[jimukr104]

^^^^Rule:
Speak Russian..Always. If they speak Ukrainian and NOT Russian you don't want them anyway. They will be some conservative chick that doesn't fuck. So personally I would run away from Ukrainian speaking chicks.
No unless you look like Deb why would you be a rockstar? This isn't 1994 you know. Plenty of foreigners in Lviv.They aren't all of a sudden going to say "wow you speak Ukrainian I want to fuck you"
It be more like this" why are you in Lviv? why do you speak Ukrainian? you speak it badly..better to speak English. Are you a sex tourist? "
YOU"No but you girls are hot?"
HER:"What is wrong with American girls? What is wrong with you? Yes I am beautiful and so is she and she and she"(pointing to other women)

Seriously, this is pretty typical speech patterns.

[SpecialEd]

Have you been to Lviv recently? I find it hard to believe there are too many foreigners there given the situation, particularly Westerners.

But even so, I'm not really concerned about the competition anywhere. I'm a 6'2 muscular blonde guy who modeled throughout Uni. I do well in America.

The reason why I think learning Ukrainian might be valuable is it's a niche/minor language that most Western guys wouldn't bother with. When I lived in Budapest and spat a little game in Hungarian, it got me laid a lot. It shows an interest in their culture and that you might be hanging around for a while.

[DaveR]

(05-07-2014 07:06 PM)SpecialEd Wrote:  

You could of-course stick to the eastern/southern parts where only Russian is spoken but the general consensus is that the western cities like Lviv are more livable.

Yes, L'viv is probably the most liveable. The other Western cities are very small, so not really comfortable. Kiev isn't bad if you're location-independent and don't ever have to leave the central area.

One thing I forgot to mention about Ukraine - internet isn't so great there if you're dependent on a permanent connection. You should expect a couple of days per month with some downtime on your cable connection, and there is only one government-owned operator with a 3G license. No LTE in Ukraine for the foreseeable future.

(05-07-2014 07:06 PM)SpecialEd Wrote:  

What I'm about to say will undoubtedly offend some but it seems to me that the 'Ukrainian' language is a bit of an artificial construct.
Lviv is the epicenter of Ukrainian culture these days but until WWII, it was a Polish city and they spoke polish there. So where is this proud Ukrainian identity coming from?

And according to WhoIsShe, Poles can understand Ukrainian pretty well. It seems like a distant Polish dialect...

Ukrainian started out as an illiterate mix of Polish and Old East Slavic. It only became a literary language in the mid-1800s when Taras Shevchenko and others applied Russian-style grammar so that it could be written. A lot of the vocabulary is Polish, so it makes sense that Poles can understand it.

There were always three languages in L'viv - Polish, Yiddish and the mix that later became Ukrainian. Poles made up about half the population, Jews and Ukrainians the rest. The Poles and Jews were deported and massacred during WW2 and Stalin later repopulated the area to about 1/3 Russian and the rest Ukrainians.

The nationalism comes from L'viv, for two reasons... firstly, there was an uprising there (then part of Poland) during WW2, led by Stepan Bandera, to create a Ukrainian state. The people in that region were more politically minded because of the softer rule of the Austro-Hungarian empire and Polish state.

The second reason is that the Soviets implemented an anti-Polonisation program after L'viv and the surrounding region was annexed from Poland in WW2.

(05-07-2014 07:06 PM)SpecialEd Wrote:  

Having said that, Lviv would be a lovely city to live in, particularly for guys that are location independent(which im working on). And if you were to learn Ukrainian, as a foreigner, I'm sure you would have rock-star status.

I don't know much about the nature of Western Ukrainian women. However, speaking Russian elsewhere gives you better access to high-quality women. English-speaking 7s already have 10 other foreign guys to choose from on v Kontakte, Facebook or whatever site they use these days ("Check in"... whatever that is). You still have to work, but the ones who don't speak foreign languages are less spoiled and more open to listening to you.

[Teedub]

Dave, thanks for dropping all this advice. You've put me off Russia I think! I like a certain standard of life and I don't think Russia would be able to offer it. If you're saying the Estonian women are the same as Russians, but just with a different style...then it sounds good to me.

(05-07-2014 07:06 PM)SpecialEd Wrote:  

And according to WhoIsShe, Poles can understand Ukrainian pretty well. It seems like a distant Polish dialect...

