Also without decent money there is no fun at all in Kiev.

You mentioned you plan to teach English - this means you will be paid in UAH. Because of currency devaluation life becomes more expensive right now unless you earn USD or EUR.

I would estimate a English teacher will earn equivalant to around 800-1000 USD /month, maybe even less. Thats nothing in Kiev. And ukrainian girls won't be too impressed as well.

Quote: (05-06-2014 06:18 AM)Thailand_Veteran Wrote:  

I have lived in Kiev last summer for 3 months. Actually that was more than enough. Could I live there permanently? NO. Shitty food, non existant service mentality and quite depressing wheather from Oct-March. Also without decent money there is no fun at all in Kiev.

You mentioned you plan to teach English - this means you will be paid in UAH. Because of currency devaluation life becomes more expensive right now unless you earn USD or EUR.

I would estimate a English teacher will earn equivalant to around 800-1000 USD /month, maybe even less. Thats nothing in Kiev. And ukrainian girls won't be too impressed as well.

I would add the girls are definitely seeming more desperate and that should only increase in time but we are talking about mainly 6, 7's and the occasional 8 especially if she is older. Most of the real young hotties (8 & 9's) are still doing OK since they usually have rich BF's to take of care of them and might be spending more time outside of the country now due to the situation.

ThailandVeteran, you've stoked my curiosity...

How much money would you need to live 'well' in kiev? Would $2K a month cut it? As dramatically as the currency has crashed, I would have thought Kiev is well on it's way to becoming a budget locale.( Provided you're earning in $ or Euros).

Also, shit food is a frequent complaint about Ukraine. Does this apply mainly to restaurants or are the groceries bad quality too?
I'm health conscientious and so I mainly cook anyways. Bad restaurants I can deal with but rotten produce/meat is kind of a deal breaker.

Maybe other guys can chime in on this important topic too. As fine as the talent in Ukraine may be, it hardly seems worth sacrificing one's health.

A small unimpressive apartment in the city center will run you $50 a day minimum, if you can find one that cheap. Prices may have come down on AirbnB in light of current events. If you're going on dates, expect to pay regular western prices for most restaurants in Kiev. $2k a month will be *tight*.

If you have language skills and are willing to live on the outskirts, better deals can be had ($300 per month), but I can't speak to the safety of such a plan.

The food is not great, but it's fine.

The women are heavenly.

Quote: (05-06-2014 11:55 PM)Courage Reborn Wrote:  

A small unimpressive apartment in the city center will run you $50 a day minimum, if you can find one that cheap. Prices may have come down on AirbnB in light of current events.

But I assume you can get apartments much cheaper on a long-term basis, right? You don't pay daily rates when you set up like a local.

^This is what I meant, what is the COL if you integrate yourself as a local? I was fooling around on expatistan and Kiev looks very cheap for long term living (cheaper than Prague). Any forum members living there at the moment?

Quote: (05-06-2014 08:23 PM)SpecialEd Wrote:  

ThailandVeteran, you've stoked my curiosity...

How much money would you need to live 'well' in kiev? Would $2K a month cut it? As dramatically as the currency has crashed, I would have thought Kiev is well on it's way to becoming a budget locale.( Provided you're earning in $ or Euros).

IMO Kiev will never be a budget destination. Your biggest expenditure will be housing. You can either live in a shitty apartment ukrainian style far from city centre. Even this will cost you 200-300USD. Or you can rent a renovated, western standard flat - most of them are located in centre. Those are priced in foreign currency anyway, so devaluation of UAH won't help. A studio/1 bed should cost 800-1.5k USD/month longterm.

Nightlife and going to dates won't be cheap either. However, now compared to last year you might spend a little less. I was always wondering how ordinary ukrainians can afford going out - In fact most of them can't. Girls rely on free entry and guys buying them drinks.

CR is right - 2k will be really tight and no fun at all.

