If no deal actually happens, I think there would be about 6 months to a year of economic disruption, but then things will go back to being surprisingly normal.

Britain will have a better negotiating position with the EU once it is already out.

A poll shows that Nigel Farage's Brexit Party would win a general election in Doncaster.

Quote:Quote:

1 Brexit Party 28%
2 Labour 27%
3 UKIP 18%
4 None of them 7%
5 Conservative 6%
6 The Independent Group/Change UK – 5%
7 Liberal Democrat 4%
8 Green 3%
9 Independent 1%
10 Others 1%

Source

Doncaster is where Ed Milliband was parachuted into.






I've been suggesting people stop voting Conservative since 2017. Doubt it had much effect. The Conservative Party are doing a better job than I ever could.

All around I'm hearing of considerable political exoduses.

Whatever the outcome from hereon, I don't think it's possible for the establishment to make any move that doesn't seriously damage themselves.

The past couple of pages have been full of fearmongering over Brexit, so I thought I would quickly dispel them.

Trade.
The EU trade system is extremely insular and not fit for a world market. Most EU countries trade with other EU countries. The UK is not like that. The UK buys shitloads of goods from the EU and sells shitloads outside the EU. The EU actively restricts trade with nations outside the EU. Any post-Brexit trade restrictions made by the EU will negatively impact the EU to a greater extent. The UK already has unofficial trade deals within the "Five eyes" nations for trade relating to technology and defence. The UK has significant trade links with all other "Legacy of Empire" countries.

Criminal laws.
The UK does have miscarriages of justice happen, but that is no excuse to devolve your lawmaking, and law enforcement to an unelected foreign body that is demonstrably and inherently more corrupt.

Civil laws.
Many of the UKs civil laws and citizens rights were superior to the EUs. After aligning with EU laws, some increased protection, others decreased. After Brexit the UK can decide upon its own again. It should be noted, that with the exception of Germany, the UK is the only country in the EU that follows the EU laws and regulations to the letter. Anyone who has travelled in Europe will have seen that.

Standards.
Prior to EU standards the UK had its own set of standards for...., well, basically everything. The "kitemark" (the mark of a BS standard) was recognised worldwide as the highest standard for anything it was applied to. It would not be difficult to return to that system.

Post-Brexit breakup of the UK.
This is quite possibly the biggest nonsense ever perpetuated about Brexit and it revolves around 2 countries, Scotland and Northern Ireland.
Scotland has had an independence referendum and will not have another for generations. There will be a large group or Scottish voters who would vote for Scottish independence but would never countenance immediately giving up that independence to the EU. They are happy to remain in the EU whilst part of the UK, but that doesn't translate to wanting to leave the UK and join the EU where they would have less independence than remaining part of the UK. That is due to structure of the EU and how restrictive it is to new countries that have joined, especially new ones that are small with negative comparative GDP.
Northern Ireland is slightly more complex, but similar to Scotland. Northern Irish citizens are legally dual citizens of Ireland (the EU) and the UK. Prior to the EU there was an act legally guaranteed free travel for all Irish and UK citizens and free trade throughout the "British Isles". This was, and still is known as the common travel area. This is still in effect. Additionally, if a referendum on Northern Irelands status was to be held, the result would be a 60-70% result to remain in the UK. This is born out by the census data (and the amount who wish to remain in the UK increases every census). This is why political parties who have a pro-united Ireland stance do not advocate for a border poll anymore. They know the likely results would torpedo one of their main political talking points. Strategically, although Northern Ireland costs more for the UK than it generates, it has a significantly high level of government employees and acts as a financial anchor for the rest of the UK during periods of recession.

Roaming charges and shit like that.
Roaming charges may or may not be applied (I cant see my provider still providing a no charge service in the US, but not in the EU), you may or may not need a visa to travel to the UK (Portugal wont expect it, so neither anyone else. Same with their trade deal. By the way, this is an example of EU countries ignoring what the EU says, when it suits them), You may or may not have to pay more for some goods. This is the way the world works, things change. It is a small price to pay for the ability to interact with the rest of the world on our own behalf, rather than have the EU dictate those worldwide relationships.

