jariel, so what?

http://www.wtsp.com/news/local/article/2...te-attack-

I could show you a few hundred stories like these with a simple google search.

The South is not scary. It has problems, yes, but scary, hell no. I grew up in a small town in Alabama, and I have lived and worked in Birmingham, Alabama for the past fifteen years. Do I love it here, hell no. I stay for work, but this place isn't bad. I realize, through traveling, though, that there are many cooler places in the world and the U.S. But this is where I am for now.

Is there more racism here than elsewhere in the U.S (or world)? I don't know, and I seriously doubt anyone on this forum, or anyone for that matter, is in a position to rationally call one part of the U.S. (or world) more racist than another. Historically, Birmingham is known for racial tension and there is a divide here in that a lot of African-Americans go to inner-city schools while whites go to schools in the suburbs. However, I doubt B'ham is the only city like that.

When I was growing up, I attended school (k-12) with maybe one African-American. Hell, I remember the Klan marching at my elementary school to protest the attendance of an African-American. Is that sad? Absolutely. Does it reflect poorly on Alabama? Obviously. Does it make all Alabamians or southerners racists? No. What is does, though, is demonstrate the degree of separation between African-Americans and whites of people in my generation (I'm in my 40's) during an essential time of life - one in which kids build friendships and learn alot about life in general. I never thought African-Americans were any different from me, other than the obvious difference in skin color, though, because my parents taught me that I was no different or better than anyone else due to my being white. But, I never had any African-American friends until I got to college.

I believe much of Alabama is slowly changing in that more African-Americans, Hispanics and whites are attending school together. In my opinion, this will improve race relations going forward. I say this despite the fact that most inner-city B'ham schools are predominantly African-American. Everyone in this city wants their kids to go to the most highly rated schools; therefore, all minorities are moving out into the suburbs. In the workforce, I've never seen any racism.

Let me stress that I am not defending Alabama or the South in general. I can't comment on other states in the South b/c I haven't lived there. The problems Alabama has, and the negative perceptions others have of it, are of its own doing, and in many cases, deserved. Those negative perceptions hinder economic development. A fact people in this state realize and are working diligently to overcome. Nevertheless, don't label Alabama, or the South, or any other place as more racist than other places unless you've spent time in both and possess a rational basis from which to make that judgment. Boston has the reputation of being a racist city. However, I've only spent a weekend there, so I don't have an opinion one way or the other as to the truth of that reputation. I would only hope that others maintain a similar attitude prior to passing judgment on the South.

Are y'all scared to chill with country boys and rednecks? Don't tell me west coast boys are soft as wet toilet paper. Don't believe the hype like Chuck D said.

Quote: (03-13-2012 01:12 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

Quote: (03-13-2012 12:11 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

I've always found it a little strange how upper middle class enclaves tend to breed insularity. Many of the people that come out of that environment are unable to socialize with anyone outside their circle. You'll find them years later, with the same friends they made in summer camps and prep schools. One way or another, they're nearly always living in places where they have lots of old friends. Not all the kids are like that, but the popular kids, the ones who run the main scene, often are.

You've just described about 80% of the students on my campus.

Quote:Quote:

Think the sorority girl who can't talk to anyone unless they have sixty friends in common.

And now you've completely nailed down the vast majority of the sorority girls on my campus (and, since most girls on my campus are in sororities...you see where that road leads). I'd give a +1 if we still did that.

These are the type of girls who are very difficult to even get close to. They'll be courteous with you in class one day (because you had to work on an assignment together or something) and then completely ignore you (as in not even look at you) the next. They'll never accept your friend requests even if you've already met them several times and two or three dozen mutual friends (anything less than 60 or so is really a no-go). They only ever talk/date/hang out with certain "socially proofed" folks, people from their world or with very strong connections to it.

I'm a little skeptical that it's 80% of your campus, even at an elite school. But if you go to the right scenes within your campus, these sort of people are ubiquitous.

