Quote: (04-22-2019 07:58 AM)CynicalContrarian Wrote:  

Quote: (04-22-2019 07:08 AM)Que enspastic Wrote:  

I believe in the Greek Gods even though I’m not Greek and even though people think it’s cool to only latch onto Jew God / Bible God / Quran God

Whatever

Poiseidon is my man

As I recall. Zeus & co. did not create the universe.
Who did, in ancient Greek mythology?

Primordial deities, which are grandparents of Olympian gods and parents of Titans.

Quote: (04-22-2019 08:45 AM)sterling_archer Wrote:  

Quote: (04-22-2019 07:58 AM)CynicalContrarian Wrote:  

As I recall. Zeus & co. did not create the universe.
Who did, in ancient Greek mythology?

Primordial deities, which are grandparents of Olympian gods and parents of Titans.

Oh man.
All that effort, yet none of the recognition nor respect...

Any Easterner would look at Jesus and recognize instantly that he had become Enlightened and has the direct personal experience of God that they call bodhi or satori. It's a shame that much of Jesus' message was kinda lost in translation, but understandable as well, after all you can only communicate with other people using terms that they can connect with in their own personal experience, and if someone has not experienced God directly then there's no way to describe it. Imagine explaining sex to a virgin boy, how would you do it? What terms would you use? In the end, do you think that you could adequately represent the experience to another person?

Fortunately, the core of Jesus' revolutionary message was preserved: the fundamental nature of God is love, which is the impulse that drives all of creation, 'God is your father', meaning that the core of your own being is comprised of the same fundamental spark or driving impulse, and that growing up to become an incarnation of God, 'in carnate': in the flesh, God manifested in the physical world, is your own personal destiny.

p.s. there is nothing to be saved from, hence no need for a 'savior'. Lots of pre-Enlightened mythology was glommed onto Jesus' core message, methinks a lot of it was by Saul of Tarsus (Paul).

Quote: (04-23-2019 07:40 AM)johnreed Wrote:  

Any Easterner would look at Jesus and recognize instantly that he had become Enlightened and has the direct personal experience of God that they call bodhi or satori. It's a shame that much of Jesus' message was kinda lost in translation, but understandable as well, after all you can only communicate with other people using terms that they can connect with in their own personal experience, and if someone has not experienced God directly then there's no way to describe it. Imagine explaining sex to a virgin boy, how would you do it? What terms would you use? In the end, do you think that you could adequately represent the experience to another person?

Fortunately, the core of Jesus' revolutionary message was preserved: the fundamental nature of God is love, which is the impulse that drives all of creation, 'God is your father', meaning that the core of your own being is comprised of the same fundamental spark or driving impulse, and that growing up to become an incarnation of God, 'in carnate': in the flesh, God manifested in the physical world, is your own personal destiny.

p.s. there is nothing to be saved from, hence no need for a 'savior'. Lots of pre-Enlightened mythology was glommed onto Jesus' core message, methinks a lot of it was by Saul of Tarsus (Paul).

Jesus quoted extensively from the Old Testament and only from it does he quote indicating sole reliance on the Old Testament. The Old Testament talked about the Messiah extensively who would also be God(Isaiah 9:6)

Whilst there is many commonalities due to the general knowledge of God that men had.

There are so many differences like the rejection of reincarnation and all the other beliefs the Old Testament rejects.

@johnreed

Again we are in accord! However, you’re missing the one and only thing to be saved from. Yourself!

The root word of Mashiach is MaSaR - a screen or curtain. Imagine, in the desert, you strung your tent with brilliant emerald silk. All the light filtered through would take on that verdant hue. The Abrahamic tradition sees the world as light within light within light till tire. The Mashiach serves us similarly to that curtain - He is a screen which we place between ourselves and the World, such that the light emanated from the World is filtered through His understanding, and the Light we project is lensed through Him as well.

Through this act of keeping Him at the forefront of your perception, you safeguard yourself from ‘yourself’ - yet, what are we? In this same tradition, a Man is a layering of lights as well, the core of us bright and brilliant source clothed in layer upon layer of inconsistencies and preferences. It is here that the Demoniac works through conscupience as Anonymous Bosch has so eloquently elucidated time and time again. MaShYaCh MaSaR H’AVR - Messiah Screens the Light.

I don't believe in the notion of 'God' or at least our notion of God.

I'm not some nihilistic atheist fag, but I don't think the conceptions we've seen - big bearded guy, burning bush, Siddhartha Gautama sitting under a tree, Hindu elephant thing are God and what's out there.

