[iknowexactly]

(05-07-2014 05:21 PM)Teedub Wrote:  

That said, a family friend just came back from a business trip to Novosibirsk and said it was absolutely beautiful and that they'd go back in a heartbeat. So, mixed messages basically!

Not trying to be irrationally negative, but when someone says biz trip I wonder if it was 4 star hotels 150+ per night paid for by their company.. how much he or his employer spent per day would be good info to judge why he liked it.

As one of my Filipina friends says, "Everyone is kind when you have money."

[Teedub]

(05-08-2014 10:43 PM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

(05-07-2014 05:21 PM)Teedub Wrote:  

That said, a family friend just came back from a business trip to Novosibirsk and said it was absolutely beautiful and that they'd go back in a heartbeat. So, mixed messages basically!

Not trying to be irrationally negative, but when someone says biz trip I wonder if it was 4 star hotels 150+ per night paid for by their company.. how much he or his employer spent per day would be good info to judge why he liked it.

As one of my Filipina friends says, "Everyone is kind when you have money."

It was a female family friend, who's middle aged... so it was indeed hotels and stuff. I say 'business trip', but she's an academic so not 'business' in the strictest sense.

I think she was expecting it to be scary and hostile, in accordance to Western propaganda, and she was surprised that it was welcoming and pleasant with nice architecture and so on.

[Moriarty]

Odessa is more livable than Lviv, reasons why:

Weather is better in Odessa
There are no supermarkets in centre of Lviv
The girls are hotter
Only one gym in centre of Lviv which is expensive
Lviv guys are quite primitive, hard to make friends there
Any hot girl who knows her worth has left Lviv
There is almost zero fast food in Lviv.
Odessa is a real cosmopolitan city, you are more accepted as a foreigner.
Odessa has money and sophistication
Odessa girls have fantastic asses, I have seen girls at the gym only doing lower body exercises.
In summer Lviv would be a boring place to be, they go to grandma's house.
If you speak Russian in Odessa you are not a second class citizen.
There is no body of water in Lviv
Odessa girls are not conservative like Lviv girls, Odessa is the city of sin.
There are girls from hot pussy cities like kherson and Nikolaev that come to study in Odessa
Atmosphere is better in Odessa, people are more friendly

Advantages of Lviv:

Close proximity to Polish border
University in the centre, you feel swamped by girls sometimes
Guys look worse than in Odessa, almost none are in shape.
Outside of summer nightlife can be fun.
Lviv is probably the safest place to be should civil war break out.
Odessa is awash with whores, gypsies, junkies, crack heads, and HIV - Lviv is safer

[DaveR]

(05-08-2014 10:38 PM)SpecialEd Wrote:  

Lol, was that question rhetorical? I guess that's another thing about Russia/Ukraine that makes me a bit lukewarm about the place: the FSU screw you over mentality. Everyone, the police, the women, the baker..is trying to squeeze you.

And there seems to be a level of materialism there that puts the U.S to shame. One of the things I really hate about Americans is the constant talking about money. It bores me to tears. But even in America, mobsters aren't glorified like they seem to be in Russia.

Real Russian culture is actually the opposite of that. What you see in the FSU is the result of the Soviet Union's economic collapse, which they're still recovering from.

In St. Petersburg I would say around 1/4 of 18-25 year old girls still have the FSU gold-digger mentality. Moscow is probably much the same except for the 9s being more materialistic (but they only want multi-millionaires). In the provincial cities, gold-digger mentality much more prevalent at all ages, and you'll still find marriage agencies there.

Online game from abroad (other than pipelining) is a bad idea, IMO. Doing it that way just exposes you to a lot of semi-pro whores (they're something like mistresses, except they usually have a number of guys paying them).

If a guy wants to find a Russian wife (which I think is a terrible idea, but I digress)... rather than paying for a whore's trip to Canada, it would be much more effective to take a holiday in Russia and pipeline as many as possible in their own environment.

[Moriarty]

Also foreign guys are seen of as stingy in FSU, locals guys have a live for the day attitude whereas western guys prefer to save their money.

Looks are not as important as in the west, Ukrainian girls often tell me "character" is more important. They are more interested in a generous fat Ukrainian guy, than the handsome foreigner type.

[SpecialEd]

(05-09-2014 10:59 AM)Moriarty Wrote:  

Any hot girl who knows her worth has left Lviv

So are there hot girls who don't know their value left behind?