Second referendum.
This may happen. It will not go the way the elite think. 70% of the people I know voted to Leave and 30% voted to Remain. All 70% who voted to Remain will vote to Remain again. Of the remaining 30%, at least half will vote to Leave. And they all state the same reason, the punitive behaviour of the EU towards the UK after the vote, and the elites who refuse to respect the result of the vote. Everyone I know, says that everyone THEY know feels the same.
Additionally, most people I know who voted Leave have said that they will not respect a second referendum result if the result is to Remain. After all, their vote wasn't respected, so why should they respect the vote of a second referendum. This may not seem that important, but this is what as known as "fighting talk" where I come from. People are talking about the breakdown in democracy and what they will do about it. If they were left wing, I would say revolution is brewing. These are people who are generally ambivalent about politics, they vote but as their lives generally aren't effected by whoever is in power that much, they don't generally get involved in politics in any way. This is extremely significant.

Effects of non-Brexit.
Within the past week, someone chucked an egg at Jeremy Corbyn whilst shouting that politicians should respect the Leave vote. The MSM and all politicians made lots of statements about how this was dangerous, unconscionable, and a threat to democracy. Not one person I know agreed with those statements. Again, these are not overly "political" people, just everyday people. They respond to this with comments such as "I don't know why they are surprised when they treat us like this", "It will be more than an egg next time", "They killed democracy, this is our response", "This is only the start", etc. This was lefty-remainers saying this too.
Also, within the past week, Brexiteers tried to sabotage the rail system, using some sort of device to short the signals or something (in an ironic twist it appears that it didn't work as the system had been upgraded to meet EU standards!). They communicated that this was in response to the Leave vote not being honoured and there would be more actions to come. Again the MSM and politicians said this was bad for democracy, shouldn't be tolerated etc. And again, everyone I know reacted in the same way, basically saying what did they expect, and it will only get worse until they honour the will of the people.
Also, Paras deployed to Kabul where filmed using a target of Jeremy Corbyn during training. Again, the usual comments from the media and politicians about how dangerous and worrying it was and how the soldiers must be punished. Again, everyone I know loved it. In fact, the most lefty person I know, a staunch labour supporter, a person who hates and despises the armed forces and the Royal Family said "They are just training for their next deployment, when the Queen orders them to dissolve Parliament and restore democracy to us. I cant wait". He wasn't joking either.

The ruling classes appear totally oblivious to the feelings of everyday people, and people I know and respect, people who have decades of experience in politics, senior civil service and the armed forces are beginning to predict that no matter how bad the deal (or no deal is) if we do not leave the EU soon, the UK could be facing levels of disorder and terrorism (specifically targeting infrastructure, media and politicians) which has not been seen in the UK before. This may well lead to the breakup of the UK that people seem to think would happen if the UK leaves the EU.

I have to agree with that assessment, and personally I have upped my "readiness state" from its normal setting of "There are some Muslims over there" to "Shit is getting serious".

Yep again showing how out of touch they are, with Jeremy Corbyn getting triggered and the Labour Party calling for those working class boys in Afghanistan to be punished. The mood in the country is definitely changing.

Quote: (04-04-2019 06:26 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  

Quote: (04-04-2019 05:25 AM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  

Don't have a dog in the fight but gotta say I would be willing to give up a good chunk of my GDP not to be ruled over by guys who thought like Sp5.
It's honestly a little creepy reading your posts, man.

"You may have your sovereignty, but you'll have to pay ROAMING CHARGES! Won't you feel stupid then!"

Like it or not, if you're lucky you will always be ruled over by guys who think like Sp5.

I'm not disputing the gist of your post about trade-offs and all that but can't you see how hearing something like that might send a disgruntled population into revolutionary rage? I can already imagine Louis XVI shouting from his balcony: "Like it or not, if you're lucky you will always be ruled over by my family!" As we know, that worked out great for everyone.

If humanity was always content with nodding their heads and muttering "well, we'll always be ruled by guys like this so fuck it", we'd still be living in Bronze Age. Fortunately, it doesn't work that way.

Quote: (04-05-2019 08:25 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  

Quote: (04-04-2019 06:26 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  

Quote: (04-04-2019 05:25 AM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  

Don't have a dog in the fight but gotta say I would be willing to give up a good chunk of my GDP not to be ruled over by guys who thought like Sp5.
It's honestly a little creepy reading your posts, man.

"You may have your sovereignty, but you'll have to pay ROAMING CHARGES! Won't you feel stupid then!"

Like it or not, if you're lucky you will always be ruled over by guys who think like Sp5.

