[Arado]

(12-04-2011 06:40 PM)Phil Asheo Wrote:  

If I was born in America, i'm not sure if I would ever travel either. I mean you guys have a very large country which spans from colorado mountains to arizona deserts to alaska cold to hawaii hot, heck you can live in the carribean, or the south pacific and still technically be in America. Small countries in europe offer little geographic variety. And I don't see how a French going from paris to switzerland or germany is any more well travelled than a texan who sees the whole south west and north east.

I don't see why this is really that important though. In the US itself, there's access to so many cultures because of the variety of immigrants we accept, so there isn't so much of a monotone culture that we need to escape.

Plus, many of the European travelers I've met before while traveling have been snobby, arrogant, dismissive, and cliquish, in hostels in the US, Asia, Europe, and Latin America. Americans (and Canadians to some degree) I've met abroad have always been more chill and open than Europeans. Europeans abroad seem cold towards other non white travelers while Americans have been much more open. Just my thoughts.

Just because they travel more doesn't mean they're really more accepting and open minded.

[Phil Asheo]

(12-05-2011 11:43 AM)ao85 Wrote:  

(12-04-2011 06:40 PM)Phil Asheo Wrote:  

If I was born in America, i'm not sure if I would ever travel either. I mean you guys have a very large country which spans from colorado mountains to arizona deserts to alaska cold to hawaii hot, heck you can live in the carribean, or the south pacific and still technically be in America. Small countries in europe offer little geographic variety. And I don't see how a French going from paris to switzerland or germany is any more well travelled than a texan who sees the whole south west and north east.

I don't see why this is really that important though. In the US itself, there's access to so many cultures because of the variety of immigrants we accept, so there isn't so much of a monotone culture that we need to escape.

Plus, many of the European travelers I've met before while traveling have been snobby, arrogant, dismissive, and cliquish, in hostels in the US, Asia, Europe, and Latin America. Americans (and Canadians to some degree) I've met abroad have always been more chill and open than Europeans. Europeans abroad seem cold towards other non white travelers while Americans have been much more open. Just my thoughts.

Just because they travel more doesn't mean they're really more accepting and open minded.

+1, I agree, any normal non racist white America is more open minded than a european imo. Even when in europe it is far more common for an white american to start a conversation with me than a european and I'm minority. In fact I can only think of a few european girls who ever approached me but it was because they knew me or recognized me from somewhere (or we had an extend friend network) and they liked me. Whereas I have had complete random americans abroad approach me, in fact i'll never forget this one hot blonde from Montana in Italy who came up to me, em, em em, and there all white in Montana, so I don't think Americans can be any more prejudice, the fish jumped into the frying pan on that one.

In fact I recall when I was part of a group, these Norwegian guys said to my white friends is he with you, in a condescending way of course, and most americans would never be that ignorant in a major diverse city unless they were trying to piss you off.

[Derek]

(12-05-2011 01:43 PM)Phil Asheo Wrote:  

+1, I agree, any normal non racist white America is more open minded than a european imo. Even when in europe it is far more common for an white american to start a conversation with me than a european and I'm minority. In fact I can only think of a few european girls who ever approached me but it was because they knew me or recognized me from somewhere (or we had an extend friend network) and they liked me. Whereas I have had complete random americans abroad approach me, in fact i'll never forget this one hot blonde from Montana in Italy who came up to me, em, em em, and there all white in Montana, so I don't think Americans can be any more prejudice, the fish jumped into the frying pan on that one.

In fact I recall when I was part of a group, these Norwegian guys said to my white friends is he with you, in a condescending way of course, and most americans would never be that ignorant in a major diverse city unless they were trying to piss you off.

It's funny, why always people relate the word racism with lighter human phenotypes. I don't find either Americans(specially white americans) nor Europeans(im talking about ethnic europeans not foreigners living in europe) to be particularly racist. The most racist people I've ever met were all non-white people living in their respective countries whom usually looked down on others who were darker than themselves, in the other hand they worshiped white/caucasians and their most distinctive features for some odd reason I still dont get completly. In some places such as latin america dating someone lighter than you can signify to move up in the social ladder, because being white (more so if you have really white/pink skin and light eyes/fair hair) is perceived as some sort of status symbol, therefore people want to do anything to associate them. In countries like Philippines or Singapore(applies for most of SE Asia) people do have a low-self esteem and they feel deeply lower than europeans and other whites/caucasians. I have a buddy who traveled to singapore and a local female working in a store asked him to not take picture of the local children, because they were not pretty like the white american children (she assumed him to be american).

You dont see that kind of mentality anywhere in the US or Europe. I do think the worst kind of racism is created from those who cannot accept themselves and are always hatin on others who are phisically furthest away from the prototipe they aspire to have (in most cases caucasian/european), or even to individuals whom might resemble themselves.

[Phil Asheo]

(12-05-2011 09:44 PM)Derek Wrote:  

(12-05-2011 01:43 PM)Phil Asheo Wrote:  

+1, I agree, any normal non racist white America is more open minded than a european imo. Even when in europe it is far more common for an white american to start a conversation with me than a european and I'm minority. In fact I can only think of a few european girls who ever approached me but it was because they knew me or recognized me from somewhere (or we had an extend friend network) and they liked me. Whereas I have had complete random americans abroad approach me, in fact i'll never forget this one hot blonde from Montana in Italy who came up to me, em, em em, and there all white in Montana, so I don't think Americans can be any more prejudice, the fish jumped into the frying pan on that one.

