What are some of the best cities right now that sit at the sweet-spot of good quality of life and affordability? I know quality of life is somewhat subjective, but by that I mean walkable urban centers and not based around having to drive everywhere, access to cultural activities, decent to good nightlife, good restaurants, hopefully some decent looking girls, not (too)dangerous.

The growing gap in wealth in America is causing a lot of problems. The places that are desirable urban centers are also where the top 10% wants to live and they are driving up cost of living and pushing out middle income people. Nowhere is this more acute than San Francisco right now. You have a lot of bohemian and artsy type people that have always been the heart and soul of the city that are being squeezed out by Silicon Valley techies making $200k a year. They are pushing housing costs so high that I wouldn't be surprised to hear the resentment boil over into violent retribution at some point. I hear similar things going on in NYC. To some extent every city that is desirable in America is crushing its middle income people. New housing starts are constrained and developers don't find it profitable to build affordable housing. I just posted a link the L.A. thread showing that even though average incomes are down in California by 8% between 2010-2012, rents jumped by 20%. Given that population continues to grow in the USA unlike Europe which is heading toward demographic winter, I see a time when you really won't be able to live decent in any tier 1 city in America unless you make $150k a year minimum.

Anyway, I'm digressing off the point. I've heard that Berlin is actually a great value and that cost of living is surprisingly cheap for a Western European capital. I've heard great about Budapest. Cheap with a good quality of life. Buenos Aires and Bangkok are long-time contenders, though I've been hearing that Buenos Aires isn't the steal it used to be. Where do you guys find value out there right now, and where do you think will offer the best value in the next 5 years?

Yeah Berlin is great for lifestyle. If you can gel with the city, its a contender for sure. There is a lot of work there at the moment and continues to push innovation so I can only see it as getting better. In regards to women, its another matter entirely.

I have waved the Vienna flag on here many times, and will continue to do so. I am not shy to say that I desire a high standard of living when it comes to my day to day living. I have my adventures in developing nations, but I require diligent efficiency in a city for my own personal sanity when it comes to working and living.

For now, Vancouver is where its at for me. Yeah, its the second most expensive city in the world (so I am told all the time) but it ticks all the boxes I need. If you hussle, you can get good value here. But its not easy.

If you can stand Asia, I found Kuala Lumpur to be great value. I find most of Asia outside of Japan to be a shithole, but Malaysia seems to get it more than most.

I feel like I am missing something though. I always feel like the USA has the best value in regards to income vs cost of living.

I am just happier in the Corinthian lifestyle I guess.

I always heard raves about Lisbon, Portugal. Cheapest Western European capital, great weather year long, fantastic food and wine, lots to do and see. Beautiful and historic city. Good and vibrant nightlife, friendly locals, mind you not the best local talent but has tons of foreigners and a huge Brazilian community. Very very high in my list of places to semi settle when the time comes.

Quote: (02-12-2014 10:53 PM)Laner Wrote:  

Yeah Berlin is great for lifestyle. If you can gel with the city, its a contender for sure. There is a lot of work there at the moment and continues to push innovation so I can only see it as getting better. In regards to women, its another matter entirely.

Any idea as to why it's so cheap given that Germany's economy is strong? I feel like there must be some reason behind that.

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I have waved the Vienna flag on here many times, and will continue to do so. I am not shy to say that I desire a high standard of living when it comes to my day to day living. I have my adventures in developing nations, but I require diligent efficiency in a city for my own personal sanity when it comes to working and living.

I can totally understand that. Never been to Vienna but from the pics I've seen it looks incredible.

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For now, Vancouver is where its at for me. Yeah, its the second most expensive city in the world (so I am told all the time) but it ticks all the boxes I need. If you hussle, you can get good value here. But its not easy.

2nd most expensive? You sure about that? More than Sydney or Stockholm or Moscow??

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I feel like I am missing something though. I always feel like the USA has the best value in regards to income vs cost of living.

Probably does if you're looking at "average" cost of living compared to "average" incomes. But if you are only focusing on the handful of cities that would give you a high quality of life(for an urban bachelor anyway), it's very expensive. Basically it's just NYC, LA, SF, Miami and maybe Chicago. Only one, maybe two of those cities can you live just fine without a car. None of them are bargains. Chicago would be the best deal if you can put up with the weather. I'm going to be visiting there in April to get a feel for it.

From what I have read, Germany has never had a crazy housing market. Also, they are very strong savers which I believe keeps them from chasing material goods and not drive prices up.