The worst part is that they get a hugely disproportionate share of the hot chicks. The non-athlete top frats for instance, tend to have cooler guys on average than other frats, but not *much* cooler guys. They aren't as cool as their reputation would warrant. They're largely picked based on social connections, though occasionally on looks, prominence, being cool, or some X factor.

Sororities choose based much more on looks, though still with an eye to other considerations (eg you didn't fuck a sister's boyfriend). Thing is, the hottest sorority girls get indoctrinated into thinking that dudes in the preppy cokehead frat are top dawgs. Once the girl is convinced of that, and you've got that social proof, you'd have to be the biggest loser to make her think otherwise. These top frats have a great scam going. As a guy into game, you want these girls just to judge you for your vibe. You've gotten used to them judging you on your looks and height too, for better or for worse, because that's life. And now, if you didn't get into a top frat, you've got to deal with chicks thinking you're a loser for either not being in a frat, or being in the wrong frat.

I did encounter a lot of what you mentioned. You're talking to a cute chick in your class, and she may think you're alright, but she's already decided that she can't do anything with you before the first word, unless maybe you win the favor of the entire class. If you happened to meet her once at a house party, you're miles ahead. Cute chicks with strong circle and who party a lot would have this mentality of "guys I meet in classes are definitely losers until proven otherwise."

The funniest chicks would be the juniors and sophomores who claimed to be 'above it all' and 'done with Greek life.' I said to two such girls once, let me guess, you guys are in Gamma Gamma Gamma [Mid-tier sorority], athletic, slightly butch/lesbian]. They snarl, "What, Oh my God! Why do you think we're in GGG?! How dare you! We're in Kappa Kappa Kappa [top tier sorority]." I laughed to myself thinking, "well, shows how much you really are 'over' Greek life."

I did hear girls saying 'the guys in Alpha Beta's pledge class are losers this year,' as if something had changed, but frat reputations seemed pretty stable, just like the prestige of universities. That kind of status is so amorphous and hard to assess that it doesn't change quickly.

I didn't grow up with the La Jolla type crowd, but there was a scene at my school with very similar types of people. They were very similar to these preppies, albeit less athletic, though there's very little overlap between the two groups.

One of the aspects of the game that gets severely underplayed here, that's a huge factor in getting quality pussy but is rarely mentioned, is simply access. You can have the same two guys, with equal game, looks and everything, and they will have wildly different results if one has a rich social circle and one doesn't. Yeah, lots of social circles are shitty and not worth the time, but plenty are worth it. Especially if it's just a matter of say, sharing a place with the right group of guys. You don't need that much game if you're in the right setting, and you'll score with some pretty decent chicks.

Quote: (03-13-2012 01:58 PM)ATTA Wrote:  

Obviously as a white guy, I haven't felt racism from other whites. But I'll be damn if some of the most racist incidents I've witnessed/been victim of didn't come from blacks and Hispanics.

I'm sure there are still a few areas that are all-white might intimidate non-whites who pass through.

But inverse is far more common in my experience.

Most of the northern racism isn't real racism, its the middle and upper class afraid of poor people. The white guys in the OPs video would be treated the same way.

Why are they afraid? Because they think they are going to get fucking robbed or raped. And if they are, they are going to get vicious and be bitter about it the rest of their lives, and that is when it turns in to real racism.

Quote: (03-13-2012 02:56 PM)ATTA Wrote:  

Quote: (03-13-2012 02:41 PM)jariel Wrote:  

The story of Trayvon Martin sheds some light on the scary south and the illusion of equality in the U.S.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborhood-wa...1-hxfWQsz4

http://politicalbyline.com/2011/07/17/mo...ensors-it/

Failing to see what your response has to do with mine or the thread at all.

Quote: (03-13-2012 01:58 PM)ATTA Wrote:  

Obviously as a white guy, I haven't felt racism from other whites. But I'll be damn if some of the most racist incidents I've witnessed/been victim of didn't come from blacks and Hispanics.

