I have noticed that on most game/PUA forums I visit there is a healthy number of Black men asking how they can engage White, Asian, Hispanic women. Many times these threads asking for help degenerate into anything from subtle seemly covert racial attacks to an all out explosions of pent up anger and against Black men. Usually this comes from White posters on these forums. Many seems to wonder why Black men just won't stick to "their own". I'd thought for the sake of sanity, and for the need of clarification on the matter I'd do my best to demystify the answer's to why so many Black men seem prefer White/ non women.

The Roots are in Our History

Since I'm an American, throughout this post Black Americans will be my main point of reference. Since colonial Black Americans have gotten their culture underpinnings from the dominant Anglo American culture. It's safe to say that Blacks have internalized Anglo American standards of beauty since those times. In the antebellum south the Mulatto was given a elevated status among in between White slave master and Black slave. Preferential treatment as given the light skinned mixed race children of slave masters and there slave mistresses. Overtime,
Blacks internalized these belief and began to stigmatized Blacks features while at the same time becoming very much preoccupied with the
White Aesthetic.



Enter: The Somatic Norm Image

I'm very surprised that more people don't talk about the "Somatic Norm Image" with these type of subjects come up. What exactly is the Somatic norm Image? It's an "sociopsychological" concept first identify by a Dr. Henry Hoetink of the Amsterdam center for Latin American Research. It's basically a yardstick for aesthetic evaluation (thus Somatic) and social conduct.To paraphrase him, years of subornation based on cultural or in this case racial differences causes the lower segments to see the dominant segment as superior physically for psychological reasons. In other words the folks the top of the social order set the standards on what or who looks good. Parallels can be found in much of the world. However they seems to most apparent today in ex slave holding or formerly colonized countries (think Brazil,etc), Interesting enough Hoetink Identified the somatic norm image concept while teaching in both Jamaica and the Dominican Republic.

In America the "somatic norm image" of feminine beauty would be Anglo Saxon ( thin boyish figure, very small nose and mouth and blonde hair) not Nordic or Teutonic per se, but definitely not Iberian or Mediterranean. However Black women would be antithesis of feminine beauty by these narrow standards.

Black men's Attitudes toward Black females and the White Aesthetic
To see the extent in which Black and White Aesthetic Ideals overlap one only has to look as far the media. For instance, for many years the music industry has been lambasted for the over saturation of mixed race and Hispanic models in rap and R&B music videos. The inability to properly analyze Black men's sexual motive had resulted plethora of reasons given for his relative lack of interest in Black women. Many times do we have heard she has too much attitude or she's too difficult, but given the evidence it's fair to say not many men have not been influenced by White aesthetic values. It's very obvious light skinned and "mixed" Black women have not been as effected by this value system even though they are often accused of having undesirable personality traits (nasty attitudes,being conceited and vain ,etc) yet their chances for marriage are still considerable higher than for dark skinned Black women.



Why the Chances for this Changing are very Small

The only real chances for a change in the lopsidedness in sexual interest of men would but 1) Heavily self segregation and 2) A change in the somatic norm image of the United States. The first point, self segregation is doubtful. Since the 1960's Blacks have made some considerable strides, particularly in the social arena. Hundred's of thousands have made it into the middle class. According to some study as of 2008 one in four Black men was married to a women other than a Black women (This doesn't account for those who are cohabiting or strictly date non Black women). Many more Blacks have entered the mainstream of American than ever before in it's history, so to think their would be a total reversal in this collective movement is, well...crazy. As far as the somatic Norm image changing, this may be possible with the unexpected growth of the Hispanic population that seems to be amalgamating with the White population at a substantial rate. However, with a static and aging Black population ( and massive incarceration rate for Black men in there prime years). I don't think it will change in favor of a more Black aesthetic. Keep in mind that Black men of marrying and mating age are only around 5 to 6% of total population. What may occur is a darkening of the white aesthetic considering the heavily intermarriage rate of both Hispanics and Asian with Whites. However I can only speculate. Black women seem to the biggest loser in all this since there out marriage rate are considerably lower than black men even with higher education attainment. There is also seems to be reluctance on there part to date non Black men. However, there is still a heavy reluctance of White/non Black males to date of marry a Black women.Whites tend to be more outspoken about there dislike of Black physical features (again the somatic norm image at work).
Only time will be able to tell us what the continued outcome of this social phenomenon will be.

I think you've missed some of the more simple aspects of this topic.

Black players use white women as a come up. Just as white men are willing to trick for Asian, Latin, etc. women, white women are willing to do the same for Black men.

That means if you're Black, and you're banging some white pussy right, what's available to you is rent money, shopping sprees, even a whip if she's got that kind of dough and/or good credit.

