Quote: (02-27-2013 04:35 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

Re: Overtraining. Vast majority of guys are undertraining rather than overtraining. How many guys do you see who make gains in the gym, year after year? Very few. That's because they've been fed hysteria about overtraining and don't train with intensity.

Anyone every play high school football. By the logic of the overtraining crowd, two-a-days would have killed you. Instead your body got used to it, supercompensated, and you were fine.

Yes and there are also plenty of people who stop working out because they're putting in effort and not seeing the results. They are overworking certain muscle groups and not allowing their torn muscles the chance to regenerate properly therefore getting a less than ideal ROI.

This forum is not about being like the "average" or "majority" so I don't tailor my advice to them. Overtraining does exist and is very much a concern for those of us that actually work out. You could lift weights for two hours a day 5 days a week plus more and be fine (I do this myself btw, not knocking that particular regimen whatsoever). I could also take those same two hours and change the exercises to the point that you are very much overtraining.

Quote: (02-27-2013 05:11 PM)Enigma Wrote:  

This forum is not about being like the "average" or "majority" so I don't tailor my advice to them. Overtraining does exist and is very much a concern for those of us that actually work out. You could lift weights for two hours a day 5 days a week plus more and be fine (I do this myself btw, not knocking that particular regimen whatsoever). I could also take those same two hours and change the exercises to the point that you are very much overtraining.

Thanks bro. I'm thinking about joining a gym. Other than "working out too hard," what are some other pitfalls to avoid?

Quote: (02-27-2013 04:52 PM)Hannibal Wrote:  

Long distance running is a terrible idea in general. I'm not talking about guys who like to run two or three miles at a crack, I'm talking about marathon training.

I'll just cite this article here so I don't have a massive wall o' text.

http://chaosandpain.blogspot.com/2011/04...ience.html

Not safe for work. It's important to note that the article I cited isn't his only one on long distance training, there's about ten of them.

Let's say for example that this guy has no life and he quadrupled that amount. Let's say he worked out 8 hours a day.

This has been done by the Bulgarians for their olympic training. The remedy for that kind of training is to eat and sleep more and to never train to failure, which is precisely what Hades told the OP to do.

http://www.criticalbench.com/bulgarian-w...ifting.htm

Would you say that construction workers and stonemasons overtrain? A lot of them pick up some fairly heavy shit 8 to 10 hours a day on a diet of cheese and beer. I'm being completely serious here. If you got paid to work out for 8 hours a day five days a week, you would manage.

You can't do starting strength if you're not eating and sleeping properly. This guy wants to get big, he not only should train with a good workload, he should be informed that undereating and undersleeping are the main culprits behind the "dreaded overtraining plague".

Here's some more food for thought. This is not safe for work.

http://chaosandpain.blogspot.com/2010/05...2c830ead1a

You're basically all saying the same thing. "If you have a proper routine and maintain a healthy level of sleep and nutrition you won't overtrain" Duh. Does that mean overtraining doesn't exist? No.

2-3 miles? Run a fast 3 miles and do heavy squats every day 5 days a week and tell me how that works out for you. Maybe you don't get injured but I guarantee you aren't seeing the gains you could be on a more well-designed regime.

Quote: (02-27-2013 05:21 PM)Enigma Wrote:  

You're basically all saying the same thing. "If you have a proper routine and maintain a healthy level of sleep and nutrition you won't overtrain" Duh. Does that mean overtraining doesn't exist? No.

2-3 miles? Run a fast 3 miles and do heavy squats every day 5 days a week and tell me how that works out for you. Maybe you don't get injured but I guarantee you aren't seeing the gains you could be on a more well-designed regime.

Damn, bro, roid raging?

You must be really mad at John Broz:

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_arti..._every_day


There's no Such Thing as Overtraining
Broz believes that there's no such thing as being overtrained, just undertrained.

If you got a job as a garbage man and had to pick up heavy cans all day long, the first day would probably be very difficult, possibly almost impossible for some to complete. So what do you do, take three days off and possibly lose your job?

No, you'd take your sore, beaten self to work the next day. You'd mope around and be fatigued, much less energetic than the previous day, but you'd make yourself get through it. Then you'd get home, soak in the tub, take aspirin, etc. The next day would be even worse.

But eventually you'd be running down the street tossing cans around and joking with your coworkers. How did this happen? You forced your body to adapt to the job at hand! If you can't' squat and lift heavy every day you're not overtrained, you're undertrained! Could a random person off the street come to the gym with you and do your exact workout? Probably not, because they're undertrained. Same goes with most lifters when compared to elite athletes.

– John Broz 2002

Work out until you get tired.

Stop if you get hurt.

Eat healthy food if you're hungry.

Sleep well at night.

