I'm not sure if you guys heard of this place, but I got wind of it when it opened a couple years ago. Not a bad to place to be, even if you don't have to do a bid. I say that because Halden prisoners live better quality lives than most middle-class Americans. Most law-abiding, hard working Americans can't afford plasma TVs in their bedroom, personal trainers, sound recording studio time, and gourmet cooking classes. These guys even get access to a stand-alone house where they can host visitors in a private and spacious setting for an entire weekend (all on the taxpayers' dime).

This is where that psycho Anders Breivik who went on that mass shooting spree in Norway last year might be kept if he's not deemed legally insane. Where's the punishment?

Well shit, if I knew this would be my punishment I don't think I'd hold back my criminally insane psychopath tendencies either.

Hen I have all respect for you and your contributions but you're not exactly being objective here. The article clearly mentions the focus on rehabilitation.

Weigh this penitentiary system to the overall Norwegian crime rate and number of recurring criminals.
Compare this to the American system which focuses on long confinement and a high incarceration rate even for crimes on the lower end of the scale (such as possession) - and then look at the numbers of detainees that become institutionalized or hardened criminals.

In short, Norwegian punitive scale and crime rate (by repeat offenders) vs. American punitive scale and crime rate. I have intentionally not supplied the figures because I know what they are (as a Scandinavian I've had this discussion dozens of times on other international forums) and there's a journey in checking these out for yourself.

Which system do you think is the most effective and provides security to the most people?

Somehow Norway missed the point that prison is supposed to be about punishment.

There's a lot of prisons in the U.S. that offer cable TV, aerobics classes, etc. I remember reading one case of the Alaskan penal system hooking prisoners up with King Crab meals.

Quote: (03-02-2012 01:58 PM)Vicious Wrote:  

Hen I have all respect for you and your contributions but you're not exactly being objective here. The article clearly mentions the focus on rehabilitation.

Weigh this penitentiary system to the overall Norwegian crime rate and number of recurring criminals.
Compare this to the American system which focuses on long confinement and a high incarceration rate even for crimes on the lower end of the scale (such as possession) - and then look at the numbers of detainees that become institutionalized or hardened criminals.

In short, Norwegian punitive scale and crime rate (by repeat offenders) vs. American punitive scale and crime rate. I have intentionally not supplied the figures because I know what they are (as a Scandinavian I've had this discussion dozens of times on other international forums) and there's a journey in checking these out for yourself.

Which system do you think is the most effective and provides security to the most people?

I'm not at all making a comparison between the American prison industrial complex and the Norwegian system. That's a whole separate discussion, but I don't find Halden to be a wise investment of taxpayer dollars. Those guys can be "rehabilitated" in more spartan conditions. I mean, seriously, plasma TVs? Rock climbing walls? Personal trainers? Can you explain to me how any of those things are necessary in "rehabilitating" someone? These guys, after all, did break the law. Should a rapist be rewarded in this fashion? I don't think so.


That kind of prison wouldn't fly in most countries around the world.

If I ever get the urge to kill, I know where to go.

Hell, you might want to think about flying to Norway and committing some type of crime (non-lethal, I hope) if you're desperately seeking to improve your quality of life pronto!

Hell yeah Hencredible. Get a passport, ticket and go commit some crimes to enjoy the good life! What a fucking joke.

Yeah man. This is what awaits you....

I'll play along. Would you guys rather have your mother, wife, or girlfriend walking down a dark street next to a guy who came from one of our maximum security prisons in America, allegedly rehabilitated, or next to a guy who commit the same crime but came out of Halden prison, allegedly rehabilitated?

For me, the answer is simple.

Quote: (03-02-2012 01:58 PM)Vicious Wrote:  

In short, Norwegian punitive scale and crime rate (by repeat offenders) vs. American punitive scale and crime rate. I have intentionally not supplied the figures because I know what they are (as a Scandinavian I've had this discussion dozens of times on other international forums) and there's a journey in checking these out for yourself.

Which system do you think is the most effective and provides security to the most people?

You also have to take into account the people. I don't have the statistics available, but I'm pretty sure that Scandinavian Americans have among the lowest crime rates of the various white ethnicities. Think Minnesota. Having a generous, light prison system is a lot more feasible with a less criminal population.

That aside... It's like being a teacher in an honors class vs a class for kids sent to juvenile hall. The honors teacher can maintain order with a much lighter hand, because his students are better behaved, even when they're misbehaving. The juvenile hall teacher has to run a tight ship if he wants anything taught. He must be constantly vigilant to maintain order, and must issue strict punishments.

Hell, part of the reason the whole massacre occurred is because security in Norway is so low, because they have no precedent for it. You can't really say one solution is universally superior to another, without taking account of the character of the prisoners.

That said, like Hencredible said, a lax prison may be appropriate, but they surely don't need such amenities. I was in Norway briefly, and it's rather expensive. I imagine these prisoners are living better materially than some of their free countrymen.