But nevertheless given what we know about the universe, which is probably not much but we do know the size and relative scope, humanity has shaped belief systems based on the world around us, and this is why while I can respect many of the teachings of some religions, like how my niece goes to a Christian day care and they tell her to be kind and respect others, or how Buddhism teaches how nothing good or bad is ever permanent, is why I think that religion thru and thru is ultimately geocentric and therefore ultimately wrong, but that's not to say wrong equals false; I won't deny that it does good for some of the people that follow it.

If you're a Christian and it works for you, good for you. If you're a Hindu and it works for you, good for you. If you're a Buddhist and it works for you and you aren't some affluent west coast poseur, good for you. If you're a Muslim and it works for you and you don't want to blow me up and think Muslims who blow people up are evil, good for you.

There's definitely something bigger than us out there, probably multiple things bigger than us.

Quote: (04-23-2019 11:19 AM)Nonpareil Wrote:  

I don't believe in the notion of 'God' or at least our notion of God.

I'm not some nihilistic atheist fag, but I don't think the conceptions we've seen - big bearded guy, burning bush, Siddhartha Gautama sitting under a tree, Hindu elephant thing are God and what's out there.

But nevertheless given what we know about the universe, which is probably not much but we do know the size and relative scope, humanity has shaped belief systems based on the world around us, and this is why while I can respect many of the teachings of some religions, like how my niece goes to a Christian day care and they tell her to be kind and respect others, or how Buddhism teaches how nothing good or bad is ever permanent, is why I think that religion thru and thru is ultimately geocentric and therefore ultimately wrong, but that's not to say wrong equals false; I won't deny that it does good for some of the people that follow it.

If you're a Christian and it works for you, good for you. If you're a Hindu and it works for you, good for you. If you're a Buddhist and it works for you and you aren't some affluent west coast poseur, good for you. If you're a Muslim and it works for you and you don't want to blow me up and think Muslims who blow people up are evil, good for you.

There's definitely something bigger than us out there, probably multiple things bigger than us.

That's a Simpsons joke, nobody actually believes in that.

One of my favorite verses.
Amazing to see Roosh turn into God.
I am not super religious, but was baptized and used to go to church here and there.

Psalms 51:9~10
Don't look at my sins. Erase them all. God, create a pure heart in me, and make my spirit strong again.

The reason that we aren't satisfied with hedonism. In being lost in the pleasures of the flesh. Of the sensual delights of this world.

Is that we are made in the Image of God. And we are made for him and to share in his divine nature(2 Peter 1:3-4). To be therefore as Priests of the Most High God(1 Peter 2:9) as the original parents were meant to be. And therefore to sit in his Divine Council since those who are saved become "Sons of God"(Romans 8:13-14, 8:18-19)

The same rank as the Holy Angels of the top ruling council of God(Job 1:6).

The pleasure centers of our brain therefore is designed to hedonically adapt and to remain unsatisfactory even when novel pleasures are sought and fulfilled. And that we either take more and more depraved ways of satisfying our desires or we seek after that which truly satisfies in God(John 4:14).

Solomon had all the sensual pleasures at his fingertips which he acquired by his wisdom(Eccleciastes) but he found no satisfaction in them. Beautiful settings. All the beautiful women he craved that he acquired for himself to lay with. Possessions. Wonderful music and so forth.

Ultimate futility is what all men experience once the pressing distractions that come when their needs are fulfilled.

All life aside from ultimate purpose is a distraction from the fact that we are made for higher things. And a much higher purpose than all the other beasts of the earth.

^

Quote:Quote:

Desensitized to everything; what became of subtlety?

Quote: (04-23-2019 11:19 AM)Nonpareil Wrote:  

I don't believe in the notion of 'God' or at least our notion of God.

I'm not some nihilistic atheist fag, but I don't think the conceptions we've seen - big bearded guy, burning bush, Siddhartha Gautama sitting under a tree, Hindu elephant thing are God and what's out there.

But nevertheless given what we know about the universe, which is probably not much but we do know the size and relative scope, humanity has shaped belief systems based on the world around us, and this is why while I can respect many of the teachings of some religions, like how my niece goes to a Christian day care and they tell her to be kind and respect others, or how Buddhism teaches how nothing good or bad is ever permanent, is why I think that religion thru and thru is ultimately geocentric and therefore ultimately wrong, but that's not to say wrong equals false; I won't deny that it does good for some of the people that follow it.

