[infowarrior1]

As you are all aware. Latin America is a hotbed of corruption and crime. Where criminals give politicians the option of bribe or death. Where Journalists,Policeman and Military are killed for doing their job as well as threats to their families as well.

Where great sections of the country are controlled by criminal gangs with the government nary in sight.

Drug Cartels run rampant in Mexico. MS13 which originated in the United States rampages in Honduras. Criminal gangs control the favelas of Brazil.

And many other examples that research would dig up.


Making a barrier at the border would definitely choke off a lot of revenue for criminal gangs for one thing.

Although it seems the Prison system seems also to be making things worse by serving as breeding grounds for criminals. As you may know from my stance that is amply illustrated in this link:
http://freenortherner.com/2015/01/16/abolish-prison/


What do you guys think? What long term solutions would be required to reduce crime rates over time and raise this continent eventually to the 1st world? Where waterways and water table is free and clean of pollution, where cities and towns become much more beautiful than before and poverty is dramatically reduced.

How is rule of law to be established with criminals running scared rather than emboldened enough to make war upon society?

[Leonard D Neubache]

I read the first six words of the thread title and was interested. I read the rest and I was like whaaaaaaaat?

It will never happen. Water always levels. Demographics always find their place in the world. But if we're indulging in pipe dreams then I'll convey to you an idea of mine regarding crime and punishment.

All imprisonment should be solitary.

Cost be damned. You have access to you priest, doctor, social worker, family and that's it. No more of this business of prison being a gang hangout and recruiting ground where people go in on trumped up drug charges and come out as assraped sexual predators with full-alphabet hepatitis and gang affiliations. You go to the naughty corner by yourself. You have lots of time with zero distractions to think about your life.

That said, this will not happen. Why?

Because corruption runs from one end of our society to the other, and prison isn't an exception. The drug money that moves through the prison systems is epic in scale. Gang money and gang power doesn't have some sort of mystical circuit breaker that ends at the prison walls. Prison is just another version of the street, and the guards are just as corrupt as the inmates.

Think of it this way. You're a prison guard. One day an inmate approaches you and hands you a picture of your family taken from the street in front of your house. He tells you "take 5k to funnel drugs in and orders out, or your family gets raped and murdered".

You know he can make good on his threat, and you know there's nothing anyone will do to stop him. What's your response?

quickedit: There is no first world nansy pansy way to deal with gangs. You want them gone? Everyone with gang tats gets executed on the spot. Anyone on balance of evidence believed to be a gang member or supporter of, gets executed after due process. This has been done with remarkable success in the past. No matter. It is not acceptable to the average first worlder in the slightest.

[DVY]

Firebomb latina America. Shoot all addicts.

Drugs and $ is the root of all the issues @ Latin America.

Latin America is basically one big narco region

[Aurini]

The film Sicario is about this. Too many people in America are addicted to poison, and so long as they're not willing to change there's going to be drug gangs; all we can do is manage things. No different than medical practitioners who are trying to keep some fat lard alive, despite his self-inflicted Type II Diabetes.

[Captainstabbin]

Mass executions, teams of snipers taking out all cartel leadership and airstrikes on cartel assets. Same for corrupt politicians.

[The Beast1]

Yeah the only way you eliminate crime is by improving the conditions and legalizing the things that crime thrives on.

Improve economics, legalize drugs, and gambling. Take out a leg of their business.

[DjembaDjemba]

End the drug prohibition. Show a middle finger to the (western) countries that dragged the region into a drug war.

Educate the masses. Brazil's Bolsa Familia programme was a step in the right direction.

Cut red tape.

[WestIndianArchie]

Great topic.

Get tough on crime has never worked.

For narcotics, legalize all of them. They'll end up being traded like pork bellies. Kills the mega profits. Cuts the organized violence.

Corruption is something else. That's about agents of the state using the power of the state to enrich themselves at the expense of the people.

Everyone tries to game the system, it's human nature. Agents of the state are supposed to be above that, but they're human. You have to create positive incentives for officials to do their jobs, or very negative ones.