I'm not disputing the gist of your post about trade-offs and all that but can't you see how hearing something like that might send a disgruntled population into revolutionary rage? I can already imagine Louis XVI shouting from his balcony: "Like it or not, if you're lucky you will always be ruled over by my family!" As we know, that worked out great for everyone.

If humanity was always content with nodding their heads and muttering "well, we'll always be ruled by guys like this so fuck it", we'd still be living in Bronze Age. Fortunately, it doesn't work that way.

But I'm not Louis XVI, I'm more like DeGaulle or Louis XIV!

Look at it another way: if you didn't have maniacs, crooks, charlatans, and fools taking over every once in awhile, people breaking a "good enough" established order, we might have colonized and terraformed Mars with fusion power by now. What would have happened if Rome continued its competent governance?

My theory is that after years of peace, prosperity, progress, law and order, a situation that might even be improved with minor adjustments, "the masses" with some kind of collective consciousness want to break everything out of boredom or anomie.

This classic thread is an example: TLOZ: The Stale Peace and its Consequences

You might have witnessed this up close when the former Yugoslavia broke up.

I see a lot of bullshit about Brexit out there, a blind faith in its benefits, and a denial of the facts. Today I saw a video in which Boris was asked about the effect on British manufacturing on the loss of partners for "just in time" supply chains. Boris said that Switzerland was an example - even though Switzerland is a part of the single market through the EFTA.

It's like Cuchullhan2016 saying there's won't be another Scottish independence referendum in a generation when I've seen SNP deputies in Parliament and the European Parliament saying the opposite in the last week. The referendum is going to be demanded within a year of Brexit, especially a no-deal Brexit.

I point out that the EU has already tied up a lot of the world in free trade agreements, he says the EU prevents members from trading outside the EU.

People bored with things being ok, so it's an improvement to bring back 17th and 18th century rivalries between the UK and France and Spain, and 20th century rivalries with Germany. Fuck, Gibraltar is now an issue!

The irony is Corbyn is a threat to national security as advised by MI5. Osama Bin Laden was and still is a popular target image but lets be honest here, he had never got as close to actual nuclear weapons as that marxist terrorist sympaphiser Corbyn has done.

Its quite prudent to teach our trained killers who they might need to target in future.


Also this whole thing, Trump bowing to zionists, right being wrong, evil festering without anything being done, the state of the UK, EU etc has led me to look at the world like clown Pepe.








This channel sums up my current mood. I'd rather be entertained than bogged down. My current fix is the Brunei case of faggots and liberals being upset over a Muslim country carrying out the punishments as outlined in the Koran.

British Muslims wont ever do that! Surely not.

I don't wish to keep engaging with you Sp5 - you move from one historically and legally misinformed position to another without ever actually making contact with the argument. Two points that stand out:

1. You say we could have had fusion power or colonised Mars by now, perhaps, if it weren't for the little guy's agitating. Beyond the obvious absurdity of such a statement - dollars to donuts, if we ever achieve either of those things, it will be achieved by the US or India. Both great civilisations underpinned and enlivened by a British system of laws. This will not be an accident, though such irony may be lost on you. For certain it will not be achieved by the European Union.

2. You would have had to be living under a rock in the UK to think 'Fuck, Gibraltar is now an issue'. Gibraltar has been an issue since 1713. There were two referenda on it's belonging to the UK in the last 70 years. The Spanish have been agitating for it back since they ceded it. It is ironic that 99% of Gibraltans (actual 2002 referendum figure) rejected Spanish Governance. If we are all much of a muchness, as you contest, it is somewhat strange that people living adjacent to Spain would be so vehemently against their introduction as governors. The homogeneity and compatibility you suggest between different administrative systems doesn't even hold true for a rock in the Mediterranean, let alone an entire country. It is ironic that they are strongly in favour of remaining part of the EU, but they will come around when all of the 'experts', such as yourself, are yet again proven wrong - as you always and inevitably are and already have been countless times on Brexit alone. Many of these experts, as you have so ably demonstrated, are woefully illiterate in matters of British history and the common law, but quite prepared to comment nonetheless.

I am reminded of Burke's maxim, in the face of all the hysteria that everywhere abounds at the moment:

“Because half a dozen grasshoppers under a fern make the field ring with their importunate chink, whilst thousands of great cattle, reposed beneath the shadow of the British oak, chew the cud and are silent, pray do not imagine that those who make the noise are the only inhabitants of the field.”