I'm sure there are still a few areas that are all-white might intimidate non-whites who pass through.

But inverse is far more common in my experience.

Black Americans and Latin Americans have no power in U.S. society, and therefore, by definition can not be racist.

Prejudice exists in life amongst all types of things for a plethora of reasons, we all have them, but we can not all be racists.

Quote: (03-13-2012 03:53 PM)jariel Wrote:  

Quote: (03-13-2012 02:56 PM)ATTA Wrote:  

Quote: (03-13-2012 02:41 PM)jariel Wrote:  

The story of Trayvon Martin sheds some light on the scary south and the illusion of equality in the U.S.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborhood-wa...1-hxfWQsz4

http://politicalbyline.com/2011/07/17/mo...ensors-it/

Failing to see what your response has to do with mine or the thread at all.

You're making the case that the illusion of equality stems from incidents like young Trayvon Martin being gunned down by a white block-captain. (The story has racial/racist overtones, otherwise you wouldn't have posted it.)

I'm making the same assertion by adding that racism or perceived racism cuts both ways with my article.

Quote: (03-13-2012 04:01 PM)jariel Wrote:  

Quote: (03-13-2012 01:58 PM)ATTA Wrote:  

Obviously as a white guy, I haven't felt racism from other whites. But I'll be damn if some of the most racist incidents I've witnessed/been victim of didn't come from blacks and Hispanics.

I'm sure there are still a few areas that are all-white might intimidate non-whites who pass through.

But inverse is far more common in my experience.

Black Americans and Latin Americans have no power in U.S. society, and therefore, by definition can not be racist.

Prejudice exists in life amongst all types of things for a plethora of reasons, we all have them, but we can not all be racists.

Blacks and Hispanics are just as racist as whites.

Quote: (03-12-2012 08:14 PM)houston Wrote:  

This thread is gonna get good...

Quote: (03-13-2012 04:04 PM)ATTA Wrote:  

You're making the case that the illusion of equality stems from incidents like young Trayvon Martin being gunned down by a white block-captain. (The story has racial/racist overtones, otherwise you wouldn't have posted it.)

I'm making the same assertion by adding that racism or perceived racism cuts both ways with my article.

I posted what I posted because it's a recent incident that took place in the south, which is what this thread is about.

You're posting random stories in an attempt to refute something that's irrefutable.

Quote: (03-13-2012 02:36 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

These people aren't racist per se. They're just very insular. To an outsider of a different color, they can feel like the same thing. There invariably are a few non-white people among them, and they aren't treated any worse than anyone else. They may make the occasional casually racist joke, but so does everyone else. It's not racism so much as casual xenophobia.

And as you alluded, they may travel the world but in reality they can be the most provincial, insular people you'll ever meet.

Fair enough. Yes, there are minorities among them, even blacks. They're simply a) very rare and b) extremely well integrated into their culture. By integrated, I don't mean merely speaking with good diction and getting good grades. I mean totally, 100% meshed within this particular cultural strata. These are the type of black kids you'll find on lacrosse teams and in nothing but polo brands day-to-day.
They're one in a million.

Quote: (03-13-2012 03:34 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

I'm a little skeptical that it's 80% of your campus, even at an elite school. But if you go to the right scenes within your campus, these sort of people are ubiquitous.

Well, that class of people (firmly upper middle class or above) definitely constitutes 80% or more of my student body. You'd be hard pressed to find someone with a household income south of $100k here, or someone who has ever even known such a living in their lives.

That being said, you're right. The number who fit your definition of insularity that you mentioned in the last post is probably less than 80%.

Definitely still a firm majority, though.

Quote: (03-13-2012 03:34 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

The worst part is that they get a hugely disproportionate share of the hot chicks. The non-athlete top frats for instance, tend to have cooler guys on average than other frats, but not *much* cooler guys. They aren't as cool as their reputation would warrant. They're largely picked based on social connections, though occasionally on looks, prominence, being cool, or some X factor.