In fact I recall when I was part of a group, these Norwegian guys said to my white friends is he with you, in a condescending way of course, and most americans would never be that ignorant in a major diverse city unless they were trying to piss you off.

It's funny, why always people relate the word racism with lighter human phenotypes. I don't find either Americans(specially white americans) nor Europeans(im talking about ethnic europeans not foreigners living in europe) to be particularly racist. The most racist people I've ever met were all non-white people living in their respective countries whom usually looked down on others who were darker than themselves, in the other hand they worshiped white/caucasians and their most distinctive features for some odd reason I still dont get completly.

In some places such as latin america dating someone lighter than you can signify to move up in the social ladder, because being white (more so if you have really white/pink skin and light eyes/fair hair) is perceived as some sort of status symbol, therefore people want to do anything to associate them. In countries like Philippines or Singapore(applies for most of SE Asia) people do have a low-self esteem and they feel deeply lower than europeans and other whites/caucasians. I have a buddy who traveled to singapore and a local female working in a store asked him to not take picture of the local children, because they were not pretty like the white american children (she assumed him to be american).

You dont see that kind of mentality anywhere in the US or Europe. I do think the worst kind of racism is created from those who cannot accept themselves and are always hatin on others who are phisically furthest away from the prototipe they aspire to have (in most cases caucasian/european), or even to individuals whom might resemble themselves.

Racism technically speaking requires a systemic barrier often enforced by social structures. One could say for instance that Saudis are racist to whites because they have a system whereby if you sleep with a Saudi women they will chop off your hands and feet. The problem is they are not just chopping off white people's hands but also brown black and yellow people's hands.

What you're describing of non white "Racist" in countries where whites control all the social structures is basically individual racist bigotry.

It is not funny that people would associate racism with lighter skinned people, its more to do with history. I can't think of a modern African country that invaded europe or Arabia and oppressed them or a modern Arabian country who invaded europe or a modern yellow or brown country who invaded a white country and oppressed them.

I can accept the claim that most white Americans are not racist... europeans, well you may not have travelled europe but in many countries there parties that sound like the KKK routinely win 10-30% support through various nations who say ship all the browns people back.

The reason why such countries with brown skin people discriminate is because of white/european invasion and colonialism. During these days they basically pounded into these people head and brainwashed the from children (europeans controlled the schools) that white = good native/nonwhite=bad; hence the worship of white people and looking down upon non white. Those closer to white or white looking get beneficial treatment historically for those reasons. These "Racisms' simply did not exist prior to european colonialism or arab colonialism is most of the non white world. Even the indian caste is tied directly to europeans and light skinned persian arrival into india. You really think chinese people where fighting over roundy eye and who was less/more yellow before white people colonized them?

That racism comes from Western imperialism that has been internalized by people who went through colonial schooling. You had black people throughout the english colonies singing ba ba black sheep not even knowing it was a racist song despite the denials of some that it is not.

[Luckystar]

(12-05-2011 09:44 PM)Derek Wrote:  

(12-05-2011 01:43 PM)Phil Asheo Wrote:  

+1, I agree, any normal non racist white America is more open minded than a european imo. Even when in europe it is far more common for an white american to start a conversation with me than a european and I'm minority. In fact I can only think of a few european girls who ever approached me but it was because they knew me or recognized me from somewhere (or we had an extend friend network) and they liked me. Whereas I have had complete random americans abroad approach me, in fact i'll never forget this one hot blonde from Montana in Italy who came up to me, em, em em, and there all white in Montana, so I don't think Americans can be any more prejudice, the fish jumped into the frying pan on that one.

In fact I recall when I was part of a group, these Norwegian guys said to my white friends is he with you, in a condescending way of course, and most americans would never be that ignorant in a major diverse city unless they were trying to piss you off.

It's funny, why always people relate the word racism with lighter human phenotypes. I don't find either Americans(specially white americans) nor Europeans(im talking about ethnic europeans not foreigners living in europe) to be particularly racist. The most racist people I've ever met were all non-white people living in their respective countries whom usually looked down on others who were darker than themselves, in the other hand they worshiped white/caucasians and their most distinctive features for some odd reason I still dont get completly. In some places such as latin america dating someone lighter than you can signify to move up in the social ladder, because being white (more so if you have really white/pink skin and light eyes/fair hair) is perceived as some sort of status symbol, therefore people want to do anything to associate them. In countries like Philippines or Singapore(applies for most of SE Asia) people do have a low-self esteem and they feel deeply lower than europeans and other whites/caucasians. I have a buddy who traveled to singapore and a local female working in a store asked him to not take picture of the local children, because they were not pretty like the white american children (she assumed him to be american).

You dont see that kind of mentality anywhere in the US or Europe. I do think the worst kind of racism is created from those who cannot accept themselves and are always hatin on others who are phisically furthest away from the prototipe they aspire to have (in most cases caucasian/european), or even to individuals whom might resemble themselves.

Good points...although I wouldn't say non Americans/Europeans are more racist. But, what you say is quite true.

[Dannyboy]

(12-06-2011 01:28 AM)Phil Asheo Wrote:  

(12-05-2011 09:44 PM)Derek Wrote:  

(12-05-2011 01:43 PM)Phil Asheo Wrote:  

+1, I agree, any normal non racist white America is more open minded than a european imo. Even when in europe it is far more common for an white american to start a conversation with me than a european and I'm minority. In fact I can only think of a few european girls who ever approached me but it was because they knew me or recognized me from somewhere (or we had an extend friend network) and they liked me. Whereas I have had complete random americans abroad approach me, in fact i'll never forget this one hot blonde from Montana in Italy who came up to me, em, em em, and there all white in Montana, so I don't think Americans can be any more prejudice, the fish jumped into the frying pan on that one.