Quote: (04-06-2019 03:10 AM)H1N1 Wrote:  

I don't wish to keep engaging with you Sp5 - you move from one historically and legally misinformed position to another without ever actually making contact with the argument. Two points that stand out:

1. You say we could have had fusion power or colonised Mars by now, perhaps, if it weren't for the little guy's agitating. Beyond the obvious absurdity of such a statement - dollars to donuts, if we ever achieve either of those things, it will be achieved by the US or India. Both great civilisations underpinned and enlivened by a British system of laws. This will not be an accident, though such irony may be lost on you. For certain it will not be achieved by the European Union.

2. You would have had to be living under a rock in the UK to think 'Fuck, Gibraltar is now an issue'. Gibraltar has been an issue since 1713. There were two referenda on it's belonging to the UK in the last 70 years. The Spanish have been agitating for it back since they ceded it. It is ironic that 99% of Gibraltans (actual 2002 referendum figure) rejected Spanish Governance. If we are all much of a muchness, as you contest, it is somewhat strange that people living adjacent to Spain would be so vehemently against their introduction as governors. The homogeneity and compatibility you suggest between different administrative systems doesn't even hold true for a rock in the Mediterranean, let alone an entire country. It is ironic that they are strongly in favour of remaining part of the EU, but they will come around when all of the 'experts', such as yourself, are yet again proven wrong - as you always and inevitably are and already have been countless times on Brexit alone. Many of these experts, as you have so ably demonstrated, are woefully illiterate in matters of British history and the common law, but quite prepared to comment nonetheless.

I am reminded of Burke's maxim, in the face of all the hysteria that everywhere abounds at the moment:

“Because half a dozen grasshoppers under a fern make the field ring with their importunate chink, whilst thousands of great cattle, reposed beneath the shadow of the British oak, chew the cud and are silent, pray do not imagine that those who make the noise are the only inhabitants of the field.”

Same here. Rather than not engaging with your arguments about "muh common law," the.king and I, both law graduates, have demolished them in detail without you responding to our points. Because your knowledge of the law does not equip you to respond.

Gibraltar was conditionally settled inside the EU framework. Now it's going to be designated a "colony," and Spain will have the support of the EU for the restrictive measures it is now imposing.

Finally, your assertion that India will be the country that colonizes Mars because of muh common law brings clarity. India is #77 on the World Bank's Ease of Doing Business Index, #129 on the Heritage Foundation's Economic Freedom Index, and #130 on UNDP's Human Development Index, below all of the developed nations. It has a notoriously bureaucratic and obstructive business climate. It's far behind China in development, including its space program, let alone the USA, Russia, and the EU. There's a term here for that kind of talking here: IRT

I will have to trust the fair mindedness of the audience when it comes to your assertion that you have demolished my arguments. They are written here for all to see and I suspect I will have sufficient support.

For what it is worth, I graduated the UK's top law school (never ranked outside the top 5 in the world) as one of the top students in my class, and studied English common law, our constitution, and it's subtleties under the finest professors currently practising.

Even if I hadn't, that fact would be irrelevant, as you have not demonstrated an even elementary level of understanding of our history and law. The facts you have presented, as I have highlighted, have been invariably wrong. There is no special virtue attaching to law graduates, and no knowledge that is off limits to patient men with common sense and adequate intellect.

The fact that as a law graduate you may only be half way to being a bad lawyer - the world is full of them (without any mention as to the quality of the institutions in your country) - is not an appeal to authority I would personally place a great deal of weight on. The fact that you are half a bad lawyer from a legal system different from my own might give a man more prone to self-reflection pause.

Quote: (04-05-2019 08:25 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  

Quote: (04-04-2019 06:26 AM)Sp5 Wrote:  

Quote: (04-04-2019 05:25 AM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  

Don't have a dog in the fight but gotta say I would be willing to give up a good chunk of my GDP not to be ruled over by guys who thought like Sp5.
It's honestly a little creepy reading your posts, man.

"You may have your sovereignty, but you'll have to pay ROAMING CHARGES! Won't you feel stupid then!"

Like it or not, if you're lucky you will always be ruled over by guys who think like Sp5.

I'm not disputing the gist of your post about trade-offs and all that but can't you see how hearing something like that might send a disgruntled population into revolutionary rage? I can already imagine Louis XVI shouting from his balcony: "Like it or not, if you're lucky you will always be ruled over by my family!" As we know, that worked out great for everyone.