WIA

[Cattle Rustler]

Why? So it can be become another "westernized cesspool" like the US and Europe? Do y'all really want the feminists to finally feel safe and take over?

A lot of Latin Americans like LatAm as it is and I certainly don't want it to change. The feeling of paying a cop 60 pesos to get off a speeding ticket feels great, as if I were a baller. Want to speed up a slow ass gubbmint process? I can slip the clerk 100 pesos and be done with it. It's like having the club on lock, differentiates between the haves and have nots.

Shit, if I wanted someone's business shut down all I would need is be on a cop/city official's good graces and grease their palm, get my competitor shut down, and flourish. If you don't like someone, you can have a good old fashioned fight. In the US, someone would try to call the cops and the popo would arrest someone.

Edit: Narcotics is not the be-all. There's still protection rackets, smuggling, pirating software/DVDs, kidnapping, looting gas/oil pipelines.....and legit businesses. The border is full of trucking companies that operation like a mafia, with connections to the mafia (cartels, etc)......to ship something from Mex to US you need to have a truck haul it to the border, then a truck will pick it up at a warehouse and take it across the order to another warehouse, finally a third truck picks it up from the warehouse and continues the journey to the US. Shipping it just across the border alone is a multi-million business.

The only ones who want changes are westerners and poor locals. There are no homeless druggies in Lomas de Chapultepec, Interlomas, Jardines de Pedregal, or Avenida Masaryk.

[WestIndianArchie]

Corruption and crime is why those economies are the way they are. Some of it is even internal.

WIA

[El Chinito loco]

The reality is the kill em' all route really is effective. It's just that not many countries have the stomach to see it through.

Duterte who just became president of the Philippines used this method to clean up his region. He has mobile non uniformed police death squads roaming around shooting drug traffickers and gang members dead in the street.

Davao is one of the safest and most drug free cities. It also has a decent standard of living compared with the rest of the Philippines.

[Stirfry]

(08-02-2016 12:18 PM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  

Why? So it can be become another "westernized cesspool" like the US and Europe? Do y'all really want the feminists to finally feel safe and take over?

A lot of Latin Americans like LatAm as it is and I certainly don't want it to change. The feeling of paying a cop 60 pesos to get off a speeding ticket feels great, as if I were a baller. Want to speed up a slow ass gubbmint process? I can slip the clerk 100 pesos and be done with it. It's like having the club on lock, differentiates between the haves and have nots.

Shit, if I wanted someone's business shut down all I would need is be on a cop/city official's good graces and grease their palm, get my competitor shut down, and flourish. If you don't like someone, you can have a good old fashioned fight. In the US, someone would try to call the cops and the popo would arrest someone.

Edit: Narcotics is not the be-all. There's still protection rackets, smuggling, pirating software/DVDs, kidnapping, looting gas/oil pipelines.....and legit businesses. The border is full of trucking companies that operation like a mafia, with connections to the mafia (cartels, etc)......to ship something from Mex to US you need to have a truck haul it to the border, then a truck will pick it up at a warehouse and take it across the order to another warehouse, finally a third truck picks it up from the warehouse and continues the journey to the US. Shipping it just across the border alone is a multi-million business.

The only ones who want changes are westerners and poor locals. There are no homeless druggies in Lomas de Chapultepec, Interlomas, Jardines de Pedregal, or Avenida Masaryk.

I just spent some time DF (recently rebranded "CDMX") and I agree. Regardless of the drugs (and their huge corrupting influence- I won't deny that) the main problem is apathy. While down there I was regaled with stories of government ministers and spouses with million dollar homes, police kidnappings, and how the recent disappearance of a large group of students was due to the government kidnapping and killing them. All this was told to me matter-of-factly, like you'd report the weather or some other natural phenomenon that happens and can't be changed, and not with any sense of outrage or disgust. It was like "Those students? Yeah, they're all dead. Police killed them. Let's grab a beer." The rich people pay their way of problems and the poor just throw up their hands.

If anything, there was some slight sadness. A good friend said to me that Mexico had a treasure trove of natural resources and arable land, and the government was the one thing preventing them from being a first world country.

