[Teedub]

So last night I broke up with a girl I considered to be potential marriage and mother material. And soon too. She's intelligent, funny, great figure, Central/Eastern European, not promiscuous (though probably makes up for that in a different way, which I'll get into), and we just basically get on really well. The age gap isn't what I'd choose if I were a millionaire, but it is what it is. I find women in their early 20s pretty much intolerable conversation-wise for anything serious too, if I'm honest.

We'd been going out a few years ago, but due to geographical changes we had to call time on it. It was difficult then, but there were other reasons also which are unnecessary to go into detail about.

However, we rekindled it last autumn/fall and it's been really good. I'm hesitant to reveal too much on a public forum, but there is a particular thing that has caused some friction (I basically wanted her to give an activity she enjoys up, because I don't like it and also think she spends too much time on it to be a good mother). This all came to a head yesterday and ended in one of the most upsetting verbal exchanges I've ever been involved with. In total, we were only together about a year but for whatever reason this one really stings. To the point of tears.

Ultimately, it's probably the best outcome for both parties, but I'm completely depressed and despondent and there's no way we can reconcile as things were said that can't be taken back. I'm not so much upset about the break up (I probably am, but am in denial) but than with every passing 6 months the dating game gets harder as both age and societal factors make it fucking rough for men in western countries. The idea of going out daygaming or heaven forbid going on dating apps/sites is soul-destroying for me as I've had it great for a while, with an eye on permanence and a fond farewell to the SMP.

[fmman]

Whatever this 'thing' was, couldn't you have got her to cut it down? I'm assuming she must be a good person/mother in other ways, as if she was beyond help you would have bailed out way before and never rekindled it.
Why would you stop someone doing a hobby or thing they like doing.? Most women don't have a thing, which makes them cling to you too much and you never have time for your blokes stuff.

You'll be ok I think you can game at any age, how old are you?

[Teedub]

I'm early 30s. No, her hobby is practically her second job, and it involved her being intimate with the opposite sex. A sensual form of salsa dancing (bachata), to put it plainly. I was lenient because I used to act, which involves even more 'pretend' intimacy with women because you sometimes have to kiss etc.

[fmman]

I can see how that could cause probs. Either you can handle it or you can't. I think I would, but its easy to say that from here

[TigerMandingo]

Teedub, sorry to hear about your situation man. I divorced a woman about 5 years ago that I now realize was "the one". My situation was a bit different than yours, but I'm the same age as you and can relate to how it's going to be harder for guys like us to continue gaming and looking for needles in a haystack.

If the exotic dancing was the breaking point but everything else was good, I would suggest you try to work it out, bro. If there is still a chance, that is. Seriously, don't be so rash to give up on a good woman.

[fmman]

Yes and it could be worse, you could be in your 40s like me!

[Rocha]

Bachata in itself is not that bad, it seems more intimate than what it is in reality, people normally go there to dance not to grind.

The not so good part is that many girls in salsa are what I call salsluts, and there was a high chance she would cheat on you along the way with a dance partner.

You did good to finish, and you will stay good, there is more fish in the pond.

[Teedub]

(02-16-2019 10:18 AM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  

Teedub, sorry to hear about your situation man. I divorced a woman about 5 years ago that I now realize was "the one". My situation was a bit different than yours, but I'm the same age as you and can relate to how it's going to be harder for guys like us to continue gaming and looking for needles in a haystack.

If the exotic dancing was the breaking point but everything else was good, I would suggest you try to work it out, bro. If there is still a chance, that is. Seriously, don't be so rash to give up on a good woman.

Thanks brother for the kind words. I wouldn't call it erotic dancing as such, just proper salsa, but yeah, not ideal. I think reconciliation is not possible for several reasons, but I appreciate the advice. Tinder, Bumble etc... well, I hope Islamists 'take care' of their offices!

[GreenHills]

Wait you’re early thirties and you’re complaining about how your age is a problem. You kidding? Early thirties you’re at the top.

[TigerMandingo]

(02-16-2019 11:34 AM)GreenHills Wrote:  

Wait you’re early thirties and you’re complaining about how your age is a problem. You kidding? Early thirties you’re at the top.

Myth. This is that male version of the "30 is the new 20" crap they peddle to women. The truth is you don't have that much time to find a quality woman and these years will fly by while you're out "daygaming" and hitting up clubs. Not to mention that it's far more preferable to have kids at this age (early 30s) than later.

