[Kid Twist]

Forgive me, but of all the complaints of "stop posting and take action" on other threads that are somewhat interesting --- a lot of which annoy me --- it should be for this thread. The issue isn't "mentoring." This kind of thread pops up only in an already (rapidly) declining society in which, by definition, men have already given up or lost their agency.

In the golden age of America, being a man and being a woman, and their respective characteristics, were known and more importantly, acted out for all to see. It wasn't a mystery. It was what everyone did. No complaining, no question, not too much time on your hands mental breakdowns or autism.

In rapidly declining societies, family is broken, women are sexually irresponsible (broken families), single parent families are common (same idea), media and institutions still support female sexual irresponsibility, and thus males can't just wake up and look at their dads, their neighbors, their leaders, etc. and know the truth, which is living the truth.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but until women are dependent on men in some way or another, none of this changes. Whether this is due to economic collapse, renewal of traditional religious practice, shaming, or all of the above, you won't have any solution to the core problem.

This is precisely why mentoring is a co-opted term, making the best in a bad situation. I hear such words thrown around all the time --- for kids without fathers or for women to be led by men. It's just another bs buzzword, intrinsically worthless, actually testifying to the real, underlying societal problem.

Think about it.

[The Father]

(12-01-2018 11:41 AM)Kid Twist Wrote:  

In rapidly declining societies, family is broken, women are sexually irresponsible (broken families), single parent families are common (same idea), media and institutions still support female sexual irresponsibility, and thus males can't just wake up and look at their dads, their neighbors, their leaders, etc. and know the truth, which is living the truth.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but until women are dependent on men in some way or another, none of this changes. Whether this is due to economic collapse, renewal of traditional religious practice, shaming, or all of the above, you won't have any solution to the core problem.

This is precisely why mentoring is a co-opted term, making the best in a bad situation. I hear such words thrown around all the time --- for kids without fathers or for women to be led by men. It's just another bs buzzword, intrinsically worthless, actually testifying to the real, underlying societal problem.

[Aurini]

(11-30-2018 08:39 PM)armenia4ever Wrote:  

Think of just how far we have to go to impart the notion of wise judgement back into boys, teenagers, and young men - as in when to admit failure to the right people and be able to learn from it.

You literally have to strip all their old presuppositions out that have fueled by daily stories of social media shame based on those who have mistakenly apologize and had thus concluded that no weakness can ever be admitted. (Our culture has basically made the sin of pride virtually insurmountable for oneself to overcome.)

Arguably, this has never been the case across the generations until recently. That's how much work has to be done. That key element that our society lacks - trust - will have to be built slowly over time by a mentor.

This is why Mentoring is such a BIG deal. It's arguably been abandoned in the last two generations. Look back in history at all the great men and you'll notice they all had mentors of some type - the ultimate example of iron sharpening iron.

For some reason our hedonistic culture only bothers with mentors when you've literally drank yourself into ruin and legal troubles in the form of AAA. We all need accountability, inspiration, education, wisdom, and someone willing to tell us exactly how it is - especially in our formative years.

This is what the boy scouts used to do. It's what mens groups, lodges, etc did on a weekly basis. The sooner we get back to this the sooner we can start rebuilding the foundations.

Somewhat of a tangent - you just pointed out something which fits some of the social dysfunction I've been seeing.

Pride - the demand for acknowledgement and power which turns all men, all reality, God Himself, into your enemy - is growing. On the one hand, you can never apologize to SJWs; they'll eat you alive if you do. But this is training us in very bad habits, it's promoting a God complex in the Alt Right. Because our enemies are so thoroughly wrong, we are in the right. But this quickly becomes "We possess the right, the truth."

Fr. Ripperger has commented that Pride, and pagan godhood-seeking are the sins of this present generation.

[N°6]

^the Roman exorcist is called Chad

[MrLemon]

(12-01-2018 12:59 PM)Aurini Wrote:  

(11-30-2018 08:39 PM)armenia4ever Wrote:  

Think of just how far we have to go to impart the notion of wise judgement back into boys, teenagers, and young men - as in when to admit failure to the right people and be able to learn from it.

You literally have to strip all their old presuppositions out that have fueled by daily stories of social media shame based on those who have mistakenly apologize and had thus concluded that no weakness can ever be admitted. (Our culture has basically made the sin of pride virtually insurmountable for oneself to overcome.)

Arguably, this has never been the case across the generations until recently. That's how much work has to be done. That key element that our society lacks - trust - will have to be built slowly over time by a mentor.

This is why Mentoring is such a BIG deal. It's arguably been abandoned in the last two generations. Look back in history at all the great men and you'll notice they all had mentors of some type - the ultimate example of iron sharpening iron.

