^ Fuck coinbase put your money in btc e you can hold it in usd euro or whatever and buy and sell in one second.

Quote:pants Wrote:

To earn money from mining you need to consider several factors
- Cost of mining equipment
- cost of electricity
- Risks of investing in mining equipment(Will they deliver when they say they will?)
- Future hashrate(how many other people are mining?)
- Value of bitcoin.

Cost of electricity in the USA generally won't be a concern. It is a factor but it's unlikely going to be what makes mining unprofitable (read: exchange rate, mining difficulty).

Alternatively, you can make money hustling the supplies needed for mining. GPUs for LTC. I just got ahold of six GPUs in high demand for LTC at 280. They are sold out from retailers (they are over two years old) and going for over 400 (used) on eBay and CL.

Most miners in the gold rushes didn't get rich but the merchants who set up shop and sold them their supplies did.

Why is gox moving so slow and low?

Quote: (12-08-2013 04:41 PM)svenski7 Wrote:  

Quote:pants Wrote:

To earn money from mining you need to consider several factors
- Cost of mining equipment
- cost of electricity
- Risks of investing in mining equipment(Will they deliver when they say they will?)
- Future hashrate(how many other people are mining?)
- Value of bitcoin.

Cost of electricity in the USA generally won't be a concern. It is a factor but it's unlikely going to be what makes mining unprofitable (read: exchange rate, mining difficulty).

Alternatively, you can make money hustling the supplies needed for mining. GPUs for LTC. I just got ahold of six GPUs in high demand for LTC at 280. They are sold out from retailers (they are over two years old) and going for over 400 (used) on eBay and CL.

Most miners in the gold rushes didn't get rich but the merchants who set up shop and sold them their supplies did.

When making any investment, a guy has to take all the anticipated matters into account.. as listed by Pants... unless you are living with MOM and DAD... NOT saying that you are.... and sometimes the small aspects of COSTS (even storage space and opportunity costs) can add up and convert profits into losses...

Quote: (12-08-2013 04:53 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  

Quote: (12-08-2013 04:41 PM)svenski7 Wrote:  

Quote:pants Wrote:

To earn money from mining you need to consider several factors
- Cost of mining equipment
- cost of electricity
- Risks of investing in mining equipment(Will they deliver when they say they will?)
- Future hashrate(how many other people are mining?)
- Value of bitcoin.

Cost of electricity in the USA generally won't be a concern. It is a factor but it's unlikely going to be what makes mining unprofitable (read: exchange rate, mining difficulty).

Alternatively, you can make money hustling the supplies needed for mining. GPUs for LTC. I just got ahold of six GPUs in high demand for LTC at 280. They are sold out from retailers (they are over two years old) and going for over 400 (used) on eBay and CL.

Most miners in the gold rushes didn't get rich but the merchants who set up shop and sold them their supplies did.

When making any investment, a guy has to take all the anticipated matters into account.. as listed by Pants... unless you are living with MOM and DAD... NOT saying that you are.... and sometimes the small aspects of COSTS (even storage space and opportunity costs) can add up and convert profits into losses...

JJG,
I've lived in the county with the highest kW/hr cost and now I'm looking at 4.75 cents per hour (one of the lowest rates). Assuming I had a decent rig sitting in front on me, I would mine in either location.

The odds that a change in electricity rate (fixed cost) is going to cut into profit margin enough to justify halting operations is slim to none. The odds that a change in difficulty or worth of coin will cease operations is high. Go back and look at blogs from BTC miners a year ago, they were blogging that mining coins worth pennies wasn't covering the electric bill. Those coins are now worth hundreds of dollars...their electric rates are probably the same.

Remember Microecon 101...if profit is greater than total fixed costs, production should continue in the short-term, even if average variable costs incur a net operating loss. If the exchange rate tanks, it would be inadvisable to sell your mining rigs. Instead, wait and see.