[Savonarola]

Women are like buses. Another will come along in 5 minutes.
Some buses are better than others, of course.
I was divorced at 38 from a young hottie (when we met, she was 24, I was 30) and since then have had my choice of many excellent women, some young, some not-so-young. I generally just try to see the good in all women now and don't expect too much of them. It's easier that way.
If you're angling for marriage, then just know it's going to be hard to do under any circumstances, period, given our modern sexual market.
But to each his own.

[Geomann180]

Sorry to hear about this brother. Time heals all wounds, thought it certainly takes its time.

I'm sure you made the best decision you could have with the information available. It's tough being able to make a decision you don't like but in the end it wards off even worse consequences (and greater heart break). Stay strong and drop a line if you need to vent.

G

[Korrupt]

Hey Teedub, sorry to hear about your situation and how you're feeling right now. I would say that rather than being heartbroken about this, your ego is probably hurt and that's what is affecting your emotional state.

Your ego is thinking that she chose dancing/dancing with other guys over you. In reality, that's not what it is. I think as humans when somebody positions us with an ultimatum there's always a push-back to that person. I don't know how the discussion came about or how you positioned it, but I'm guessing you could have achieved your desired result with a better approach to it.

In a situation like this, I tend to go for a set-up around "trust", "respect", and "intention" (I actually have generally the same speech at the outset of all relationships). The intention in this scenario, doesn't revolve around your partner but also who they may be meeting/dancing with. Even if there is no intention from the partners end but the "friend" they're meeting for drinks or the people they're dancing with may have an interest in her then it's disrespectful to me. I show that respect and expect the same in return. (It's a little more long winded than this but the general concept is there - the approach is a slow burner but has always got the desired results). Obviously, a little late advice for you but maybe to try should the situation ever occur in the future.

You'll be fine Teedub - the wound is still fresh and might last a few weeks but in the cold light of day you will rationalise this appropriately. She didn't pick anyone/anything over you - she picked the other side of the argument... and there's a difference

[No More Mr. Soy Boy]

My thoughts?
You will definitely get more chances to find a quality girl to raise a beautiful family if you keep your shit together, even if I think there's some truth to what TigerMandingo said.

I can't say I would have been happy too if my woman was dancing with other men all the time, even though I appreciate bachata. There is this TV show "Dancing with the Stars" in my country too and it's been famous for all the cheating that has been going on during the show and it has lead to breakups and so on. So I mean, it's not like you had a bizarre concern.

Wouldn't a woman of real quality (who just loved to dance) have understood that her man might still question it and she would have tried her best to let him know there would never be anyone else but him?
But instead, it seems like she reacted aggressively and immature. And in the end, she chose bachata over you and that's not the kind of woman you want. You want a woman who has such a strong desire for you that she would be willing to leave everything behind just to be a part of your life.

At the same time, there are most probably things you could have done better. You should have figured out sooner that you were not going to be compatible with someone who spends her days dancing with other men. And maybe you could have sat down with her and talked this through in a more mature and calm way. Maybe you even acted too insecure about it and she sensed this?
Either it's not good burning bridges with a heated verbal exchange.

A breakup is hard the first few weeks but you'll get over her. Focus on yourself now and make sure you've learned everything you can from this until you get back into the game again.

[ksbms]

I used to frequent latin dance circuit and for the forum members, who haven't, you many not realise, how it may feel, knowing your girlfriend, every Thursday and Saturday, is in close-contact, from arms to breasts to her groins to her back to her butt to her pelvis with an assortment of men. Some of the men frequenting these circuits, even though may not be players in the slightest, will be guys who have looks, style, money and lift. They are not there, believe me, to play chess. These men are, yes, you guessed it, to find some pleasure in there, in those women, perhaps something serious. You can wonder if a woman can and will, through all these dances, tipsy nights, week in, week out, feeling aroused and having fun, resist each and every man. And trust me, from time to time, a formidable competition will arrive on the scene, be it a local well to do guy, or an oversees traveller.