I had checked out Berlin housing a while ago and it did seem cheap relative to the rest of Europe.

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Any idea as to why it's so cheap given that Germany's economy is strong? I feel like there must be some reason behind that.

My German friends from economic cities like to say that they subsidize the Berliners. I dont know how much of that is true, but certainly rent is very reasonable. Beer and alcohol is cheap. Food is fresh and healthy. The bahn system is not cheap, but its efficient and goes everywhere. Its a flat city so bikes are the best mode of transport.

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2nd most expensive? You sure about that? More than Sydney or Stockholm or Moscow??

Like I said, this year its been all over the news. Not sure what categories make up these lists. But Canada on a whole, is much more expensive than most of the USA. For me, the USA is a bargain compared to here.

There has been a huge amount of talk about Chicago among my friends over the past few years. Nothing but love. I need to check it out.

You need to clarify: is this for location-independent incomes, or for someone working on the ground?

If your income is location independent:
Krakow - for the best food anywhere in Central/Eastern Europe
Prague - the most developed city in C/EE

These are a step down in culture but a step up in women:
Vilnius
Tallinn

In terms of infrastructure, all of the above are more developed than many cities in Italy and Spain.

Budapest is cheap but always polarises opinions. I personally think it's a dump, but others love it. I wouldn't recommend it either way, because any language skills you acquire there will not be 'transferrable'. The languages in the rest of Eastern Europe are all Slavic, and if you know one it's easier to pick up another one... much of the vocabulary and grammar are similar.

Quote: (02-12-2014 11:25 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

Any idea as to why it's so cheap given that Germany's economy is strong? I feel like there must be some reason behind that.

Since '45 Berlin has never been the/a economical center of Germany, and it's still far away from it.
Cities that are economical powerhouses to Germany are e.g. Hamburg, Munich, Frankfurt and Stuttgart , and these have much higher rent costs than Berlin, because people there actually make the big money.

Berlin the only capital city in europe , where the income is lower than the national average.
I think that says something.

Although, I have to add that rents have increased drastically over the last years in Berlin, because of all the popularity, tourists and german kids with rich parents moving there.

Expatistan's Cost of Living Index

Avoid (unless you are being paid an equivalently high salary)



Target (if you have location independent income)

Good stuff Durangotang....but Florianopolis can be $$$ as fuck. Not to mention one needs a car to get around there too.

Sure rent in some nice locations can be cheap, but everything is so scattered so no car = no access to anything.

I was going to mention Budapest, I see it is on the favourable list.

Jakarta is very fun, its major downside is it lacks things to do in the day.

Wroclaw FTW

London FTL

Quote: (02-13-2014 10:23 PM)Courage Reborn Wrote:  

Wroclaw FTW

I liked wroclaw a lot - but fuck I have this feeling it is overwhelmed with guys from abroad lol. Everyone seems to be there (just kidding of course). Wish I went when school was in session.

Quote: (02-13-2014 06:52 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

I was going to mention Budapest, I see it is on the favourable list.

I love Budapest and a guy can live very well there on a couple thousand dollars per month but I do feel that babes in Hungary are not quite as common as in Slavic countries. The average Hungarian girl is a bit more burly looking.

Quote: (02-14-2014 12:40 AM)SeanBateman Wrote:  

Quote: (02-13-2014 06:52 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

I was going to mention Budapest, I see it is on the favourable list.

I love Budapest and a guy can live very well there on a couple thousand dollars per month but I do feel that babes in Hungary are not quite as common as in Slavic countries. The average Hungarian girl is a bit more burly looking.

Budapest does sound like it's a strong contender, but unfortunately I've heard from multiple sources that Hungarian women are mediocre. And I must say I've only met one Hungarian girl that was over a 6.

