I've gone through the several posts of mine made during the last comeback, and I don't feel like I'm contributing to this community anymore. I've been there for a while, and enjoyed the wisdom of some really cool people. But now it feels more and more like arguing about some basics, and sometime there's an impression we're on different sides regarding the same issues.

An old dude I've talked to the last night who went for several hours describing his life kind of opened my eyes about what's going on. Let me summarize it here as it explains why it doesn't make any sense to discuss those things further:

- Your lays don't come from game. What we call "game" is basically trying to find out the inner self, and keep the peace with it. "Just be yourself" - a typically wrong advice often given to newbies (wrong only because they won't understand it) means "find your inner self". Some people get there with game, some with meditation, some simply grow up. And once you're there, you don't need game anymore. It is just the vehicle to bring you there. You can't get better in game, it is not like driving, it is more like eating.

- A lot of guys try to get laid just because of the social pressure. They don't even need it, they won't even have the necessary energy for it. Make sure you aren't one of them. Calm down for a moment, and think - am I satisfying MY needs, or I'm actually spending my life to satisfy SOMEONE's (friends, family, society) expectations? The society needs it for several reasons, but the main one is the red convertible BMW. How many guys you think would buy one if they didn't give shit about getting laid at all?

- Many people have unrealistic expectations about what is possible to achieve. No matter how hard you try and how good you are, you will NEVER be able to attract EVERY girl you meet. This is an impossible goal; pickup is eventually the bargain shopping, no matter how good you are in bargaining, you'll never always get the deal on your terms.

- The only rule is that there are no rules. Most of the things you read in the books are meaningless. You can open with "what do you drink". You can have the interview-style conversation. You can fail the shit tests all the time. This all doesn't matter as long as you are what you are, and not playing someone else. Different things work for different people, and unless you're the same type as Mystery, the "mystery method" would not work for you. Find your way, and find your audience.

- Every woman has value. Her "value" is the combination of money, time, efforts, status and other things you have to put in, and unless you put this in, you won't get her. The older is the woman, the better she knows her price, the more realistic she is about it, and the more likely she's gonna stick to it. Young girls very rarely know their value, and same as bad sellers tend to set it up unrealistically high, which could be then bargained for much less of what she's really worth. A key in success is to learn how to estimate the value a woman assigned to herself, and go for those who would accept what you're willing to put in.

- Manosphere is doomed. The society has changed. As it happened zillion times back in history, a lot of people are unhappy about those changes, and they try to fight them back. As it happened zillion times back in history, they always lose. You have two choices - either adapt or extinct. "The manosphere" in its current state is not going to achieve anything at all exactly because they try to fight instead of adapt.

Thank you everyone for the good time, for the advice and the discussions. If anyone got offended, this wasn't the intention and please accept my apologies. In any case good luck to all you guys!

Hey, you've started contributing again. Welcome back.

Take it easy Oldnem. You were a contrarian voice on this forum and you loved to grill me, but all in all I enjoyed having you around.

I disagree with your definition of game, and I think your argument lacks nuance, but I agree with the spirit of your points. There is a lot in the game industry which is pure bullshit.

Quote:Quote:

- Manosphere is doomed. The society has changed. As it happened zillion times back in history, a lot of people are unhappy about those changes, and they try to fight them back. As it happened zillion times back in history, they always lose. You have two choices - either adapt or extinct. "The manosphere" in its current state is not going to achieve anything at all exactly because they try to fight instead of adapt.

Give me one more post old man. What changes are happening to society that are irreversible? The decline of marriage? The advent of cradle-to-grave government? Exactly what kind of changes are you talking about, and which ones is the Manosphere fighting...?

Manosphere is a big place full of random dudes who disagree about everything, you gotta be more specific...

Good luck sir. Your post is dripping with apathy, though -- you probably didn't mean it to come off that way, but it's kind of a big bummer.

Quote:oldnemesis Wrote:

This all doesn't matter as long as you are what you are, and not playing someone else.

But what are you supposed to do if who you are is undesirable to everyone? Jump off a bridge?

While the gist of your points is accurate, I can't help but feel that most of them come from either setting impossible standards or being relative to the extreme.

Still, I wish you good luck and all the best.

Quote: (11-26-2012 04:34 AM)oldnemesis Wrote:  

- A lot of guys try to get laid just because of the social pressure. They don't even need it, they won't even have the necessary energy for it. Make sure you aren't one of them. Calm down for a moment, and think - am I satisfying MY needs, or I'm actually spending my life to satisfy SOMEONE's (friends, family, society) expectations?

This is actually an excellent point.

