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Criminality and corruption in Latin America and how to fix it
#26

Criminality and corruption in Latin America and how to fix it

Quote: (08-02-2016 06:44 PM)ElFlaco Wrote:  

Quote: (08-02-2016 11:47 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

Yeah the only way you eliminate crime is by improving the conditions and legalizing the things that crime thrives on.

Improve economics, legalize drugs, and gambling. Take out a leg of their business.

None of those measures would make a big difference. Crime and corruption have cultural roots, not economic or even political ones. Libertarian thinking does not adequately take this into account.

In places like Latin America, people of all socioeconomic classes are focused on themselves and their families, not the welfare of the society at large. There's a lack of civicism. That's how these things go unchecked.

I agree with the pesimissistic assessment, I disagree with the defeatist attitude.

If the people are ignorant start with small improvements to education. Corruption? Get an honest media. Dishonest cops? Check out the thread on that guy in Phillipines.

America was a veritable back water shit hole back in the day too. Rife with backround deals, hit men, dirty cops, and it cleaned itself up. I know because I have a few family journals from the 19th and early 20th century that paint a pretty dismal portrait of America.

So was most of the west too at one point.

Over time any culture can clean itself up. Defeatist attitudes embedded into a cultural milliu are why nothing ever changes.
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#27

Criminality and corruption in Latin America and how to fix it

Quote: (08-04-2016 12:04 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

Quote: (08-02-2016 06:44 PM)ElFlaco Wrote:  

Quote: (08-02-2016 11:47 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

Yeah the only way you eliminate crime is by improving the conditions and legalizing the things that crime thrives on.

Improve economics, legalize drugs, and gambling. Take out a leg of their business.

None of those measures would make a big difference. Crime and corruption have cultural roots, not economic or even political ones. Libertarian thinking does not adequately take this into account.

In places like Latin America, people of all socioeconomic classes are focused on themselves and their families, not the welfare of the society at large. There's a lack of civicism. That's how these things go unchecked.

I agree with the pesimissistic assessment, I disagree with the defeatist attitude.

If the people are ignorant start with small improvements to education. Corruption? Get an honest media. Dishonest cops? Check out the thread on that guy in Phillipines.

America was a veritable back water shit hole back in the day too. Rife with backround deals, hit men, dirty cops, and it cleaned itself up. I know because I have a few family journals from the 19th and early 20th century that paint a pretty dismal portrait of America.

So was most of the west too at one point.

Over time any culture can clean itself up. Defeatist attitudes embedded into a cultural milliu are why nothing ever changes.

Sorry Beast, but even if all of these things happened (which is unfortunately unlikely), Latin America would still not have the standard of living which the west possesses. You'd have to look into making change in the Latin American genome in order to accomplish that.

As for the rampant corruption in the United States in the late 19th-early 20th century, is it little wonder that this corruption became widespread when the US started importing large numbers of Irish, Sicilian, and Slavic immigrants? These populations aren't quite capable of creating high-trust/low-corruption societies either.
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#28

Criminality and corruption in Latin America and how to fix it

Quote: (08-04-2016 12:04 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

Quote: (08-02-2016 06:44 PM)ElFlaco Wrote:  

Quote: (08-02-2016 11:47 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

Yeah the only way you eliminate crime is by improving the conditions and legalizing the things that crime thrives on.

Improve economics, legalize drugs, and gambling. Take out a leg of their business.

None of those measures would make a big difference. Crime and corruption have cultural roots, not economic or even political ones. Libertarian thinking does not adequately take this into account.

In places like Latin America, people of all socioeconomic classes are focused on themselves and their families, not the welfare of the society at large. There's a lack of civicism. That's how these things go unchecked.

I agree with the pesimissistic assessment, I disagree with the defeatist attitude.

If the people are ignorant start with small improvements to education. Corruption? Get an honest media. Dishonest cops? Check out the thread on that guy in Phillipines.

America was a veritable back water shit hole back in the day too. Rife with backround deals, hit men, dirty cops, and it cleaned itself up. I know because I have a few family journals from the 19th and early 20th century that paint a pretty dismal portrait of America.

So was most of the west too at one point.

Over time any culture can clean itself up. Defeatist attitudes embedded into a cultural milliu are why nothing ever changes.

I do believe things are slowly changing, the social media is making more and more evident the ridicule corruption udertaken by the elite politician and their families. We ar even getting trials and so on. The modern times are pushing their corruption slowly. It is true that people in Latin America usually look the other way, but the new generationss are waking up. There are some things that may not change and it will not happen from one day to another, specially when the population in poverty are ignorant and easy to deceive.

My blog: Wolfsout
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#29

Criminality and corruption in Latin America and how to fix it

Quote: (08-04-2016 12:04 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

I agree with the pesimissistic assessment, I disagree with the defeatist attitude.

The typical Mexican is far more defeatest about this than I am, and ultimately they're the ones who would have to fix it. That's why I think that little will change.

Quote:Quote:

If the people are ignorant start with small improvements to education. Corruption? Get an honest media. Dishonest cops? Check out the thread on that guy in Phillipines.

These systems are all intertwined and highly resistant to change. In Mexico, there are powerful forces that are openly preventing the education system from improving. This is going on at a scale unimaginable in the US or Europe. (This is why anyone who can afford to will send their kids to private school.) How would one get a more honest media? How would one get a less corrupt police force? Many measures have been tried and failed. It's not just a few bad apples.

At the political level, votes go to whoever gives the most goodies. Bread and circuses. CULTURAL VALUE: "Darle atole con el dedo" = throw the people just enough crumbs to keep them from complaining, literally, dip your finger in the atole drink and feed the baby that way, giving them just enough to placate them. Political parties have been known to trade votes for cash cards at the supermarket and/or sandwiches. That shows the level of political involvement of the populace. People are not so poor that they need the sandwich to avoid starving. Their vote means nothing to them. Not all Mexicans feel that way, but surprisingly many do.