Quote: (12-08-2013 08:46 PM)svenski7 Wrote:  

JJG,
I've lived in the county with the highest kW/hr cost and now I'm looking at 4.75 cents per hour (one of the lowest rates). Assuming I had a decent rig sitting in front on me, I would mine in either location.

The odds that a change in electricity rate (fixed cost) is going to cut into profit margin enough to justify halting operations is slim to none. The odds that a change in difficulty or worth of coin will cease operations is high. Go back and look at blogs from BTC miners a year ago, they were blogging that mining coins worth pennies wasn't covering the electric bill. Those coins are now worth hundreds of dollars...their electric rates are probably the same.

Remember Microecon 101...if profit is greater than total fixed costs, production should continue in the short-term, even if average variable costs incur a net operating loss. If the exchange rate tanks, it would be inadvisable to sell your mining rigs. Instead, wait and see.

If you are quoting the electricity cost accurately, then you are talking about a cost of $1.20 for electricity per day (if you are running the thing 24/7). That may be a very small amount, but NOT something that should NOT be accounted and calculated. If you want to skip the small costs, then that is your choice, but in my mind a guy needs to add all of those kinds of costs up in order to make an informed decisions about the anticipated profit level(s). Ultimately, you can disagree with my perspective, and it is NO big deal.

Jay juan. If you were to go to sleep right now and had to place a sell order what would the number be?

Quote: (12-08-2013 10:15 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  

Jay juan. If you were to go to sleep right now and had to place a sell order what would the number be?

I put sale orders in starting at 920. Lets see what happens.

Quote: (12-08-2013 10:49 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  

Quote: (12-08-2013 10:15 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  

Jay juan. If you were to go to sleep right now and had to place a sell order what would the number be?

I put sale orders in starting at 920. Lets see what happens.

ElMech:

Sorry, I am NOT much informed about playing both ends (the ups and the downs), b/c at this point, I am just considering buying... However, if I were to put in a sell order during the night while I was sleeping, i would be thinking $1,100 or something like that. I would NOT be willing to play it so tightly.. But if BTC were to go up to $1,100 while I was sleeping, then that may be a good time to cash out and then buy the next day. when BTC goes back down to $900 or so... Again... that $920 is too tight for me... You seem to be a little bearish on the price of the BTC and you have this feeling that there is going to be a correction or that we remain in the midst of a dead cat bounce... while i am more bullish and I am skeptical about this dead cat bounce concept..

Quote: (12-08-2013 10:06 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  

Quote: (12-08-2013 08:46 PM)svenski7 Wrote:  

JJG,
I've lived in the county with the highest kW/hr cost and now I'm looking at 4.75 cents per hour (one of the lowest rates). Assuming I had a decent rig sitting in front on me, I would mine in either location.

The odds that a change in electricity rate (fixed cost) is going to cut into profit margin enough to justify halting operations is slim to none. The odds that a change in difficulty or worth of coin will cease operations is high. Go back and look at blogs from BTC miners a year ago, they were blogging that mining coins worth pennies wasn't covering the electric bill. Those coins are now worth hundreds of dollars...their electric rates are probably the same.

Remember Microecon 101...if profit is greater than total fixed costs, production should continue in the short-term, even if average variable costs incur a net operating loss. If the exchange rate tanks, it would be inadvisable to sell your mining rigs. Instead, wait and see.

If you are quoting the electricity cost accurately, then you are talking about a cost of $1.20 for electricity per day (if you are running the thing 24/7). That may be a very small amount, but NOT something that should NOT be accounted and calculated. If you want to skip the small costs, then that is your choice, but in my mind a guy needs to add all of those kinds of costs up in order to make an informed decisions about the anticipated profit level(s). Ultimately, you can disagree with my perspective, and it is NO big deal.

Svenski:

I do NOT mean to prolong this portion of our conversation on mining b/c i am really NOT very knowledgeable about the mining angle - except, i understand that the mining market is becoming more and more competitive in recent months and probably into the future it will remain fairly competitive. The real profits were likely already made by the early adopters. Yet, there may be a few other advantages to mining, so at this point in my knowledge, I would NOT claim to know all of the mining angles.