If you're a Christian and it works for you, good for you. If you're a Hindu and it works for you, good for you. If you're a Buddhist and it works for you and you aren't some affluent west coast poseur, good for you. If you're a Muslim and it works for you and you don't want to blow me up and think Muslims who blow people up are evil, good for you.

There's definitely something bigger than us out there, probably multiple things bigger than us.

Bigger than us, both good and evil. That's something that agnostics seem to gloss over, that if there is "something, or somethings out there" those things are probably good or indifferent. What about if the bigger things out there are also evil and actively looking for us?

1 Peter 5:8 "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour"

God answers the knock of those who seek him, where the devil is a door to door salesman.

The longer a person believes that there is just "something out there" the more likely the Devil will show up in that person's life with the greeting "Hello, I'm 'something out there' and I heard you were looking for me"

Pride tells us that we'll be able to see the Devil in disguise, or resist 'something' evil and bigger than us when it finds us. We can't. Its like a 5 year old saying they will step into the ring with Mike Tyson.

We need something benevolent and bigger than us, to protect us from something evil and bigger than us.

Last, Jesus said he taught in parables so only those with 'ears to hear' would understand. Unless someone is seeking god, Christianity will just seem like a moral fairy tale about a big bearded guy and a burning bush.

When you are actively seeking an answer, or the face of 'something bigger' the bible means something.

Until then, if something big and evil finds you, you just have yourself.

Quote: (04-25-2019 11:32 AM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  

Bigger than us, both good and evil. That's something that agnostics seem to gloss over, that if there is "something, or somethings out there" those things are probably good or indifferent. What about if the bigger things out there are also evil and actively looking for us?

It just seems to me that to most people it is impossible to comprehend notion that there might be a true archetypal and primordial Evil. They always think in terms God yes/no, evil happens, but never is there a bad shit out there actively seeking to subjugate and destroy Good?

Now, when you put these things into perspective, is it really wonder that people dismiss Pizzagate or Satanic Hollywood? Of course not, because they simply cannot comprehend that there might be outlets, from which Evil emanates.

Roosh Shared a link on his twitter. I have been reading it lately and have found it interesting. It does a deep dive into some topics on a theological level. There is a lot of detail on the nature of evil (devil) and revelation, along with other topics.

I liked his analysis of the 10 brides with their Candles Parable. Sometimes parables can pass us by until we get an interpretation that makes sense to us.

He also goes through various topics and amalgamates ideas so we can better understand them (eg. the nature of Angels)

I was a little skeptical on his analysis of revelation and his calculation of the timing and analysis, but this is because it is still very beyond me to even try to interpret this book, and there seem to be many interpretations. Still, very interesting, and it certainly didn't hurt to read it, and to be aware. For instance the destruction of Damascus is a sign of end times, google images of Damascus and you see people are aware and it is not in good shape.

Overall, things seem to be extremely well supported with biblical chapter and verse.

ICHTHYS Biblical Study for Spiritual Growth

Quote: (04-25-2019 12:44 PM)NoMoreTO Wrote:  

I was a little skeptical on his analysis of revelation and his calculation of the timing and analysis, but this is because it is still very beyond me to even try to interpret this book, and there seem to be many interpretations. Still, very interesting, and it certainly didn't hurt to read it, and to be aware. For instance the destruction of Damascus is a sign of end times, google images of Damascus and you see people are aware and it is not in good shape.

Overall, things seem to be extremely well supported with biblical chapter and verse.

The study of eschatology is very interesting, but anyone who believes that they will figure it all out is deluding themselves. The Bible says very clearly "that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night." 1 Thessalonians 5:2 So why try to solve a mystery that the Bible says is impossible to figure out?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_eschatology

In fact, if you study the Book Of Josephus, the great Jewish historian who lived through and chronicled the first century CE and the First Jewish–Roman War (66-70 CE), you can make a great argument that what was foretold in the The Book of Revelation has already happened. After all, Jesus predicted the destruction of the temple and the end of the reign of the pharisees -- and that is exactly what happened.

The things that happened during the long siege of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple was indeed the end of the world for the Jews who lived through it. "Josephus tells of one instance during the Roman siege of Jerusalem by Titus in 70 A.D. where guards inside the city found a woman who seemed to have food. They threatened her that they would cut her throat immediately if she did not show them what food she had obtained. She replied that she had saved a very fine portion of it for them, and withal uncovered what was left of her son." (Wars of the Jews Vol. 6, Chapter 3:4)

http://emp.byui.edu/ANDERSONR/itc/Book%2...sephus.htm

There were also many things of a supernatural nature that occurred during the destruction of the temple, many of them matching what is described in The Book of Revelation. IMO, you do not know anything about eschatology unless you have read The Book of Josephus.