Quote: (05-06-2014 08:23 PM)SpecialEd Wrote:  

Also, shit food is a frequent complaint about Ukraine. Does this apply mainly to restaurants or are the groceries bad quality too?
I'm health conscientious and so I mainly cook anyways. Bad restaurants I can deal with but rotten produce/meat is kind of a deal breaker.

It will take you a while to find some good places for groceries. The supermarkets on krechatik are a desaster. I know a few residents, who always bring meat back from Western Europe. You can get along though - just don't expect fine dining. To stay healthy you can find sushi restaurants everywhere.

BTW in case you like to work out. Gym membership also expensive, minimum 100 USD/month.

On budget, Lviv or Southern UA ( except Odessa) should be better alternatives.

Kiev is in for a long stretch of hard times no matter what happens.

You'd be better off in Bulgaria or Romania, where you can live cheaply and more securely. Georgia if you really wanted the FSU vibe.

Nobody wants to teach English in Ukraine now, the UAH is so low that you will be making peanuts, many students won't be able to afford to pay you in USD

I wouldn't live in any big Ukrainian city on less than 3k. I also suspect a wave of anti Foreign ism in a few years. The east-south hates us for causing the coup. And the West Ukraine will for not doing enough. Something you need to know about Ukrainians..they blame everyone else for their problems.They aren't going to get desperate..they will get nationalistic.
Even in the so called desperate days 1996-1998,it was the older single moms.A 20-26 yr old only cares about if she can afford newest Iphone and perfume. If she can't than she will expect it from you. An English teacher isn't a good catch..never was. The minute they hear teacher they think you make 250 dollars a month.

Quote: (05-07-2014 07:48 AM)Thailand_Veteran Wrote:  

Quote: (05-06-2014 08:23 PM)SpecialEd Wrote:  

ThailandVeteran, you've stoked my curiosity...

How much money would you need to live 'well' in kiev? Would $2K a month cut it? As dramatically as the currency has crashed, I would have thought Kiev is well on it's way to becoming a budget locale.( Provided you're earning in $ or Euros).

IMO Kiev will never be a budget destination. Your biggest expenditure will be housing. You can either live in a shitty apartment ukrainian style far from city centre. Even this will cost you 200-300USD. Or you can rent a renovated, western standard flat - most of them are located in centre. Those are priced in foreign currency anyway, so devaluation of UAH won't help. A studio/1 bed should cost 800-1.5k USD/month longterm.

Nightlife and going to dates won't be cheap either. However, now compared to last year you might spend a little less. I was always wondering how ordinary ukrainians can afford going out - In fact most of them can't. Girls rely on free entry and guys buying them drinks.

CR is right - 2k will be really tight and no fun at all.

Quote: (05-06-2014 08:23 PM)SpecialEd Wrote:  

Also, shit food is a frequent complaint about Ukraine. Does this apply mainly to restaurants or are the groceries bad quality too?
I'm health conscientious and so I mainly cook anyways. Bad restaurants I can deal with but rotten produce/meat is kind of a deal breaker.

It will take you a while to find some good places for groceries. The supermarkets on krechatik are a desaster. I know a few residents, who always bring meat back from Western Europe. You can get along though - just don't expect fine dining. To stay healthy you can find sushi restaurants everywhere.

BTW in case you like to work out. Gym membership also expensive, minimum 100 USD/month.

On budget, Lviv or Southern UA ( except Odessa) should be better alternatives.

He will be captured as a spy in Southern Russia..that area is going to be chaotic since it is part of Putin's "NEW RUSSIA"

Quote: (05-06-2014 08:23 PM)SpecialEd Wrote:  

Also, shit food is a frequent complaint about Ukraine. Does this apply mainly to restaurants or are the groceries bad quality too?
I'm health conscientious and so I mainly cook anyways. Bad restaurants I can deal with but rotten produce/meat is kind of a deal breaker.

You can buy quality imported produce and dairy in MegaMarket, but the prices will be very high - almost at London levels. Local produce is usually very low quality compared to what you will find in Central Europe and the Baltics.

Russia is no better for fresh produce - actually worse in some cases.