However, I did a little more looking into this electricity costs matter and generally, people seem to be estimating the electricity costs to be much more than what you are quoting. Rather than $30 or $40 or so a month, many estimates are closer to double or triple that amount ($60 to $120/month) - however, there may be considerable variabilities to how those calculations are made depending on the kind and age of equipment and the number of mining machines that a guy is running.

For example, if a guy were to have whole rooms filled with various brands and generations of mining machines, he is going to experience greater electricity costs versus someone who may just purchase one mining machine.

Anyhow, each guy will probably need to consider his own situation, yet I doubt that a guy would be prudent to completely ignore electricity costs, unless he happens to be setting up the machine(s) in a location in which he is able to NOT pay those costs at the present or into the future. Apparently, some of the machine set-ups suck so much electricity, that if a guy were to attempt to get the electricity for free, there may be some changes in the electricity bill that would draw attention to the fact that electricity consumption had gone up - probably would be hard to detect if a guy were living in a college dormitory, but in other locations, may be more traceable.

[M: Posted this in other bitcoin thread -- my bad]

I'm no fan of mining, especially of already massively traded coins, too much work for my taste & low rewards.

If you search Twitter, though, you'll notice lots of smart folks doing it & making good, very good money. I'm not quite clear where the 'in' is to catch a good opportunity to start mining a particular coin. Too join a group already massively mining is not where the sweet spot is. If you look at the ROI's of WDC or Zetacoin, you'll see very high profits. That would be interesting.

OTOH, it's all hot air. Besides BTC (and maybe LTC) all of these coins are pure speculation. You could have joined a huge time-waster.

Quote: (12-08-2013 10:49 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  

Quote: (12-08-2013 10:15 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  

Jay juan. If you were to go to sleep right now and had to place a sell order what would the number be?

I put sale orders in starting at 920. Lets see what happens.

El M:

Are you still selling BTC at $920, or was that merely your overnight position...? you are recalibrating your plan?

I kepot hoping that this BTC price would dip below $800 so I can allocate my daily buy to maybe up to .5 BTC....?


If BTC does NOT dip today below $800, then I may purposefully limit my daily buy to .2 or .3 BTC. Certainly, I do NOT want to structure my life in such a way that I have to be constantly stuck to my monitor and watching the BTC ticker.. However, recently, I am a little bit focused on wanting to build up my Bitcoin portfolio.... to maybe incrementally get in the 15 BTC range by the end of the year?

I’m holding some cash in reserve in case the price drops, and I can really feel comfortable increasing my investment level – but in the end, I am considering that maybe I would be instead about another $15,000 by the middle of next year (whatever the price may be). So my total investment may get in the $30K range… which can get pretty risky, and bordering on uncomfortable if I were to lose it.

I do NOT want to build up my BTC portfolio in such desperation that I end up buying a whole bunch of BTC at X inflated price and then they drop to a lower Y deflated price and I am kicking myself. I kind of wished I would have bought more when the price was in the $600 range... but kept thinking, like you, and based on how quickly the price was dropping, that BTC prices were going to continue to drop lower (which so far has NOT happened)..

Well, since my BTC investment strategy is incremental and intended to be quasi-long term, there are some disadvantages to this incremental way of acquiring coins - especially, since currently, I am anticipating the price to be tending upward (without any assurances of such).
I feel that I am engaging in some kind of investment behavior that I advise against, and that is attempting to time the market. Nonetheless, this BTC market is so volatile and fun… and compressed.. and it becomes very tempting to time my incremental investments.

I really am hoping for a fairly decent crash, so I can feel more comfortable acquiring a larger BTC holdings... and feeling comfortable with that.

Quote: (12-09-2013 03:03 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  

Certainly, I do NOT want to structure my life in such a way that I have to be constantly stuck to my monitor and watching the BTC ticker..

Why not? I watch it - especially the troll box. lol.