Am I missing something here?

Quote: (02-27-2013 05:17 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

Quote: (02-27-2013 05:11 PM)Enigma Wrote:  

This forum is not about being like the "average" or "majority" so I don't tailor my advice to them. Overtraining does exist and is very much a concern for those of us that actually work out. You could lift weights for two hours a day 5 days a week plus more and be fine (I do this myself btw, not knocking that particular regimen whatsoever). I could also take those same two hours and change the exercises to the point that you are very much overtraining.

Thanks bro. I'm thinking about joining a gym. Other than "working out too hard," what are some other pitfalls to avoid?

Exercise science doesn't exist everyone. Just go to the gym 7 days a week and lift as much as possible. You'll be ripped in a month or two.

Quote: (02-27-2013 05:23 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

Quote: (02-27-2013 05:21 PM)Enigma Wrote:  

You're basically all saying the same thing. "If you have a proper routine and maintain a healthy level of sleep and nutrition you won't overtrain" Duh. Does that mean overtraining doesn't exist? No.

2-3 miles? Run a fast 3 miles and do heavy squats every day 5 days a week and tell me how that works out for you. Maybe you don't get injured but I guarantee you aren't seeing the gains you could be on a more well-designed regime.

Damn, bro, roid raging?

You must be really mad at John Broz:

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_arti..._every_day


There's no Such Thing as Overtraining
Broz believes that there's no such thing as being overtrained, just undertrained.

If you got a job as a garbage man and had to pick up heavy cans all day long, the first day would probably be very difficult, possibly almost impossible for some to complete. So what do you do, take three days off and possibly lose your job?

No, you'd take your sore, beaten self to work the next day. You'd mope around and be fatigued, much less energetic than the previous day, but you'd make yourself get through it. Then you'd get home, soak in the tub, take aspirin, etc. The next day would be even worse.

But eventually you'd be running down the street tossing cans around and joking with your coworkers. How did this happen? You forced your body to adapt to the job at hand! If you can't' squat and lift heavy every day you're not overtrained, you're undertrained! Could a random person off the street come to the gym with you and do your exact workout? Probably not, because they're undertrained. Same goes with most lifters when compared to elite athletes.

– John Broz 2002

This just in: the human body can lift trash cans and is therefore indestructible. Bros never get injured or die.

Thanks to MikeCF for the scoop.

Quote: (02-27-2013 05:25 PM)Enigma Wrote:  



Exercise science doesn't exist everyone. Just go to the gym 7 days a week and lift as much as possible. You'll be ripped in a month or two.

Aww...That's cute. So you've read a bunch of articles on the Internet. Are you working to become an "A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer"?

Here's another person who disagrees with your beta training advice:

"A beginner does eight repetitions of a certain exercise with his maximum weight on the barbell. As soon as it hurts, he thinks about stopping. I work beyond this point, which means I tell my mind that as soon as it starts aching it is growing. Growing is something unusual for the body when you are over eighteen. The body isn’t used to ten, eleven, or twelve reps with a maximum weight. Then I do ten or fifteen sets of this in a row. No human body was ever prepared for this and suddenly it is making itself grow to handle this new challenge, growing through this pain area. Experiencing this pain in my muscles and aching and going on is my challenge. The last three or four reps is what makes the muscles grow. This area of pain divides a champion from someone who is not a champion. That’s what most people lack, having the guts to go on and just say they’ll go through the pain no matter what happens. I have no fear of fainting. I do squats until I fall over and pass out. So what? It’s not going to kill me. I wake up five minutes later and I’m OK. A lot of other athletes are afraid of this. So they don’t pass out. They don’t go on."

MikeCF what about CNS burnout????? is that the same as overtraining?????

Heres my training schedule:

Monday:

flat bench 135 for 3 sets of 8
dumbbell bench 60s for the same
db bicep curls 30 3x12 (I use a lot of body motion to get those last reps in!!!)

Wednesday
db flyes with 20lb
more bench press
skullcrushers with 70lbs

Friday: LEG DAY BROO!!!!! !
quarter squats with the foam pad. 135 x 5 x3
quarter leg press with 3 FUCKING PLATES!!!!
more bicep curls.


then I get drunk friday, eat shitty food and then play an hour of road hockey downing 12 beers on saturday.

Do you think I'm suffering from CNS burnout? I eat mcdonalds a lot to get those calories in and I stay up till 3am jerking it to brazzers, but that shouldn't affect it right? I've been tired and lethargic all week.

Quote: (02-27-2013 05:30 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

Quote: (02-27-2013 05:25 PM)Enigma Wrote:  



Exercise science doesn't exist everyone. Just go to the gym 7 days a week and lift as much as possible. You'll be ripped in a month or two.