I spend 2 months in Poland, and most Poles I spoke to couldn't understand why I thought they'd be able to understand Ukrainian. To them, it was just basically Russian. The most common response was "If I was with a Ukrainian and we were both drunk, with a few words and hand gestures...we'd probably be able to communicate a bit".

[DaveR]

(05-08-2014 04:09 AM)Teedub Wrote:  

Dave, thanks for dropping all this advice. You've put me off Russia I think! I like a certain standard of life and I don't think Russia would be able to offer it. If you're saying the Estonian women are the same as Russians, but just with a different style...then it sounds good to me.

Quality of life is not Russia's strong point, and no amount of money in Russia can give you the same lifestyle that can be found in many European cities. The ideal for me would be living somewhere like Italy or France and having a rotation of Russian girls come to visit. That way you get the best Europe has to offer in terms of women, culture, food, lifestyle, etc. However, it doesn't work for me for a couple of reasons - the tax/business climate in Italy and France is terrible, and I don't like hot Summers. I'm still looking for my ideal, but Tallinn is increasingly looking like it will be part of the solution.

If your aim is to learn Russian, you obviously have to live where it's spoken for a few years, so that makes the choice somewhat easier. Russian girls in the Baltics and Russia are the same once you get their clothes off. It's just that in Russia proper, the culture is more extreme and entertaining, and the girls totally dedicate themselves to their fashion and grooming. If you happened to live in Tallinn, it would be very easy to visit St. Petersburg a few times each year to get the real Russian experience. It's about 5 hours' drive and the road isn't too bad. Or you could fly or take the new train.

There are plenty of busty blonde Viking girls in Tallinn as well, which I would never complain about.

[Teedub]

Yeah I don't like really hot weather at all. Makes me nauseous. Like 30C is the maximum I can handle, and even then I would much prefer a very strong breeze. I mean, I can cope, I was in Italy 2 years ago and it was close to 40C on a few days with no breeze - but I'd hate to live in that kind of environment long term. Something around 25C is pleasant. Basically, if you can walk around all day wearing a T-Shirt...that's fine.

You'd need visas to get into St. P from Tallinn though right? Hope Tallinn doesn't get overrun - I already know two or three people who've moved there permanently...and the main reason was the women (and easy start up process for businesses). Just had a look on that rail site...the trains look nice for EE standards, wi-fi and everything haha.

Kiev appeals to me because it's so different to what I know, but in reality I think living there would be crap (for me). Though I'm sure a visit would be cool. I always envisioned living in St. P for some reason, it's always had a sort of pull (even before the forum), as my Latvian mate always goes on about how good it is, but your words of wisdom have put me off! I'm going to ask him if he agrees (though he's biased as he's ethnically Russian)!

[Barron]

Wow DaveR you have officially peaked my interest in Estonia... Thanks for all this great info, heading to the Tallinn datasheets now

[DaveR]

Trainwreck wrote some good posts about Tallinn. I remember him giving an update to say that the ratios were good during the cooler months but not so much in Summer when Tallinn gets overrun by tourists. That should be manageable as long as you build up a rotation in Spring, or if you chase Russians who don't speak any other languages.

Visas would be required for Russia, but they aren't difficult to get. You would need an invitation from a Russian travel agency (eg. this one in St. Petersburg: http://travelrussia.su/en/visa.business.php ). That invitation can then be used to apply for a 1-year multi-entry visa which allows up to 90 days in Russia in each half year. The Russian embassy in Tallinn operates through a visa centre, so the application process is not stressful there - no dealing with consular staff, queues, etc.

Minsk may be another option, but it's a bit left-field. Quality of life is better there than anywhere else in the FSU (excluding the Baltics), mainly due to their strict enforcement of the law. Pollution, food standards, traffic, etc. are as well regulated as in Central Europe and everything is well maintained. However, it's a butt ugly city and not very cosmopolitan. I don't know of any long-term visa options other than study visas, and the universities are very strict about attendance.

[DaveR]

This is also worth checking out for comparison's sake: http://www.numbeo.com/

* I'm not sure how they calculate their data, but the price information seems to be off in Ukraine and Russia, likely because of recent currency devaluations.

[Teedub]

^

I use numbero a lot when figuring out where to go next. It makes it seem that Kiev would be cheap....but yet that conflicts with info here. Ditto with St Petersburg in comparison to most British cities.