If humanity was always content with nodding their heads and muttering "well, we'll always be ruled by guys like this so fuck it", we'd still be living in Bronze Age. Fortunately, it doesn't work that way.

As an American, it's tough not to imagine Sp5 at the Continental Congress, talking about the economic disaster that the colonies will suffer if they dare displease Great Britain.
Some things in life are more important than a temporary hit to GDP, or even the terrible torture that is roaming charges.

Quote: (04-06-2019 06:35 AM)H1N1 Wrote:  

I will have to trust the fair mindedness of the audience when it comes to your assertion that you have demolished my arguments. They are written here for all to see and I suspect I will have sufficient support.

For what it is worth, I graduated the UK's top law school (never ranked outside the top 5 in the world) as one of the top students in my class, and studied English common law, our constitution, and it's subtleties under the finest professors currently practising.

Even if I hadn't, that fact would be irrelevant, as you have not demonstrated an even elementary level of understanding of our history and law. The facts you have presented, as I have highlighted, have been invariably wrong. There is no special virtue attaching to law graduates, and no knowledge that is off limits to patient men with common sense and adequate intellect.

The fact that as a law graduate you may only be half way to being a bad lawyer - the world is full of them (without any mention as to the quality of the institutions in your country) - is not an appeal to authority I would personally place a great deal of weight on. The fact that you are half a bad lawyer from a legal system different from my own might give a man more prone to self-reflection pause.

I don't believe you're a law grad, let alone from "the UK's top law school," whether that be Oxford or Cambridge. You haven't made a structured legal argument citing examples in this entire thread. You don't know how to make a legal argument.

"The UK's top law school?" Overstating claims is the sign of the bullshitter.

And your claim that India will colonize Mars and develop fusion power before the EU / European Space Agency /Russia, or China because "muh common law" is one of the more absurd things I have read on this forum.

Your thinking is shaped by delusional ethnic and national chauvinism: so you're a UK citizen of Indian descent and you only look at things through those lenses. I get it.

This is the response of the.king and I regarding your sophomoric "muh common law" argument. All of these things you would have known if you were, in fact, a graduate of "the UK's top law school."

Quote: (04-04-2019 03:18 AM)the.king Wrote:  

Quote: (04-03-2019 04:52 PM)Sp5 Wrote:  

Quote: (04-02-2019 01:36 PM)H1N1 Wrote:  

Well, your post in a sense shows why Europeans have such trouble understanding Britain.

'Harmonisation' of laws between member states, particularly between continental Europe and Britain has two problems. One is practical, the other more abstract.

As a practical matter, you cannot harmonise a common law system and a system based on the Code Civil. The two are fundamentally distinct and incompatible in their very natures. One is an organic, judge made system of laws that arises primarily based on the actual disputes and criminal proceedings that comes before it. The other is a codified system of laws that attempts to be complete from point of creation. The latter being, by its very essence, far more bureaucratic to enforce and less adaptable to particular injustice or criminal/legislative novelty. Trying to force one on the other leads to a very unhappy state of legal affairs, such as we currently have in the UK. It also encourages our government to legislate. Prior to our joining the European Union, the amount of actual legislation governments here passed was relatively limited, and it was enacted infrequently. Again, that has all changed, and it leads to legal incompatibility and injustice - something we are seeing a great deal these days here. As some have rightly pointed out, we do now have many more unjust and insane legislation that requires ever more enforcement. This is largely due to our membership of the EU.

As a more abstract point of opposition, the clear end point of 'harmonisation' is a pan-European legal framework, binding on all member states - and the corollary, which is the eradication of national laws in favour of a centralised code. It is the federalisation of Europe, and legal harmonisation is the most potent step to achieving that utopian goal. The legal system of the UK, gifted to many of our former colonies, underpins the greatest period of progress and innovation in the history of mankind, and it is no coincidence in my view that none of the countries that have adopted it have fallen prey to murderous ideology or demagoguery.

There is a third reason, and that is that as a British citizen I have absolutely no intention to be bound by the crooked, corrupt, and extremely inferior laws of other European countries, particularly the Central and Eastern European ones, but I would extend that description to almost all of Western continental Europe too. The idea of being bound by the decisions of Romanian or Polish judges now, or heaven forbid Moldovan or Albanian ones in the future, is simply disgusting to me. Not unfortunate, not modestly or acceptably inferior - unequivocally revolting and unacceptable. I meet and deal with these people regularly, and they are all politically connected and quite prepared to solicit bribes to make sure decisions go the right way. One of the vile implications of the European Arrest Warrant is that as a British Citizen, it is possible that my country will defer (for example) to Romanian standards of justice.