Black simps who will marry the white women who the white men don't want are not worthy of any kind of praise, because their bitches are nothing to boast of.

Generally speaking, white women are no prize. Despite having their asses kissed in this country for at least the last half-century, they're still not happy -- I have yet to fuck one that hasn't been in therapy or on anti-depressants for some period in their young adult lives. Look at all the white men provider-type betas losing their hats in divorces in this country, look at all the anti-White American women rhetoric coming from within the PUA/game community, does that not tell you what you need to know about these "precious" white women?

The attitude I have is, I'll take the pussy and the gifts, but no mas.

That attitude is why I'm rolliing through them like Homer in the Mr. Plow episode.

Quote: (10-21-2011 01:40 PM)jariel Wrote:  

I think you've missed some of the more simple aspects of this topic.

Black players use white women as a come up. Just as white men are willing to trick for Asian, Latin, etc. women, white women are willing to do the same for Black men.

That means if you're Black, and you're banging some white pussy right, what's available to you is rent money, shopping sprees, even a whip if she's got that kind of dough and/or good credit.

Black simps who will marry the white women who the white men don't want are not worthy of any kind of praise, because their bitches are nothing to boast of.

Generally speaking, white women are no prize. Despite having their asses kissed in this country for at least the last half-century, they're still not happy -- I have yet to fuck one that hasn't been in therapy or on anti-depressants for some period in their young adult lives. Look at all the white men provider-type betas losing their hats in divorces in this country, look at all the anti-White American women rhetoric coming from within the PUA/game community, does that not tell you what you need to know about these "precious" white women?

The attitude I have is, I'll take the pussy and the gifts, but no mas.

That attitude is why I'm rolliing through them like Homer in the Mr. Plow episode.

I think you missed the purpose of this post. It's simply an explanation as to WHY most Black men are so eager to get with Non Black or Lighter Skinned from a historical perspective ,that's all. I just felt the need for some clarity on the subject.

It sucks to be a black woman.

Quote: (10-21-2011 03:19 PM)Jason Zee Wrote:  

It sucks to be a black woman.

Meh. It depends on how you look at it.

In what way does it suck to be a black woman? The fact they often times can't find suitable black men? If that's the case - its awesome for me.

I always use to be hesitant to approach black girls. But I've found recently, since moving to DC that pretty much all of them are open to approaches from non-blacks and a good chunk of them are usually enthusiastic about being approached. Especially in places like Georgetown and Clarendon because most whites won't at these places.

Quote: (10-21-2011 03:19 PM)Jason Zee Wrote:  

It sucks to be a black woman.

Lose the weight.
Lose the attitude.
No man likes fattitude.

Which one's a man, which one's a woman? The man's on the right, right? Actually, it's the same face with different skin coloring. Darker skin is associated with masculinity, lighter skin with femininity. And men find markers of femininity more attractive, like big eyes, high pitched voices, small bone structure, etc. So liking women with lighter skin is, to an extent, natural, apart from all the cultural influences you cite.

Your explanation is awfully convenient. It leaves black women completely blameless. Fact is, while white women are fat, black women are fatter. The typical black woman has a bigger waist than both white women and black men. Although at the 10th percentile and up, ages 20-39, the difference is pretty minimal.

Black women are also much more likely to have a baby outside of marriage. It's almost a 50 percentage point difference. Meaning the percent of black women who are baby mommas is much higher than the percent of white women. Even among college graduates, there's a 27 percentage point difference - the illegitimacy rate among black female college grads is 7.5 times higher than among their white counterparts. Do you want to date a single mother?

Many of the problems with white women are even more acute among black women. And it's not me saying this, it's the guys who specifically want a black woman, but have found them wanting. I recall Roosh linking such a post in his Twitter feed awhile back. Maybe someone can post a link. I don't have much skin in the game, because I'm not attracted to black women anyway, or Asian women for that matter.

Your theory may have some validity. But there are definitely other factors too.

Quote: (10-21-2011 01:40 PM)jariel Wrote:  

I have yet to fuck one that hasn't been in therapy or on anti-depressants for some period in their young adult lives. Look at all the white men provider-type betas losing their hats in divorces in this country, look at all the anti-White American women rhetoric coming from within the PUA/game community, does that not tell you what you need to know about these "precious" white women?

Not that white women in America are God's gift to mankind, but not all white girls are on meds... I like how you imply that white women are a greater divorce risk, but the black divorce rate is higher than the white rate.

Quote: (10-21-2011 03:54 PM)Mace Wrote:  

Quote: (10-21-2011 03:19 PM)Jason Zee Wrote:  

It sucks to be a black woman.

Lose the weight.
Lose the attitude.
No man likes fattitude.

Nah. It’s more to it than you think. Black women don’t fit the beauty standard i.e light skin, long hair, small facial features.