Durangotang - hahaahahaha I hope you're joking. You think a serial rapist who gets out of Neverland compared to TDC is going to be any different? A criminal might, just might have a doubt about doing something illegal again if he hates hard prison life. What the fuck does someone in Norway have to lose? Shit, he can go around raping girls and shanking people and live in paradise!

Quote: (03-02-2012 02:33 PM)durangotang Wrote:  

I'll play along. Would you guys rather have your mother, wife, or girlfriend walking down a dark street next to a guy who came from one of our maximum security prisons in America, allegedly rehabilitated, or next to a guy who commit the same crime but came out of Halden prison, allegedly rehabilitated?

For me, the answer is simple.

That's not only a red herring, but also a false dichotomy as well.

The problem with American prisons surely aren't the lack of plasma TVs, rock climbing walls, and gourmet cooking classes.

All I'm saying is those Halden prisoners can be "rehabilitated" without all those amenities. Those luxurious conditions for lawbreakers--on the taxpayers' dime--are a slap in the face to all the hard working, law abiding citizens that toil for their own keep.

Jesshh.. I'm gonna start sling dope in a Norway street corner if I ever lose my wealth OR, get cancer or aids. I'd bet their prison health care is a lot better than what I would get paying a ton of money to the United Group in America.


Mixx

Quote: (03-02-2012 02:39 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

Quote: (03-02-2012 02:33 PM)durangotang Wrote:  

I'll play along. Would you guys rather have your mother, wife, or girlfriend walking down a dark street next to a guy who came from one of our maximum security prisons in America, allegedly rehabilitated, or next to a guy who commit the same crime but came out of Halden prison, allegedly rehabilitated?

For me, the answer is simple.

That's not only a red herring, but also a false dichotomy as well.

The problem with American prisons surely aren't the lack of plasma TVs, rock climbing walls, and gourmet cooking classes.

All I'm saying is those Halden prisoners can be "rehabilitated" without all those amenities. Those luxurious conditions for lawbreakers--on the taxpayers' dime--are a slap in the face to all the hard working, law abiding citizens that toil for their own keep.

I don't think so. Whatever Norway is doing appears to be working. Only a 20% recidivism rate within two years. According to the Time article, the U.K. and the U.S. is between 50% - 60% depending on the year. Perhaps showing them how to live and get their self-respect back is more effective, after all (according to the article), Norway's rate of prisoners is 69 per 100,000 people. America's is 753 per 100,000 people.

The math is simple, we incarcerate over 10 times the amount of people as Norway. Our criminals get into society and return at 3x the frequency within two years. America's prison system is a slap in the face to us and our wallets.

Quote: (03-02-2012 02:53 PM)durangotang Wrote:  

Quote: (03-02-2012 02:39 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

Quote: (03-02-2012 02:33 PM)durangotang Wrote:  

I'll play along. Would you guys rather have your mother, wife, or girlfriend walking down a dark street next to a guy who came from one of our maximum security prisons in America, allegedly rehabilitated, or next to a guy who commit the same crime but came out of Halden prison, allegedly rehabilitated?

For me, the answer is simple.

That's not only a red herring, but also a false dichotomy as well.

The problem with American prisons surely aren't the lack of plasma TVs, rock climbing walls, and gourmet cooking classes.

All I'm saying is those Halden prisoners can be "rehabilitated" without all those amenities. Those luxurious conditions for lawbreakers--on the taxpayers' dime--are a slap in the face to all the hard working, law abiding citizens that toil for their own keep.

I don't think so. Whatever Norway is doing appears to be working. Only a 20% recidivism rate within two years. According to the Time article, the U.K. and the U.S. is between 50% - 60% depending on the year. Perhaps showing them how to live and get their self-respect back is more effective, after all (according to the article), Norway's rate of prisoners is 69 per 100,000 people. America's is 753 per 100,000 people.

The math is simple, we incarcerate over 10 times the amount of people as Norway. Our criminals get into society and return at 3x the frequency within two years. America's prison system is a slap in the face to us and our wallets.

I think that has more to do with culture.

Norwegians are for the most part a homogeneous group of people who have lived together for a very long time. They have shared values, social norms, and trust, as well as trust in their public institutions.

That is not the case for the US. We are the most diverse country in the world and among the youngest in the developed world. This is also a place where free will, individualism, and liberty reigns.

Americans enjoy way more freedoms than Norwegians.

We are also one of the most unequal nations in the world with many social problems such as drugs, crime, poverty, and unemployment.

Freedom coupled with bad environments can lead to bad decisions.

Quote: (03-02-2012 02:37 PM)basilransom Wrote:  

You also have to take into account the people. I don't have the statistics available, but I'm pretty sure that Scandinavian Americans have among the lowest crime rates of the various white ethnicities. Think Minnesota. Having a generous, light prison system is a lot more feasible with a less criminal population.

That aside... It's like being a teacher in an honors class vs a class for kids sent to juvenile hall. The honors teacher can maintain order with a much lighter hand, because his students are better behaved, even when they're misbehaving. The juvenile hall teacher has to run a tight ship if he wants anything taught. He must be constantly vigilant to maintain order, and must issue strict punishments.