[Moriarty]

(05-09-2014 08:52 PM)SpecialEd Wrote:  

[quote='Moriarty' pid='722219' dateline='1399651193']
Any hot girl who knows her worth has left Lviv

So are there hot girls who don't know their value left behind?
[/quote

All hot girls in Ukraine know their value, the annoying thing is that many do not see the value in foreigners

[DaveR]

(05-10-2014 05:04 AM)Moriarty Wrote:  

(05-09-2014 08:52 PM)SpecialEd Wrote:  

(05-09-2014 10:59 AM)Moriarty Wrote:  

Any hot girl who knows her worth has left Lviv

So are there hot girls who don't know their value left behind?

All hot girls in Ukraine know their value, the annoying thing is that many do not see the value in foreigners

I would say they they overestimate their own value. The number of times I've heard Ukrainian girls say that they're "the best"...

A good way to neg them is to say that Russian girls are more elegant (use шикарный) and French/Italian girls are more graceful (use изящный). You'll see their Cinderella complex crumble right in front of you.

[Moriarty]

Yeah, but to be honest i've heard much worse in other countries.

I love to neg the girls when they say "Ukrainian girls are the most beautiful", I say to them "well you are good, perhaps you scrape into the top ten", and "Ukrainian girls have a reputation in the west for being prostitutes and gold diggers"

[jimukr104]

(05-09-2014 10:59 AM)Moriarty Wrote:  

Odessa is more livable than Lviv, reasons why:

Weather is better in Odessa
There are no supermarkets in centre of Lviv
The girls are hotter
Only one gym in centre of Lviv which is expensive
Lviv guys are quite primitive, hard to make friends there
Any hot girl who knows her worth has left Lviv
There is almost zero fast food in Lviv.
Odessa is a real cosmopolitan city, you are more accepted as a foreigner.
Odessa has money and sophistication
Odessa girls have fantastic asses, I have seen girls at the gym only doing lower body exercises.
In summer Lviv would be a boring place to be, they go to grandma's house.
If you speak Russian in Odessa you are not a second class citizen.
There is no body of water in Lviv
Odessa girls are not conservative like Lviv girls, Odessa is the city of sin.
There are girls from hot pussy cities like kherson and Nikolaev that come to study in Odessa
Atmosphere is better in Odessa, people are more friendly

Advantages of Lviv:

Close proximity to Polish border
University in the centre, you feel swamped by girls sometimes
Guys look worse than in Odessa, almost none are in shape.
Outside of summer nightlife can be fun.
Lviv is probably the safest place to be should civil war break out.
Odessa is awash with whores, gypsies, junkies, crack heads, and HIV - Lviv is safer

I would kind of agree..but the many of the issues you bought up actually isn't going to help you get girls.For example you mention city is richer..how does that help you?
If anything it means that the girls are more high maintenance that you can probably deal with and unless you have the fast car and money you have less of a chance. Yeah hot girls who want rich local guys..
Now here is my lista part time native Odessit)
1.Odessans are the least impressed by foreigners of any FSU city I have been to.
2. Odessans are more snobby in general. It isn't just girls btw. I once ask a guy why something cost what it did..his answer because this is Odessa!
Roosh admitted they are snobby.
3. Expensive to go out.But I think you mentioned you are rich so that doesn't apply to you, but if one is Rich Moscow I hear is much better.(more speak English and less snobby)
4. More competition from other foreigners and locals. They like most FSU prefer locals and Odessan guys are considered witty, funny and ambitious.
4. Without a car..you are considered lower class.
5. Lots of scammer women, gold diggers, higher aids rate and more feminists than anyother FSU city. Oh did I mention hipsters?
The Odessan hipsters have been there for decades. I remember the clowns at the Moscow circus made fun of Odessans by their dress code and looks.
6. Sure many very hot chicks that you will never get, who will never talk to you and will walk by you and enter their own luxury car.
7.The city layout makes it so that you will be limited in who you meet and see. Since Odessa is a big city with no metro and public transportation is slow due to small streets and large amount of cars on the road..most chicks don't come often to the center.They also don't work in the center. So basically it is a city where most people stay in their own areas. This is reflected in the business climate. You will notice most supermarkets, shopping centers, clubs and restaurants are spread out the city.
In fact until a few years ago..there was only like 2 popular clubs in the city. It has expanded but those are places to attract tourists.
Btw the area to see the hottest chicks who work out, pampered is the Arcadia area(my area). It is the richest area..but the girls pretty much stay in their luxury apts.
8. Crime: This is a big one.Odessa has always been a violent criminal city but almost every long tern expat I know has been robbed or beat up at one time or another. I am not just talking bar fights. I mean guys innocently walking in the street and getting a brick hit their head and then kicked until passed out. My flt was even broken into by a cat burglar. Seriously according to cops he must have done acrobats and shit to get in(4th floor).
I never had any attack on myself..so year personal travel experience can help. But one of my friends who was 6'4" and ex military captain was in 3 criminal situations so it happens.
I should also add I was a cop so Criminals tend to sense their own predators and keep away.
As for Lviv...haven't spent much time there. I think it is better in most ways except the conservativeness.