A lot of words here, but little accuracy. "Positive" law - law that actually has an effect - is distilled into summaries, either by legislative codification or secondary publications like jury instructions.

The USA is thought of as a "common law" jurisdiction, yet the law is overwhelmingly set into statutes, like 90% or more depending on which state. Close to 100% in the federal courts.

Yes, judicial opinions about the interpretation of statutes are law. If a statute is found to be unconstitutional, judges can limit it or strike it down.

This is also the case in many if not all European civil jurisdictions.

The European Arrest Warrant isn't much different than any other treaty of extradition.

To use the example you cited, if there was proof you committed a crime in Romania, would you expect to escape justice before a Romanian judge?

There are scores of Eastern Europeans being extradited home from the UK every week. It will be so great for the UK, now maybe they can remain.

Same thing with Brits who can commit crimes and flee to Spain.

Again, almost all of the EU laws are commercial regulations like product standards. The UK will have to follow these to do business with Europe.

The shitshow that's coming with a no-deal Brexit will be entertaining to watch.
Say goodbye to 20% of your GDP.

Some additional points:

1. There is no question of incompatibility, because precedent is binding in EU law as well (case law is binding in both EU + UK law).

The infamous 'freedom of movement' (for example) was shaped almost exclusively through court decisions.


2. Case law has advantages and disadvantages compared to civil law. Its not inherently good or bad. For example you regularly talk about 'unelected bureaucrats in Brussels' - why are you ok if an unelected judge has the power to make laws?


3. Legal precedent can be ignored ('exceptions'), overruled, and at any event statute law is superior. Case law complements parliament legislation. Judges interpret laws, they don't make laws.

On the other hand, in most civil law jurisdictions, prior rulings are taken into consideration, they are of course not completely disregarded (they are not 'binding', but they are not totally disregarded either).

Even dissenting judges opinions are taken into consideration (everywhere)! It is not a black/white distinction.


4. You will of course never be bound by Romanian or Polish law (unless like Sp5 said you do business, commit a crime etc in Romania). A Romanian judge obviously doesn't have the power to randomly summon you in a court there!

What you are bound by, is EU laws and regulations. Nigel Farage for example is an EU lawmaker (member of the EU Parliament!).

There are countries who repeatedly voted to stay out of the EU (see Norway and Switzerland for example), but then realised you either deal with reality or reality deals with you (= life is hard without access to the EU market).

These countries have no voting rights, and yet they submit to most EU laws and regulations (because they have no choice). They contribute to EU budget, accept free movement of people etc. Switzerland is outside the EU, but a member of the Schengen zone (!!).

The really strange part for me is the UK, together with Germany, were the 2 most influential countries in terms of shaping EU law. The UK (unlike smaller EU nations) had actual power to change EU policies.

Citizens of Slovakia or Malta or Estonia may have a point if they talk about lack of sovereignty, but the Brits? I don't understand why.

I think Brexit is just an "alien" psy op to get white euros to leave for other EU countries and to make the rather benign topic the center of political discussion, while the brown hordes take over and turn Londonistan into a Caliphate with a crypto alien leader.

Blimey!

This thread is ramping up to a drive-by disagreement.

Quote: (04-06-2019 06:41 AM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  

Some things in life are more important than a temporary hit to GDP, or even the terrible torture that is roaming charges.

Nobody can disagree that at the end of the day, its up to the Brits to decide what they want.

But there is a fundemental difference between saying:

''Brexit will result in a hit to the UK's economy (& other nasty consequences), but its ultimately up to the Brits to decide''

or ''I want my country to be able to legislate specifically against European immigration, and i'm willing to accept any collateral damage''

and outright lies (false, incorrect statements) such as:

''EU restricts free trade with rest of the world''
''Portugal will sign a trade agreement with the UK''
''Switzerland is out of the EU and is able to trade with the EU without problems''
''I don't want to be bound by the laws of Romania''

etc

----

Opinions should be formed in the face of evidence (facts). Here is a couple of examples of what constitutes an objective, indisputable fact:

- Greece lost c. 30% of its GDP in the years 2008-2015
- There was a 40% increase in suicide rates in Greece from years 2010 to 2015
Link to relevant NY times article

Brexit is a conspiracy from our enemies to put this country into a permanent state of gridlock.