Quote: (04-25-2019 12:13 PM)sterling_archer Wrote:  

Quote: (04-25-2019 11:32 AM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  

Bigger than us, both good and evil. That's something that agnostics seem to gloss over, that if there is "something, or somethings out there" those things are probably good or indifferent. What about if the bigger things out there are also evil and actively looking for us?

It just seems to me that to most people it is impossible to comprehend notion that there might be a true archetypal and primordial Evil. They always think in terms God yes/no, evil happens, but never is there a bad shit out there actively seeking to subjugate and destroy Good?

Now, when you put these things into perspective, is it really wonder that people dismiss Pizzagate or Satanic Hollywood? Of course not, because they simply cannot comprehend that there might be outlets, from which Evil emanates.

Yes! Even in Christianity seems like many people think Satan is someone who takes chills and takes your soul if you don't believe in Christ, instead of seeing it as a proactive primordial soul eater who is doing whatever he can to destroy souls.

Quote: (04-25-2019 01:41 PM)loremipsum Wrote:  

Quote: (04-25-2019 12:13 PM)sterling_archer Wrote:  

Quote: (04-25-2019 11:32 AM)Dr. Howard Wrote:  

Bigger than us, both good and evil. That's something that agnostics seem to gloss over, that if there is "something, or somethings out there" those things are probably good or indifferent. What about if the bigger things out there are also evil and actively looking for us?

It just seems to me that to most people it is impossible to comprehend notion that there might be a true archetypal and primordial Evil. They always think in terms God yes/no, evil happens, but never is there a bad shit out there actively seeking to subjugate and destroy Good?

Now, when you put these things into perspective, is it really wonder that people dismiss Pizzagate or Satanic Hollywood? Of course not, because they simply cannot comprehend that there might be outlets, from which Evil emanates.

Yes! Even in Christianity seems like many people think Satan is someone who takes chills and takes your soul if you don't believe in Christ, instead of seeing it as a proactive primordial soul eater who is doing whatever he can to destroy souls.

One of the biggest fallacies in Christianity is that Satan rules in hell. John Milton even gets it wrong in "Paradise Lost." God is everywhere -- even in hell. God rules everywhere -- even in hell.

Quote:Quote:

A breath of relief is usually heard when someone declares, “Hell is a symbol for separation from God.” To be separated from God for eternity is no great threat to the impenitent person. The ungodly want nothing more than to be separated from God. Their problem in hell will not be separation from God, it will be the presence of God that will torment them. In hell, God will be present in the fullness of His divine wrath. He will be there to exercise His just punishment of the damned. They will know Him as an all-consuming fire.

No matter how we analyze the concept of hell it often sounds to us as a place of cruel and unusual punishment. If, however, we can take any comfort in the concept of hell, we can take it in the full assurance that there will be no cruelty there. It is impossible for God to be cruel. Cruelty involves inflicting a punishment that is more severe or harsh than the crime. Cruelty in this sense is unjust. God is incapable of inflicting an unjust punishment. The Judge of all the earth will surely do what is right. No innocent person will ever suffer at His hand.

https://www.ligonier.org/blog/hell/

Quote: (04-25-2019 01:37 PM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  

Quote: (04-25-2019 12:44 PM)NoMoreTO Wrote:  

I was a little skeptical on his analysis of revelation and his calculation of the timing and analysis, but this is because it is still very beyond me to even try to interpret this book, and there seem to be many interpretations. Still, very interesting, and it certainly didn't hurt to read it, and to be aware. For instance the destruction of Damascus is a sign of end times, google images of Damascus and you see people are aware and it is not in good shape.

Overall, things seem to be extremely well supported with biblical chapter and verse.

The study of eschatology is very interesting, but anyone who believes that they will figure it all out is deluding themselves. The Bible says very clearly "that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night." 1 Thessalonians 5:2 So why try to solve a mystery that the Bible says is impossible to figure out?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_eschatology

In fact, if you study the Book Of Josephus, the great Jewish historian who lived through and chronicled the first century CE and the First Jewish–Roman War (66-70 CE), you can make a great argument that what was foretold in the The Book of Revelation has already happened. After all, Jesus predicted the destruction of the temple and the end of the reign of the pharisees -- and that is exactly what happened.