For some reason our hedonistic culture only bothers with mentors when you've literally drank yourself into ruin and legal troubles in the form of AAA. We all need accountability, inspiration, education, wisdom, and someone willing to tell us exactly how it is - especially in our formative years.

This is what the boy scouts used to do. It's what mens groups, lodges, etc did on a weekly basis. The sooner we get back to this the sooner we can start rebuilding the foundations.

Somewhat of a tangent - you just pointed out something which fits some of the social dysfunction I've been seeing.

Pride - the demand for acknowledgement and power which turns all men, all reality, God Himself, into your enemy - is growing. On the one hand, you can never apologize to SJWs; they'll eat you alive if you do. But this is training us in very bad habits, it's promoting a God complex in the Alt Right. Because our enemies are so thoroughly wrong, we are in the right. But this quickly becomes "We possess the right, the truth."

Fr. Ripperger has commented that Pride, and pagan godhood-seeking are the sins of this present generation.

When Pride grows like this, it leads inexorably to one conclusion: War.

[Syberpunk]

This is side tangent....but I was out with mid 20's people last week and ( I suffering with an actual REAL physical illness) started to hear why they did this and that because they had anxiety, OCD you name it.

One of the girls who works with special ed kids was talking about them and the guy next to her who has OCD (compulsion to tap objects in particular), said everybody is on the spectrum in some way. (Is it easier to belive this so they don;t have to handle the fact that their are other people out there, with none of the their quirks at all?)

Anyway after hearing this go on for a minute or so, her talking about the kids and themselves I chirp up "It's very easy to misdiagnose autism or aspergers or OCD if everybody is on the spectrum"

Dead silence.

Telling. It's all just a way of not doing things, I see this girl minding kids and others kids (her friends kids) and she's developing these psychosis when she should be having kids of her own and stop getting involved in others lives, a load of fussing.

I see the guy speaking to her, a childhood friend who developed a touch of schizophrenia because he never processed the death of his father when young (at about 4), who while smart is just too smart too go to the job but will decide to go on walks as opposed to weightlifting because "its just not my scene". He's 26 and overweight, an accountant, and think his charisma will carry the day but it won't...in the end. He could have it all and thinks that his body will be any different to anyone elses. He would never admit to it, but that is how he subconsciously thinks You see the problem is not his intelligence but the mind guiding that intelligence. It's all bluff. In love with the idea that people are always thinking about him, giving out advice to me during my own illness on don't worry what people think, when he was the biggest scaredy cat of all, always worried how he was perceived. Obvious things that I learned early on.

What ties these broken souls together......they are too tied to their identity, it is the sole reason for the inability to take advice or even consider outside yourself. for whatever reason they didn't suffer enough or watch closely early on, I had ego death incredibly early in life, in fact I'm not sure I ever really had one at all. Truth of the matter is I don't know what I am and never knew, I am a mystery to myself and was always looking out, overhearing a stray comments in adult conversation that sound real or as we would call it red pilled, that struck me, everything passed through a filter and I took on board as useful, even only as a warning. YOU don't have to go through a bunch of crap, to know its a bunch of crap.

Everybody has a lesson to teach even if it is only to serve as a warning.

Never fall in love with yourself, only fall in love with what you can become and are becoming.

These fuckers have set on easy mode from the go, The awful thing is these two will finally take advice at some point and act like its some major revelation, and that they "have been through something", like its some great achievement, long due after they could have done it, enacted on it, they don't seek out, they only consume and that is all the difference.

When they won't do the hard but soon enjoyable work, "because its not their scene, not who they are".
I want to scream at them " LOOK, Frankly at this moment in time, You don't know what you are".

They're already in denial and too into themselves to see a void, yet a a good void which can be built into, is dispiriting.

The problem with the self esteem movement is that kids are constructing images of themselves in their heads without the necessary pushback and tempering to realize they are flesh and blood and a work in progress, with much to learn outside themselves. And the the psychosis people are developing in their adulthood are a delayed reaction to that.

I leave you with a quote from Delta:

Quote:

I've never had any life threatening illness, but I still find most people unrelatable due to their apathy toward improving their own situation, their taking for granted of the incredible gifts they've been given, their pretty delusions that should've been beaten out of them by any sort of major life struggle, and their ridiculous faux crises that have no tangible impact on their lives.

I can't imagine what it's like for someone who suffered through cancer to read about the "horrors" of thin privilege, weird guys trying to strike up a conversation, and being microaggressed.

The real stuff, the hard stuff, the stuff that matters not drowning yourself in Netlfix and shit pop music, acting like it doesn't effect you, too smart for your own good you say? My friend's counsellor said he acts the way he does because he is intelligent, Would a smart person act in the illogical way my friend is acting? Doesn't sound like he is acting intelligently at all, but for him to realize this would leave with nothing at all....a trait built on salt and bullshit. The intelligent actions are just not that there, therefore he is not clever as he thinks he is.