Aww...That's cute. So you've read a bunch of articles on the Internet. Are you working to become an "A.C.E. Certified Personal Trainer"?

Here's another person who disagrees with your beta training advice:

"A beginner does eight repetitions of a certain exercise with his maximum weight on the barbell. As soon as it hurts, he thinks about stopping. I work beyond this point, which means I tell my mind that as soon as it starts aching it is growing. Growing is something unusual for the body when you are over eighteen. The body isn’t used to ten, eleven, or twelve reps with a maximum weight. Then I do ten or fifteen sets of this in a row. No human body was ever prepared for this and suddenly it is making itself grow to handle this new challenge, growing through this pain area. Experiencing this pain in my muscles and aching and going on is my challenge. The last three or four reps is what makes the muscles grow. This area of pain divides a champion from someone who is not a champion. That’s what most people lack, having the guts to go on and just say they’ll go through the pain no matter what happens. I have no fear of fainting. I do squats until I fall over and pass out. So what? It’s not going to kill me. I wake up five minutes later and I’m OK. A lot of other athletes are afraid of this. So they don’t pass out. They don’t go on."

That random internet quote with not so much as a source really showed me the light bro thanks.

I'm going to agree to disagree rather than watch this conversation further devolve into a pissing contest.

"You worried about overtraining? You worried about working, mothafucka" - CT Fletcher.

"You could lift weights for two hours a day 5 days a week plus more and be fine (I do this myself btw, not knocking that particular regimen whatsoever)."

If you're doing as we've said, then you just contradicted your own argument. Three to five training sessions a week for the OP is not going to ruin him.

Quote: (02-27-2013 05:23 PM)MaleDefined Wrote:  

Work out until you get tired.

Stop if you get hurt.

Eat healthy food if you're hungry.

Sleep well at night.

Am I missing something here?

Do your very best to use good form and figure out what's comfortable for you.

I don't know what the other folks in this thread say, but I never train to failure because training to failure makes a shitshow to recover from. If your max is 100 lbs in a lift, you should be lifting at least 85-90 lbs and stop a rep or two below failure. Then do a shitload of sets. That's what I've learned and it works for me.

Cold showers and drinking plenty of water help recovery. I also try not to do the same exact lift two days in a row.

Quote: (02-27-2013 05:36 PM)Enigma Wrote:  

That random internet quote with not so much as a source really showed me the light bro thanks.

I'm going to agree to disagree rather than watch this conversation further devolve into a pissing contest.

The correspondence course "certified personal trainer" with 13" arms considers Arnold a random internet source.

You sir have said more than enough.

Getting bigger is easy. Just train and increase your cals & carb intake. If this doesnt fill your muscles with glycogen you are doing it wrong.

Sh*t.

I'm still gettin swole off bread and water.

Quote: (02-27-2013 04:31 PM)Enigma Wrote:  

So because you can work out 2 hours for 5 days a week with proper rest and nutrition it is impossible to overtrain?

What if you doubled, tripled, quadrupled that amount? What if you trained for marathons while also squatting for 5 hours a day? You're basically saying you won't overtrain if you don't overtrain. That is not the same thing as overtraining being an impossibility.

Quote: (02-27-2013 05:43 PM)Hannibal Wrote:  

"You could lift weights for two hours a day 5 days a week plus more and be fine (I do this myself btw, not knocking that particular regimen whatsoever)."

If you're doing as we've said, then you just contradicted your own argument. Three to five training sessions a week for the OP is not going to ruin him.

Where exactly did I say there was anything wrong with that routine? Y'all are taking lifting weights 5 days per week being possible and extrapolating that into overtraining being impossible. It's flawed logic. What Hades described isn't even particularly taxing on the body in my opinion.

But significantly increase that load and you are suddenly in a whole other ball park where you are either not getting the full benefits of your workout by not allowing your body to recover or you are injuring your body. Do you think lifting weights 5 hours/day every day is a good idea? How about if you sleep 10 hours, eat and rest for 4, and lift weights the other 10? Are you going to get 5 bigger than the guy that had a very demanding yet more reasonable approach? No, no, no.

Give your body all it can take but be smart about it.

OK Enigma I would reply better but I am short on time and might make a blog post about it since I've been lazy as shit.

Two examples that thwart the overtraining model are bulgarian weightlifters (honestly almost all soviet weightlifters were demanded to treat lifting like a full time job) and manual labor jobs like dock workers and masons.

I'll use Vasily Alekseyev as an example for a soviet lifter. His contemporaries would usually throw around about 20 tons of volume per workout (if I'm not mistaken they would work out five to seven days a week), while Vasily would put up 40 tons on a regular basis, because he was insane and believed more strongly in how he understood his body's reaction to stress than to Soviet weightlifting protocols, and that pushed him to heights that nobody previously had.