So you need to cope, putting you head down to pillow, each time when she's out there, spinned around, touched up and down, embraced closely, seriously desired, sexually wanted, flirted with and wooed, so each time you try to come to terms with that and act unaffected. Your pretty, wanton, sexy dressed, girl putting herself out there in search for elevated emotional arousal. Not a simple thing. Especially, if a girl is religious about that thing. If it took Teedub 10 dates to get her to bed (unlikely in light of the evidence - salsa/bachata girls are very open and social), one could imagine her being conservative. However, such is the nature of humans we can't even trust ourselves and mistakes happen.

And for the worse, if the environment is prime for that. The environment is an enabler often and us, as MALES we aren't, evolutionarily hard-wired to tolerate our female's never-ending line of suitors pitching sex and more to her. It's just not a normal set up. There's given too much slack to women. Men here, on the forum, moan women are intolerable, but they never confront situations that in, say Islamic country would not be even a remote possibility - a girlfriend/wife amorously in many men arms, late at night, after a drink or two unsupervised? This just does not reconcile with our biology. I hear here a few too tolerant voices. Trust me, once your hard-wired instincts kick-in, you won't be happy seeing your girl seduced by a dozen a man, twice a week, at night.

So what, in this case, our forum member should do? Surely, this bachata thing must have ground on him for a bit too long to compromise on it forever. A bone of contention that could not be reconciled with and it is up to him to live up to his decision. But it must have been clear from the outset, what kind of girl it was (not saying it was a bad girl - just a very pro-social and flirtatious and out-going girl) and what problem it would might have caused. One must realise, that a serious relationship, a relationship leading to a marriage and kids is more like a business. There's too much of a romantic provenance of how people think about relationships and once the reality hits the ground, things grind down to a halt. Marriage is a business. If both people can't relatively easily, pre-marriage co-operate, compromise and reconcile, it will only get worse after marriage. Sometimes seriously so, as I'm sure you can attest to it looking around your family members and close friends. If no compromise could have been reached within a reasonable time frame, don't aggravate it and worsen it by making it a bottomless sunk cost fallacy - in some men's cases, through their entire lives, literally, to the grave. Only realising way too late they've been their own hostages of wishful and magical thinking, hindsight bias or, surprisingly often, a denial of reality around them.

The real good news, Teedub, is that there are many more women out there. Don't bullshit us and yourself, that being 30 it's all doom and gloom. You've had some experiences, you'll have some more. We've all been there (certainly, I was), that she was the "one". Our minds do play tricks on us but psychologists shows us that losses are perceived twice as hurtful as gains are. Take action, don't dwell and self-commiserate, this won't help to sooth the pain. Acknowledge the situation and be mindful - a man's mission in life is not any particular woman but a virtuous, eudaimonic way of living one's life with a set of core principles of being fair to oneself but also to others. So I've just mentioned there are other women out there. You have the tools, you know how the game is played. You'll be a hunter once more, you'll make those girls fall for you and want you. A marriage (a conventional, post-industrial, left-wing liberal interpretation of it) is not something that is an ultimate and only goal of a man's live. This is not to deny having a partner and kids are valuable achievements, but there's more to life than this. I'll finish off with a noteworthy quote of a wise man, who can say it so much better than I could have ever said:

“Happiness and freedom begin with a clear understanding of one principle: Some things are within our control and some things are not. It is only after you have faced up to this fundamental rule and learned to distinguish between what you can and can’t control that inner tranquility and outer effectiveness become possible.”

I must admit, Epictetus' principle seems to me like a damn good rule of thumb for having a better life. Hopefully, it will make your struggle all the easier in the foreseeable future.

[Durito]

My observations:

1. I think you still haven't swallowed the pill by the way you describe her.

2. I agree on your comment about carrying conversation with 20 somethings. It is something I humor during the chase but I dread once she thinks we are in a relationship.