Also, Kiev isn't a great place to learn Russian because a lot them don't speak it... Around half of them speak Surzhyk, which is a mix of Ukrainian and Russian. It's considered very crude in the two capitals and most of European Russia. I would put the number of people who speak that way at around half in Kiev.

Southern/Eastern cities like Odessa are fine grammar-wise, although you will pick up a Southern accent (easily correctible in a few weeks with a good phonetics course). The accent in Crimea is much more neutral.

If you're planning on teaching English, you would be better off going to one of the mineral/oil-rich second-tier Russian cities like Ekaterinburg or Krasnodar. In those cities the locals are cashed up and will be able to pay a premium for a native English teacher.

^The locals may be cashed up but the local prices match that. 2nd tier Russia is more expensive than 1st tier EE cities within the EU(with a far superior quality of life) like Prague.

I guess living in the FSU is a bad idea under any rubric. You're sacrificing everything for subjectively better looking women. The question is...is it worth it?

Quote: (05-07-2014 01:38 PM)SpecialEd Wrote:  

^The locals may be cashed up but the local prices match that. 2nd tier Russia is more expensive than 1st tier EE cities within the EU(with a far superior quality of life) like Prague.

I guess living in the FSU is a bad idea under any rubric. You're sacrificing everything for subjectively better looking women. The question is...is it worth it?

If the guy doesn't have any marketable skills other than English teaching, he can probably live just as well in 2nd-tier Russian cities as in Central Europe. There isn't much of a market for English teachers in the EU and being a non-EU citizen will put him at a strong disadvantage due to work permit restrictions. It's infinitely easier to employ a Brit in those countries than an American.

In Russia, resourceful guys can find clients willing to pay $50/hour and that allows them to live relatively well in the smaller, second-tier cities.

In addition, the only place in the EU that he could study Russian in would be the Baltics, and the wages there are low enough to make a lot of Baltic Russians move to St. Petersburg.

What is the Russian-language situation now? I have asked this on previous threads but it seems pertinent here. If you were in Kiev, would you get beaten up for speaking Russian?* In Lviv, traditionally more nationalistic, would you get hanged?! Obviously that's an exaggeration, but you understand my point. Especially since the West has (fairly) been blamed for causing all the problems, I'm fairly certain that in the South and East they would despise Westerners.

I am interested in living in Tallinn as some friends have semi-permanent moved there (due to fantastic IT services and start-up options), where Estonian (obviously) and Russian are spoken so I don't see much purpose in learning Ukrainian. Though I think Ukrainian and Russian are as close as Portuguese and Spanish (according to some sources), it still seems better to learn Russian as you have more places where the language is useful.

* DaveR, I know you mentioned that hybrid dialect, but I'm sure many 'Kievans' speak Russian or Ukrainian well enough for people to be able to choose one or the other to learn.

TESOL is a crap job anywhere but I'll grant you the EU is the worst of the lot. I am Brit/American dual national and even given that, I pretty much starved when I was teaching in EE.

My point, in the wisdom of hindsight, is a guy shouldn't move anywhere with teaching ESL as his only skillet, particularly not Russia where it is expensive and it could take a good while to build that clientele willing to pay $50+ an hour.

Quote: (05-07-2014 04:34 PM)Teedub Wrote:  

What is the Russian-language situation now? I have asked this on previous threads but it seems pertinent here. If you were in Kiev, would you get beaten up for speaking Russian?* In Lviv, traditionally more nationalistic, would you get hanged?! Obviously that's an exaggeration, but you understand my point. Especially since the West has (fairly) been blamed for causing all the problems, I'm fairly certain that in the South and East they would despise Westerners.

I am interested in living in Tallinn as some friends have semi-permanent moved there (due to fantastic IT services and start-up options), where Estonian (obviously) and Russian are spoken so I don't see much purpose in learning Ukrainian. Though I think Ukrainian and Russian are as close as Portuguese and Spanish (according to some sources), it still seems better to learn Russian as you have more places where the language is useful.

* DaveR, I know you mentioned that hybrid dialect, but I'm sure many 'Kievans' speak Russian or Ukrainian well enough for people to be able to choose one or the other to learn.