I don't know if it will count, but I'll offer my two cents here. Oldnem, I think your point of view is quite valid, welcome, and (most importantly) needed here. There are some very strong points you make that, while not always in line with standard manosphere tropes (many of which I agree must be challenged) are quite accurate and important consider.

The point noted by Prophylaxis above me regarding the desire to get laid and its relation to social pressure, to use an example, is extremely important and highly overlooked. I came to learn the truth of it myself the hard way, and I think you do much good in bringing it to light so others can see it.

I respect your decision if you do decide to leave but I think that would be quite an unfortunate outcome, especially given your stated reason for doing so:

Quote:Quote:

"I don't feel like I'm contributing to this community anymore."

As I just stated above, this feeling is simply not accurate. Your opposing viewpoints do provide a strong contribution to the community that I think is useful to the maintenance of its intellectual integrity.

Just my opinion.

I think heated words are sometimes exchanged here and when that happens it discourages guys from posting further.

I did get the opportunity to meet oldnem and I think he's a valuable part of the community. It would be a shame for him to leave.

Quote:Quote:

- A lot of guys try to get laid just because of the social pressure.

Yes, true. I would estimate to 70%.

All points are true in my opinion.

Quote: (11-26-2012 04:34 AM)oldnemesis Wrote:  

I've gone through the several posts of mine made during the last comeback, and I don't feel like I'm contributing to this community anymore. I've been there for a while, and enjoyed the wisdom of some really cool people. But now it feels more and more like arguing about some basics, and sometime there's an impression we're on different sides regarding the same issues.

An old dude I've talked to the last night who went for several hours describing his life kind of opened my eyes about what's going on. Let me summarize it here as it explains why it doesn't make any sense to discuss those things further:

- Your lays don't come from game. What we call "game" is basically trying to find out the inner self, and keep the peace with it. "Just be yourself" - a typically wrong advice often given to newbies (wrong only because they won't understand it) means "find your inner self". Some people get there with game, some with meditation, some simply grow up. And once you're there, you don't need game anymore. It is just the vehicle to bring you there. You can't get better in game, it is not like driving, it is more like eating.

- A lot of guys try to get laid just because of the social pressure. They don't even need it, they won't even have the necessary energy for it. Make sure you aren't one of them. Calm down for a moment, and think - am I satisfying MY needs, or I'm actually spending my life to satisfy SOMEONE's (friends, family, society) expectations? The society needs it for several reasons, but the main one is the red convertible BMW. How many guys you think would buy one if they didn't give shit about getting laid at all?

- Many people have unrealistic expectations about what is possible to achieve. No matter how hard you try and how good you are, you will NEVER be able to attract EVERY girl you meet. This is an impossible goal; pickup is eventually the bargain shopping, no matter how good you are in bargaining, you'll never always get the deal on your terms.

- The only rule is that there are no rules. Most of the things you read in the books are meaningless. You can open with "what do you drink". You can have the interview-style conversation. You can fail the shit tests all the time. This all doesn't matter as long as you are what you are, and not playing someone else. Different things work for different people, and unless you're the same type as Mystery, the "mystery method" would not work for you. Find your way, and find your audience.

- Every woman has value. Her "value" is the combination of money, time, efforts, status and other things you have to put in, and unless you put this in, you won't get her. The older is the woman, the better she knows her price, the more realistic she is about it, and the more likely she's gonna stick to it. Young girls very rarely know their value, and same as bad sellers tend to set it up unrealistically high, which could be then bargained for much less of what she's really worth. A key in success is to learn how to estimate the value a woman assigned to herself, and go for those who would accept what you're willing to put in.

- Manosphere is doomed. The society has changed. As it happened zillion times back in history, a lot of people are unhappy about those changes, and they try to fight them back. As it happened zillion times back in history, they always lose. You have two choices - either adapt or extinct. "The manosphere" in its current state is not going to achieve anything at all exactly because they try to fight instead of adapt.

Thank you everyone for the good time, for the advice and the discussions. If anyone got offended, this wasn't the intention and please accept my apologies. In any case good luck to all you guys!

I do hope if you're really leaving the forum, that you'll drop in occasionally atleast to let everyone know how you're doing.

Perhaps this will be a break to give you new perspective and knowledge to come back and share.

Quote:Quote:

- Your lays don't come from game. What we call "game" is basically trying to find out the inner self, and keep the peace with it. "Just be yourself" - a typically wrong advice often given to newbies (wrong only because they won't understand it) means "find your inner self". Some people get there with game, some with meditation, some simply grow up. And once you're there, you don't need game anymore. It is just the vehicle to bring you there. You can't get better in game, it is not like driving, it is more like eating.