3. The back and forth of this relationship tells me you are more invested than you realize, and she's not.

4. You asking her to give up her hobby speaks insecurity from miles away.

5. Then to top it off, it seems that you lost your frame during that heated exchange.

6. Also you seem afraid of putting the work to move on with comments such as "dating gets harder etc"

Summary: We have all made the same mistakes you described. Also it appears that the hobby in question was some dirty dancing. I don't blame you for objecting but object to the approach. I have bedded many women using those specific dance moves described here. Women just love it if you know what you are doing and are powerless when they find a match on the floor. Case example: I met my last partner by those means. She was head over heels (literally lol) in a few days and wanted to marry me etc. We stopped going out dancing but inevitably the topic came up at some point. That's when she said "I think it will be ok to dance with others that are you know, at a professional level etc". My response? "That is fine by me, I can dance with women on the opposite side where you'll be dancing". She did not like that a bit and said "Never mind, I pictured you dancing and touching other women and realized I would not like that". Nonetheless the damage was done (for her). At that point she reconfirmed my position for decided from the beginning to not invest in the relationship we had at the time, not because she had done anything wrong, but because I knew better. After this civil discussion I went ahead and spinned plates behind her back for the remainder of our relationship, including women I had met on the dance floor.

[questor70]

(02-16-2019 12:47 PM)Durito Wrote:  

You asking her to give up her hobby speaks insecurity from miles away.

Disagree.

It's his prerogative to define what constitutes an ideal partnership. If grinding with other men is problematic to him, he has every right to ask her to stop doing it. Likewise, if the hobby is so vital to her, then obviously it's an incompatibility. Not that either person is right or wrong or either person screwed up, merely that it exposes an irreconcilable difference.

Some compromise is necessary in a relationship but everyone has a short-list of non-negotiables. And it's not for anyone else to judge what those are.

(02-16-2019 12:47 PM)Durito Wrote:  

...you lost your frame during that heated exchange.

I feel the reverse. He held frame, hence the breakup. You don't hold frame by buckling. No relationship is worth saving if you have to be a doormat. Those types of situations never end well.

...

Where the insecurity comes in is his dire assessment of his future prospects. Everyone does a cost-benefit assessment when they are contemplating breaking up. A man without abundance mentality is going to be more inclined to keep something going even when it's clearly not firing on all cylinders. So I really feel that being ruthless and ending things is the more courageous thing to do and the right thing to do in nearly all cases. Some of the most miserable men are the ones who made that faustian bargain that allows them to keep get laid on the regular with their SO but there is this seething animosity or mistrust or just plain apathy going on. They want the sex, but they don't really want the totality of the other person.

[GreenHills]

(02-16-2019 11:44 AM)TigerMandingo Wrote:  

(02-16-2019 11:34 AM)GreenHills Wrote:  

Wait you’re early thirties and you’re complaining about how your age is a problem. You kidding? Early thirties you’re at the top.

Myth. This is that male version of the "30 is the new 20" crap they peddle to women. The truth is you don't have that much time to find a quality woman and these years will fly by while you're out "daygaming" and hitting up clubs. Not to mention that it's far more preferable to have kids at this age (early 30s) than later.

Yes, if your criteria for a "quality woman" comes from the Internet's "ten requirements for a traditional wife" manual, it's also possible that you'll be forever alone - wouldn't you agree? However, if you're willing to work with some imperfections, you can definitely find something good at say the age of 33.

[arafat scarf]

Hey Teedub,

Sounds like a tough breakup and I hope you find strength and consolation in the days and possibly months to come. I can sense the feeling of loss and sadness in your post.

If it's of any help, you're not alone... I'm in a similar situation, mid 30's and going through a tough breakup that happened a month and a half ago. Things ended with a mostly "good" girl and I've been limping along ever since. In the immediate aftermath, I was mostly numb, but then in the first week after I was having sharp pangs of anxiety and sadness. The second week, less pain, but still notable, and now about a month and a half later, it's continued along that trajectory -- dull pain while sometimes acute at night and in the early morning.

I feel like I've said something to this effect in another post, but heartbreak is rough and since you truly adored this girl, you're gonna grieve for awhile.

And while going out and banging other girls might be palliative, it's certainly not curative. Time will heal

I can imagine the background competition with salsa/bachata dudes being an ongoing source of friction. Truth is, if a girl is anything above average, she's getting hit up by all kinds of guys: guys who want to wine and dine her, guys who want to take her on trips, guys who will orbit her as "friends" waiting for their window of opportunity, cool players they meet at a house party who they have sporadic contact with, guys willing to "mentor" her professionally, etc. You name it. The salsa/bachata strikes me as worse because it's an enabling environment with heavy physical contact, but there's almost always something...

And when you rightly react with suspicion against any of this you appear butthurt and controlling.

Still also trying to figure all this out... but I'd caution against illusions you have about "permanence and a fond farewell to the SMP".