That being said if you meet an Odessan in Kiev or another city..they tend to be much better.

[whoishe]

(05-10-2014 08:44 AM)DaveR Wrote:  

I would say they they overestimate their own value. The number of times I've heard Ukrainian girls say that they're "the best"...

A good way to neg them is to say that Russian girls are more elegant (use шикарный) and French/Italian girls are more graceful (use изящный). You'll see their Cinderella complex crumble right in front of you.

(05-10-2014 01:57 PM)Moriarty Wrote:  

Yeah, but to be honest i've heard much worse in other countries.

I love to neg the girls when they say "Ukrainian girls are the most beautiful", I say to them "well you are good, perhaps you scrape into the top ten", and "Ukrainian girls have a reputation in the west for being prostitutes and gold diggers"

Just curious - in "Bang Ukraine", as well as main threads regarding FSU women it was strongly suggested that negs are no-no for FSU chicks. So, how you are getting away with them? Is it because it were post-bangs negs? Or maybe subtle enough? Or you know how to aplly them because you are local? Or anything else... including that "negs will backfire" premise is in your opinion wrong.

[DaveR]

(05-10-2014 04:52 PM)whoishe Wrote:  

(05-10-2014 08:44 AM)DaveR Wrote:  

I would say they they overestimate their own value. The number of times I've heard Ukrainian girls say that they're "the best"...

A good way to neg them is to say that Russian girls are more elegant (use шикарный) and French/Italian girls are more graceful (use изящный). You'll see their Cinderella complex crumble right in front of you.

(05-10-2014 01:57 PM)Moriarty Wrote:  

Yeah, but to be honest i've heard much worse in other countries.

I love to neg the girls when they say "Ukrainian girls are the most beautiful", I say to them "well you are good, perhaps you scrape into the top ten", and "Ukrainian girls have a reputation in the west for being prostitutes and gold diggers"

Just curious - in "Bang Ukraine", as well as main threads regarding FSU women it was strongly suggested that negs are no-no for FSU chicks. So, how you are getting away with them? Is it because it were post-bangs negs? Or maybe subtle enough? Or you know how to aplly them because you are local? Or anything else... including that "negs will backfire" premise is in your opinion wrong.

Negging a girl directly is not a good idea, but in this case you do it in a way that brings down her value without insulting her directly.

Grouping FSU girls together doesn't make sense, IMO, because there are differing mentalities depending on which city they're from. Odessa and Kiev are similar in some respects. Second-tier cities (in both Ukraine and Russia) require a different game. Moscow and St. Petersburg are completely different again.

[TripleG]

(05-08-2014 06:54 PM)DaveR Wrote:  

(05-08-2014 06:07 PM)Teedub Wrote:  

You mentioned a 10k $ a month budget, I make about $4 a month after tax...where do you reckon is best for that kind of income?

The Baltics provide a better quality of life than Russia at all income levels. $4k should be enough to live well in St. Petersburg, but it will be cheaper in the Baltics and you can use the excess for travel. If you really wanted to save money, there's a town called Daugavpils in Latvia which is about 90% Russian and would be very cheap, but it's very small so would probably be boring. Vilnius is also very cheap and has a lot of stunning women, but they don't speak Russian.

I was using the 10k/month figure to point out that even with a relatively high income, nothing can buy great quality of life in Russia. Money can buy a certain level of social status, but as long as you're not scraping the barrel, game does just as well.

Just came back from Vilnius last week and gotta disagree with Dave's comment about them not speaking Russian. Almost all women over the age of 26 speak some Russian and in Vilnius (especially old town, senamiestis) it is pretty much a requirement for many locals working in bars, restaurants, stores, law agencies to speak Russian at least at a conversational level. I actually went out with a gorgeous 28 year old who spoke limited English but perfect Russian.