Lots of English speakers in Tallinn, so you wouldn't have any problems communicating in the meantime. I've been thinking about making a move there myself. The main negatives are that the stags give everyone a bad reputation and that the quality (of pussy) isn't as high as in St. Petersburg (but still high enough to keep any guy satisfied). On the other hand, quality of life in Tallinn wins hands-down in every measure.

In Kiev they *think* they speak Russian, but it's very common to hear them switch between the languages or for one person to speak Ukrainian and the other to reply in Russian, so they often mix the two without being aware of it. Even if they are aware of the differences, they won't correct any Ukrainian that you pick up. Just about everyone told me that if I learnt Russian, I would understand Ukrainian too - but it's completely different; probably to the same level as Spanish and French. I learnt a lot of words, constructions, phrases, etc. in Kiev that were seen as undesirable in St. Petersburg, and it took a long time to 'forget' them.

On the balance, I think Estonia is the better of the two places for learning Russian. The Estonian accent is very easy to pick, and because the languages are completely different, there is no chance of mistaking Estonian signs for Russian ones. In the Baltics, the native speakers speak clean Russian and are usually very happy to meet a foreigner who is learning their language, so it's a definite DHV. The main obstacle is finding a group of Russian friends, but that should only take a few weeks.

Cheers for that mate. Is Ukrainian and Russian quality of life that bad, compared to EU countries then? Even in St.P?

Could you clarify the getting beaten up situation too please? As thinking about Lviv for a month visit quite soon. In Estonia, would it be seen as bad to be speaking Russian as a Brit as opposed to Estonian? Like you chose the 'cultural imperialist' language as opposed to the local one?

That's the thing, quality of girls is only one factor in choosing a city to live in for me. My Latvian friend (who is Soviet/Russian technically) says St Petersburg even gets him drooling at the quality of the women haha, but he never mentioned the severe drop in living standards you imply. Roosh seems to be able to handle living in the most industrial shithole type of places, I don't think I'd be able to.

That said, a family friend just came back from a business trip to Novosibirsk and said it was absolutely beautiful and that they'd go back in a heartbeat. So, mixed messages basically!

Quote: (05-07-2014 04:34 PM)Teedub Wrote:  

What is the Russian-language situation now? I have asked this on previous threads but it seems pertinent here. If you were in Kiev, would you get beaten up for speaking Russian?* In Lviv, traditionally more nationalistic, would you get hanged?! Obviously that's an exaggeration, but you understand my point. Especially since the West has (fairly) been blamed for causing all the problems, I'm fairly certain that in the South and East they would despise Westerners.

I haven't spent a lot of time in L'viv, but have heard occasional reports of locals being against speaking Russian and sometimes insisting on speaking broken English instead. That was before Euromaidan, so I imagine it would be worse now.

The South/East would be dangerous in general right now, but I don't think foreigners would face any more negativity than the locals.

Ukrainian is practically useless outside of Ukraine. The 'Ukrainians' that you may notice in the demographic breakdown of Russia, Belarus, Estonia, Latvia, etc. are Russian speakers. They're recorded as Ukrainians because in 1991 they were registered in the Ukrainian SSR, so became Ukrainian citizens.

So Russian is primarily the best language to get to grips with then it appears.

Could you talk some more on the living standard and girl standard in St. Petersburg?

Oh, I am with you that I HATE stag do's. My friends think I'm weird but they don't understand as they think England is the best country ever. My more 'international' friends understand exactly what I mean! I'll probably be asked to go on one within the next 5 years and I'm tempted to refuse, just to prove a point. Though I doubt they'd understand!

Yes, Russian is somewhat of a lingua franca in Latvia and Estonia. Government departments and companies usually publish everything in Russian and Latvian or Estonian. In Estonia, English is becoming more common - probably half of the material you will see in English as well as the other two languages.

Menus in restaurants are usually trilingual.