An NPC, I'm afraid.

I don't know I'd be be able to survive at the moment if it weren't for the fact I froze my legs, ass and finger in flooded dug-outs as a kid playing Gaelic Football in December, being picked last for the team because of lanky I was but still becoming an incredible goalie for my school team I may not have been the best player at where I wanted to be out the, but I learned that I had another skill in another area of the field and I became far more happier and useful there, and ultimately fell in love with my position. We had a GREAT alpha coach who was also my neighbour and his own kids who WERE great naturally talented players that he would pick all the time, looking back people say "cartel, cartel they never have gave us a chance", and my reply always is "I understand, but I think that was a good lesson for future life, you can sometimes do all you can, break your back for someone and they may still not like, or even if they like you they may still not give you the position you wanr, and still get rejected because of circumstances or just not being good enough, myself included, that's more important, than being handed a position....because its my turn". I often hated it too at the time, but it was the best thing to have to happen to you as a young person.

That coach was the distillation of a harsh selective male hierarchy and I always think back to how real, how sincere and earned all those victories were not only for the team but personally. The sore fingers, the chemistry and laughs, the gloves that were falling apart from use, the grit, how real and wonderfully humbling it was training and working as a whole on those dusk summer evenings. I don't even like Gaelic football all that much in truth, but learning a craft internalising those experiences of competition and being stoic changed me or at least cemented what I always known that this is reality and I am flesh and bone, but can be much more to myself.

Even small thing are so memorable and stirring and live with you forever, I had a local guy who was about 20 at the time, stand by me at the goal posts as a linesman at games always encouraging me when the crowd was jeering or not, it actually brings a tear to my eye, he was so decent. The experiences I had were so rich and full of depth. I was fortunate to know how good people could be when you really needed that encouragement.

But I needed to see the low, to feel the gratitude of the high. I needed to have nothing, have a ball fly by me and then to get it back, save it, whatever, to realise we could gain it back, to see our team score to make up for the mistakes they and I made, to see that I could wash away my mistakes through great kickouts. And MOST IMPORTANTLY to realise that I could lose and win and go through the cycles infinite amount of time and become desentitized to the end, to realise it didn't matter what we did, only that that we kept doing it. We could lose everything and gain it all back, and actually enjoy the work and visceral thrill of the comeback more than if we sailed to victory.

Now the same thing happened to my friend (who I spoke of earlier) in the school, but he got the message all wrong or gave up before he had these experiences...and that is a pity.

It was the making of my fortitude for my current trials and some of the happiest most satisfying days I will have ever known.

[Paracelsus]

(12-01-2018 06:24 PM)Syberpunk Wrote:  

This is side tangent....but I was out with mid 20's people last week and ( I suffering with an actual REAL physical illness) started to hear why they did this and that because they had anxiety, OCD you name it.

One of the girls who works with special ed kids was talking about them and the guy next to her who has OCD (compulsion to tap objects in particular), said everybody is on the spectrum in some way. (Is it easier to belive this so they don;t have to handle the fact that their are other people out there, with none of the their quirks at all?)

Anyway after hearing this go on for a minute or so, her talking about the kids and themselves I chirp up "It's very easy to misdiagnose autism or aspergers or OCD if everybody is on the spectrum"

Dead silence.

Easier way to make the point to NPCs, and for bonus points, to make them angrier: If you're a hammer, everything around you looks like a nail.

This is provocation to the narcissist because it heavily implies that they are not the centre of the universe, but just another spectator to the great game and with no particularly significant insight on it that justifies them asserting that everyone's on the spectrum.

Some people have noted indirectly here that I see a lot of life through the lens of narcissism, and pull me up on it. Guilty as charged. It's the best secular explanation I've found for the horrors around us - the spiritual explanation is another matter - so I tend to apply it to those I see.

But it's also the same of dedicated PUA; after enough time, all the women are sluts because you're tuned to and your social interactions are designed to bang sluts. Virtuous Women™ don't bang you because your systems are not designed to penetrate their defences; they're designed to appeal to the average Western woman who wasn't taught much in the way of morals to even rebel against.

Either way, the point's the same: other people have perspectives as real as our own. The issue comes down to which of those perspectives provide lasting civilisation. The only truth one can find was given two thousand years ago and has been under constant assault for the last three hundred.

[Bluey]

(11-30-2018 02:13 AM)StrikeBack Wrote:  

The way the OP worded this makes no sense. It is the responsibility of young men to seek out older male mentors, not the other way around. That has always been the case throughout history, in fact the reluctant older mentor is even a novel/movie trope. If most young men these days do not have older male mentors, that is their bloody fault.