“Divide and conquer” tactics, how the master finally got played at its own game

3 years and counting of this bullshit

I will not be surprised if we make it 5 years of doing fuck all in Parliament except talking about this daily

Quote: (04-06-2019 08:43 AM)AsiaBaller Wrote:  

I think Brexit is just an "alien" psy op to get white euros to leave for other EU countries and to make the rather benign topic the center of political discussion, while the brown hordes take over and turn Londonistan into a Caliphate with a crypto alien leader.

From the Office of National Statistics (ONS)



https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationa...bruary2019

Quote: (04-06-2019 06:41 AM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  

As an American, it's tough not to imagine Sp5 at the Continental Congress, talking about the economic disaster that the colonies will suffer if they dare displease Great Britain.
Some things in life are more important than a temporary hit to GDP, or even the terrible torture that is roaming charges.

More like I'd be at the South Carolina Secession Convention, saying that limiting the expansion of slavery in the West was not worth breaking the Union, and that bad things will happen with secession.

But ya, because the EU is just like George III taxing the American colonies without any representation in Parliament. Does the UK have representation in the European Parliament? Does it have an effective veto in the European Commission?

Quote: (04-06-2019 11:01 AM)the.king Wrote:  

Opinions should be formed in the face of evidence (facts). Here is a couple of examples of what constitutes an objective, indisputable fact:

- Greece lost c. 30% of its GDP in the years 2008-2015
- There was a 40% increase in suicide rates in Greece from years 2010 to 2015
Link to relevant NY times article

Yes, but what you forgot to mention was that EU was 90% responsible for the said destruction of Greece's GDP:
https://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/16/magaz...ope-t.html

That has nothing to do with the UK, of course, since the UK still has its own currency.

Quote: (04-06-2019 11:31 AM)Que enspastic Wrote:  

Brexit is a conspiracy from our enemies to put this country into a permanent state of gridlock.

“Divide and conquer” tactics, how the master finally got played at its own game

3 years and counting of this bullshit

I will not be surprised if we make it 5 years of doing fuck all in Parliament except talking about this daily

No. Brexit is the democratic decision taken by the British people to leave the European Union. It is not to be redefined as the delaying and demoralising tactics used by the traitors in government.

It's a brilliantly effective psyop if you ask me.

These mother fuckers know what they're doing, and are just sitting back laughing at the masses.

I keep getting Facebook posts from People's Vote.

It's fucking ridiculous.

1 million people marching to have the right to (another) referendum?))

Let me know when the riot's start...

Until then I'll save my energy.

Quote: (04-06-2019 12:10 PM)Sp5 Wrote:  

Quote: (04-06-2019 06:41 AM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  

As an American, it's tough not to imagine Sp5 at the Continental Congress, talking about the economic disaster that the colonies will suffer if they dare displease Great Britain.
Some things in life are more important than a temporary hit to GDP, or even the terrible torture that is roaming charges.

More like I'd be at the South Carolina Secession Convention, saying that limiting the expansion of slavery in the West was not worth breaking the Union, and that bad things will happen with secession.

But ya, because the EU is just like George III taxing the American colonies without any representation in Parliament. Does the UK have representation in the European Parliament? Does it have an effective veto in the European Commission?

Don't know how it works, and don't really care. If they do have an "effective veto", it can't be doing them THAT much good, because enough Brits hate the place that they voted to leave.
Not a Brit, so I don't tell Brits what they should or shouldn't do.
But clearly they don't feel they're getting a good deal out of it, so why not leave if it bugs them?

Think about it.

You have the country split between England & Wales vs NI & Scotland

The population split between cities & towns/countryside, degree holders & working class, young & old, Europeans & Sikhs/Muslims

Demographics are already starting to fuck over Leave as baby boomers start dying and all those 15/16/17yos from 2016 are now eligible to vote at 75% Remain

Seems all a bit too convenient that such multilayered paralysis has been embedded into the very essence of the UK with no prospect of resolution

That referendum was genius

Open your eyes, be intensely skeptical

I've seen some absolutely bizarre arguments going on about jurisprudence put forward by one of the Brexiteers here.
So as a non practising lawyer myself, I strongly concur with Sp5 and co there.