[GlobalMan]

They won't be completely "fixed" ever, no matter what initiatives are put in place or even if major issues are tackled. It's the people themselves.

Yes, the demand for drugs has been a huge detriment to Mexico and other places- but they have been corrupt on all levels for far longer than that.

These places will never become the U.S. or UK or Australia no matter what happens.

African nations never progress anywhere because of the values and determination of the people living there.

Colombians are always late or simply not showing to meetings because that's how Colombian culture is.

The Chinese hustle and make their way anywhere in world because that's what's in them.

A country is a reflection of the values of its people, and people don't all hold the same values or inclinations or determination like progressives would like you to believe.

It's a false premise to believe that all peoples are capable of the same thing.

[Cattle Rustler]

(08-02-2016 01:52 PM)Stirfry Wrote:  

(08-02-2016 12:18 PM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  

Why? So it can be become another "westernized cesspool" like the US and Europe? Do y'all really want the feminists to finally feel safe and take over?

A lot of Latin Americans like LatAm as it is and I certainly don't want it to change. The feeling of paying a cop 60 pesos to get off a speeding ticket feels great, as if I were a baller. Want to speed up a slow ass gubbmint process? I can slip the clerk 100 pesos and be done with it. It's like having the club on lock, differentiates between the haves and have nots.

Shit, if I wanted someone's business shut down all I would need is be on a cop/city official's good graces and grease their palm, get my competitor shut down, and flourish. If you don't like someone, you can have a good old fashioned fight. In the US, someone would try to call the cops and the popo would arrest someone.

Edit: Narcotics is not the be-all. There's still protection rackets, smuggling, pirating software/DVDs, kidnapping, looting gas/oil pipelines.....and legit businesses. The border is full of trucking companies that operation like a mafia, with connections to the mafia (cartels, etc)......to ship something from Mex to US you need to have a truck haul it to the border, then a truck will pick it up at a warehouse and take it across the order to another warehouse, finally a third truck picks it up from the warehouse and continues the journey to the US. Shipping it just across the border alone is a multi-million business.

The only ones who want changes are westerners and poor locals. There are no homeless druggies in Lomas de Chapultepec, Interlomas, Jardines de Pedregal, or Avenida Masaryk.

I just spent some time DF (recently rebranded "CDMX") and I agree. Regardless of the drugs (and their huge corrupting influence- I won't deny that) the main problem is apathy. While down there I was regaled with stories of government ministers and spouses with million dollar homes, police kidnappings, and how the recent disappearance of a large group of students was due to the government kidnapping and killing them. All this was told to me matter-of-factly, like you'd report the weather or some other natural phenomenon that happens and can't be changed, and not with any sense of outrage or disgust. It was like "Those students? Yeah, they're all dead. Police killed them. Let's grab a beer." The rich people pay their way of problems and the poor just throw up their hands.

If anything, there was some slight sadness. A good friend said to me that Mexico had a treasure trove of natural resources and arable land, and the government was the one thing preventing them from being a first world country.

Pretty much man. It's all mixed in. There's a former oil minister who would pocket $1 of every barrel of oil produced, he's still walking around. The former PEMEX union head stole millions then fled to Canada and claimed political asylum, it was approved. Those students were pawns of the leftist party, Oaxacan teachers are always protesting conditions and never want to work. Shit has been like that since 2001.

Have you heard about #lordaudi or #ladyaudi? These niggas are upper class and act as if they own Mexico....the real niggas that run Mexico tend to act more entitled.

My uncle ran over some dude and he ended up in ICU.....the price to get out of the situaton? 5K USD. He simply paid and got out within hours. That shit you cannot do in the US and it's why I like LatAm.

http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/articulo/m...-las-lomas

http://mexiconewsdaily.com/news/lordaudi...-dad-dude/

Yeah, Duarte might have cleaned up crime....and he probably embezzled some contracts/money for himself or his close mates. Hardly anyone is clean.

http://www.chilango.com/general/nota/201...varios-mas

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QCrGKm8mg4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeGSzL3t1fs

[Seadog]

(08-02-2016 02:16 PM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  

Shit, if I wanted someone's business shut down all I would need is be on a cop/city official's good graces and grease their palm, get my competitor shut down, and flourish. If you don't like someone, you can have a good old fashioned fight. In the US, someone would try to call the cops and the popo would arrest someone.