I had a few older male mentors, and I actively seeked them out, asked for their help, made myself as coachable as possible so they could teach me. I didn't sit on my arse waiting for older more experienced men to find me and teach me. I am the one who needs help and reaps the benefits, they are not my servants, therefore I should be the one doing the leg work. No man wants to mentor a young guy with entitlement attitude.

Prove me wrong: the young guys here, how many older male mentor figures have you approached and asked for help, and got turned down?

Older successful men can be surprisingly generous with their time and help, so young guys, seek them out.

This is something I've been trying to get through to my youngest brother. No one is going to hand you jack shit. The only one who's going to make anything happen is you, so get out there and do it.
That doesn't preclude finding a mentor, but you've got to put yourself out there instead of waiting for them to find you. Finding a mentor isn't about not making mistakes, it makes correcting those mistakes and taking a more effective learning path much easier.

Some fantastic comments in here, younger guys pay attention!

[infowarrior1]

(12-01-2018 12:59 PM)Aurini Wrote:  

(11-30-2018 08:39 PM)armenia4ever Wrote:  

Think of just how far we have to go to impart the notion of wise judgement back into boys, teenagers, and young men - as in when to admit failure to the right people and be able to learn from it.

You literally have to strip all their old presuppositions out that have fueled by daily stories of social media shame based on those who have mistakenly apologize and had thus concluded that no weakness can ever be admitted. (Our culture has basically made the sin of pride virtually insurmountable for oneself to overcome.)

Arguably, this has never been the case across the generations until recently. That's how much work has to be done. That key element that our society lacks - trust - will have to be built slowly over time by a mentor.

This is why Mentoring is such a BIG deal. It's arguably been abandoned in the last two generations. Look back in history at all the great men and you'll notice they all had mentors of some type - the ultimate example of iron sharpening iron.

For some reason our hedonistic culture only bothers with mentors when you've literally drank yourself into ruin and legal troubles in the form of AAA. We all need accountability, inspiration, education, wisdom, and someone willing to tell us exactly how it is - especially in our formative years.

This is what the boy scouts used to do. It's what mens groups, lodges, etc did on a weekly basis. The sooner we get back to this the sooner we can start rebuilding the foundations.

Somewhat of a tangent - you just pointed out something which fits some of the social dysfunction I've been seeing.

Pride - the demand for acknowledgement and power which turns all men, all reality, God Himself, into your enemy - is growing. On the one hand, you can never apologize to SJWs; they'll eat you alive if you do. But this is training us in very bad habits, it's promoting a God complex in the Alt Right. Because our enemies are so thoroughly wrong, we are in the right. But this quickly becomes "We possess the right, the truth."

Fr. Ripperger has commented that Pride, and pagan godhood-seeking are the sins of this present generation.

The spiritual enemy wants us to choose either of the evil extremes. But never the Golden Mean.

The way the evil is designed is to shape us into the enemies that they claim to oppose.

[MrLemon]

(12-02-2018 02:49 AM)Bluey Wrote:  

This is something I've been trying to get through to my youngest brother. No one is going to hand you jack shit.

Let's put it even more brutally:

"Everybody is trying to kill you and eat you. This is a jungle. If you want money, you have to work in a shitty job to get it, and they will still try to rip you off. If you buy a house, they will try to rip you off. If you buy a car, they will try to rip you off. Everybody else is starving and angry and they view you as prey. If you let them prey on you, don't complain, cause nobody will have any sympathy, because they're all trying to survive too"

[tomzestatlu]

Where did some of you found persons that you can call mentor?

As I mentioned I have nobody around. Family, friends, whole environment are loosers. Maybe it´s no good to say this about my close people, but that´s how it is. And I am coming into game just myself alone, nobody to cover my ass.
Maybe there are 2-3 persons of the same age, who I appreciate and respect them and they are my ex class mates from military university. I changed my life course and dived into civilian world. And it is different and I am quite lost. There are moments, when I can recognize myself as doing good, I have achievments and did a lot of things others wouldn´t dare, but... I realized I am comparing myself to average or even under-average people.
I am 26, live alone, have quite new car, can spend some money, can bang some girls... and this alone is much more, than others around me got (or maybe they did, but with support of their parents). But I want much more. Biggest issue for me is probably finance. It wasn´t such big deal for me before, but now I am reaching 30 years and it´s all or nothing for me now. That´s how I see my life.
There are some areas, where I could offer my mentoring to others. As it´s said, every man should reach his physical peak once in life and I know I reached that. And it´s still my stronger part.

But I don´t have idea, how to meet or recognize someone, who´s right person. And I don´t have clue, what would be their motivation to help some stranger.