Here's a specific example of something that sounds easy to fix but isn't. In Mexico City we haven't been able to get rid of illegal vendors in the metro system. We even voted to raise the metro fare a few years ago to dedicate funds specifically towards solving this problem. But once a problem reaches a certain proportion, a critical threshold, and there are major vested interests, it becomes very difficult to implement changes. Only a massive movement of citizen activism could turn this around. And that goes back to my original point. There is not a culture of civicism. People accept the status quo. They are not sufficiently fed up. They find it easier to step around the problem, let someone else fix it (or not) and get on with their lives as best they can.
CULTURAL VALUE: People who try to improve things are called busybodies, "chismosos" (gossips, people who should mind their own business).

There are citizens outside the media who document abuses -- for example, major construction projects that are not properly permitted, that chop down trees in the way, that turn the public sidewalk into part of their property -- but there's rarely a governmental response. (To be more precise, the government often shuts down projects, but for bogus violations, resulting in a payoff or some kind of advantage for a rival business.) The reason is assumed to be corruption, possibly coupled with incompetence. But it persists because of apathy. Most people are happy as long as it doesn't directly affect them too greatly. It's a deeply-entrenched, cultural coping mechanism. CULTURAL VALUE: El que no transa, no avanza = He who doesn't cheat the system doesn't get ahead.

There was a major government construction project a few years ago with obvious corruption. An obelisk (Estela de luz) was built at an extraordinary cost. There was little stomach for understanding exactly who's pocket the money went into. The press covers these scandals for a short time before moving on to the next one. The people don't care.

There is a law/movement right now called 3de3 ("three of three"), aimed at reducing political corruption. Politicians are going through extraordinary gyrations to find reasons not to support it or comply with it. Its success remains to be seen.

[Image: Mt9ztoz.png]

Here's a photo I took near my house. It demonstrates the trust that Mexicans place in their institutions. They prefer to solve problems themselves. Roughly, the sign says: CRIMINAL, CONSIDER YOURSELF WARNED. WE RESIDENTS/NEIGHBORS ARE ORGANIZED AND WE ARE HUNTING YOU. IF WE CATCH YOU, WE ARE NOT TURNING YOU OVER TO THE POLICE. INSTEAD, WE WILL LYNCH YOU OURSELVES.

The forecast for Mexico is not all gloomy. There is a growing middle class and this generation is richer than the last one. More families own cars now. More people can afford to take vacations. In most places, dire poverty is unknown. Family ties keep people above water during tough times. But I'll believe in solutions to crime and corruption when I see small, everyday indications that people care about their country, not just about themselves. Housewives carefully sweep the sidewalk outside their door, but that's where it stops.

I've written here only about Mexico and not about Latin America as a whole, but as far as I can tell, the situation is roughly the same there as well.
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#30

Criminality and corruption in Latin America and how to fix it

Quote: (08-04-2016 12:26 PM)rw95 Wrote:  

Quote: (08-04-2016 12:04 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

Quote: (08-02-2016 06:44 PM)ElFlaco Wrote:  

Quote: (08-02-2016 11:47 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

Yeah the only way you eliminate crime is by improving the conditions and legalizing the things that crime thrives on.

Improve economics, legalize drugs, and gambling. Take out a leg of their business.

None of those measures would make a big difference. Crime and corruption have cultural roots, not economic or even political ones. Libertarian thinking does not adequately take this into account.

In places like Latin America, people of all socioeconomic classes are focused on themselves and their families, not the welfare of the society at large. There's a lack of civicism. That's how these things go unchecked.

I agree with the pesimissistic assessment, I disagree with the defeatist attitude.

If the people are ignorant start with small improvements to education. Corruption? Get an honest media. Dishonest cops? Check out the thread on that guy in Phillipines.

America was a veritable back water shit hole back in the day too. Rife with backround deals, hit men, dirty cops, and it cleaned itself up. I know because I have a few family journals from the 19th and early 20th century that paint a pretty dismal portrait of America.

So was most of the west too at one point.

Over time any culture can clean itself up. Defeatist attitudes embedded into a cultural milliu are why nothing ever changes.

Sorry Beast, but even if all of these things happened (which is unfortunately unlikely), Latin America would still not have the standard of living which the west possesses. You'd have to look into making change in the Latin American genome in order to accomplish that.

As for the rampant corruption in the United States in the late 19th-early 20th century, is it little wonder that this corruption became widespread when the US started importing large numbers of Irish, Sicilian, and Slavic immigrants? These populations aren't quite capable of creating high-trust/low-corruption societies either.

Are we on Stormfront now or what?

Cultural is driven more by spirituality than genetics. Given enough time, the Catholic cultures of central and south America will grow past their issues and evolve much in the same way the Americas did.

At least Elflaco highlighted the plight of his homeland with some background and an honest cultural assessment. Sorry bud but this was just ignorant.
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#31

Criminality and corruption in Latin America and how to fix it

Quote: (08-04-2016 02:48 PM)ElFlaco Wrote:  

The typical Mexican is far more defeatest about this than I am

This was poorly phrased on my part, sorry. I'm not a Mexican. I'm an American who has been living in Mexico for about a decade.

Obviously I don't speak for Mexicans, but I do believe that most middle-class Mexicans would agree with my assessment that culture is holding the country back. "Por eso estamos como estamos" = that's why we're in the f-ed situation we're in.

I recently had a (Mexican) client earnestly warn me not to trust Mexicans. Shortly after that, he ripped me off.
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