Btw, Vilnius women are some of the most beautiful I have ever met, on par with Kiev girls, though they dress on average more conservatively and are taller.

[Kiddler]

Okay serious question here. Everyone in the forum loves Kiev and I don't blame them one bit, the girls are gorgeous out there. Here is my dilemma, I'm middle eastern/Indian in appearance (although I'm neither) .. would I still have success in Kiev? How are non white races perceived in that part of the world?

[rishboy77]

(06-02-2014 09:01 PM)Kiddler Wrote:  

Okay serious question here. Everyone in the forum loves Kiev and I don't blame them one bit, the girls are gorgeous out there. Here is my dilemma, I'm middle eastern/Indian in appearance (although I'm neither) .. would I still have success in Kiev? How are non white races perceived in that part of the world?

Since I'm similar to you in appearance here is my take on the race issue. I would say about 80% prefer their own race, which is about same to North America.
I would say that remaining 20% usually dates foreigners, speaks better English, etc
With in the 20% - I have found about 5%- 10% Kiev girls who are into brown guys.. are really into brown guys. I have also known Ukrainian girls that are mainly into blacks guys too.
Sometimes the Western/ foreigner factor can trump the race factor, all depends on the girl and situation.

[DaveR]

(06-02-2014 08:30 PM)TripleG Wrote:  

Just came back from Vilnius last week and gotta disagree with Dave's comment about them not speaking Russian. Almost all women over the age of 26 speak some Russian and in Vilnius (especially old town, senamiestis) it is pretty much a requirement for many locals working in bars, restaurants, stores, law agencies to speak Russian at least at a conversational level. I actually went out with a gorgeous 28 year old who spoke limited English but perfect Russian.

Btw, Vilnius women are some of the most beautiful I have ever met, on par with Kiev girls, though they dress on average more conservatively and are taller.

If you keep the comment in the context of the thread (i.e. living in the country), most do not speak Russian. It's ok for someone there for a few days to game only those who work in central bars and restaurants, but that would get old very quickly if you lived there. It's a completely different situation to that of Riga (where half the population are native speakers) and Daugavpils (~90% native speakers).

In addition, Russian is not popular with the younger generation, so you would be limiting yourself to those who are post-wall or fast approaching it.

I agree that they are quite attractive though. I would say more so than Kiev, but it depends on your personal preferences.

[Barron]

I was going through some of my old threads and had completely forgot that I made this.

I've been in Kiev two months now and I have zero regrets about leaving. My job is stable and enjoyable, I've already made some good friends, plus I'm able to easily save 66% of my take home pay. The Russian learning is slow because I haven't found a teacher but my work is looking to get one for myself and a few other Americans that have requested beginner Russian lessons.

The girls here are a time investment but are both beautiful and easy to chat up and make plans with. You can check The Ukraine Thread for more details on my dating life.

To conclude:
It took me a year and a half to make the move happen and I really have to say that Kiev has been like therapy for me. I was an angry depressed guy living back in the states and now the depression is gone and the anger has slowly begun to fade away. Although I have to admit, reading some of the threads in the Everything Else forum does tend to get under my skin as I'm reminded of the wonderful world from whence I came. No matter, my only focus now is to keep working, approaching, and learning Russian. Also looking forward to working out at Hidropark in the dead of winter

[rishboy77]

(10-25-2015 10:14 AM)NomadofEU Wrote:  

I was going through some of my old threads and had completely forgot that I made this.

I've been in Kiev two months now and I have zero regrets about leaving. My job is stable and enjoyable, I've already made some good friends, plus I'm able to easily save 66% of my take home pay. The Russian learning is slow because I haven't found a teacher but my work is looking to get one for myself and a few other Americans that have requested beginner Russian lessons.

The girls here are a time investment but are both beautiful and easy to chat up and make plans with. You can check The Ukraine Thread for more details on my dating life.

To conclude:
It took me a year and a half to make the move happen and I really have to say that Kiev has been like therapy for me. I was an angry depressed guy living back in the states and now the depression is gone and the anger has slowly begun to fade away. Although I have to admit, reading some of the threads in the Everything Else forum does tend to get under my skin as I'm reminded of the wonderful world from whence I came. No matter, my only focus now is to keep working, approaching, and learning Russian. Also looking forward to working out at Hidropark in the dead of winter

Great decision and keep up the great reports.