^ Yeah. There are pretty girls there for sure and learning even just a bit of Hungarian is an effective way to differentiate yourself from the average tourists, but I can say from experience that the Czech Republic and Slovakia have better looking girls and I would guess that Croatia and Ukraine do as well. That being said, Budapest is a beautiful and intriguing city. Budapest has more of a cafe culture than Prague and more of a Mediterranean vibe. Hungary is functional enough to be pleasant while dysfunctional enough to be interesting (and cheap). I thought Prague was great ten years ago when it was still cheap and kind of sketchy, but it has become considerably more clean and affluent since that time and now I think it is a bit bland. It's nice but it's becoming saturated by the same shopping malls and pockets of pseudo-artist hipster culture (single origin espresso and fancy denim) that are found in any major US or Western European city. Budapest by comparison still has bullet holes the facades of buildings from various periods of war and cheap space that gets converted into open air pubs in the summer that can have a slight feeling of lawlessness. The food and wine are good and there are some great cafes to hang out in. The thermal baths are awesome. The Hungarian psyche is interesting, a resonant pride from their former empire mixed with depression because of the current state of the country. Their neighbors like the Czech Republic and Croatia have flourished in recent years while Hungary has languished due to their bizarre governance and declining currency (they use the forint, not the euro). If your goal is to just bang hot girls then it's hard to beat the Czech Republic, but if you don't mind digging a little deeper for quality in a more interesting (and less expensive) place then Hungary would be a good place to spend some time. A modest flat in the Old Jewish Quarter on the Pest side of Budapest wouldn't be too expensive and it's centrally located in a cool part of town full of beautiful old buildings. At some point I want to spend a few months there and really figure that place out.

Berlin is still cheap also because the local economy took a walloping when absorbing the Osties (East Germans) in the early 1990s. Imagine if 1.5million people with an income of $10,000 a year were suddenly dumped into Chicago - it would take decades to recover. Berlin is basically a city of hipsters though, I really wasn't a fan. Cheap yes, but awful weather in winter. And a really masculine culture for the girls. If girls wearing nice cocktail dresses and heels isn't 'cool' in a city then I don't want to live there, to be honest.

Lisbon is great. Really cheap (the ATMs give out 5eur notes - that's how you know it's a cheap country!), sunny, lots of tourist girls. Locals aren't up to much but I'd take that compromise. Learning Portuguese opens up Brasil to you too. Job market is meant to be fairly awful though, if you aren't location independent.

Prague is very cheap once you get outside the tourist areas. Beautiful girls too. Useless language and an awful winter though.

Cost of living is dirt cheap in a lot of Asian cities if you want to go that way, you can live like a real rich kid in Bangkok on 2000eur a month. Even in 'proper' cities like Shanghai I found things a lot cheaper than in Europe. You'll probably end up stuck in an expat bubble though, I found the locals quite hard to relate to in Asia.

Quote: (02-13-2014 05:43 PM)Brosemite Wrote:  

Good stuff Durangotang....but Florianopolis can be $$$ as fuck. Not to mention one needs a car to get around there too.

Sure rent in some nice locations can be cheap, but everything is so scattered so no car = no access to anything.

Pretty much. Crappy logistics + inflated prices during the summer season (from october to march) prevent the city from being such a good deal.

Quote: (02-14-2014 04:13 AM)zatara Wrote:  

Prague is very cheap once you get outside the tourist areas. Beautiful girls too. Useless language and an awful winter though.

I know most of the Slavic languages are useless on their own, but keep in mind that it's very easy for a fluent speaker to transition from one to another. Transitioning between Czech/Slovak/Polish or Russian/Bulgarian should only take about 6 months. Between the two groups (eg. Slovak to Russian) will take more time, but you'll still be able to get there much quicker than starting from scratch.

Coming from Russian, I could call a taxi and ask for directions and figure out a lot of signs and advertisements after only a few days in Slovakia.

Quote: (02-14-2014 03:17 AM)SeanBateman Wrote:  

^ Yeah. There are pretty girls there for sure and learning even just a bit of Hungarian is an effective way to differentiate yourself from the average tourists, but I can say from experience that the Czech Republic and Slovakia have better looking girls and I would guess that Croatia and Ukraine do as well. That being said, Budapest is a beautiful and intriguing city. Budapest has more of a cafe culture than Prague and more of a Mediterranean vibe. Hungary is functional enough to be pleasant while dysfunctional enough to be interesting (and cheap). I thought Prague was great ten years ago when it was still cheap and kind of sketchy, but it has become considerably more clean and affluent since that time and now I think it is a bit bland. It's nice but it's becoming saturated by the same shopping malls and pockets of pseudo-artist hipster culture (single origin espresso and fancy denim) that are found in any major US or Western European city. Budapest by comparison still has bullet holes the facades of buildings from various periods of war and cheap space that gets converted into open air pubs in the summer that can have a slight feeling of lawlessness. The food and wine are good and there are some great cafes to hang out in. The thermal baths are awesome. The Hungarian psyche is interesting, a resonant pride from their former empire mixed with depression because of the current state of the country. Their neighbors like the Czech Republic and Croatia have flourished in recent years while Hungary has languished due to their bizarre governance and declining currency (they use the forint, not the euro). If your goal is to just bang hot girls then it's hard to beat the Czech Republic, but if you don't mind digging a little deeper for quality in a more interesting (and less expensive) place then Hungary would be a good place to spend some time. A modest flat in the Old Jewish Quarter on the Pest side of Budapest wouldn't be too expensive and it's centrally located in a cool part of town full of beautiful old buildings. At some point I want to spend a few months there and really figure that place out.