In fact I recall when I was part of a group, these Norwegian guys said to my white friends is he with you, in a condescending way of course, and most americans would never be that ignorant in a major diverse city unless they were trying to piss you off.

It's funny, why always people relate the word racism with lighter human phenotypes. I don't find either Americans(specially white americans) nor Europeans(im talking about ethnic europeans not foreigners living in europe) to be particularly racist. The most racist people I've ever met were all non-white people living in their respective countries whom usually looked down on others who were darker than themselves, in the other hand they worshiped white/caucasians and their most distinctive features for some odd reason I still dont get completly.

In some places such as latin america dating someone lighter than you can signify to move up in the social ladder, because being white (more so if you have really white/pink skin and light eyes/fair hair) is perceived as some sort of status symbol, therefore people want to do anything to associate them. In countries like Philippines or Singapore(applies for most of SE Asia) people do have a low-self esteem and they feel deeply lower than europeans and other whites/caucasians. I have a buddy who traveled to singapore and a local female working in a store asked him to not take picture of the local children, because they were not pretty like the white american children (she assumed him to be american).

You dont see that kind of mentality anywhere in the US or Europe. I do think the worst kind of racism is created from those who cannot accept themselves and are always hatin on others who are phisically furthest away from the prototipe they aspire to have (in most cases caucasian/european), or even to individuals whom might resemble themselves.

Racism technically speaking requires a systemic barrier often enforced by social structures. One could say for instance that Saudis are racist to whites because they have a system whereby if you sleep with a Saudi women they will chop off your hands and feet. The problem is they are not just chopping off white people's hands but also brown black and yellow people's hands.

What you're describing of non white "Racist" in countries where whites control all the social structures is basically individual racist bigotry.

It is not funny that people would associate racism with lighter skinned people, its more to do with history. I can't think of a modern African country that invaded europe or Arabia and oppressed them or a modern Arabian country who invaded europe or a modern yellow or brown country who invaded a white country and oppressed them.

Ummm yes? The Turks/Berbers invaded/conquered Europe several times and ran a white trans-mediterrenean slave trade for more then 500 years, there were also Indo-Aryan invasions into Europe several thousands years ago and they were protypical Brown. The Arabs oppressed a bunch of Europeans back in the day. Lets not forget Hannibal & Carthage, Atilla the Hun, and Mongol incursions in Eastern Europe and how they took Russia by complete force (technically they aren't yellow but still). The Persians killings europeans, The egyptian empire was not white but it was the first of it's kind and i'm sure they oppressed white looking people plenty of times. The Sassanid empire which was another great empire situated next to Rome, was not white and they completely exhausted the Romans for a while. Hell the Romans looked down on blue eyed blonde people, the original Germanic Barbarians were those types, and they were oppressed and looked at like trash and taken as slaves in Rome. Central Asians trying to take over Greece. There are hell lot more examples such as Alexander losing in India. The Arabs, Persians also monopolized trade between Europe & Asia for a while and pretty much ripped off the Europeans, and were actually the first colonizers.

And no, it wasn't just the Indo-Aryan invasion of India but several invasions thereafter that caused the caste system, and there is research saying that there was a caste system put in place even before the Indo-Aryans took over India with the original Dravidians there.

[Arado]

(12-06-2011 10:21 AM)Dannyboy Wrote:  

Ummm yes? The Turks/Berbers invaded/conquered Europe several times and ran a white trans-mediterrenean slave trade for more then 500 years, there were also Indo-Aryan invasions into Europe several thousands years ago and they were protypical Brown. The Arabs oppressed a bunch of Europeans back in the day. Lets not forget Hannibal & Carthage, Atilla the Hun, and Mongol incursions in Eastern Europe and how they took Russia by complete force (technically they aren't yellow but still). The Persians killings europeans, The egyptian empire was not white but it was the first of it's kind and i'm sure they oppressed white looking people plenty of times. The Sassanid empire which was another great empire situated next to Rome, was not white and they completely exhausted the Romans for a while. Hell the Romans looked down on blue eyed blonde people, the original Germanic Barbarians were those types, and they were oppressed and looked at like trash and taken as slaves in Rome. Central Asians trying to take over Greece. There are hell lot more examples such as Alexander losing in India. The Arabs, Persians also monopolized trade between Europe & Asia for a while and pretty much ripped off the Europeans, and were actually the first colonizers.

And no, it wasn't just the Indo-Aryan invasion of India but several invasions thereafter that caused the caste system, and there is research saying that there was a caste system put in place even before the Indo-Aryans took over India with the original Dravidians there.

This is getting way too off topic. I'd even grant that if you look at how whites are treated in Zimbabwe or South Africa, it can definitely be attributed to racism, or at the very least intolerance. When you look at how South Asians are treated in the UAE, how blacks are treated in the "liberated" Libya or Dominican Republic, how indigenous people in Mexico are shut out of power, how the darker skinned are shunned in South Asia, how Tutsis were treated by Hutu, Darfurians by Sudanese, Central Asians in Russia...I can go on and on.

Racism is a reality of human nature, and in no way do I think that Europeans are the worst. I would probably even grant you that they are better than the rest of the world when it comes to racial issues. Remember, genocide is still occurring in the modern era, and Europe is not at fault for that.