The things that happened during the long siege of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple was indeed the end of the world for the Jews who lived through it. "Josephus tells of one instance during the Roman siege of Jerusalem by Titus in 70 A.D. where guards inside the city found a woman who seemed to have food. They threatened her that they would cut her throat immediately if she did not show them what food she had obtained. She replied that she had saved a very fine portion of it for them, and withal uncovered what was left of her son." (Wars of the Jews Vol. 6, Chapter 3:4)

http://emp.byui.edu/ANDERSONR/itc/Book%2...sephus.htm

There were also many things of a supernatural nature that occurred during the destruction of the temple, many of them matching what is described in The Book of Revelation. IMO, you do not know anything about eschatology unless you have read The Book of Josephus.

I agree with your pointing to Thesalonians, that no one can know the time. Still there must be a balancing element to an end time prophecy that is to be interpreted as part of a capability for believers to read signs as prophecy unforlds.

I find the other part harder to accept, based on what I know off hand:

(1) It was my understanding that Revelation was written after the destruction of the temple. A quick google search shows it being written in 95AD, and the Temple being destroyed in 70AD. So according to this, revelation foretold something that had already happened, at the time of its writing?

(2) You are pointing to a book that is not generally accepted as part of the standard biblical text. Do you consider this book of Josephus divine or historical in nature? I see the link goes back to a Mormon University. Is this generally accepted Mormon teaching?

Gracias

Quote: (04-25-2019 04:35 PM)NoMoreTO Wrote:  

Quote: (04-25-2019 01:37 PM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  

Quote: (04-25-2019 12:44 PM)NoMoreTO Wrote:  

I was a little skeptical on his analysis of revelation and his calculation of the timing and analysis, but this is because it is still very beyond me to even try to interpret this book, and there seem to be many interpretations. Still, very interesting, and it certainly didn't hurt to read it, and to be aware. For instance the destruction of Damascus is a sign of end times, google images of Damascus and you see people are aware and it is not in good shape.

Overall, things seem to be extremely well supported with biblical chapter and verse.

The study of eschatology is very interesting, but anyone who believes that they will figure it all out is deluding themselves. The Bible says very clearly "that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night." 1 Thessalonians 5:2 So why try to solve a mystery that the Bible says is impossible to figure out?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_eschatology

In fact, if you study the Book Of Josephus, the great Jewish historian who lived through and chronicled the first century CE and the First Jewish–Roman War (66-70 CE), you can make a great argument that what was foretold in the the Book of Revelation has already happened. After all, Jesus predicted the destruction of the temple and the end of the reign of the pharisees -- and that is exactly what happened.

The things that happened during the long siege of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple was indeed the end of the world for the Jews who lived through it. "Josephus tells of one instance during the Roman siege of Jerusalem by Titus in 70 A.D. where guards inside the city found a woman who seemed to have food. They threatened her that they would cut her throat immediately if she did not show them what food she had obtained. She replied that she had saved a very fine portion of it for them, and withal uncovered what was left of her son." (Wars of the Jews Vol. 6, Chapter 3:4)

http://emp.byui.edu/ANDERSONR/itc/Book%2...sephus.htm

There were also many things of a supernatural nature that occurred during the destruction of the temple, many of them matching what is described in The Book of Revelation. IMO, you do not know anything about eschatology unless you have read The Book of Josephus.

I agree with your pointing to Thesalonians, that no one can know the time. Still there must be a balancing element to an end time prophecy that is to be interpreted as part of a capability for believers to read signs as prophecy unforlds.

I find the other part harder to accept, based on what I know off hand:

(1) It was my understanding that Revelation was written after the destruction of the temple. A quick google search shows it being written in 95AD, and the Temple being destroyed in 70AD. So according to this, revelation foretold something that had already happened, at the time of its writing?

(2) You are pointing to a book that is not generally accepted as part of the standard biblical text. Do you consider this book of Josephus divine or historical in nature? I see the link goes back to a Mormon University. Is this generally accepted Mormon teaching?

Gracias

Your points are well-taken. Yet, no one really knows when the Book of Revelation was written. How could they? Especially when the Bible says very clearly "that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night." So, the Book of Revelation can support either theory.

Quote:Quote:

Partial preterism (often referred to as orthodox preterism or classical preterism) may hold that most eschatological prophecies, such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrist, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ, were fulfilled either in AD 70[23] or during the persecution of Christians under the Emperor Nero. [They] believe the Book of Revelation was written after Nero's suicide in AD 68, and identify the Beast with another emperor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preterism#...1954509-55

"The Works of Josephus" were written by a Jewish historian who personally witnessed the events leading to the destruction of the temple. As far as I know, no one has ever claimed that they are part of the Bible.

None of this has anything to do with salvation. It is simply something for us foolish humans to argue about.