Jamie Lewis on chaosandpain goes into enormous depth relating the Eastern concept of staleness to what we think of as overtraining (this is worth a google) and why having the concept of overtraining exist is one of the biggest pitfalls of all newbie lifters, who if they didn't know any better would make bigger gains. There's nothing I could write that he hasn't already done better. People's underappreciation for the capacity of people to adjust to a high workout volume and overappreciation for how much work they do in the gym are at fault here. I'm going to go rub one out and go lifting.

/////
If you trained for marathons while squatting 5 hours a day you'd die tired and never break a plate on the squat. Those two are like contradictory goals.

Boost your T levels for better recovery. Zinc has given me raging hard-ons. It's amazing how much better you feel all around when your T levels are higher.

Overtraining is a myth. Take a minute and watch.

To gain muscle, NO MATTER WHAT, you need to do these things:

1) eat over your daily calorie maintenance
2) increase weight/resistance lifting over time

A 200 lbs male should be taking 150g of protein a day, minimum. If you lift and you are not taking enough protein you are being massively counter productive. Especially since its so easy to make a protein shake and much more difficult to lift weights.

Worrying about overtraining is one of those small things that you shouldn't be concerned with. Dont confuse over training with allowing a muscle group a few days break to repair itself.

Enigma no offense but i think now might be a good time to stop posting..
Since this post was originally about protein consumption would anyone make a new thread so we can debate about training frequency...
Mikecf do you think broz athletes are natty? Also dont you think you might end up tearing something if you dont let your muscles fully repair? Ive read a lot of articles about this but i dont want to start posting about training methods that i have never done so if anyone have personally done such routines i would like to know what were your results

I remember two eminent broz being caught using whatever. Google "broz hgh".

Quote: (02-27-2013 12:14 PM)Bad Hussar Wrote:  

Quote: (02-27-2013 11:25 AM)Hades Wrote:  

....
Keep in mind that overtraining is not real if you eat and sleep enough.

Hades
Can you expand on this perhaps?

I'm currently on the stronglifts 5x5 program, but only started a couple of months back. I'm having real issues with the 3x per week squats. In my opinion I'm never resting my legs and am in a more or less constant state of muscular fatigue. My pulse is also a little elevated (by around 5 bpm) which I understand is a sign of over training.

Any tips aside from eating and sleeping sufficiently to deal with week after week of hard workouts?

You'll be fine, I've run much harder routines than that in the past.

When you deadlift 3x a week, you can start concerning yourself about overtraining.

Otherwise, if you're a healthy man who isn't over 60 you have nothing to worry about, there are women on stronglifts!

The human body can adapt to almost anything. It really is a crazy machine. If you've never trained before, and jump into lifting 10 hours a week, and a combat sport, or anything physical, for another 10 hours a week, your body probably won't be so nice to you.

However, if you ramp up to this level over the course of weeks/months, your body can adapt to it and you won't overtrain. When I first started Jiu Jitsu my body was fucked just from 2x a week. A year later I was doing BJJ 4x a week and also doing starting strength 3x a week and could have trained even more. Had I done that from the very start, when I was very sedentary, I would have been in a world of hurt.

Your body adapts much quicker than most people think though, or at least mine does. Had I wanted to, I believe I could have done BJJ and startin strength together much sooner than I did. I'm fairly sure my body would have adapted to it. A lot of people come to Thailand after being sedentary and jump into 3 month long Muay Thai camps doing 2 a days. They are able to ramp up to that level very quickly. Many of them get worn down and sick one or so the first month, but their bodies adjust very quickly and in three months they are in great shape.

Actually have overtraining as a topic for an upcoming blog-post. But just a few short points on that subject. Having spent 5-6 weeks preparing for a short-deadline competition in CF, I ramped up my intensity and workload by a factor 4-6, and was absolutely not sedantary up until that point. I was really impressed as to how much the body is able to adapt, as long as you keep a few things in mind.

Can you overtrain, and/or get into a state of overtraining - I believe so - I touched close to it, read the signs, and was back in full effect within a day or two. However it was my own fault, and I now know how to avoid it.

Keeping adequate sleep, enough good quality food - then you can really push it, and I mean REALLY push it.

Keeping to many distractions, too much stress from work, life, whatever - then you will within a short period of time feel a dip in motivation towards the training goals that before made you all fired up - your body's way of telling you to relax a little.

But I totally agree that 98% of people who worry about overtraining are by no means training hard enough to get even close.

You guys should also remember to keep the goal in mind. Yes, the body can keep adapting to whatever you throw at it - does is mean that this is the best approach for gaining muscle or the best approach for gaining strength - probably not.