[DaveR]

(05-08-2014 03:38 PM)Teedub Wrote:  

^

I use numbero a lot when figuring out where to go next. It makes it seem that Kiev would be cheap....but yet that conflicts with info here. Ditto with St Petersburg in comparison to most British cities.

Some things are genuinely cheaper. For example, diesel is about 75 Eurocents at the moment. Gas and municipal heating are practically free, and electricity is about half the Western European price.

Other items make for a poor comparison due to quality differences. Eg. Russian bread is not the same quality as what you'll find in France.

The recent currency movements are also throwing the index off to some degree.

Within the EU, the comparisons seem to be a lot more reliable, and that makes sense because it's a common market and the currencies don't move much against each other.

[Teedub]

You mentioned a 10k $ a month budget, I make about $4 a month after tax...where do you reckon is best for that kind of income?

[DaveR]

(05-08-2014 06:07 PM)Teedub Wrote:  

You mentioned a 10k $ a month budget, I make about $4 a month after tax...where do you reckon is best for that kind of income?

The Baltics provide a better quality of life than Russia at all income levels. $4k should be enough to live well in St. Petersburg, but it will be cheaper in the Baltics and you can use the excess for travel. If you really wanted to save money, there's a town called Daugavpils in Latvia which is about 90% Russian and would be very cheap, but it's very small so would probably be boring. Vilnius is also very cheap and has a lot of stunning women, but they don't speak Russian.

I was using the 10k/month figure to point out that even with a relatively high income, nothing can buy great quality of life in Russia. Money can buy a certain level of social status, but as long as you're not scraping the barrel, game does just as well.

[SpecialEd]

I like Expatistan better than Numbeo but both are good.

Regarding Ukraine, I get the feeling that when a currency like the hryvnia or the Argentine peso crashes, prices don't go down much in real terms. Any high value transaction gets denominated in a more stable currency like the USD.

It really shatters my dreams of 1991 post-soviet style geo-arbitrage but what can I say...

[whoishe]

(05-08-2014 07:18 PM)SpecialEd Wrote:  

Regarding Ukraine, I get the feeling that when a currency like the hryvnia or the Argentine peso crashes, prices don't go down much in real terms. Any high value transaction gets denominated in a more stable currency like the USD.

It really shatters my dreams of 1991 post-soviet style geo-arbitrage but what can I say...

After my recent (April) trip to Lviv it seems they actually did. Local prices didn't change at all or were just raised slightly, I mean mostly here food + alcohol + entertainment prices. And hrivna was devaluated to USD or Polish Zloty by around 40% comparing to December. I am checking Goverla (http://goverla.net.ua/) every day and there are basically no chances since my trip regarding hrivna to USD situation.

Apartment rents are usually done in USD, but from what I see some exceptions are also happening.

[SpecialEd]

^It's hard to get a clear picture and perhaps it depends a lot on the city.. According to guys like Kamaki or jimukr, you need to be a mini-oligarch to live well in Kiev. Maybe if you play sponsorship-game...I live well in south florida on about $3K a month. I can't imagine Kiev has a remotely similar cost of living.

It would be cool to have a thread dedicated to providing boots on the ground COL data. For the guys who are location-independent(or almost there in my case), it's probably the number one deciding factor in relocating.

[DaveR]

(05-08-2014 07:26 PM)whoishe Wrote:  

(05-08-2014 07:18 PM)SpecialEd Wrote:  

Regarding Ukraine, I get the feeling that when a currency like the hryvnia or the Argentine peso crashes, prices don't go down much in real terms. Any high value transaction gets denominated in a more stable currency like the USD.

It really shatters my dreams of 1991 post-soviet style geo-arbitrage but what can I say...

After my recent (April) trip to Lviv it seems they actually did. Local prices didn't change at all or were just raised slightly, I mean mostly here food + alcohol + entertainment prices. And hrivna was devaluated to USD or Polish Zloty by around 40% comparing to December. I am checking Goverla (http://goverla.net.ua/) every day and there are basically no chances since my trip regarding hrivna to USD situation.

Apartment rents are usually done in USD, but from what I see some exceptions are also happening.