However...the debate we have here today is whether Europe or the US has better race relations. And without question, the United States is better. Europe has ruled the non-white world. Aside from small time periods of postwar occupation, the US never has. A black man, with the middle name Hussein, was elected president just 7 years after the worst terrorist attack in US history perpetrated by Muslims. A black woman is the richest woman in America to build her fortune from scratch. A black man recently topped the polls in the Republican primary. An hispanic senator from Florida is hailed as the ideal Republican running mate, while an Indian governor from Louisiana is touted as the future of the Republican party....I can go on and on. A quarter of silicon valley startups founded by immigrants...birthright citizenship...

The US is a settler society. Our nation state is based on ideals. European countries aren't. We praise individual autonomy and the free market. In such a system, any individual's ethnicity is secondary to their ability to make money. Commodifying? Perhaps. Fair and non-discrimatory? Absolutely.

This debate should be hands down. The US has far better racial relations. Can some of us be racist? Sure. Are there remaining disparities? Yes. But does everyone have at least a shot of making it to the elite? Definitely.

[Derek]

(12-06-2011 07:58 AM)Luckystar Wrote:  

Good points...although I wouldn't say non Americans/Europeans are more racist. But, what you say is quite true.

They on average are. There was this venezuelan who married a swedish man and got a baby with him. When the baby (a girl) was born she got dissapointed/sad because she wanted her daughter to look like his dad (have his blond hair and light eyes, and look european) instead of looking like her (she was mixed girl with amerind and african roots). You wont see any extreme attitudes about his own identity and race among europeans or white americans.

[Derek]

(12-06-2011 01:28 AM)Phil Asheo Wrote:  

Racism technically speaking requires a systemic barrier often enforced by social structures. One could say for instance that Saudis are racist to whites because they have a system whereby if you sleep with a Saudi women they will chop off your hands and feet. The problem is they are not just chopping off white people's hands but also brown black and yellow people's hands.

What you're describing of non white "Racist" in countries where whites control all the social structures is basically individual racist bigotry.

It is not funny that people would associate racism with lighter skinned people, its more to do with history. I can't think of a modern African country that invaded europe or Arabia and oppressed them or a modern Arabian country who invaded europe or a modern yellow or brown country who invaded a white country and oppressed them.

I can accept the claim that most white Americans are not racist... europeans, well you may not have travelled europe but in many countries there parties that sound like the KKK routinely win 10-30% support through various nations who say ship all the browns people back.

The reason why such countries with brown skin people discriminate is because of white/european invasion and colonialism. During these days they basically pounded into these people head and brainwashed the from children (europeans controlled the schools) that white = good native/nonwhite=bad; hence the worship of white people and looking down upon non white. Those closer to white or white looking get beneficial treatment historically for those reasons. These "Racisms' simply did not exist prior to european colonialism or arab colonialism is most of the non white world. Even the indian caste is tied directly to europeans and light skinned persian arrival into india. You really think chinese people where fighting over roundy eye and who was less/more yellow before white people colonized them?

That racism comes from Western imperialism that has been internalized by people who went through colonial schooling. You had black people throughout the english colonies singing ba ba black sheep not even knowing it was a racist song despite the denials of some that it is not.

It has 2 sides, Saudi men want to appear racist but yet they drool over blondes, specially slavic and germanic women were highly treasured and took as slaves all across the middle east, so dont be surprised if your blonde gf/daughter get hassled in those countries.

Arabs have always discriminated and pressed blacks in africa, they usually arrived to black dominated areas and took them as slaves. And Europeans colonizing and killing people in the New world/africa doesnt equal to racism but imperialism, they didnt kill natives or blacks because they were of a different race, but they killed them because they wanted to control their lands and expand their empires, as in most cases the natives resisted (which is logical) they had to eliminate them to be able to complete their mission.

And you are wrong this time, I've been to several european countries and did not face/witness any particular sign of racism against me or against other foreigners (be them of caucasian origin or not). You are exaggerating the fact that a small minority of real racist people exist, many of people who adhere themselves to right-wing parties are not racist but are aware that the countries are already full of people and in crysis therefore the easiest to do is to close the barieers and/or sent back lowskilled immmigrants who barely have a job (possibly live on welfare) and who barely speak the local language. So you cannot assumer those few supporters of a ethnic supremacist movement equal to the 10,20,30 or whatever is the percentage of people vote for right wing in ellection days.

In some countries like the netherlands for example indonesians are far more integrated in the society than turks/moroccans are (which would be rather ridiculous if only racial make up were considered because turks and arabs are way closer to caucasian/european spectrum than indonesians), so this not a racial issue but more a historical/cultural one.

Europe is not like America in the sense that you can move there and keep thinking/behaving as you did back in home, because its not a place built up in recent immigrants but rather a place based on native ethnic populations, therefore don't expect people to totally accept you if you don't think like them or you dont show the minimum interest to adapt or learn the local language.

[Phil Asheo]

(12-06-2011 10:21 AM)Dannyboy Wrote:  

(12-06-2011 01:28 AM)Phil Asheo Wrote:  

(12-05-2011 09:44 PM)Derek Wrote:  

(12-05-2011 01:43 PM)Phil Asheo Wrote:  

+1, I agree, any normal non racist white America is more open minded than a european imo. Even when in europe it is far more common for an white american to start a conversation with me than a european and I'm minority. In fact I can only think of a few european girls who ever approached me but it was because they knew me or recognized me from somewhere (or we had an extend friend network) and they liked me. Whereas I have had complete random americans abroad approach me, in fact i'll never forget this one hot blonde from Montana in Italy who came up to me, em, em em, and there all white in Montana, so I don't think Americans can be any more prejudice, the fish jumped into the frying pan on that one.