However, I myself am still firmly against Britain being in the EU.
Its a symbol of all thats bad about extreme globalism.
Sadly the most of the Establishment have no desire to give us a Brexit.
The Conservatives are governed by offshore corporate greed.
And Labour was hijacked by NeoLiberal Blairites - also governed by corporate greed.

Its interesting that in the recent by-election, UKIP fielded a sleazy little shit Neil Hamilton who should really be banned from politics. But he still got a fair vote as the UKIP candidate.

If the one party state lowlives do try and cheat us out of Brexit I could see mass civil disobedience. The influx of cheap labour has been hugely damaging to many Brits. And it would only get worse by remaining either officially or by stealth.

Quote: (04-04-2019 05:03 PM)Cuchulainn2016 Wrote:  

Second referendum.
This may happen. It will not go the way the elite think. 70% of the people I know voted to Leave and 30% voted to Remain. All 70% who voted to Remain will vote to Remain again. Of the remaining 30%, at least half will vote to Leave. And they all state the same reason, the punitive behaviour of the EU towards the UK after the vote, and the elites who refuse to respect the result of the vote. Everyone I know, says that everyone THEY know feels the same.
Additionally, most people I know who voted Leave have said that they will not respect a second referendum result if the result is to Remain. After all, their vote wasn't respected, so why should they respect the vote of a second referendum. This may not seem that important, but this is what as known as "fighting talk" where I come from. People are talking about the breakdown in democracy and what they will do about it. If they were left wing, I would say revolution is brewing. These are people who are generally ambivalent about politics, they vote but as their lives generally aren't effected by whoever is in power that much, they don't generally get involved in politics in any way. This is extremely significant.

They will have a 2nd referendum and essentially reword it, change a few clauses, then they'll claim you're not being asked to vote on something that's the same. It will be dressed up as reassurance to the EU. "Do you want to reassure the bond with EU?", will be how it is asked.

We were told Ireland in 2008 with a 2nd votewill get concessions/non interference on tax, abortions and military, but sure what odds anyway, what did it matter in the end?

We did this voluntarily in the last decade:

We signed what the small supposedly neutral army we do have thanks to Leo Vadarkar, up to the EU army (PESCO) this year anyway, they're coming after our low corporate tax (we've nothing to offer except being a halting site for multinationals) and we "modernised" our abortion laws to make us align with rest of the EU, except even more radical than any country in the world. We essentially can't even fish our own waters with the embarassment of riches awaiting off in the Atlantic Ocean because of EU environmental quotas, we don't have a ship building industry in what once a country that build some of the best ever created. It doesn't even feel like an island nation anymore.

We don't even think of oil/gas expedition in the untapped Porcupine basin (in our waters) and becoming filthy rich like Norway, because it would require persistence and foresight and bit of faustian spirit, and we can't be seen to be drilling for dirty dirty pragmatic oil in this weak ass wind and solar age, never mind the fact we're we sold the rights of all these off to foreigners for a single Irish pound, you read that correctly. It's be sure great to have all this for the mini ice age wouldn't it? Good luck defrosting your solar panels when a war for resources starts cunts, no doubt they'll have EU tank batteries powered like pocket calculators :L

Wind power is a blight on the scenery where I grew up, creates zero employment and can can only be stored for a few hours, there are whole industries that could exist but barely register here in this nation, coal mines a family relative used to work in employed hundreds, were very well paid, almost equivalent of a teaching salary, but were closed due to stringent EU health and safety rules and that was nearly 30 years ago.

Ireland is only the country in the EU that has had to have a referendum on every EU treaty that came down the line (thanks to our once unusually well devised constitution), it's hard to imagine now but we voted down the Lisbon Treaty in 2008 and put the EU plans to a screeching halt but the EU plowed on regardless brainwashed/scared us good afterwards. In 2009 we voted it by a large majority and we've being compliant since and rather more surprising we voted no back in 2008 when alternative media was barely in people's minds at all.

For the next solid 1-2 years we were told it would be the death of us if we voted no a second time and Ireland would go back to being a bleak boghole morass on the edge of the European continent, primitive or unwelcoming and protectionist, even dare I say it Catholic (the horror), foreign investment would dry up quicker than water on Venus.

Well I've got good news, Ireland is still a damp grey morass in 2019, the bad news is we got now more modernist architecture to go along with and now with the problems of every other western nation just turbocharged.