Fiance sites are reporting that the prices increased in March: http://finance.bigmir.net/budget/47193-Z...i-produkty

And according to the following, the price of bananas (fully imported item, fast-adjusting price due to their shelf life) is slightly higher than the price in Russia, so they seem to be well adjusted: http://mysupermarket.org.ua/index.html?my...3&name=293


SpecialEd - a decent apartment in Kiev will cost at least $1000/month. Food - check this link (use Chrome if you can't read it): http://mysupermarket.org.ua/index.html?&vot=usd
Gas prices in Ukraine are about the same as in the US. Clothes are extremely expensive all over the FSU - expect twice the US price. Other consumer goods like electronics sell at around 30-40% higher than the US tax-free price (VAT/sales tax is fixed at 20%).

You could probably live well in Kiev starting at around $10k per month, but at that level you would be better off living somewhere else and flying in Russian/Ukrainian girls.

The main things that destroy Russia and Ukraine from a cost/quality of living perspective are that the local produce and goods are of low quality and everything imported is extremely over-priced. Russia has an additional problems - the Customs service works very slowly, so there is no real way to get decent fresh food into the country. Because of the climate and population, there are also pollution and traffic issues. Those things aren't a problem if you're only on holiday or staying for a few months, but long-term they take their toll.

[SpecialEd]

Well, thanks Dave. I just threw out any notion of living in the FSU out the window lol.

I'm not sure how the (subjective) increase in the quality of the women there even begins to make up for the all the negatives. But I guess everyone has their priorities..

I'm inclined stay in EU E. Europe. Bulgaria, CZ, Estonia all offer a steep upgrade over American women and they're pretty cheap to boot.

[DaveR]

(05-08-2014 08:30 PM)SpecialEd Wrote:  

Well, thanks Dave. I just threw out any notion of living in the FSU out the window lol.

I'm not sure how the (subjective) increase in the quality of the women there even begins to make up for the all the negatives. But I guess everyone has their priorities..

I'm inclined stay in EU E. Europe. Bulgaria, CZ, Estonia all offer a steep upgrade over American women and they're pretty cheap to boot.

Keep in mind, that was written by a guy (me) who tried to leave three times. I always came back. I don't know why I do it, to be honest, because the place itself is not liveable. The girls are great though, not only for looks but also because of their mentality. For the past year I've been working on getting my work and lifestyle in order so I can enjoy Russian girls in a more liveable place.

I'm not sure if Prague is cheap - I've heard it's expensive now. Probably best to ask KorbenDallas or someone else who is on the ground there.

[rudebwoy]

DaveR - perhaps my question deserves another thread. Why are Russian and Ukranian girls so keen to fly and meet dudes all over the place?

[jimukr104]

(05-08-2014 10:14 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

DaveR - perhaps my question deserves another thread. Why are Russian and Ukranian girls so keen to fly and meet dudes all over the place?

free vacation!

[DaveR]

(05-08-2014 10:14 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

DaveR - perhaps my question deserves another thread. Why are Russian and Ukranian girls so keen to fly and meet dudes all over the place?

For them, it's a free holiday. Many of them can't afford to travel unless a guy pays for it or at least gives them free accommodation. Usually they only do it with guys they have met beforehand. If she agrees to meet some random guy from the internet, she probably has a few sponsors at home.

If she's from some godawful city, she may also see the guy as a potential 'exit card'. So her plan would be to marry a beta and sponge off him for a few years until she get a green card or citizenship in her own name. Girls from the more developed cities like Moscow, SPB, Kiev, Odessa, Kazan usually don't fit into this category - they live relatively well apart from not having enough cash to travel as much as they would like.

[rudebwoy]

A few friends are chatting to gals they have never met online.

Some of them are pretty hot and are very keen to travel, even to Canada.

[DaveR]

(05-08-2014 10:29 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

A few friends are chatting to gals they have never met online.

Some of them are pretty hot and are very keen to travel, even to Canada.

They might not be able to get visas... Canada is the most difficult for Russians. It's worth trying anyway, if the guys don't mind paying that much to have a Russian girl stay with them for a few weeks.

[SpecialEd]

Lol, was that question rhetorical? I guess that's another thing about Russia/Ukraine that makes me a bit lukewarm about the place: the FSU screw you over mentality. Everyone, the police, the women, the baker..is trying to squeeze you.

And there seems to be a level of materialism there that puts the U.S to shame. One of the things I really hate about Americans is the constant talking about money. It bores me to tears. But even in America, mobsters aren't glorified like they seem to be in Russia.