In fact I recall when I was part of a group, these Norwegian guys said to my white friends is he with you, in a condescending way of course, and most americans would never be that ignorant in a major diverse city unless they were trying to piss you off.

It's funny, why always people relate the word racism with lighter human phenotypes. I don't find either Americans(specially white americans) nor Europeans(im talking about ethnic europeans not foreigners living in europe) to be particularly racist. The most racist people I've ever met were all non-white people living in their respective countries whom usually looked down on others who were darker than themselves, in the other hand they worshiped white/caucasians and their most distinctive features for some odd reason I still dont get completly.

In some places such as latin america dating someone lighter than you can signify to move up in the social ladder, because being white (more so if you have really white/pink skin and light eyes/fair hair) is perceived as some sort of status symbol, therefore people want to do anything to associate them. In countries like Philippines or Singapore(applies for most of SE Asia) people do have a low-self esteem and they feel deeply lower than europeans and other whites/caucasians. I have a buddy who traveled to singapore and a local female working in a store asked him to not take picture of the local children, because they were not pretty like the white american children (she assumed him to be american).

You dont see that kind of mentality anywhere in the US or Europe. I do think the worst kind of racism is created from those who cannot accept themselves and are always hatin on others who are phisically furthest away from the prototipe they aspire to have (in most cases caucasian/european), or even to individuals whom might resemble themselves.

Racism technically speaking requires a systemic barrier often enforced by social structures. One could say for instance that Saudis are racist to whites because they have a system whereby if you sleep with a Saudi women they will chop off your hands and feet. The problem is they are not just chopping off white people's hands but also brown black and yellow people's hands.

What you're describing of non white "Racist" in countries where whites control all the social structures is basically individual racist bigotry.

It is not funny that people would associate racism with lighter skinned people, its more to do with history. I can't think of a modern African country that invaded europe or Arabia and oppressed them or a modern Arabian country who invaded europe or a modern yellow or brown country who invaded a white country and oppressed them.

Ummm yes? The Turks/Berbers invaded/conquered Europe several times and ran a white trans-mediterrenean slave trade for more then 500 years, there were also Indo-Aryan invasions into Europe several thousands years ago and they were protypical Brown. The Arabs oppressed a bunch of Europeans back in the day. Lets not forget Hannibal & Carthage, Atilla the Hun, and Mongol incursions in Eastern Europe and how they took Russia by complete force (technically they aren't yellow but still). The Persians killings europeans, The egyptian empire was not white but it was the first of it's kind and i'm sure they oppressed white looking people plenty of times. The Sassanid empire which was another great empire situated next to Rome, was not white and they completely exhausted the Romans for a while. Hell the Romans looked down on blue eyed blonde people, the original Germanic Barbarians were those types, and they were oppressed and looked at like trash and taken as slaves in Rome. Central Asians trying to take over Greece. There are hell lot more examples such as Alexander losing in India. The Arabs, Persians also monopolized trade between Europe & Asia for a while and pretty much ripped off the Europeans, and were actually the first colonizers.

And no, it wasn't just the Indo-Aryan invasion of India but several invasions thereafter that caused the caste system, and there is research saying that there was a caste system put in place even before the Indo-Aryans took over India with the original Dravidians there.

1. I do not consider Turks white, but I have met many people who insist they are so that is already a cloudy argument.
2. Berbers did invade europe, but did they have a concept of race and racism? Did Berbers say blacks and brown better than whites and did they drill it into the heads of those in italy, spain portugal and south france. I doubt it because racial ideas come as an extension of european nationalism that was developed after europeans invented nation states. Berbers were all about religion if you were white and muslim you were no less than a brown/black muslim. Notice I did not bring up roman conquering of africa, romans idea of racism was the further you were away from rome, the bigger a scum you were. It was not based on skin color.
3. The only Arab anti white racial writing I can think of is a single writer from Iraq who said white slaves were inferior because they were some how less intelligent or something like that. But it is far from a colonial indoctrination. I did never deny Arabs oppressed people, but their oppression was not race specific, they oppressed all non arabs to the point that sudanese are not black they are "arabs" fair skinned syrians are not white they are "arabs" and pakistanis are not indians they are "Arabs".
4. Hannibal had many whites in his army(from modern spain but people who are gaelic), those people in roman times from that part of the world had no concept of race.
5.Persians have told me they are white but a different kind of white = aryan. so it is a mucky debate
6. Ancient Egyptian is a a mix of people, I've never seen of anything from that period to say they oppressed specific races especially when by the time of greek invasion there was white monarchs or puppet pharoahs put in place. Anyhow, North Africa was occupied by Turkey for almost 1000 years and most the people in places like egypt to algeria, especially along the coastal regions have far more turkish ancestry than anything else.
7. I don't see how the Dravidian people could have a caste system when they are all so black unless there was some kind of foreign invader. It has always been my understanding that the caste system was basically introduced by white skinned invaders to cement their social status as superior (which is understandable why a conquering people would do such a thing)

[Phil Asheo]

(12-06-2011 12:59 PM)ao85 Wrote:  

This is getting way too off topic. I'd even grant that if you look at how whites are treated in Zimbabwe or South Africa, it can definitely be attributed to racism, or at the very least intolerance. When you look at how South Asians are treated in the UAE, how blacks are treated in the "liberated" Libya or Dominican Republic, how indigenous people in Mexico are shut out of power, how the darker skinned are shunned in South Asia, how Tutsis were treated by Hutu, Darfurians by Sudanese, Central Asians in Russia...I can go on and on.