This is something I've been wanting to discuss lately but you beat me to it. Greatly summarized as well.

Wish you luck in all your endeavors OldNem, and really hope you come to drop some good stuff from time to time.

I have agreed with Oldnemesis' more controversial views more often than not. The community is better with than without him as few people here hold the wisdom from his life experience. Granted he's older than most posters but age by itself is no guarantee for gaining clarity.

Too bad you don’t feel like hanging around.

Couldn't agree more..

I think oldnemesis may be one to leave RVF and not go to NNF.

I wish you the best oldnemesis, you make some valid and mature points on your last post.

I pretty much only browse the Lifestyle and Everything Else sections on here anymore.

Quote: (11-26-2012 11:43 AM)Cr33pin Wrote:  

I wish you the best oldnemesis, you make some valid and mature points on your last post.

I pretty much only browse the Lifestyle and Everything Else sections on here anymore.

Me too. I don't visit much the Game board anymore. Not to come off as cocky, but I now feel like I don't need any answers regarding 'Game' anymore, I don't need to know how you are 'supposed' to do things. And regarding the questions that eventually pop up, I just let them be and try to answer them by myself with my own experiences.

OldNem, what's next for you?

Quote: (11-26-2012 01:23 PM)FretDancer Wrote:  

Quote: (11-26-2012 11:43 AM)Cr33pin Wrote:  

I wish you the best oldnemesis, you make some valid and mature points on your last post.

I pretty much only browse the Lifestyle and Everything Else sections on here anymore.

Me too. I don't visit much the Game board anymore. Not to come off as cocky, but I now feel like I don't need any answers regarding 'Game' anymore, I don't need to know how you are 'supposed' to do things. And regarding the questions that eventually pop up, I just let them be and try to answer them by myself with my own experiences.

That's exactly what I do too. The difference is, instead of using the Game forums to try and leech value from others, I instead make threads there from time to time offering advice on things I've learned.

For what it's worth, I've always enjoyed reading your posts.

Your posts are always stimulating and because I believe you're in a LTR and not apologizing for it, I think the forum really benefits from that viewpoint, especially since the sponsor (Roosh) has a pretty different viewpoint and doesn't seem to look for LTR.

The ideas of the more ONS oriented members help me learn about starting things up with women, but we also need the ideas of guys who know how to keep things going.

Honestly, I find these farewell posts a bit petty and grandiose, perhaps a kind of attention whoring. My impression of OldNemesis is that he was more intent on fashioning an identity as a contrarian than actually presenting arguments and decently considering those of others. His tone is consistently derisive and imperious. I don't give credence to someone merely because they flout the received wisdom. He plays into the fear that your beliefs are wrong, and that you'll acquire a higher level of consciousness by rejecting them.

It's always good to have some dissent, as research has shown people are more comfortable dissenting when someone else has already publicly done so. And it can be both respectful and effective.

Quote: (11-26-2012 02:46 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

Honestly, I find these farewell posts a bit petty and grandiose, perhaps a kind of attention whoring.

This is the proper term.

https://encyclopediadramatica.se/Flounce

Quote: (11-26-2012 01:23 PM)FretDancer Wrote:  

Quote: (11-26-2012 11:43 AM)Cr33pin Wrote:  

I wish you the best oldnemesis, you make some valid and mature points on your last post.

I pretty much only browse the Lifestyle and Everything Else sections on here anymore.

Me too. I don't visit much the Game board anymore. Not to come off as cocky, but I now feel like I don't need any answers regarding 'Game' anymore, I don't need to know how you are 'supposed' to do things. And regarding the questions that eventually pop up, I just let them be and try to answer them by myself with my own experiences.

I have also found myself not going to the game forum as much.

I had a thread there once and now my mind is not even interested anymore.

I think game is a great foundation to become a man, it puts you on a path and then when that part is done and you already know what to do ( read, exercise, learn stuff, dress well, know how to interact with females) you just get past it and don't really need anything more from it.

I am really grateful i discovered game but I feel that now the only thing I can learn are based on my everyday life.

Quote: (11-26-2012 04:34 AM)oldnemesis Wrote:  

An old dude I've talked to the last night who went for several hours describing his life kind of opened my eyes about what's going on. Let me summarize it here as it explains why it doesn't make any sense to discuss those things further:

As an old dude, let me take up your points.