Athletes are fairly common where I'm at, and so athleticism has become a major factor in how top-frats select. There is no such thing as a "non-athlete top frat" here.

The undisputed top houses on our campus are the Lacrosse/Rugby house (which has a handful of "cool" squash, hockey, b-ball and football dudes too) and the Soccer house. The hockey house is up there too.
The football house is third tier at best. People on this campus simply do not like football or basketball. Very little respect for the game or the players, win or lose.

Kind of like the twilight zone, really. Even at middling state schools I've visited (think Albany, Stony Brook, Illinois State, or maybe Maine), football players get plenty of love. Here, things are reversed. Lacrosse players are the clear top dogs as a whole.

My Ivy isn't the only one that fits these descriptions, unfortunately.

Quote: (03-13-2012 03:34 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

Sororities choose based much more on looks, though still with an eye to other considerations (eg you didn't fuck a sister's boyfriend). Thing is, the hottest sorority girls get indoctrinated into thinking that dudes in the preppy cokehead frat are top dawgs. Once the girl is convinced of that, and you've got that social proof, you'd have to be the biggest loser to make her think otherwise. These top frats have a great scam going. As a guy into game, you want these girls just to judge you for your vibe. You've gotten used to them judging you on your looks and height too, for better or for worse, because that's life. And now, if you didn't get into a top frat, you've got to deal with chicks thinking you're a loser for either not being in a frat, or being in the wrong frat.

Exactly.

Guys have consistently remarked on how big a difference becoming a member of a top house here makes. It truly is night and day.

As an unaffiliated guy myself, I largely just don't bother much.

Quote: (03-13-2012 03:34 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

The funniest chicks would be the juniors and sophomores who claimed to be 'above it all' and 'done with Greek life.' I said to two such girls once, let me guess, you guys are in Gamma Gamma Gamma [Mid-tier sorority], athletic, slightly butch/lesbian]. They snarl, "What, Oh my God! Why do you think we're in GGG?! How dare you! We're in Kappa Kappa Kappa [top tier sorority]." I laughed to myself thinking, "well, shows how much you really are 'over' Greek life."

Did you have a Kappa Kappa Gamma where you were?
Around half of the Ivies do, including mine, and I believe they're near the top of the food chain at each one. They are probably the most obnoxious adherents to some of the sorority trends you listed, though even the "lower tier" sororities here aren't that far behind them.

Quote: (03-13-2012 03:34 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

One of the aspects of the game that gets severely underplayed here, that's a huge factor in getting quality pussy but is rarely mentioned, is simply access. You can have the same two guys, with equal game, looks and everything, and they will have wildly different results if one has a rich social circle and one doesn't. Yeah, lots of social circles are shitty and not worth the time, but plenty are worth it. Especially if it's just a matter of say, sharing a place with the right group of guys. You don't need that much game if you're in the right setting, and you'll score with some pretty decent chicks.

Very true. I can certanly speak to this on my campus: if you do not want to run social circle game here or are, for whatever reason, simply unable to do so, you're finished. You have no hope. Even casual hookups here (which are the norm, really-very few relationships) depend on social circles to get connected initially.

The social circle is the end all and be all, especially if you're black or hispanic.

Quote: (03-13-2012 04:01 PM)jariel Wrote:  

Quote: (03-13-2012 01:58 PM)ATTA Wrote:  

Obviously as a white guy, I haven't felt racism from other whites. But I'll be damn if some of the most racist incidents I've witnessed/been victim of didn't come from blacks and Hispanics.

I'm sure there are still a few areas that are all-white might intimidate non-whites who pass through.

But inverse is far more common in my experience.

Black Americans and Latin Americans have no power in U.S. society, and therefore, by definition can not be racist.

Prejudice exists in life amongst all types of things for a plethora of reasons, we all have them, but we can not all be racists.