Racism is a reality of human nature, and in no way do I think that Europeans are the worst. I would probably even grant you that they are better than the rest of the world when it comes to racial issues. Remember, genocide is still occurring in the modern era, and Europe is not at fault for that.

However...the debate we have here today is whether Europe or the US has better race relations. And without question, the United States is better. Europe has ruled the non-white world. Aside from small time periods of postwar occupation, the US never has. A black man, with the middle name Hussein, was elected president just 7 years after the worst terrorist attack in US history perpetrated by Muslims. A black woman is the richest woman in America to build her fortune from scratch. A black man recently topped the polls in the Republican primary. An hispanic senator from Florida is hailed as the ideal Republican running mate, while an Indian governor from Louisiana is touted as the future of the Republican party....I can go on and on. A quarter of silicon valley startups founded by immigrants...birthright citizenship...

The US is a settler society. Our nation state is based on ideals. European countries aren't. We praise individual autonomy and the free market. In such a system, any individual's ethnicity is secondary to their ability to make money. Commodifying? Perhaps. Fair and non-discrimatory? Absolutely.

This debate should be hands down. The US has far better racial relations. Can some of us be racist? Sure. Are there remaining disparities? Yes. But does everyone have at least a shot of making it to the elite? Definitely.

In south Africa majority of the wealth and resources is still controlled by the white people from colonial era hand me downs. naturally this creates resentment among the indigenous groups who owned all the land but to see basically a foreign people who came in using force to get rich off their resources. Heck america still won't let dubai control its ports, so I don't see how Africans are more racist when whites control most of the financial resources in south africa.

zimbabwe is a bit different but it came down to the fact that upon independence the 10,000 whites controlled 80% of all the arable farmland. Meaning the 12 million black people in a largely agricultural society would be doomed to poverty forever without land reforms. While Mugabe is heavily criticisized for his actions with white farmers, my suspicion is you'd have a full blown race war if he did not do what he did and many white people would end up dead. It is a sticky situation because the apartheid zimbabwe government was kicking blacks off their land and giving it away to white people until the mid 70s. Many of those people want their land back and then you get the so called land occupations. It is not really possible for a willing buyer willing seller plan to work because zimbabwe as a country is too poor to buy off these multi million dollar value farms at market value. The other complexity comes from the fact that for whatever reason (probably not wanting to leave their multimillion dollar farms - the average white farmer in zimbabwe owns 10 farms) the whites in zimbabwe did not return to their country of origin. This is unusual in what normally happened when African countries gained independence. Ie. when mozambique became independent almost all the white farmers left.

I do agree with the rest of your post, but it would misguided to ignore the role of the spanish in dominican republic racism or the role of arabs in sudanese racism or role of the europeans in rwanda genocide etc.

[Phil Asheo]

(12-06-2011 01:48 PM)Derek Wrote:  

It has 2 sides, Saudi men want to appear racist but yet they drool over blondes, specially slavic and germanic women were highly treasured and took as slaves all across the middle east, so dont be surprised if your blonde gf/daughter get hassled in those countries.

Arabs have always discriminated and pressed blacks in africa, they usually arrived to black dominated areas and took them as slaves. And Europeans colonizing and killing people in the New world/africa doesnt equal to racism but imperialism, they didnt kill natives or blacks because they were of a different race, but they killed them because they wanted to control their lands and expand their empires, as in most cases the natives resisted (which is logical) they had to eliminate them to be able to complete their mission.

And you are wrong this time, I've been to several european countries and did not face/witness any particular sign of racism against me or against other foreigners (be them of caucasian origin or not). You are exaggerating the fact that a small minority of real racist people exist, many of people who adhere themselves to right-wing parties are not racist but are aware that the countries are already full of people and in crysis therefore the easiest to do is to close the barieers and/or sent back lowskilled immmigrants who barely have a job (possibly live on welfare) and who barely speak the local language. So you cannot assumer those few supporters of a ethnic supremacist movement equal to the 10,20,30 or whatever is the percentage of people vote for right wing in ellection days.

In some countries like the netherlands for example indonesians are far more integrated in the society than turks/moroccans are (which would be rather ridiculous if only racial make up were considered because turks and arabs are way closer to caucasian/european spectrum than indonesians), so this not a racial issue but more a historical/cultural one.

Europe is not like America in the sense that you can move there and keep thinking/behaving as you did back in home, because its not a place built up in recent immigrants but rather a place based on native ethnic populations, therefore don't expect people to totally accept you if you don't think like them or you dont show the minimum interest to adapt or learn the local language.

1. I do not fully buy the resource only argument. When you look at the writing even up to the 1800s when Lincoln fought as a soldier in the plains indian war, it is clear that it is more than resources. It is not necessary for instance to ban interracial marriage to extract resources or conquer a place. When we invade iraq, we did it for oil. When the brits did it years ago, it was because they were non whites. This is why no one ever bothered to invade east europe and colonize them until what Hitler?
also when the different types of white people invaded each other in the new world, they did not put the kids of french into english schools and tell them french are scum and 3/5 human or put the french on french reserve and ban marriage to french people by english.
2. Those nationalist parties across europe are overtly racist. Those european countries have high cost of living and those women in general are unwilling to have more than 3 kids. I have yet to meet a white women willing to have 6 or 8 kids in my age group outside of america or in europe. Most want no more than 1 and 4 is pushing it. 4 is what is needed to grow the population so europe needs immigrants to pay taxes for the old people social benefits. These nationalist do not oppose white immigration, they just oppose what they deem to be inferior races like browns and muslims and slavic people (because they view them as not real whites)
3.