Quote: (11-26-2012 04:34 AM)oldnemesis Wrote:  

- Your lays don't come from game. What we call "game" is basically trying to find out the inner self, and keep the peace with it. "Just be yourself" - a typically wrong advice often given to newbies (wrong only because they won't understand it) means "find your inner self". Some people get there with game, some with meditation, some simply grow up. And once you're there, you don't need game anymore. It is just the vehicle to bring you there. You can't get better in game, it is not like driving, it is more like eating.

Sorry, but this is what I would grade as a D minus insight. You can get better at interacting with women. Just reading up on Evo Psych and internalizing the insights will make you better. No one here is necessarily going to be Mystery or Roissy, but these guys do have knowledge that you may not have which can be put to use. You can get better with practice. True, you do have to be comfortable with who you are, but, yes, you CAN fake sincerity and power (having done it, I know). And the eating analogy is false. Eating, shitting, pissing, sleeping, are bodily requirements, functions. Social interactions are both innate AND cultural, inborn AND learned.

Quote: (11-26-2012 04:34 AM)oldnemesis Wrote:  

- A lot of guys try to get laid just because of the social pressure. They don't even need it, they won't even have the necessary energy for it. Make sure you aren't one of them. Calm down for a moment, and think - am I satisfying MY needs, or I'm actually spending my life to satisfy SOMEONE's (friends, family, society) expectations? The society needs it for several reasons, but the main one is the red convertible BMW. How many guys you think would buy one if they didn't give shit about getting laid at all?

My response to this is "so what?" The real question is "are your motivations self-destructive or delusional?" If a forum member wants to get to 100 notches because he thinks it would be fun to post about it here and get the applause of the community, I say more power to him. Personally, I happen to like fucking, and I get a charge out of being 60 and banging a pussy better than a whole army of 25 year olds with tons more testosterone than me. I like fucking married women in particular because it confirms to me the hypergamous nature of females, and tampers down any romantic illusions I might have about women. I get a charge out of it, apart from busting my nut, because it is in keeping with my existential view of the man-woman dynamic. Anybody is welcome to think that this attitude of mine is good, bad, or indifferent, but I don't give a rat's ass.

Quote: (11-26-2012 04:34 AM)oldnemesis Wrote:  

- Many people have unrealistic expectations about what is possible to achieve. No matter how hard you try and how good you are, you will NEVER be able to attract EVERY girl you meet. This is an impossible goal; pickup is eventually the bargain shopping, no matter how good you are in bargaining, you'll never always get the deal on your terms.

I think you are right about "unrealistic expectations" -- I find it amusing over in my 40-somethings thread how posters diss these older chicks, but would fuck them in a minute if they had the chance. Of course, who on here has said here that you are going to attract EVERY girl you meet? This is a strawman.

Quote: (11-26-2012 04:34 AM)oldnemesis Wrote:  

- The only rule is that there are no rules. Most of the things you read in the books are meaningless. You can open with "what do you drink". You can have the interview-style conversation. You can fail the shit tests all the time. This all doesn't matter as long as you are what you are, and not playing someone else. Different things work for different people, and unless you're the same type as Mystery, the "mystery method" would not work for you. Find your way, and find your audience.

Well, there may not be "rules" but there are "laws." The law of female hypergamy and other principles of evo-psych and neurolinguistics. The law of the hamster and all of its corollaries. This forum, and other sources, are indispensable for learning about these laws and gathering insights into your own ways of dealing with women. The rest of what you say here, alas, is so vague and general as to be unhelpful.

Quote: (11-26-2012 04:34 AM)oldnemesis Wrote:  

- Every woman has value. Her "value" is the combination of money, time, efforts, status and other things you have to put in, and unless you put this in, you won't get her. The older is the woman, the better she knows her price, the more realistic she is about it, and the more likely she's gonna stick to it. Young girls very rarely know their value, and same as bad sellers tend to set it up unrealistically high, which could be then bargained for much less of what she's really worth. A key in success is to learn how to estimate the value a woman assigned to herself, and go for those who would accept what you're willing to put in.

Yep. But you still have to generate the tingle.

Quote: (11-26-2012 04:34 AM)oldnemesis Wrote:  

- Manosphere is doomed. The society has changed. As it happened zillion times back in history, a lot of people are unhappy about those changes, and they try to fight them back. As it happened zillion times back in history, they always lose. You have two choices - either adapt or extinct. "The manosphere" in its current state is not going to achieve anything at all exactly because they try to fight instead of adapt.

Not sure what you mean here. But the reality is the world we live in here -- in this forum, in Roissy, and in the blogs -- will be here for a long time. Maybe at some point Roosh will move on, but there will be others that take up the banner. The reason?

Game, when practiced right, works.