Quote: (05-07-2014 05:21 PM)Teedub Wrote:  

Is Ukrainian and Russian quality of life that bad, compared to EU countries then? Even in St.P?

A lot of the quality of life aspects aren't noticeable for the first couple of months. It's mainly long-term that they start to take their toll. For example, St. Petersburg:
- municipal cold water is not potable; hot water is usually coloured and has a chemical smell.
- everything imported sits at Customs for 2-3 weeks, so it's difficult to find fresh produce
- local dairy and produce is very low quality.
- the snow turns grey/brown/black within a few hours and it covers everything from the knees down. In Winter you'll constantly be scraping snow-dirt off your shoes.
- public transport in St. Petersburg and Kiev isn't great. The metro is deep (long time on escalators) and the stations are too far apart. Moscow's metro is much better.
- traffic is very heavy so it takes a long time to get around, and once you get there, parking is becoming a huge issue (in Moscow it's practically impossible to park anywhere).
- the central area is very polluted, so living there long-term may give respiratory and eye problems.

If you have a 10k Euro monthly spend, you could live in a new building (with water filters) on Krestovsky island (where the air is fresh), but you would still face 1-hour commutes to get anywhere. There is also no way around the low-quality produce. The top restaurants and delis in St. Petersburg can't match what you can buy at any supermarket in the EU.

In contrast, living in the centre of Tallinn gives you a 10 minute commute by foot, the food and water is clean and fresh and there is no pollution. So in general, Russian cities are a lot less comfortable to live in and will wear you down over time. Somewhat like living in London and dealing with the daily grind, but on a more extreme scale.

Kiev is somewhere between Tallinn and St. Petersburg - the pollution isn't as bad, produce is somewhat better (both local and imported), and there is less traffic.
I think L'viv would be quite comfortable to live in, but there aren't many business opportunities and it isn't a great place to study Russian.

After saying all of that, I tried moving to Riga twice and both times returned after 4-5 months. I'm not sure if Tallinn will be different or not, but for about a year I've been thinking about trying it.

Quote: (05-07-2014 05:21 PM)Teedub Wrote:  

Could you clarify the getting beaten up situation too please? As thinking about Lviv for a month visit quite soon. In Estonia, would it be seen as bad to be speaking Russian as a Brit as opposed to Estonian? Like you chose the 'cultural imperialist' language as opposed to the local one?

In L'viv - just speak English first and then switch to Russian if they don't understand. They'll understand that you're a foreigner and won't expect you to know Ukrainian.

In Tallinn - I don't think there would be any problems, but after a few months you should be able to pick the Estonians from the Russians and speak English or Russian accordingly. I never had any problems there or in Riga.

Also, costs generally in St. Petersburg are about 1/3 higher than in Tallinn or Riga. Rents are about 50% more.

The best way I can describe the women:
In St. Petersburg, walking down the street is like watching a fashion show - hair, makeup, clothes, etc. are all perfect and very sexy.
In Tallinn, they're more like farmers' daughters. They have the same bodies, but they dress in more simple clothes. Somewhat like innocent village girls.

Without the clothes, they're the same.

Kiev is like St. Petersburg but instead of being like a fashion show, it's like a nightclub... they have no concept of what's inappropriate and basically dress to get themselves the most attention at all times.

DaveR, you're a bloody FSU database man! Good stuff.

The language situation in Ukraine is confusing and frustrating for us foreigners.

You could of-course stick to the eastern/southern parts where only Russian is spoken but the general consensus is that the western cities like Lviv are more livable.

What I'm about to say will undoubtedly offend some but it seems to me that the 'Ukrainian' language is a bit of an artificial construct.
Lviv is the epicenter of Ukrainian culture these days but until WWII, it was a Polish city and they spoke polish there. So where is this proud Ukrainian identity coming from?

And according to WhoIsShe, Poles can understand Ukrainian pretty well. It seems like a distant Polish dialect...

Having said that, Lviv would be a lovely city to live in, particularly for guys that are location independent(which im working on). And if you were to learn Ukrainian, as a foreigner, I'm sure you would have rock-star status.