I find that many black guys, particularly those who grew up in black communities, pedestalize white women while they don't even come close to doing the same with black women. Ditto for a lot of nonwhite guys in general.

Also, I don't think most black men have a particular obsession with white women. It's just that white women are the most abundant and a lot of black guys have difficulty tapping that resource because of social and cultural differences.

Also, the idea that there is a cultural phenomenon of black women being neglected by black men in lieu of white pussy is hilarious. I grew up in a black community and found that most black men prefer black women and that interracial is not as common as you guys might think.

I think most guys will prefer the women they grow up around and are most exposed to and most identify with culturally. Some of course prefer something exotic.

I think a lot of the black guys that are into other type of women are often doing so for the same reason that many white guys here would prefer to date a foreign woman. All the things guys here complain about with regards to American women in general is doubly true for black American women.

Of course I don't deny the physical aspect too of things like lighter complexion and long flowing hair hair being more associated with femininity. Though that may be culturally learned behavior.

I don't buy into the the notion that black men are more eager to meet white or non-black women or the interracial dating/marriage rate would be much higher. You can click on my profile on this site and my travels have a slant to the Caribbean, Central America and South America. I will admit that I am biased to women of color and usually of mostly-African descent. Now will I bang that fine white chick?....Ya damn right, but I may not pursue her as hard as a non-white chick (I will admit that).

I think sites like these are more about banging chicks not from our home nation because we have seen cultural differences/mindsets that allow our "conquests" to be easier. Brothas aren't going to Sweden to hunt for white women. They are hunting for NON-AMERICAN women. Back when I was heading to Toronto almost every other weekend, I was usually banging some non-caucasian chick. All I cared was that her area code was not 202, 301, 410, 215, 610, 212 or 201.

Quote: (10-21-2011 05:51 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

I think most guys will prefer the women they grow up around and are most exposed to and most identify with culturally. Some of course prefer something exotic.

Have you seen any research for this? I'm curious. I recall listening to Loveline once, and a guy saying he thinks he developed a specific fetish (big breasts I believe) because he saw his brother's porn stash when he was young. IIRC, Dr. Drew confirmed that explanation.

Myself, it's 50/50. Didn't know many minorities growing up, and am not attracted to them. But the kind of whites I'm physically attracted to most are not those I grew up with.

@Basil, I don't have any studies I can recall off hand. Just my own observation. I think the more you are exposed to something, the more you'll be open to it. Especially if you are in a situation where you can't opt for your own. Like I'm sure if someone stuck you in Japan for a year, you'd start readjusting your aesthetic preferences and develop a taste for Japanese women.

Xenocrates did a pretty good post on this topic, btw: http://xenlogic.blogspot.com/2011/04/do-...women.html

It's simple, really. Lighter skinned women have less testosterone. Black women comparatively have the most testosterone. Is it any wonder that UNIVERSALLY cultures prefer lighter skinned women? Even among non-whites, lighter skinned women are preferred. Also, black men have arguably the most testosterone, on average. I think all that T requires strong polarity with their partners ie. women more feminine than their black counterparts. This is not to say that black women are not attractive. As an asian guy who mostly prefers asian women, I'd jump at the chance to do nicki minaj or lauren london.

It's worth noting that most people prefer lighter skinned women within a certain boundary.

i.e. lighter skinned black women are more popular among black men than darker skinned black women, however that does not mean that black men have a specific taste for the extreme ends of the color spectrum (white, Asians).

I'm tired of all these race threads.

So what if you do prefer lighter-skinned women?

Stop caring what other people think, get rid of that insecure self-consciousness, and go after what you want. Stop rationalizing, apologizing, or making excuses for your desires and actions.

Women can get away with saying that they like a "tall, dark, and handsome" man, but a man can't say that he doesn't prefer a petite, light, and beautiful woman?

Some guys need a backbone and go after what they like and makes them happy, whether it be lighter-skinned women. Life is short. People need to start realizing that most people don't care about you. Get rid of that insecurity.

If you prefer light-skinned women, then go after them without excuse or apology.

Quote: (10-21-2011 07:49 PM)SHANbangs Wrote:  

It's simple, really. Lighter skinned women have less testosterone. Black women comparatively have the most testosterone. Is it any wonder that UNIVERSALLY cultures prefer lighter skinned women? Even among non-whites, lighter skinned women are preferred. Also, black men have arguably the most testosterone, on average. I think all that T requires strong polarity with their partners ie. women more feminine than their black counterparts. This is not to say that black women are not attractive. As an asian guy who mostly prefers asian women, I'd jump at the chance to do nicki minaj or lauren london.

Can you please provide resources to back up your claim that Black women have more testosterone than other races of women. I have heard this before but I just can’t fully accept this without some sort of evidence.