This is spot on.
I first hit Prague in 2005 and was blown away by the talent and how inexpensive it was, I imagine that has changed alot now.
I have been to Budapest three times (ex gf was from there) and your description is perfect, I would still live there due to the cost, location and vibe of the place.

For a combination of good looking girls, reasonable cost and access to Western amenities, I'd have to give the nod to Bangkok and Manila.

Seoul used to be a great place to live 10 years ago but it's gotten so ridiculously expensive in the past few years.

You guys talking about Prague, Wroclaw, Lisbon, Budapest.....

You have to be location independent to even think about having a go at them. Or maybe an English teacher.

I am not sure if that was the intent when Speakeasy started this. I took it as a place that a man could find work and make life. Though I could be wrong.

Yeah, if just finding the city with the best value for a couple weeks then I could agree with Bangkok or Wroclaw.

I like Lisbon as a city, I was in live music heaven there. It seemed that every cafe had a live band. But I cant recall seeing one good looking girl there. Though there were lots in the Algarve.

Budapest is a cool city, and certainly has come a long way since the late 90's when the central station smelled like shit. Literally. It was like people were shitting in the dark corners of the place. One of my favorite hotels is here, and its a great place to live like a baller for a weekend. I like the variety of women there, although I still prefer the overall look of women from Wroclaw-Krakow-Prague-Brataslava region.

Quote: (02-14-2014 04:13 AM)zatara Wrote:  

Berlin is still cheap also because the local economy took a walloping when absorbing the Osties (East Germans) in the early 1990s. Imagine if 1.5million people with an income of $10,000 a year were suddenly dumped into Chicago - it would take decades to recover. Berlin is basically a city of hipsters though, I really wasn't a fan. Cheap yes, but awful weather in winter. And a really masculine culture for the girls. If girls wearing nice cocktail dresses and heels isn't 'cool' in a city then I don't want to live there, to be honest.

Lisbon is great. Really cheap (the ATMs give out 5eur notes - that's how you know it's a cheap country!), sunny, lots of tourist girls. Locals aren't up to much but I'd take that compromise. Learning Portuguese opens up Brasil to you too. Job market is meant to be fairly awful though, if you aren't location independent.

Prague is very cheap once you get outside the tourist areas. Beautiful girls too. Useless language and an awful winter though.

Cost of living is dirt cheap in a lot of Asian cities if you want to go that way, you can live like a real rich kid in Bangkok on 2000eur a month. Even in 'proper' cities like Shanghai I found things a lot cheaper than in Europe. You'll probably end up stuck in an expat bubble though, I found the locals quite hard to relate to in Asia.

RE Berlin, very good points. I 100% concur on the girls in Germany in general - they are not that feminine, sort of dress and act like men + have the ultimate 'cradle to grave' social benefits system backing them up so they really don't need a man to get by. Whenever I'm in Germany in a big city or city that's wealthy I seem to see a lot of the 'reverse busted dudes test' there too. Shame bc on paper a lot of these girls would be really pretty if they lost a little weight and dressed and acted more like a woman. Still it's way better than in the US.

RE Prague and the 'awful winter', well heh compared to Moscow it feels like Spring here now. I think it's not as bad as people think especially since the city is well south of Berlin and Dresden. Outside the center is definitely cheap and pretty livable I'd say. It's easy enough to avoid the tourists for the most part as long as you just steer clear of Prague 1 and 2 in the center.

Quote: (02-15-2014 12:56 PM)Laner Wrote:  

You guys talking about Prague, Wroclaw, Lisbon, Budapest.....

You have to be location independent to even think about having a go at them. Or maybe an English teacher.

I am not sure if that was the intent when Speakeasy started this. I took it as a place that a man could find work and make life. Though I could be wrong.

Yeah that's exactly what I though too when Wroclaw, Krakow etc. were bandied about. You need to be location independent or some kind of highly skilled English teacher. Lot of guys I met in these cities who taught English were basically just getting by and I really don't think there are any good business opportunities there unless you're highly entrepreneurial and speak fluent Polish/Czech/Hungarian etc.

Yes, I'd plan on getting my income from location independent means, not looking for work on the local job market or teaching English.

I'm also open to Latin America as well, BTW.