Quote: (04-25-2019 03:37 PM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  

...
One of the biggest fallacies in Christianity is that Satan rules in hell. John Milton even gets it wrong in "Paradise Lost." God is everywhere -- even in hell. God rules everywhere -- even in hell.
...

There's also plenty of Biblical text to indicate that no one goes to either Heaven or hell upon death. Rather - they simply enter a 'spiritual sleep state', until the Day Of Judgement.
IE - Rest In Peace.

Then upon the Day Of Judgement, God opens 'the books' to gauge a person's life. Those that are righteous enter into New Jerusalem for eternity.
Those that are found wanting are disintergrated spiritually in the Lake Of Fire. Consumed wholesale with no eternal punishment.
Then there may be those who are left outside of New Jerusalem to live in strife...?

Back to the 'spiritual sleep state' thing.
It would be a touch odd to ascend to Heaven (paradise); as in you "made it". Only then to be judged on the Day Of Judgement later.
If you made it, why the need to be judged again?

Quote: (04-25-2019 06:13 PM)CynicalContrarian Wrote:  

Quote: (04-25-2019 03:37 PM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  

...
One of the biggest fallacies in Christianity is that Satan rules in hell. John Milton even gets it wrong in "Paradise Lost." God is everywhere -- even in hell. God rules everywhere -- even in hell.
...

There's also plenty of Biblical text to indicate that no one goes to either Heaven or hell upon death. Rather - they simply enter a 'spiritual sleep state', until the Day Of Judgement.
IE - Rest In Peace.

Then upon the Day Of Judgement, God opens 'the books' to gauge a person's life. Those that are righteous enter into New Jerusalem for eternity.
Those that are found wanting are disintergrated spiritually in the Lake Of Fire. Consumed wholesale with no eternal punishment.
Then there may be those who are left outside of New Jerusalem to live in strife...?

Back to the 'spiritual sleep state' thing.
It would be a touch odd to ascend to Heaven (paradise); as in you "made it". Only then to be judged on the Day Of Judgement later.
If you made it, why the need to be judged again?

I agree with you regarding the timing, i.e., that there is a Day of Judgment. I do not believe that I said anything contrary to that. I do, however, disagree with the annihilation argument.

When the Book of Revelation describes the flames of hell, it does not speak of consumption but says the lost "will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night." (Rev. 14:10–11). Jesus himself described hell in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus as a "place of torment," not of destruction. (Luke 16:28) Scripture is also unambiguous when it describes the fate of the devil, Beast, and False Prophet in the lake of fire: "They will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (Rev. 20:10). So, the Beast’s "destruction" is everlasting torment in the lake of fire. This everlasting punishment sounds very clear to me.

The problem is just as the SJW crowd (and their predecessors) wish to destroy the original intent of the U.S. Constitution, they also wish to destroy the original intent of the Holy Scripture. They want to lead people straight to the very gates of hell by minimizing death's impact on the human soul as mere annihilation. Why fear God if your soul simply gets destroyed when your body dies? This is contrary to Scripture.

So, it is also useful to view the works of those who studied the Bible their entire lives. Jonathan Edwards is widely regarded as America's most important and original philosophical theologians -- and was a key player in the First Great Awakening. One of his greatest sermons was "Sinners in the Hands of Angry God," where he described what the Bible said about hell:

Quote:Quote:

It is everlasting wrath. It would be dreadful to suffer this fierceness and wrath of Almighty God one moment; but you must suffer it to all eternity. There will be no end to this exquisite horrible misery. When you look forward, you shall see a long forever, a boundless duration before you, which will swallow up your thoughts, and amaze your soul; and you will absolutely despair of ever having any deliverance, any end, any mitigation, any rest at all. You will know certainly that you must wear out long ages, millions of millions of ages, in wrestling and conflicting with this almighty merciless vengeance; and then when you have so done, when so many ages have actually been spent by you in this manner, you will know that all is but a point to what remains. So that your punishment will indeed be infinite. Oh, who can express what the state of a soul in such circumstances is! All that we can possibly say about it, gives but a very feeble, faint representation of it; it is inexpressible and inconceivable: for “who knows the power of God’s anger?”

https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/edw...inners.cfm

Quote: (04-25-2019 06:13 PM)CynicalContrarian Wrote:  

Quote: (04-25-2019 03:37 PM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  

...
One of the biggest fallacies in Christianity is that Satan rules in hell. John Milton even gets it wrong in "Paradise Lost." God is everywhere -- even in hell. God rules everywhere -- even in hell.
...