...

My uncle ran over some dude and he ended up in ICU.....the price to get out of the situaton? 5K USD. He simply paid and got out within hours. That shit you cannot do in the US and it's why I like LatAm.

While objectively from your perspective these are good things, this is why these societies remain cesspools.

If when the situation were reversed, your family member run over, and then the person walks in hours because they're richer and better connected than you? What would you think of it? Or what if the rich second uncle of the guy your dad ran over paid even more to have your dad killed and you had little recourse?

If your business competitor actually has invented a better mousetrap, for a lower price, him remaining in business, and shutting you down is in the best interest of society. Like the broken window theory of economics, while you prosper, every other member of society is slightly worse off.

I've seen numerous Mexican friends robbed by police just because they're somewhat successful and trying to make a go of it as oil engineers. How many brilliant would-be doctors, inventors, engineers or whatever just never got the chance to prosper there because they either left at first opportunity, or never got the chance? Their society is worse off for it.

For all the faults in the west, some degree of social mobility, law and order, being ppl being held accountable to true fuckups (like some drunk rich kid running down a family) and confidence that you aren't going to be robbed or kidnapped by bandits/police/customs because you ventured into a different state or even just because is worth something.

As to the source, I believe it's a matter of education. To say "all Asians prosper because it's in them" sounds like someone who's never been to Asia. I've worked with grown adults with a grade 6 education, and the logical abilities that go with it. Literally unable to see a step or two down the road of actions, because they're blinded by immediate short term interests. They don't realize that if a thousand people rob each other, not only is no one better off, but they are all worse off from the injuries and associated property damage.

[El Chinito loco]

The reason we love these places aren't because these places are inherently better. Let's not get things twisted. Nothing is actually good about bribing some shitheel local cop to disregard basic laws or his duty.

The cultural and social values of these countries produce better women but are bad for just about everything else.

The real reason we love these places is because it gives us benefits from shifting our first world income, livelihood, or whatever appeal into a third world environment.

It's basic arbitrage.

[porscheguy]

(08-02-2016 02:06 PM)GlobalMan Wrote:  

They won't be completely "fixed" ever, no matter what initiatives are put in place or even if major issues are tackled. It's the people themselves.

Yes, the demand for drugs has been a huge detriment to Mexico and other places- but they have been corrupt on all levels for far longer than that.

These places will never become the U.S. or UK or Australia no matter what happens.

African nations never progress anywhere because of the values and determination of the people living there.

Colombians are always late or simply not showing to meetings because that's how Colombian culture is.

The Chinese hustle and make their way anywhere in world because that's what's in them.

A country is a reflection of the values of its people, and people don't all hold the same values or inclinations or determination like progressives would like you to believe.

It's a false premise to believe that all peoples are capable of the same thing.

TL;DR version from Braveheart.
"The problem with Scotland is, it's full of Scots."

[scotian]

Colombia was fucked up before they began exporting drugs.

[ElFlaco]

(08-02-2016 11:47 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

Yeah the only way you eliminate crime is by improving the conditions and legalizing the things that crime thrives on.

Improve economics, legalize drugs, and gambling. Take out a leg of their business.

None of those measures would make a big difference. Crime and corruption have cultural roots, not economic or even political ones. Libertarian thinking does not adequately take this into account.

In places like Latin America, people of all socioeconomic classes are focused on themselves and their families, not the welfare of the society at large. There's a lack of civicism. That's how these things go unchecked.

[RBerkley]

(08-02-2016 04:44 PM)Seadog Wrote:  

(08-02-2016 02:16 PM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  

Shit, if I wanted someone's business shut down all I would need is be on a cop/city official's good graces and grease their palm, get my competitor shut down, and flourish. If you don't like someone, you can have a good old fashioned fight. In the US, someone would try to call the cops and the popo would arrest someone.