If a white guy hates or feels superior to me simply because I'm black, I don't hate him so much because he's white, but because he hates me. That is the premise. To a large extent, the racist projects his own beliefs on others. Rather than admit they are a racist, they'll simply say that others feel the same, that way they can say that you are no better than they are.

deleted

Quote:Quote:

Fair enough. Yes, there are minorities among them, even blacks. They're simply a) very rare and b) extremely well integrated into their culture. By integrated, I don't mean merely speaking with good diction and getting good grades. I mean totally, 100% meshed within this particular cultural strata. These are the type of black kids you'll find on lacrosse teams and in nothing but polo brands day-to-day.
They're one in a million.

The same is true of the white guys in there too. They aren't letting in white guys with just good diction and good grades either.

Quote: (03-13-2012 05:18 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

Very true. I can certanly speak to this on my campus: if you do not want to run social circle game here or are, for whatever reason, simply unable to do so, you're finished. You have no hope. Even casual hookups here (which are the norm, really-very few relationships) depend on social circles to get connected initially.

The social circle is the end all and be all, especially if you're black or hispanic.

I would state it in less absolute terms, though your school was probably smaller (which would explain the profusion of athletes), but my first piece of advice for guys doing college game is always get into as many scenes as possible. More scenes --> more party/event invites --> more warm approaches at good events. And knowing more girls --> hooking up with them or their friends when you see them drunk. And figure out which scenes are high value, and which ones aren't.

Quote: (03-13-2012 04:05 PM)ATTA Wrote:  

Quote: (03-13-2012 04:01 PM)jariel Wrote:  

Quote: (03-13-2012 01:58 PM)ATTA Wrote:  

Obviously as a white guy, I haven't felt racism from other whites. But I'll be damn if some of the most racist incidents I've witnessed/been victim of didn't come from blacks and Hispanics.

I'm sure there are still a few areas that are all-white might intimidate non-whites who pass through.

But inverse is far more common in my experience.

Black Americans and Latin Americans have no power in U.S. society, and therefore, by definition can not be racist.

Prejudice exists in life amongst all types of things for a plethora of reasons, we all have them, but we can not all be racists.

Blacks and Hispanics are just as racist as whites.

Here we go....

Quote: (03-13-2012 06:04 PM)Commander Shepard Wrote:  

Here we go....

How are black people and Mexicans not as racist or prejudice as white people?

Racism exists on both sides of the line. This is the thing I don't like about the liberal/Democratic approach to government. The pre-existing beliefs around gender and race are: white = bad/evil, man = bad/evil, if you say anything otherwise you are slammed as being a racist/sexist. Also, women can't be sexist and anyone who isn't white can't be racist.

Quote: (03-13-2012 06:40 PM)All or Nothing Wrote:  

How are black people and Mexicans not as racist or prejudice as white people?

Racism and prejudice are not interchangeable terms.

Everyone is prejudice about something and/or someone, and we can't really do anything about that.

However, racism has to do with power. A Black American or Mexican or Dominican or insert other nationality can't do anything to impede the White American way of life in this country, therefore, they can not be racist.

Quote: (03-13-2012 07:20 PM)jariel Wrote:  

Quote: (03-13-2012 06:40 PM)All or Nothing Wrote:  

How are black people and Mexicans not as racist or prejudice as white people?

Racism and prejudice are not interchangeable terms.

Everyone is prejudice about something and/or someone, and we can't really do anything about that.

However, racism has to do with power. A Black American or Mexican or Dominican or insert other nationality can't do anything to impede the White American way of life in this country, therefore, they can not be racist.

This sounds just like one of those feminist rape claims. Men rape women to show their power over women.

You are just proving my point. Your standard liberal has just as much of a flawed world view as a conservative. Also here is the definition of racism:

noun
[mass noun]
the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races:
theories of racism
prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one’s own race is superior:
a programme to combat racism

Your definition is off bro. It is a LIE to say that not a single Mexican or black don't have feelings of superiority to other races.