There's also plenty of Biblical text to indicate that no one goes to either Heaven or hell upon death. Rather - they simply enter a 'spiritual sleep state', until the Day Of Judgement.
IE - Rest In Peace.

Then upon the Day Of Judgement, God opens 'the books' to gauge a person's life. Those that are righteous enter into New Jerusalem for eternity.
Those that are found wanting are disintergrated spiritually in the Lake Of Fire. Consumed wholesale with no eternal punishment.
Then there may be those who are left outside of New Jerusalem to live in strife...?

Back to the 'spiritual sleep state' thing.
It would be a touch odd to ascend to Heaven (paradise); as in you "made it". Only then to be judged on the Day Of Judgement later.
If you made it, why the need to be judged again?

I'm still learning more about this myself. I am unsure of if, upon death, that we all sleep until judgement day or if we do enter a holding area.

Some people believe that we will go straight up to heaven, I'm unsure about that and I think that it might be reserved for special circumstances like Jesus and Enoch where they were literally carried up to heaven.

As for the "holding area" the bible talks about Heaven and Hell, but it also talks about paradise and hades.

I've read some things where people believe that there is a mini-heaven called paradise, or the bosom of Abraham where the saved await judgement day and where the damned endure hades, while the neutral just sleep.

I am not sure personally but would be just fine with resting until judgement day. It also jives with the idea of ghosts not being able to rest. They for some reason can't enter sleep to await judgement.

The idea of purgatory, hades and abrahams' bosom almost seems to me like a comfort to people who want an immediate reward or retribution. Like the idea of a murderer just sleeping until judgement doesn't seem like enough justice to some. Similarly some people want to believe in this idea that their ancestors are watching them from heaven. I don't think they are, they only watchers being the prophets and Jesus there already.

These are all just opinions and I don't have enough biblical chops to argue for any one.

Quote: (04-25-2019 06:40 PM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  

Quote: (04-25-2019 06:13 PM)CynicalContrarian Wrote:  

Quote: (04-25-2019 03:37 PM)Tail Gunner Wrote:  

...
One of the biggest fallacies in Christianity is that Satan rules in hell. John Milton even gets it wrong in "Paradise Lost." God is everywhere -- even in hell. God rules everywhere -- even in hell.
...

There's also plenty of Biblical text to indicate that no one goes to either Heaven or hell upon death. Rather - they simply enter a 'spiritual sleep state', until the Day Of Judgement.
IE - Rest In Peace.

Then upon the Day Of Judgement, God opens 'the books' to gauge a person's life. Those that are righteous enter into New Jerusalem for eternity.
Those that are found wanting are disintergrated spiritually in the Lake Of Fire. Consumed wholesale with no eternal punishment.
Then there may be those who are left outside of New Jerusalem to live in strife...?

Back to the 'spiritual sleep state' thing.
It would be a touch odd to ascend to Heaven (paradise); as in you "made it". Only then to be judged on the Day Of Judgement later.
If you made it, why the need to be judged again?

I agree with you regarding the timing, i.e., that there is a Day of Judgment. I do not believe that I said anything contrary to that. I do, however, disagree with the annihilation argument.

When the Book of Revelation describes the flames of hell, it does not speak of consumption but says the lost "will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night." (Rev. 14:10–11). Jesus himself described hell in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus as a "place of torment," not of destruction. (Luke 16:28) Scripture is also unambiguous when it describes the fate of the devil, Beast, and False Prophet in the lake of fire: "They will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (Rev. 20:10). So, the Beast’s "destruction" is everlasting torment in the lake of fire. This everlasting punishment sounds very clear to me.

The problem is just as the SJW crowd (and their predecessors) wish to destroy the original intent of the U.S. Constitution, they also wish to destroy the original intent of the Holy Scripture. They want to lead people straight to the very gates of hell by minimizing death's impact on the human soul as mere annihilation. Why fear God if your soul simply gets destroyed when your body dies? This is contrary to Scripture.