...

My uncle ran over some dude and he ended up in ICU.....the price to get out of the situaton? 5K USD. He simply paid and got out within hours. That shit you cannot do in the US and it's why I like LatAm.

While objectively from your perspective these are good things, this is why these societies remain cesspools.

If when the situation were reversed, your family member run over, and then the person walks in hours because they're richer and better connected than you? What would you think of it? Or what if the rich second uncle of the guy your dad ran over paid even more to have your dad killed and you had little recourse?

If your business competitor actually has invented a better mousetrap, for a lower price, him remaining in business, and shutting you down is in the best interest of society. Like the broken window theory of economics, while you prosper, every other member of society is slightly worse off.

I've seen numerous Mexican friends robbed by police just because they're somewhat successful and trying to make a go of it as oil engineers. How many brilliant would-be doctors, inventors, engineers or whatever just never got the chance to prosper there because they either left at first opportunity, or never got the chance? Their society is worse off for it.

For all the faults in the west, some degree of social mobility, law and order, being ppl being held accountable to true fuckups (like some drunk rich kid running down a family) and confidence that you aren't going to be robbed or kidnapped by bandits/police/customs because you ventured into a different state or even just because is worth something.

As to the source, I believe it's a matter of education. To say "all Asians prosper because it's in them" sounds like someone who's never been to Asia. I've worked with grown adults with a grade 6 education, and the logical abilities that go with it. Literally unable to see a step or two down the road of actions, because they're blinded by immediate short term interests. They don't realize that if a thousand people rob each other, not only is no one better off, but they are all worse off from the injuries and associated property damage.

Certain groups of people in the First World Western countries get off with crimes too, such as Hilary Clinton and her e-mail scandals, female teachers fucking underage students, civil courts siding with female accused, Monsanto in bed with the FDA, Vaccine makers not held liable for deaths in civil court etc.

Corruption by bribery in the Third World vs corruption by elitist gynocentrism in the First World.

Many first world countries are also the prison-industrial complex, as compared to many third world countries who cannot afford more prisoners due to overcrowding.

[OCZ]

(08-02-2016 06:44 PM)ElFlaco Wrote:  

(08-02-2016 11:47 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

Yeah the only way you eliminate crime is by improving the conditions and legalizing the things that crime thrives on.

Improve economics, legalize drugs, and gambling. Take out a leg of their business.

None of those measures would make a big difference. Crime and corruption have cultural roots, not economic or even political ones. Libertarian thinking does not adequately take this into account.

In places like Latin America, people of all socioeconomic classes are focused on themselves and their families, not the welfare of the society at large. There's a lack of civicism. That's how these things go unchecked.

Like Elflaco says, a lot of our problems are directly or indirectly produced by our culture. The colonial scars still quite visible. ( The middle and upper class are generally are from european descendants or mestizos), the cast system was somehow replaced with a money system. The huge difference between the upper classes and the middle clases makes each other impossible to thing as a unified society. The lack of interest of the people and ignorance is one of the main reasons the corruption still goes on. I do believe things are changing, slowly but they are.

I am privileged, I have a quite good life here in Mexico and I don't like Mexico becoming like Europe or the US. There are things I would change of course, but I don't believe things are changing in the next 10 years at least.

[ElFlaco]

Here is a demonstration of why the problems of Latin societies have cultural roots.

I belong to a relatively upscale gym in Mexico. One of the showers has not worked properly ever since I joined. Basically, it shuts off every two seconds, so you have to press a button every two seconds (instead of the usual 30 seconds that the other units require). This makes it almost impossible to bathe adequately. All the users know to avoid that shower. This is a problem, because during the morning rush, there's a line of guys waiting to shower and get into their suits for work. This problem slows everyone down.

Although everyone would benefit from getting this fixed, no one reports it to the management. In US culture, several would have reported this to management on the first day. In Mexico, everyone just shrugs and suffers. They tell themselves that it wouldn't get fixed anyway, so there's no point in trying. It would take a five-second conversation on the way out to bring this to the management's attention. They don't because no one else does and it's not the way things are done.