[Subtext]

Where the fuck do you find a mentor? How, where, when and whom? Honestly, what does a mentor DO? I grew up with a single mother, and even though I rejected my maternal relationship pretty heavily, the damage is done, through not having confidence in my maleness, having difficulty associating and bonding with men, and a general emotional processing problem.

[Investment Bro]

(12-03-2018 06:50 PM)Subtext Wrote:  

Where the fuck do you find a mentor? How, where, when and whom? Honestly, what does a mentor DO? I grew up with a single mother, and even though I rejected my maternal relationship pretty heavily, the damage is done, through not having confidence in my maleness, having difficulty associating and bonding with men, and a general emotional processing problem.

Depends on where you come from. I grew up the same way, so I understand the challenges associated with this upbringing can seem insurmountable, but have hope. It can be done.

The question is: what exactly are you looking for in a mentor? A business mentor? Lifestyle? Moral center?

You'd be best served by defining the areas where you feel that you are lacking and then designing your plan of attack based off of that. For me, my fatal flaw growing up with a single mother was my lack of assertiveness. I was passive, and I knew I needed to seek out a hard charging (but patient) motherfucker to help me get over the hump. Ideally someone that had to figure it out themselves too.

Luckily, I bumped into such a man while I was windsurfing. I ended up going to work for him, and now I consider him a lifelong friend and ally. I never asked him for direct advice (because words are never as telling as actions), but I paid attention to how he did things, when he spoke up, how he announced himself, how he talked to women, etc. Eventually, wouldn't you know it, I ended up growing into many of the same behaviors by osmosis.

The thing is, the types of guys you really want to mentor you are exceedingly rare. Whether it's the older baby boomers lacking any sense of a moral compass, or just the men who have been neutered by our anti-male reality, you'll have to look hard. Pay special attention to those who you almost instantly respect, because chances are, if you respect them, they have traits that you see in yourself and will be able to learn from.

[PharaohRa]

The thing with mentoring is that 1) there are not enough mentors, 2) alot of the older folks are just fucking greedy and detached and 3) many of these "Silverbacks" have the fuck you, got mine attitude.

This shit needs to stop.

[StrikeBack]

Where to find a mentor: by far the most common place I know is male-dominated sport clubs e.g lifting, boxing, MMA etc. You can also find them at entrepreneur meetups. If you work a trade job, you'll find some among the older more experienced tradies. In white collar professions, they are at the more technical conferences.

In order to find one, first you need to learn how to socialise with other men. I can see right away from the previous few posts that a lot of young guys, because of reasons like growing up with a single mother, do not know how to relate to men as men. With that attitude, you'll find it very hard to even know who the older male mentors can be. Join a sport club, learn a trade, do something with other men, earn that respect. Then the mentors will show up on your radar.

[N°6]

Interesting that this article said that older man - younger women mentorship is threatened by #metoo as men are going professional MGTOW.

Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/...t-all-cost

Media blaming Pence because he refuses to be alone with women. Last time I knew of a man who did this was my pastor 20 years ago. Young women made hypergamous passes at him so he always made sure his wife was present when with women.

[MrLemon]

(12-04-2018 01:15 AM)N°6 Wrote:  

Interesting that this article said that older man - younger women mentorship is threatened by #metoo as men are going professional MGTOW.

Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/...t-all-cost

Media blaming Pence because he refuses to be alone with women. Last time I knew of a man who did this was my pastor 20 years ago. Young women made hypergamous passes at him so he always made sure his wife was present when with women.

I have read this article several times now with the deepest satisfaction. Nothing better than seeing the arrogant scumbag shithead women of America get a metaphorical kick in the fucking teeth.

I think that the 22 year old recent college grad girls who read this article are going to think seriously about walking away from Feminism and becoming housewives. They're already trending that way, and women fold quickly when their shit tests are checked by angry men. And they know very well...there is no winning here. Feminism as always leads women into battle they cannot win. Feminist love to lose, to be martyred, but healthy women despise it. Thats why feminism never lasts.

[StrikeBack]

(12-01-2018 11:41 AM)Kid Twist Wrote:  

Forgive me, but of all the complaints of "stop posting and take action" on other threads that are somewhat interesting --- a lot of which annoy me --- it should be for this thread. The issue isn't "mentoring." This kind of thread pops up only in an already (rapidly) declining society in which, by definition, men have already given up or lost their agency.

In the golden age of America, being a man and being a woman, and their respective characteristics, were known and more importantly, acted out for all to see. It wasn't a mystery. It was what everyone did. No complaining, no question, not too much time on your hands mental breakdowns or autism.