[Dannyboy]

Why was the guy banned? It looks like he got banned right in the middle of writing that LoL

[Hencredible Casanova]

I try to stay away from these sort of discussions, as I'm more drawn to pua and travel threads, but there was an article just released from the New York Times indicting "New York's Finest" over offensive remarks some officers allegedly made public on Facebook about the West Indian American Day Parade in Brooklyn. Interesting...

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/06/nyregi...goers.html

[Dannyboy]

That guy is full of shit. First of all white people invaded the beezejus out of each other, Eastern Europe not colonized wtf? It was divided among the Prussian, Austro-Hungarian, Ottoman, and Russian empires. There was no way in hell the British would even get past that or even gain a foothold in that territory. WTF the British did not invade Ottoman provinces because they were non-white, they did it because it was another competing empire and they had huge amounts of resources and territory. Of course they tried to propagandize and brain wash each other, are we forgetting how the British called Germans, "Huns" or the various puppet fascist regimes in pre-WWII. Also the guy is wrong on the North Africa, because those countries were autonomous provinces but ideologically aligned themselves with the Ottomans when they were carrying out their white-slave pirate operations.

[Donald Duck]

Racist Woman Tries That My Tram Exerience Sh*t & Gets Thrown Off The Bus!

[darren1michaels]

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2070562/Muslim-girl-gang-kicked-Rhea-Page-head-yelling-kill-white-slag-FREED.html

I cant post links so you gotta copy paste

[Timoteo]

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/1...ign-ruling

And more silliness...the explanation for posting the sign was particularly amusing.

[Donald Duck]

Far-right Italian author shoots dead two Africans before turning gun on himself

http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/12/13/...-africans/

[Timoteo]

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/1...ents-staff

I found this to be particularly disappointing...

[americanInEurope]

after being back home for 3 weeks, I'd like to recant my stance lol.

I think someone already aludes to this, but the basic statement that boils down race relations in both countries is for a black man, Europe is better for female courtships, America is better for jobs and making money.

in america it's in the back if everyone's mind because we only see our differences. people generally don't use their brains either. to give you an example, I can be in an expensive hotel, clearly a guest, clearly able to afford it, clearly eating breakfast and reading the paper on my expensive android tablet, then jump into my 100k plus sports car, and they'll still clutch their purse around me as if they have something I want or can't afford. if thats not insulting enough, ive had fat white girls cover their breasts around me like i want them or something, even with my beautiful and thin euro girl at the table with me. its really insulting actually lol. but in a room full of white people they'll leave their purse on the table, or their kid unattended, even with a Jerry Sandusky type of character lurking in the shadows. they fear the unknown, not the dangerous. depending on where you go in the country, its still taboo to date a black man. they may want to, they may even dream to, but will never act on it out of fear. and the more intelligent you are, the more money you make, the worst treatment you'll get from her family and friends. in most places, money doesn't transcend race. actually more money makes it worse in blue collar white areas like the PA and the Midwest. the more people there hear about my exploits in europe, the more pissed they get. the more black folks living in an area, the worse race relations tend to be. most white people fear black people when there is a large population of blacks nearby. everybody is so good at ignoring each other. it's like an art form. idk why, but that's what I've noticed. I haven't been out west too much yet, but I've seen this almost exclusively the case on the east coast. success can be gained easily in America if you work hard and get a good education. some people here think that success and all the good jobs in the country are their birthright and entitlement because their ancestors where the hard working people that built the country, forgetting that things like skill and being the best is what gets you a job nowadays. but you can only ride on the success of generations back for so long, and those people will hate your success because in their eyes you don't deserve it. its affirmative action or whatever. all the other hard working white/black people in the country will not see things like that. also I've seen more black people in good meaningful jobs here than anywhere else. job wise, america really is the best place in the world. depending on how you are, nothing else may really matter.

in europe, women have been doing whatever the fuck they want to do there since the middle ages. there are pockets where girls just won't give you a chance, but for the most part if you can speak the local language you're in no matter what color you are. but european guys are extreme fucking haters, and everywhere you go you stick out. in a good way or bad way. and there is no just blending in with a black man in eastern europe. you always have to have your game face on. always taking part in some kind of sick play. its almost like, ok you're black now what? what do you guys do? also forget about a job. the euro guys who run the establishment are not trying to let your black american ass get anywhere near their level of success. but if you come in with money or status, it can transcend your race. euro guys recognize money, and they may hate you but they will respect your status. euro girls could give a fuck about money and status lol.

both places form sweeping opinions about people without actually talking to them. both places base first asumptions on skin color and clothing. both places have lots of open minded people who don't follow the flow of others.

anyway just my humble opinion again.

[pitt]

AmericainEurope it may be true that european girls are not as golddiggers as other nationalities but i wouldnt necessarily say that they dont give a fuck about money and status, it all depends how much money you are talking about or how much financial value you portray. I have been on european first class fights and i had top model women (working as flight attendants) eye fucking me hard and trying to start convo as if i were the salvation for their problems, i have walked in 5 star hotels in south of europe with an expensive suit and i could clearly notice the difference from the women working there towards me (I am 25 now, this was like 2 years ago). So its all about how much value are you actually displaying..were you driving expensive cars there? Did you stay at expensive hotels? Were you super dressed at all times? Eating at expensive restaurants everyday? (I say everyday because when women see you eating in an expensive restaurant everyday, they immediately sense that you have money.

Now if you have 5 million dollars in your bank but you dont display much financial value, you will be treated like a normal person. Money TALKS everywhere and i am talking serious money now, not 10k a month.