As far as the cash you are investing - do you keep it at home in the freezer and what is your address? JK.

920 was for last night it never hit. Close though.

Jay Juan wow you're going to put 30k in there huh?

Quote: (12-09-2013 03:25 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  

Why not? I watch it - especially the troll box. lol.

Sam(cubed):

Yeah.. that’s funny.

I already spend WAY TOO MUCH time watching and reading my RVF subscribed threads… NOW you are suggesting that I should add a troll box into the mix? A way to be even less productive, and to take away from banging opportunities…. I’m NOT convinced that a troll box is going to help my quality of life.

Quote: (12-09-2013 03:25 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  

As far as the cash you are investing - do you keep it at home in the freezer and what is your address? JK.

Actually, in the past few weeks, I withdrew about $3,000 from the bank because I was finding a lot of delays in trying to invest electronically (because accounts were so cumbersome to attempt to set up). So then, I was trying to trace down LocalBitcoins sellers and to arrange a sale of $2,500 for BTC. However, the price kept going up (from $1000 to $1300), and I felt less comfortable in purchasing as large of a quantity, and by the time, I was going to lock in a price and time with one of the guys selling on LocalBitcoins, I decided to only give him $1500 of my hard earned money at a $1200 per BTC rate.

For several days, I left the $2500 cash in my car, and after that sale, for several weeks, I left the remaining $1000 in my car because I was considering another cash purchase of BTC.

Once my Coinbase account was activated, I started to use their easy wire transfer (and even accounting for the fees, their rates are better than the LocalBitcoin rates), so I keep the money transferring from my bank account to Coinbase. If my bank account starts to run low, then I transfer more dinero from my other investment accounts to my bank and then to Coinbase. For now, I’ve moved away from cash.

What about you, sam (cubed)?

Quote: (12-09-2013 03:39 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  

920 was for last night it never hit. Close though.

I think that it would have been a mistake to sell at $920… but what do I know? If you are ultimately increasing the number of BTC in your holding through your current methodology, then it seems to me that you are beating the averages.

Quote: (12-09-2013 03:39 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  

Jay Juan wow you're going to put 30k in there huh?

Yeah, maybe I am sharing too much personal numbers….. etc etc… … yet, I am trying to make the description a bit concrete, which seems to come with throwing out some numbers.

I mentioned my BTC investment plan earlier in one of my VOLUMINOUS postings. I mentioned my idea of employing dollar cost averaging with an asset that I anticipate to be fluctuating but largely moving up.
Since I have been becoming more and more bullish on the BTC idea; however, I have been considering larger and larger levels of front loading – though I remain torn about the idea of front loading, given the continued volatility and uncertain future of this asset class.

My intended 30K is NOT a large amount of my total investment portfolio… so it is money that I was otherwise considering putting into or keeping in the stock market (or mutual funds). Largely I am considering Bitcoins as a way to hedge some of my total investment against the dollar because currently, all of my investments are nearly completely dollar based. If the dollar tank, which seemed possible during the govt shut down, various debt “crisis” creations, etc, and the QE policies, then I could be completely screwed (along with a lot of other people), so in my opinion, it seems to be a good plan (practice) to have some of my investment(s) in non-dollar assets.

In the coming years, I hope to continue to live within my means and to continue to invest (whether bitcoins or something else), and anyhow, I anticipate on average my investment level would largely be between $1,000 and $2,000 per month – yet frequently, these kinds of quantities and considerations need to be adjusted based on total lifestyle factors.

Quote: (12-09-2013 04:54 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  

For several days, I left the $2500 cash in my car, and after that sale, for several weeks, I left the remaining $1000 in my car because I was considering another cash purchase of BTC.

License plate number and vehicle description?

On a serious note, I have been gathering gear to mine. I went for a cost effective rig so it isn't going to max out my space and free electricity opportunity. I find it fascinating, like a train wreck with some survivors but a lot of injured and dead. Sorry not trying to poopoo this at all. I just think you need to be careful. But interesting enough to make some. I'll break even in a couple of months hopefully and then just make them. Or, I have a great pc setup to download porn.