[runner11]

(10-25-2015 10:14 AM)NomadofEU Wrote:  

I was going through some of my old threads and had completely forgot that I made this.

I've been in Kiev two months now and I have zero regrets about leaving. My job is stable and enjoyable, I've already made some good friends, plus I'm able to easily save 66% of my take home pay. The Russian learning is slow because I haven't found a teacher but my work is looking to get one for myself and a few other Americans that have requested beginner Russian lessons.

The girls here are a time investment but are both beautiful and easy to chat up and make plans with. You can check The Ukraine Thread for more details on my dating life.

To conclude:
It took me a year and a half to make the move happen and I really have to say that Kiev has been like therapy for me. I was an angry depressed guy living back in the states and now the depression is gone and the anger has slowly begun to fade away. Although I have to admit, reading some of the threads in the Everything Else forum does tend to get under my skin as I'm reminded of the wonderful world from whence I came. No matter, my only focus now is to keep working, approaching, and learning Russian. Also looking forward to working out at Hidropark in the dead of winter

Awesome job man, congrats on sticking to your plan. I have a similar plan and want to move to Mexico in about a year. im currently saving my money(should have about 50k saved by next year) and working on expanding my software skills to secure a job down there. I cant wait to leave the US.

[Gopnik]

(10-25-2015 10:14 AM)NomadofEU Wrote:  

I was going through some of my old threads and had completely forgot that I made this.

I've been in Kiev two months now and I have zero regrets about leaving. My job is stable and enjoyable, I've already made some good friends, plus I'm able to easily save 66% of my take home pay. The Russian learning is slow because I haven't found a teacher but my work is looking to get one for myself and a few other Americans that have requested beginner Russian lessons.

The girls here are a time investment but are both beautiful and easy to chat up and make plans with. You can check The Ukraine Thread for more details on my dating life.

To conclude:
It took me a year and a half to make the move happen and I really have to say that Kiev has been like therapy for me. I was an angry depressed guy living back in the states and now the depression is gone and the anger has slowly begun to fade away. Although I have to admit, reading some of the threads in the Everything Else forum does tend to get under my skin as I'm reminded of the wonderful world from whence I came. No matter, my only focus now is to keep working, approaching, and learning Russian. Also looking forward to working out at Hidropark in the dead of winter

Congrats on the move, Kiev sounds amazing! Are you working as an English teacher? The earlier posts said TEFL salaries aren't too great but being able to save 66% of your pay seems really good.
Can anyone comment on job prospects/career opportunities in Kiev? I'll be fluent in Russian by the time I graduate and I'd hate to stay in the UK. My only concern is that there wouldn't be many opportunities in the long run, unlike in England. Does anyone know if there's specific sectors have a big presence in Kiev? (kind of like how Wroclaw is a pretty big I.T hub with IBM and other big companies)

[zuma]

The economical situation is Ukraine is terrible so far. Their economy has been totally wiped out after the political crisis and how they cut from Russia.

Many Ukrainians are trying to go to Poland, especially Warsaw, to get a job. They are paid like 3 dollars per day.

Here is a video with french subs, didn't find the english one that explains the situation. They are following a young couple that went to Warsaw, sleeping in the train station and looking for desperate jobs ..

If you don't have your own business, working remotely or focusing on a niche market, could be difficult at the present time.

[Barron]

(10-26-2015 11:46 AM)zuma Wrote:  

The economical situation is Ukraine is terrible so far. Their economy has been totally wiped out after the political crisis and how they cut from Russia.

Many Ukrainians are trying to go to Poland, especially Warsaw, to get a job. They are paid like 3 dollars per day.

Here is a video with french subs, didn't find the english one that explains the situation. They are following a young couple that went to Warsaw, sleeping in the train station and looking for desperate jobs ..

If you don't have your own business, working remotely or focusing on a niche market, could be difficult at the present time.

Its true the economy isn't great but presenting Ukraine as a country where its citizens are desperate to leave is boldly misleading.

For example, the technology sector is booming here because western European companies want to hire Ukrainian coders and pay them in euros or usd. As a result, a Ukrainian coder's quality of life here rivals that of any working class western European. I know a couple coders personally and it has been more than possible for them to buy property and raise a family off their single income alone.