In rapidly declining societies, family is broken, women are sexually irresponsible (broken families), single parent families are common (same idea), media and institutions still support female sexual irresponsibility, and thus males can't just wake up and look at their dads, their neighbors, their leaders, etc. and know the truth, which is living the truth.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but until women are dependent on men in some way or another, none of this changes. Whether this is due to economic collapse, renewal of traditional religious practice, shaming, or all of the above, you won't have any solution to the core problem.

This is precisely why mentoring is a co-opted term, making the best in a bad situation. I hear such words thrown around all the time --- for kids without fathers or for women to be led by men. It's just another bs buzzword, intrinsically worthless, actually testifying to the real, underlying societal problem.

Think about it.

All I know is that my ancestors survived worse problems than I have now, they got on with life, made the best out of it, and that's why I'm here. They didn't argue statistics among each other, and how shit life was, while taking no actions, that's for sure. If that solution was good enough for all of them, then it's good enough for me. I'm not trying to solve society's problems, I'm solving only what's relevant to my life, and guess what, it's not as doom and gloom as you think.

If you wait until everyone else has solved all of societal problems before you take any positive action, like seeking a mentor, you're gonna waste your life.

On this forum, ultimately we are not trying to solve all social problems, we are helping each other to have a better life in spite of them. If each of us overcomes issues in our own life and lives well, and our messages inspire other people to do the same, guess what, that's how we solve all the problems plaguing our society in the end.

Mentoring is not some co-opted term. It is always needed, whether society is healthy or ill.

[RWIsrael]

(12-03-2018 09:32 PM)PharaohRa Wrote:  

The thing with mentoring is that 1) there are not enough mentors, 2) alot of the older folks are just fucking greedy and detached and 3) many of these "Silverbacks" have the fuck you, got mine attitude.

This shit needs to stop.

I've found that in my industry (financial services), men are expected to learn and do everything themselves and be top performers on their own merit, while the "silverbacks" love mentoring the pretty female interns.

I mean you do pick up plenty of knowledge from bits you hear from the older guys and working together and seeing them operate, but asking "to be mentored" is a sign of weakness and incompetence, while females come to expect it and some particularly entitled cunts even complain that nobody is willing to mentor them.

[Bienvenuto]

Take the example of my mate Dave.

Growing up Dave was very shy and quiet and a bigFoot motherfucker.

He lived with a Mum and Dad and Three older sisters.

His Dad was a cunt. His Mum was the typical sweet natured 'good guy' parent in a fucked up relationship dynamic. I wouldn't trust that women with a barge pole but everybody remarked what a sweet woman she was. But that was it. "she's such a lovely sweet woman (in contrast to the big foot surly prick that she has had kids with)"

Care to expand?

No just go round, drop off Dave or pick up your kids from Dave's house and fixed, frozen grins all around. Dave's Mum with the fakest, frozen-est of all those grins.. Drive away.. "what a sweet woman' breathe out. Sigh of relief to leave that fakery behind. change the subject.

I never found out what Dave's Dad was getting up to in that house. he was my best friend but he never let on. All the teachers said "he's so shy that Dave kid, isn't he?" That's all they would say.
Everyone had enough of a suspicion that bad things were happening there, things that they didn't want to know any more about. Total opposite from today's world.

Growing up when I was 10 or so there was a kid called Darren S____ who was going round beating all us younger kids up. As the years went by he got bigger, became a man with big muscles still beating the shit out of everyone. I would pass his council estate on the way home and there at the entrance would be Darren bleeding from a head wound, cuffed by god knows how many police.
His absences in jail got longer, his brief re-appearances were in the form of a more and more jacked and angry man.

One night, long story, when we were 17, Dave got in a row with Darren's bitchy squeeze's younger brother. We were just teens going out drinking for the first time. Darren comes down the pub we ere in , drinking in public for the first time, with the 15 year old (that Dave had told to fuck off in a rare show of bravado, non-shyness, actual speech with strangers) and a whole entourage with him.

Darren placed his fist around Dave's collar and told him what he was going to do to him. This was no joke. I sat there in that beer garden with ice-in-my-veins and one by one all these so called friends of Dave (us) said that it was getting late, they were getting tired, lets go home.. and left piano playing, Dungeons and Dragons playing, never kissed a girl Dave getting slapped and slapped by ex-con Darren in front of 10's of people in the beer garden.

I wanted to do something but was too scared of what would happen to me.

So I just sat there.

Dave (pip squeak voiced, blink-but-don't-talk-to-anyone) Dave looked around said "you're all leaving?".
Looked at the departing 16 17 year olds and said "isn't anyone gonna help me?"
I just sat there 2 feet opposite him, unable to move, shitting myself. (Et tu Brute?)

Dave said to Darren out of nowhere "You wanna fight motherfucker? You wanna fight?" (Dave???)