Why did All or Nothing throw out Mexicans when someone said hispanic? I forgot every Spanish speaking person is automatically Mexican....poof

Quote: (03-13-2012 07:20 PM)jariel Wrote:  

Quote: (03-13-2012 06:40 PM)All or Nothing Wrote:  

How are black people and Mexicans not as racist or prejudice as white people?

Racism and prejudice are not interchangeable terms.

Everyone is prejudice about something and/or someone, and we can't really do anything about that.

However, racism has to do with power. A Black American or Mexican or Dominican or insert other nationality can't do anything to impede the White American way of life in this country, therefore, they can not be racist.

Here's the definition of racist:
noun
[mass noun]
the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races:
theories of racism
prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one’s own race is superior:
a programme to combat racism

To say that not a single Mexican or black believe that they are superior to other races, would be a grand lie.

Also, the whole racism has to do with power sounds just like, "Rape only has to deal with men asserting their power over women." This just proves my point further. Your average liberal has just as much of an incomplete world view as your standard conservative.

Quote: (03-13-2012 07:41 PM)houston Wrote:  

Why did All or Nothing throw out Mexicans when someone said hispanic? I forgot every Spanish speaking person is automatically Mexican....poof

Because, when people are referring to Hispanics in this thread, they are usually referring to people that come from Mexico/Central America. People who aren't white because they are primarily a mix of Aztec/Mayan with Spanish. Believe or not, I'm Hispanic. Half of my family is from Argentina, but I'm a white guy. That's why I switched over to Mexican.

Hispanic doesn't deal with race it deals with culture (aka anyone who comes from a Spanish speaking country).

Quote: (03-13-2012 07:20 PM)jariel Wrote:  

Quote: (03-13-2012 06:40 PM)All or Nothing Wrote:  

How are black people and Mexicans not as racist or prejudice as white people?

Racism and prejudice are not interchangeable terms.

Everyone is prejudice about something and/or someone, and we can't really do anything about that.

However, racism has to do with power. A Black American or Mexican or Dominican or insert other nationality can't do anything to impede the White American way of life in this country, therefore, they can not be racist.

So true....when ever I break out into a honest conversation with white friends/gf's and they say that....I literally fall down laughing.....I'm like oh noooooo, you don't have a clue what "real racism" is....racism is economic, education, justice, political, social...it's more than me calling you cracker or whitey...it's life and death. But conservative radio has effectively brainwashed ppl that if you say blacks are racist or "reverse racist' you can repel any real discussion about behavior and outcomes.

But I've lived in both the North/South...my personal observation

White bigotry in the north is based on fear and isolation
White bigotry in the south is built on hatred and supremacy -- I ran into mofo's still pissed off about the confederacy, civil war, and general sherman....you wanna piss off a southerner...tell em General William Tecumseh Sherman is one of your heroes...

Mechanico you taking bets on the next person to get banned from this thread?

I am born and raised in the Northeast (New Jersey) and lived in Miami for two years. I agree with the sentiment that racism isn't more or less in one place, just different. People are more open about their prejudice in the South, but Northeastern communities tend to be more homogenous. I think the bigger issue is classism, something that I have experienced more.

p.s. Saying that minorities can't be racist is akin to saying women can't be sexist.

Quote: (03-13-2012 07:55 PM)houston Wrote:  

Mechanico you taking bets on the next person to get banned from this thread?

You're kidding me right? This is why I don't like these race threads. I get sucked into them out of curiosity. Then I see that it is the usual one sided slamming of white people being racist, when in fact, the blade cuts both ways.

Also, this will be the last thing I say. Once again, Hispanic does not refer to race. It refers to people who come from Spanish speaking countries. This includes places like Spain and Argentina, where the vast majority of people are white. It is impossible to say that white people are racist towards white people. The way Hispanic was being used in this thread was to refer to people who are usually a mix of indigenous and Spanish descent from Mexico/Central America. That is why I switched from Hispanic to Mexican.

Either way, I won't say anything else on this thread because I'm obviously detracting from the oh so productive point of this thread. Being, poor white men from the south are scary racists who could possibly be violent too!