Quote: (10-21-2011 08:44 PM)Jason Zee Wrote:  

Can you please provide resources to back up your claim that Black women have more testosterone than other races of women. I have heard this before but I just can’t fully accept this without some sort of evidence.

To summarize the literature available on this topic:

Barbara A. Cohn studied samples of 15000 families. Their study showed blacks in California have higher testosterone.

Zhang, Y., Graubard, B. I., Klebanoff, M. A., Ronckers, C., Stanczyk, F. Z., Longnecker, M. P., McGlynn, K. A. studied samples of 150 black and 150 white women. Black women had higher testosterone.

American Journal of medical genetics studied samples of 4 blacks and 26 whites - blacks had higher testosterone

Ross R, Bernstein L, Judd H, Hanisch R, Pike M, Henderson B. in Journal of National Cancer showed blacks have 15% higher testosterone level

On the other hand...

Kubricht and the others (189 blacks 264 whites) showed blacks after age 40 have the same testosterone level

RJ Richards, F Svec, W Bao, SR Srinivasan and GS Berenson (519 blacks 519 whites) showed no difference in testosterone levels between blacks and whites

Jane A. Cauley and others (273 white women and 86 black women aged 65) - showed that androstenedione is lower in black women

Susan M. Gapstur1, Peter H. Gann, Peter Kopp, Laura Colangelo, Christopher Longcope and Kiang Liu (483 blacks 695 whites) - showed there is no difference between blacks and whites

The Boston Area Community Health (538 black, 651 Hispanic, 710 white) - showed blacks have the same testosterone level as whites

Daniel J. Hoffman*, ZiMian Wang and Steven B. Heymsfield (224 samples) - showed there is no difference in testosterone level

Heald A.H.; Ivison F.; Anderson S.G.; Cruickshank K.; Laing I.; Gibson J.M. European (n = 55), Pakistani (n = 50) and African-Caribbean (AfC) origin (n = 75) - showed no difference between blacks and whites (although Pakistani people had lower testosterone

Ross RK, Bernstein L, Lobo RA, Shimizu H, Stanczyk FZ, Pike MC, Henderson BE - showed no difference in testosterone between blacks, whites and Asians

Roland L Weinsier, Gary R Hunter, Barbara A Gower, Yves Schutz, Betty E Darnell and Paul A Zuckerman (23 blacks and 23 whites) - testosterone was lower in black women

This recent study says that "Serum Estrogen, But Not Testosterone, Levels Differ between Black and White Men".

Make of this what you will...

http://ismarriageforwhitepeople.stanford.edu/

Article citing this book in this weeks economist mag

Touches on a variety of topics discussed in this thread

It is real simple.

Atleast 80% of dark women are not attractive. I rarely see an attractive dark/black sista. At the same token I see many attractive light-skinned women.

Dark skinned women are just not viewed as attractive. Plain and simple. This can be seen in the music videos, movies, ect. And is why you see black women using skin whiteners.

The number of actresses and singers that are considered attractive that have dark/black skin are small.

Almost all the top women of color are mostly light skinned or brown skinned

Regardless of all of this testosterone study (which I find very humorous) and how the entertainment industry views dark skinned black women, they are not less dated or less approached than the lighter skinned black woman.

EVERYBODY IS FUCKIN'

It is just that some folks decisions are controlled by THEIR OWN FEELINGS and others allow SOCIAL MEDIA to control it.

Quote: (10-22-2011 08:58 AM)UrbanNerd Wrote:  

Regardless of all of this testosterone study (which I find very humorous) and how the entertainment industry views dark skinned black women, they are not less dated or less approached than the lighter skinned black woman.

EVERYBODY IS FUCKIN'

It is just that some folks decisions are controlled by THEIR OWN FEELINGS and others allow SOCIAL MEDIA to control it.

The topic isnt darker females being less dated / approached or if they are fucking.

Dudes will fuck anything on two legs with a vag.

The issue is about why Black guys prefer lighter skinned women.

The answer is simple.

Quote: (10-22-2011 06:26 AM)Dash Global Wrote:  

It is real simple.

Atleast 80% of dark women are not attractive. I rarely see an attractive dark/black sista. At the same token I see many attractive light-skinned women.

Dark skinned women are just not viewed as attractive. Plain and simple. This can be seen in the music videos, movies, ect. And is why you see black women using skin whiteners.

The number of actresses and singers that are considered attractive that have dark/black skin are small.

Almost all the top women of color are mostly light skinned or brown skinned

Would hit.

Mace,

thats an attractive black chick. but she isnt really DARK BLACK like what most people in this thread are talking about.

even still, that chick represents a SMALL minority/percentage of her race.