[TripleG]

For those who think of doing IT in EE don't forget that for us wannabe western expats we have to compete with local guys with "possibly superior IT skills" who have finished top-notch local technical college's/universities and are willing to work for a third of the salary of a western european. Unlike education in the west, in ex-Soviet states the education focuses less on the general (liberal arts) curriculum and more on the technical skill-set. On average a tech major will be better prepared there vs one from a western school.

Situation is a bit similar to how many US companies hired Indian's a decade ago, who were willing to do the same job for half the salary of an American and in many cases do a better job as they've been coding since they were teens in India and doing nothing else.
I still see this at my current company where foreigners on G4 visas are doing a better job than American's and frequently for lower wages.
For example I myself am desperate to leave Washington, DC area and am interviewing with several IT companies in EE and large Bank's and the requirements for even mid-entry network admin/engineer jobs and the relatively low pay are steep, higher than similar jobs in USA...nevertheless the companies know that they can always get a recent computer science major or computer engineering major and pay him "pennies on the dollar" since so many young people are underemployed there (Belarus/Russia/Ukraine/Baltics). I am fluent in English and several other languages and have MBA-level grad school classes and even that is barely enough to get a second look by local companies. They view me suspiciously when I tell them I want to relocate to Eastern Europe and usually ask me for my salary requirements...although I always state the local industry average they still view me with suspicion.

It does not surprise me then that so many foreigners (such as Nomad) end up going the "English teacher" route...that is one of the few specializations where we still have a major advantage over all the locals but for those who think they can land in EE and they will be blessed with jobs offers left and right that is far from the truth, especially in the IT sector.

My 2 cents,
TripleG

[superschalk]

(10-26-2015 09:23 PM)TripleG Wrote:  

For those who think of doing IT in EE don't forget that for us wannabe western expats we have to compete with local guys with "possibly superior IT skills" who have finished top-notch local technical college's/universities and are willing to work for a third of the salary of a western european. Unlike education in the west, in ex-Soviet states the education focuses less on the general (liberal arts) curriculum and more on the technical skill-set. On average a tech major will be better prepared there vs one from a western school.

Situation is a bit similar to how many US companies hired Indian's a decade ago, who were willing to do the same job for half the salary of an American and in many cases do a better job as they've been coding since they were teens in India and doing nothing else.
I still see this at my current company where foreigners on G4 visas are doing a better job than American's and frequently for lower wages.
For example I myself am desperate to leave Washington, DC area and am interviewing with several IT companies in EE and large Bank's and the requirements for even mid-entry network admin/engineer jobs and the relatively low pay are steep, higher than similar jobs in USA...nevertheless the companies know that they can always get a recent computer science major or computer engineering major and pay him "pennies on the dollar" since so many young people are underemployed there (Belarus/Russia/Ukraine/Baltics). I am fluent in English and several other languages and have MBA-level grad school classes and even that is barely enough to get a second look by local companies. They view me suspiciously when I tell them I want to relocate to Eastern Europe and usually ask me for my salary requirements...although I always state the local industry average they still view me with suspicion.

It does not surprise me then that so many foreigners (such as Nomad) end up going the "English teacher" route...that is one of the few specializations where we still have a major advantage over all the locals but for those who think they can land in EE and they will be blessed with jobs offers left and right that is far from the truth, especially in the IT sector.

My 2 cents,
TripleG

Interesting discussion. I am at the other side at the moment. I got a very lucrative offer to develop a B2B related app for a client in England. I decided to look for a backend and a front end developer in Kiev because I am an okay kind of developer but by far not good enough to build a full web app on my own.

Anyway I met up with two guys one senior JAVA developer with 10 years server side dev experience working for companies like IBM and Oracle. The front end guy is a bit more junior but still has 3 years experience with HTML5, JavaScript and JQuery.

I agreed to pay them on an hourly basis the senior Java guy gets $19 per hour while I pay the front end developer $14 per hour. If you consider the hourly salary for an average worker here in Kiev this is a lot of money for a local.

On the flip side I will charge my client in the UK $65 per hour of development work which is still far cheaper than if he would hire local developers in England.

So far we are two weeks into the development process and are mostly working on the backend side of things.
I am really impressed by the speed and quality the JAVA guy is delivering so far. His code is really clean and he definitely works more effective and quicker than an average western European developer.

Giving my very good experience with the quality of work delivered so far I am really considering to expand this business further as profit margins are really great.

So if anyone here is able to sign clients in Western Europe or in the US and is interested in a partnership I am more than open to discuss this further.