The word went round the whole pub. there must have been 60-70 people forming a crowd in that gravel pub car park that we walked to. You could taste the adrenaline in the air., it was metallic. It was a warm summers night. We were not rolling dice and discussing hit points any more. We were not in Kansas any more.

I have been a witness 5 times in criminal court over violent crimes in the years since then.
When court reports talk about those 'grotesque' and 'vicious' attacks we were all there to testify on it doesn't to come close to how brutal that beating was.

At one point Dave was on the ground and Darren was kicking him repeatedly in the face. hard as he could.

Dave who lived every day with a Dad who, even if he so much as coughed in the other room, the whole rest of the house hold shat themselves, house hold stopped what they were doing..

He was getting booted and booted in his blood covered face.

And the idiot..

Started laughing.

He grabbed Darren's boot with a force that stopped his toe punt dead in its tracks. Darren couldn't move his whole leg. he was stuck.
And then Dave started head butting his boot. Head butting and head butting it.. and head butting it. to say the audience was shocked is an understatement. Then he climbed slowly up Darren's leg.
The punches and the sheer viciousness of that exchange when they were toe to toe had to be seen to be believed.

But in no time Dave was bouncing Darrens head off wind shields and car bonnets. You could hear the intake of breath all round. No police ever showed. It was known as one of the best fights those in the crowd had seen.

Dave was a hero amongst his turn coat friends for a night.

The kid had a Grade 8 in Piano, a good singing voice, a love of comics and Role Playing Games and he was a good artist and painter. A very good one.
Total geek. No ability to get with women.

We all went off to Uni. Dave stayed living with his parents.
His sisters all married off. Except for one who joined the forces, became a lesbian, committed one of the worst, most outrageous perjury false rape claims I have ever seen or heard of (that the police went along with and actually jailed the poor fucker for in advance of the trial). The case collapsed. She was finally prosecuted for perjury, She hung herself before it went further. It was a cry for help. That poor little fucker that was jailed never touched her. Her dad did. Many times. More than touched her.. But no one ever investigated it.

Dave today is drowning. he married a fat ham planet that can actually find a job outside of the night-shift work that he does. had kids with her. we all hated her when we were younger. Now she calls us occasionally saying that Dave won't leave the house except to go to work. that he clams up and won't even talk. what can we do? he won't meet with us, let alone talk with us.
Pretty sure she cheats on him on the regular.

Young men need their Dads, and they need other male mentor figures as well.

Robert Bly wrote a book called "Iron John" on the subject of men and sons and fathers that I would recommend. For a while, between the ages of 17 and 21, we got Dave into sport (rugby) and coming out on the beers and actually pulling half decent women.
We went on road trips and beat people up (people who were looking for a fight just as much as we were) in places like Manchester and the Midlands. Dave was sometimes a shit rugby player and some times a force of nature on the pitch. We backed him every step of the wy in the gym and the training paddock. We had some wild times in the process.
All this is covered by Robert Bly. Groups of Young men, be it in street gangs or otherwise, try to mentor each other and act as the father figures they so desperately need to one another.
It rarely works.

Young men need their Dads, and they need other older male mentor figures as well.

I remember when we were in about 20 going out with some of the older guys from our rugby club for a few beers. Mark and Steve. Mid-30's, family men. Mild mannered. One a builder, the other a plumber. We were all play fighting in the street when, without hurting him, they took Dave's defences and blows apart as if they were playing with a kitten. I was shocked. I'd never met anyone who could match Dave. And yet here were these mild mannered guys from nearly the same street as me showing that he was nothing compared to them.

But this is the thing. Whats really missing in this un-mentored world is initiation for young men into the blood, the beer, the piss and vinegar, the secrets of older male-dom that will never be discussed in a corporate logo-sponsored 'mentoring conference'.

Robert Bly calls it the 'uncle at the wedding' the secret knowledge that male elders can only pass on, in close proximity to their younger charges.

And yet I never hear it or see it these days. It was only at my Dad's funeral that I heard some red blooded stories about him.

When I was facing jail time for assault he gave me a big lecture about self discipline and being law abiding.

I took the advice of older male mentors I sought out in later years in the absence of a good relationship with my Dad.

If your father is still alive and not a rapist monster the advice is this:

Stay close with your Dad. ie: keep in touch.
Don't try and compete with him.
Don't try to impress him.
Just spend time with him.
And Do the Things That he Likes to Do.

Garden centres. Football Games. Fishing. Old Curio shops. Whatever he's into.
It makes a difference.

He might start to open up. Don't push too hard but.. get him , eventually, to talk about his own relationship with his father. It will be illuminating.

No matter what kind of dips hit he has been to you when he dies all the bad things will melt away and you will be left wondering what might have been.