So, it is also useful to view the works of those who studied the Bible their entire lives. Jonathan Edwards is widely regarded as America's most important and original philosophical theologians -- and was a key player in the First Great Awakening. One of his greatest sermons was "Sinners in the Hands of Angry God," where he described what the Bible said about hell:

Quote:Quote:

It is everlasting wrath. It would be dreadful to suffer this fierceness and wrath of Almighty God one moment; but you must suffer it to all eternity. There will be no end to this exquisite horrible misery. When you look forward, you shall see a long forever, a boundless duration before you, which will swallow up your thoughts, and amaze your soul; and you will absolutely despair of ever having any deliverance, any end, any mitigation, any rest at all. You will know certainly that you must wear out long ages, millions of millions of ages, in wrestling and conflicting with this almighty merciless vengeance; and then when you have so done, when so many ages have actually been spent by you in this manner, you will know that all is but a point to what remains. So that your punishment will indeed be infinite. Oh, who can express what the state of a soul in such circumstances is! All that we can possibly say about it, gives but a very feeble, faint representation of it; it is inexpressible and inconceivable: for “who knows the power of God’s anger?”

https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/edw...inners.cfm

In my reading I have found this puzzling.

Quote:Quote:

23From one New Moon to another

and from one Sabbath to another,

all mankind will come to worship before Me,”

says the LORD.

24“As they go forth, they will see the corpses

of the men who have rebelled against Me;

for their worm will never die,

their fire will never be quenched,

and they will be a horror to all mankind.”

This seems to talk about the lake of fire which all wicked people will be thrown into. Yet also refers to them as "Corpses". How then can dead bodies be conscious? Suffering eternal torment?

This talk of the afterlife is something I have deeply delved into.

I’ll try to be concise - a note that this is from personal research years ago, so my memory may be fuzzy. Most of this has been pieced together from interlinear translations of the Old and New Testaments, esoteric Abrahamic literature, Gnostic texts, Hermetic manuals, polished with cross-references to Buddhist (mostly Tibetan) and Daoist theology - take of it what you will.

First of all, there is a schism between the afterlife of the Israelite and the Gentile. For the former, there are two possibilities - Sheol and Gilgulim. Sheol is a cold and silent place, a holding tank for the spiritual essence of the Israelite (as all Israelites are promised the opportunity of Ressurection). A few choice souls are blessed (or cursed) to be Gilgulim - wherein the soul slithers from Sheol and is reincarnated into the material world to once again do The LORD’s work.

For the gentile, there is only Hades - until the Ressurection. Hades itself is theologically similar to the Buddhist conception of the between. Here your consciousness induces a dream-like reality, and as you are cut off from The LORD who is The God of the Living the realm you find yourself within is a direct reflection of the state of your soul. For those who were Good then Paradisio awaits. For those who were not, the soul manifests a world in which it can work through it’s inconsistencies and incongruencies.

Each and every action carries with it an energetic frequency - here in the world this spiritual energy is grounded to the body. Once the body is gone, the soul will begin to burn away its experiences until it is pure source or spirit - hence the fanatical obsession with familiarizing oneself with Samadhi in the Eastern traditions. Desire burns away here, that energy - now liberated - returns to the world to continue turning with the Wheel. Those who have reached higher spiritual states retain their personality - this is Sainthood in the Christian tradition, the Diamond Body in Daoism, or Attainment of the Deity in the Hindu conception. For most, the personality is simply the wages of desire - as desire burns away so too does the poorly-rooted self.

Hell is a misconception, born from a horrendous translation error. Cosmologically Christ spoke of four possibilities for the next life: The Kingdom, Hades, Gehanna, and Tartarus. It is an absolute shame that the latter three terms were all translated as the same Hell.

I have already touched upon The Kingdom and Hades. Gehanna is not a cosmological realm, rather it is metaphorical language - it was, specifically, a burning trash heap that was forever ablaze just out of sight of Jerusalem. If I recall correctly, it is the place where a fallen king of Israel had sacrificed his heir to Moloch. The most wretched and irredeemable souls literally combust in a fury of divine wrath as they enter Hades - their spiritual energy disappating in a quick and turbulent conflaguration.

Tartarus is an eternal prison of torment for the Watchers, the Grigori, the Nephalim, and other demons. It is not a realm where Human Souls are sent. However, those who worship The Beast no longer have a Human Soul.

Unfortunately, lumping these three cosmological realms together produces a ham-fisted cosmos: a place distant from God (Hades) that is a burning lake of fire (Gehanna) where one is trapped forever (Tartarus).

I hope this provides some food for thought to those it serves.

Im a relatively recent reformed agnostic a complete noob if you will so take what I say with a grain of salt. My interpretation of the lake of fire is permanent deletion, of soul and life. Perhaps there is a place of torment reserved for Demons (rebellious angels) and particularly evil humans but I suspect God does not want our love under the yoke of fear. Much like a man does not want the love of a woman or his children compelled by fear, for that is not true love.

Anyone beginning to delve into esoteric/endtimes revelations (re-veilings) would be well advised to start here:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_yjr7...WZTWWFyTFE