I invest in speculative things, but with some control. There is ZERO control in this other than buying and selling when you think it is appropriate.

But it is awesome to witness.

On a side note - does anyone know why the troll box on btc-e.com doesn't automatically scroll? Do I need to sign up?

Thanks.

samsamsam, can I ask you how much you paid for the mining rig? How many Ghz is it?

You need an account and have money in it. The money part is new because the trollbox was getting trolled too much.

Quote: (12-09-2013 05:06 PM)pants Wrote:  

samsamsam, can I ask you how much you paid for the mining rig? How many Ghz is it?

And what coins are you and can you mine?

pants, I am still building it. But just grabbed 3 7850s for about 320 after rebates, etc.

I got a case (because I can't be having a milk crate at the office). It is an Cooler Master HAF XB - a big square, a lot of guys who do use cases seem to use those.

I got a cheap sempron 145 cpu for like 40 bucks. 4gb mem 40 bucks.CPU has very little to do with an miner. I am going to use a usb stick.

My splurge was the mobo - since I wanted something that would be good if this didn't work out.

I am shooting for 950 KH/S maybe a bit more. Trying to get it all done for about 700 bucks. Per http://bitcoinwisdom.com/litecoin/calculator I should make 2.3 ltc a week. Keep in mind I got free juice. I know I should go nuts since I have free energy and payback periods look like 2 months but you can't even find the gpus to use they are selling out so quick.

If it doesn't work out, here would be the breakdown:

1) Sell cheap the ram and sempron - or make a htpc for my folks
2) Crossfire two of the 7850s and give one card to my buddy
3) I'd have an awesome case, a very good mobo and a solid psu (still need to track one down) - I'd grab an amd 8350 or something and take an hdd I have lying around and buy windows 7 pro and be set for a few years.

Not too much waste.

Thanks.

Edit: el mech - I am going to do lite coins but there are over 30 crytpo currencies out there. I will work through a pool since I don't have a high enough hashrate to do it on my own. Some pools just pick the most profitable that day and mine that and they pay out in btc. That is probably what I will do - I'll sell as soon as I can to get cashflow and once I break even I'll go 50/50 sell and keep.

I did not look to much into the numbers, so hard to say if it´s a good bet. EDIT: And it probably would have been really hard to say if I had a look at them.
But I hope you looked into the rise in mining difficulty as well. Litecoin equipment probably can stay longer in the game as ASIC miners are unuseful for litecoin mining.

http://bitcoinwisdom.com/litecoin/difficulty

Another good point about litecoin mining is the equipment is actually worth something besides mining, so the resell value will hold up.

If my bitcoin miner flops I´m left with a very expensive 1000W oven.

I get that mining difficulty is going up. But I am totally happy with a new PC. And the experience of trying it out. I don't look to this to make my fortune, I do do other things for that.

If I can get to break even in a year even - it would have been a worthwhile experience. I am always trying to learn something so this will be fun.

Quote: (12-08-2013 04:41 PM)svenski7 Wrote:  

Quote:pants Wrote:

To earn money from mining you need to consider several factors
- Cost of mining equipment
- cost of electricity
- Risks of investing in mining equipment(Will they deliver when they say they will?)
- Future hashrate(how many other people are mining?)
- Value of bitcoin.

Cost of electricity in the USA generally won't be a concern. It is a factor but it's unlikely going to be what makes mining unprofitable (read: exchange rate, mining difficulty).

With todays volatility you´re living on a thin edge if you need to include cost of electricity in your budget, so yes its pretty unimportant these days. I chose to include it in the economy as from a theoretical standpoint, in the endgame, if currencies will stabilize, cost of equipment will stabalize cost of electricity will be the most important factor.

I want to mine some junk coin. Which one? As supreme ruler at my work I informed my employees they will have to make it happen.

I think I'm figuring out a pattern. Two more days and I'll pm you guys if I'm right.