Which came first, the hen or the egg?
Because using your metaphor, why is it that Scandinavia would be honors class while the US is juve? You mention race but is that the only factor? Could it not be that each region's penintentiary system has created (or at least contributed) to these very differing crime rates?

What I'm challenging is the notion that prison is about punishment. It is not. It's about providing security, not just during the time of imprisonment for the criminal but also after.

Quote:Quote:

Hell, part of the reason the whole massacre occurred is because security in Norway is so low, because they have no precedent for it. You can't really say one solution is universally superior to another, without taking account of the character of the prisoners.

Here I have to disagree with you. Security in Norway had zilch to do with ABB's "sucess". ABB is the type of terrorist that's the most dangerous because they are completely below radar. CNN recently had a good article on this: http://www.cnn.com/2012/02/18/opinion/lo...=allsearch

ABB is such a "lone wolf". This is a guy that:

• Acts alone and finances himself buy using proceeds from his own computer company.
• Buys a farm just so he can go undetected when he buys large quantities of fertilizer.
• Blows up a huge bomb in a major city just as a diversion to utilize the confusion to get to his real target.
  

I can not honestly see what type of security below draconian that can protect against a dedicated, intelligent individual with a long-term plan like this. The amount of freedom you'd have to give up to provide that security is doubtfully worth it.

Quote: (03-02-2012 02:58 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

Americans enjoy way more freedoms than Norwegians.

Ooooook, you really have to show something solid to make this kind of claim.

Post-911 (hello Patriot Act!) I would even argue that Americans enjoy fewer freedoms than Norwegians.

Casanova,

Have you ever been to jail in America? I have on three occasions for one night apiece (two for talking back to nazi police officers, and one for forgetting to pay a ticket and getting a bench warrant). Jail in America has been the most dehumanizing experience of my life. I suggest you go get booked in for a night or two and see what you think. Imagine years, surrounded by sociopath guards, and people from broken homes without proper education (and other criminal sociopaths).

The numbers don't lie. Norway is doing a far better job than us at a far lower price.

Quote: (03-02-2012 03:08 PM)durangotang Wrote:  

Casanova,

Have you ever been to jail in America? I have on three occasions for one night apiece (two for talking back to nazi police officers, and one for forgetting to pay a ticket and getting a bench warrant). Jail in America has been the most dehumanizing experience of my life. I suggest you go get booked in for a night or two and see what you think. Imagine years, surrounded by sociopath guards, and people from broken homes without proper education (and other criminal sociopaths).

The numbers don't lie. Norway is doing a far better job than us at a far lower price.

For anyone who wants to see what prisons and jails are like in USA, there is a great documentary done by NatGeo called "Lockdown"

You can stream it on Netflix. Very good show!


Mixx

Quote: (03-02-2012 03:04 PM)Vicious Wrote:  

Which came first, the hen or the egg?
Because using your metaphor, why is it that Scandinavia would be honors class while the US is juve? You mention race but is that the only factor? Could it not be that each region's penintentiary system has created (or at least contributed) to these very differing crime rates?

What I'm challenging is the notion that prison is about punishment. It is not. It's about providing security, not just during the time of imprisonment for the criminal but also after.

I don't mean to say that Scandinavia is honors and that the US is juvy, just that there's a spectrum, and that each country sits on a different place on that spectrum. The more disorderly the people, the greater the punishments necessary.

I agree that prisons in the US aren't necessarily for rehabilitation. They're for protecting everyone outside the prison. The vast majority of serious crime is done by guys with prior crimes. The easiest way to reduce the crime rate is by increasing the lengths of sentencing for guys with prior convictions, by keeping criminals off the streets. Provided the person is guilty of a heinous crime, I don't think most normal people have a problem with this. I just read an article about a local series of a couple dozen bike theft stings, and guess what - every single guy caught had rap sheets, usually pretty long ones.

^^^ I love Lockdown. I've probably seen most episodes. All those prisons shows are great. Their other show "Locked Up Abroad" is awesome too. I think the worse place on the planet is a Peruvian prison, or that notoriously famous one in Brazil(can't remember the name right now).

That Norwegian prison seems like a cool place to chill. Other than the fact that there's no women, it's not such a bad place to hang out at all.

@Casanova, that prison is hard ass compared to the Norway "prison" island

Norway has far less crime than the U.S.

As someone who lives in a country with the highest incarceration rate, most gun violence, and prison rape...I can't judge.

Quote: (03-02-2012 03:08 PM)Vicious Wrote:  

Quote: (03-02-2012 02:58 PM)Hencredible Casanova Wrote:  

Americans enjoy way more freedoms than Norwegians.

Ooooook, you really have to show something solid to make this kind of claim.

Post-911 (hello Patriot Act!) I would even argue that Americans enjoy fewer freedoms than Norwegians.

No problem, sir.

Here's your evidence.

I tend to make sure I have some support before I make some kind of claim.

Also, I've been to many European countries. The US just "feels" freer. You can just get in a car and just go wherever the F your money can get you. Driving in many European countries costs an arm and a leg.

The Bay Area in particular is as free as it gets in my experience.