Last I checked, all of these girls still have smart phones — which gives them limitless exposure on social media along with instant communication with current and prior suitors — so they never really leave the game.

To echo the consensus wisdom of the forum, most sensible way is to control what we can by living healthy, keeping a fit body, keeping your options open (if in a relationship, having the opportunity to cheat) and accepting that in any romantic relationship, there will always be a large degree of impermanence and fragility in spite of any manifestation or declaration of love and fondness. Admittedly, it can be a challenge to keep this attitude while avoiding cynicism and bitterness, but facing harsh realities while remaining strong and keeping good spirit strikes me as positively masculine.

[edlefou]

(02-16-2019 01:41 PM)questor70 Wrote:  

If grinding with other men is problematic to him, he has every right to ask her to stop doing it.

Is there a universe in which one's wife (or wife-to-be) is regularly grinding on other men and it's NOT categorically problematic?

[BlastbeatCasanova]

Great response from Ksbms. I personally don't think I could stomach my girl dancing intimately with other men all the time. I think you made the right call and once time passes and the immediate pain dissipates I think you'll feel a lot better

[RatInTheWoods]

TeeDub I agree with you 100%, you made the right call here.

You can't have an LTR with a woman who plays intimately with men all the time, fuck that shit.

She made her choice and ended the relationship, so its not down to you.

Time now to be strong, realise you made the right call and go through the grieving process and move on.

I am in the same boat at the moment, ending a very deep LTR (for different reasons) and know all too well how you second guess yourself and rethink if you can put up with that shit.

Somewhere in the back of you mind you know time will make this better, and that you will find a better women down the track. Focus on that when you are feeling down.

Good luck mate

[Atlanta Man]

TeeDub I know you are feeling down, rethinking your choices, and likely contemplating what your ex is doing or maybe even rekindling the relationship.

This is a public forum, so I will keep this short-PM me , If you need to talk PM me and I will call you and be a sympathetic ear. There is a member of this forum went above and beyond for me during a very bad time in my life and I tell him thank you to this day- he knows who he is. If you are genuinely in need of someone to have talk with , I will gladly pay it back to the forum.

Lastly, not being a dick-but objectively, at 31, you have time. You are in your prime-You can approach 18- 22 year old women with no problems. Focus on yourself relentlessly, go no contact with the ex,be selfish(aggressively put yourself first), have sex with ten women, 2 hours of gym 4-5 times a week, talk to 5 girls a day, and give yourself one year- Do not worry about kids and marriage, worry about how you are going to choose to marry and have kids with when you have so many options 3 year from now. Men in their 30's do not have issues finding women in their 20's to marry-Guys in their 40's have that issue.

[NoMoreTO]

(02-16-2019 07:50 AM)Teedub Wrote:  

I'm not so much upset about the break up (I probably am, but am in denial) but than with every passing 6 months the dating game gets harder as both age and societal factors make it fucking rough for men in western countries. The idea of going out daygaming or heaven forbid going on dating apps/sites is soul-destroying for me as I've had it great for a while, with an eye on permanence and a fond farewell to the SMP.

I can relate to this. Given your situation you had a good relationship with one problem that was a deal breaker.

It's rough trying to go back and find an equivalent quality girl. The dating market is on the slide, so much tinder BS and flaky chicks. You end up listening to some chick blab because shes' hot or hanging with a less hot chick who you like as a person.

It takes some time to find a similar quality girl than your last, who also doesn't have a deal breaker. Still you could end up with a way better chick. Also, if you two said a lot of shit you can't take back, that probably means it wasn't just about the bachata.

I have to say, its' hard to imagine that she wouldn't give up or seriously reduce her bachata dancing if she was a mother. If that was your objection, you might have been borrowing trouble. If it's because of the hands on her and potential cheating with dancing partners, that I could get.

Hit the gym, get on some activities you like, re invest in yourself. I bought a car after one breakup, another time I bought a condo. Take care of business. Good luck

[Mess O.]

Backing up RatInTheWoods, yeah, surely, having a girl who's "hobby" is all about dancing with other dudes is ridiculous. You'd essentially be sharing her with an endless wealth of "pseudo-suitors". Hell, even if it was, like, a job as an instructor or something, it'd still be a stretch . . . but solely as some activity to be pursued with passion? Asinine.