This goes a long way towards explaining why crime and corruption are so prevalent in Latin societies. There's a culture of look the other way (captured in the colorful expression 'hacerse de la vista gorda' in Mexico), let someone else fix the problem, keep a low profile.

This attitude is gradually changing among a certain sector of society. Right now the search is on for "Lord Audi", a rich kid who tried to run over a cyclist for fun. Social media has made it possible to report violations easily and pressure authorities to respond. But it's a very small percentage of citizens who have the mentality of caring about their communities and their society enough to take even small steps towards improving it. This reality won't change in a generation or two, if ever.

[rw95]

(08-02-2016 06:44 PM)ElFlaco Wrote:  

(08-02-2016 11:47 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

Yeah the only way you eliminate crime is by improving the conditions and legalizing the things that crime thrives on.

Improve economics, legalize drugs, and gambling. Take out a leg of their business.

None of those measures would make a big difference. Crime and corruption have cultural roots, not economic or even political ones. Libertarian thinking does not adequately take this into account.

In places like Latin America, people of all socioeconomic classes are focused on themselves and their families, not the welfare of the society at large. There's a lack of civicism. That's how these things go unchecked.

Indeed. The same can be said of large parts of Asia, Africa, and Eastern Europe. It seems that the only people on Earth capable of producing high-trust and (relatively) low-corruption societies are western Europeans and their derivatives (USA, Australia, etc.).

Of course, as we all know, this does not mean that the west is immune from problems of their own.

[El Chinito loco]

(08-04-2016 11:22 AM)rw95 Wrote:  

(08-02-2016 06:44 PM)ElFlaco Wrote:  

(08-02-2016 11:47 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

Yeah the only way you eliminate crime is by improving the conditions and legalizing the things that crime thrives on.

Improve economics, legalize drugs, and gambling. Take out a leg of their business.

None of those measures would make a big difference. Crime and corruption have cultural roots, not economic or even political ones. Libertarian thinking does not adequately take this into account.

In places like Latin America, people of all socioeconomic classes are focused on themselves and their families, not the welfare of the society at large. There's a lack of civicism. That's how these things go unchecked.

Indeed. The same can be said of large parts of Asia, Africa, and Eastern Europe. It seems that the only people on Earth capable of producing high-trust and (relatively) low-corruption societies are western Europeans and their derivatives (USA, Australia, etc.).

Of course, as we all know, this does not mean that the west is immune from problems of their own.

I think you can leave the U.S. out of that category for now. The corruption is very much baked into the U.S. system at all levels. You may not be able to pay a cop to shoot your neighbor but things are extremely fucked in other ways.

[rw95]

(08-04-2016 11:26 AM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  

(08-04-2016 11:22 AM)rw95 Wrote:  

(08-02-2016 06:44 PM)ElFlaco Wrote:  

(08-02-2016 11:47 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

Yeah the only way you eliminate crime is by improving the conditions and legalizing the things that crime thrives on.

Improve economics, legalize drugs, and gambling. Take out a leg of their business.

None of those measures would make a big difference. Crime and corruption have cultural roots, not economic or even political ones. Libertarian thinking does not adequately take this into account.

In places like Latin America, people of all socioeconomic classes are focused on themselves and their families, not the welfare of the society at large. There's a lack of civicism. That's how these things go unchecked.

Indeed. The same can be said of large parts of Asia, Africa, and Eastern Europe. It seems that the only people on Earth capable of producing high-trust and (relatively) low-corruption societies are western Europeans and their derivatives (USA, Australia, etc.).

Of course, as we all know, this does not mean that the west is immune from problems of their own.

I think you can leave the U.S. out of that category for now. The corruption is very much baked into the U.S. system at all levels. You may not be able to pay a cop to shoot your neighbor but things are extremely fucked in other ways.

Again, relatively low-corrupt. In comparison to nations like Nigeria, China and Russia we have significantly less corruption.