[Kish]

(12-31-2011 10:31 AM)americanInEurope Wrote:  

after being back home for 3 weeks, I'd like to recant my stance lol.

I think someone already aludes to this, but the basic statement that boils down race relations in both countries is for a black man, Europe is better for female courtships, America is better for jobs and making money.

in america it's in the back if everyone's mind because we only see our differences. people generally don't use their brains either. to give you an example, I can be in an expensive hotel, clearly a guest, clearly able to afford it, clearly eating breakfast and reading the paper on my expensive android tablet, then jump into my 100k plus sports car, and they'll still clutch their purse around me. but in a room full of white people they'll leave their purse on the table, or their kid unattended, even with a Jerry Sandusky type of character lurking in the shadows. they fear the unknown, not the dangerous. depending on where you go in the country, its still taboo to date a black man. they may want to, they may even dream to, but will never act on it out of fear. and the more intelligent you are, the more money you make, the worst treatment you'll get from her family and friends. in most places, money doesn't transcend race. actually more money makes it worse in blue collar white areas like the PA and the Midwest. the more people there hear about my exploits in europe, the more pissed they get. the more black folks living in an area, the worse race relations tend to be. most white people fear black people when there is a large population of blacks nearby. everybody is so good at ignoring each other. it's like an art form. idk why, but that's what I've noticed. I haven't been out west too much yet, but I've seen this almost exclusively the case on the east coast. success can be gained easily in America if you work hard and get a good education. some people here think that success and all the good jobs in the country are their birthright and entitlement because their ancestors where the hard working people that built the country, forgetting that things like skill and being the best is what gets you a job nowadays. but you can only ride on the success of generations back for so long, and those people will hate your success because in their eyes you don't deserve it. its affirmative action or whatever. all the other hard working white/black people in the country will not see things like that. also I've seen more black people in good meaningful jobs here than anywhere else. job wise, america really is the best place in the world. depending on how you are, nothing else may really matter.

in europe, women have been doing whatever the fuck they want to do there since the middle ages. there are pockets where girls just won't give you a chance, but for the most part if you can speak the local language you're in no matter what color you are. but european guys are extreme fucking haters, and everywhere you go you stick out. in a good way or bad way. there is no just blending in with a black man in europe. you always have to have your game face on. always taking part in some kind of sick play. its almost like, ok you're black now what? what do you guys do? also forget about a job. the euro guys who run the establishment are not trying to let your black american ass get anywhere near their level of success. but if you come in with money or status, it can transcend your race. euro guys recognize money, and they may hate you but they will respect your status. euro girls could give a fuck about money and status lol.

both places form sweeping opinions about people without actually talking to them. both places base first asumptions on skin color and clothing. both places have lots of open minded people who don't follow the flow of others.

anyway just my humble opinion again.

America is racist as hell but i still think there's a lot of opportunities here to date interracially. Everything you said in your post is true especially in those racist pockets of the country(such as the DMV). As you said it gets better for black dudes as they get out of the major cities. Also, you should def try the westcoast. From my brief time out there I can tell you it's better then the dc/md area.

Check out the video below. Another American guy having a post travel hangover.

[Donald Duck]

We have to look at the perspective of non-black minorities too. I think this thread is focusing too much on black in Europe vs black in USA. For black guys I'd say Western Europe is definitely better in terms of race relations whereas a Turkish man could have a better life in USA vs Western Europe.

[americanInEurope]

(12-31-2011 10:58 AM)pitt Wrote:  

AmericainEurope it may be true that european girls are not as golddiggers as other nationalities but i wouldnt necessarily say that they dont give a fuck about money and status, it all depends how much money you are talking about or how much financial value you portray. I have been on european first class fights and i had top model women (working as flight attendants) eye fucking me hard and trying to start convo as if i were the salvation for their problems, i have walked in 5 star hotels in south of europe with an expensive suit and i could clearly notice the difference from the women working there towards me (I am 25 now, this was like 2 years ago). So its all about how much value are you actually displaying..were you driving expensive cars there? Did you stay at expensive hotels? Were you super dressed at all times? Eating at expensive restaurants everyday? (I say everyday because when women see you eating in an expensive restaurant everyday, they immediately sense that you have money.

Now if you have 5 million dollars in your bank but you dont display much financial value, you will be treated like a normal person. Money TALKS everywhere and i am talking serious money now, not 10k a month.

true putting together a good presentation will get you in good almost anywhere, with the excption of maybe working class neighborhoods in England and France. and there are small groups of euro girls that frequently come in contact with rich guys and as a result are fazed by money. but in my experience, countries like germany and sweden have their share of rich douchebags driving around in Ferrari's and to them its kinda overkill. its nice to see what they consider a down to earth guy. a guy who can just pay his own way, thats all. I make like 10x as much as the college guys I'm rubbing shoulders with at party's, but most of the time they pull the girl. even when everyone sees me pull up in my expensive car and hear the American accent. i mostly frequented informal events because my friends where a lot younger, and i look younger than i am. so even at black tie events if i'm dressed to the nine, and have money in the bank, I still have to tap dance around the room, make people laugh and keep my game face on because I'm a young black dude and don't really belong there. an older white guy doesn't have to do that. I find a lot of Russian and EE girls falling for the money more than W.Euro girls. idk why, but its very rare to see a German girl talking about how rich her BF is. plus most of the staff at hotels and restuarants are Russian and EE anyway because they are the hottest. not to generalize, but that's just what I see and hear from hotel staff I've fucked.