In later years I almost died when a 'culturally enriched' gang tried to kill me for 'not being a muslim'. Who would have thought that this would happen in a Scandinavian country that I was visiting with my girlfriend for a 36 hour city break? ( I must write to Ms Merkel and Monsieur Macron about this..)

I told my dad. he told me it was because I thought I was hard and it was probably my fault. My brother and family took the same view.

I kept working at the relationship between us. When the court's verdict said that they had looked hard for any evidence of provocation from me and could find none my brother stuck to his guns. My father relented.

He told me that - back when I was teenager and facing jail time he had been especially worried because he too had been in the same trouble with the law at exactly the same age. No one has ever told me that since. If I hadn't worked at our relationship I would never have known that.
he told me about the mistakes he'd made when he joined the navy as a teenager. the regrets he harboured.
If I hadn't stuck at it I never would have heard these things.
far too little. far too late.

But without patience and work I wouldn't even have had that to reflect on when I think of him now that he is gone.

So.. along rambling tale.. but hopefully in there is some advice that others can use.

[tomzestatlu]

(12-04-2018 04:30 AM)Bienvenuto Wrote:  

Take the example of my mate Dave.
....

That´s sad story. Honestly since beginning I hoped in some good ending.



I see that the most widened answer on this forum is go do BJJ, go to gym, whatever. But I would say it doesn´t work here.
At first, I don´t think that you can find life mentors at such places. I know it, because I am frequent at this places. Some of the guys are good fighters and heavy hitters, but nobody to learn about life from. Actually true opposite. They usually work really bad jobs and are very beta in their relationships. And all of them are one leg in jail. I respect them for some things, when I was younger I was amazed by this type of guys and did some things with them, that could end up badly for me.
At second, lifting weights alone won´t get me anywhere. I do, I will stay commited to sport until my health would allow me and I can say, that I reached some kind of peak. But I realized one thing. Sport became answer for anything: girl broken my ego -> workout, I am not satisfied with myself -> workout, I have to urge to do something with my life -> workout.
It might worked, when I was younger, but now it doesn´t. It brang me a lot of advantages, like some achievments, girls and generally, people have bigger respect for you (and I am not talking about fear). But I will be 30 in 4 years and it doesn´t count. What is counting now is success.
For everybody success can be something different. Image for succesful man in my mind is a guy in his 40s, hot commited wife, at least 3 kids, own house and enough money to feel free, not worried about surviving from month to month.
3 years ago I would consider myself in current situation succesful, but as I am closing to my 30, scale had changed a lot. The only guys around in my age who seem to be doing good are having it, because of the support from their family.

I have so much energy in myself, next year I will be 27 and that should by the most vital year for me, time for big things. I want to use the energy to create life I dream, but honestly, I don´t know how direct this energy. All I know about spending energy is to workout and chase hoes, but I need to direct this energy and create something really meaningful and some fortune for my future family.



I haven´t seen my father for years. Last time I have seen him uncoscious in hospital, when he fell down on his head, when he was drunk on Monday morning and they called me, because I am one of his two relatives. Since his teens he´s heavy drinker, gambler and it´s miracle he´s still alive. I remembers him as a person, who looks like homeless and speaks so bad you can´t understand him. He calls me usually once a year and suggests meeting. I always agree, but we never meet, because when he calls me, he´s drunk and doesn´t remember our appointment. He inherited some property and he immediately sold it and spend money on his lifestyle. There were some land that wasn´t sold, but it was taken from him because of his debts. I remember one night he called my mother and told her, that he just won and immediately lost 50 thousands dollars in casino. It was so much money back then, that you could almost buy a flat in this country. And I, his only child, have never seen any money from him.
My mother has alcohol issues too. She always fed me, that´s true. But as I grow adult I realized one thing. I don´t remember any moment, when she would take me to playground as a normal child. She was only taking me to pub. Once she came to me and asked me "But you didn´t had bad childhood, right?" What am I supposed to asnwer to her, I spent my childhood in a fucking pub with her drunk friends. When I was small child, we were supposed to draw how we play with our parents. Everybody draw how they play with ball and other stuff parents and their children do and I draw myself sitting with her in a pub with a beer. A lot of people ask me, why I ran to military school, when I was 15 and now I am getting to understand it.

I feel I am capable of being much more succesful in life, but on the other hand I see there´s only thin line between reaching meaningful life and being drunk stupid living from month to month.

[porscheguy]

(11-30-2018 08:32 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

Have you considered the narcissism of young men today? Most wouldn't even know that they need a mentor, and those few who do are way too proud/stupid to look for one.

This ^^^.

At the beginning of the summer I was out on the boat. I stopped at a place where people frequently go and drop anchor to chill for a while. I see some young kids in a ‘17 Whaler. Older boat that was freshly repowered. It was 3 boys, 3 girls. They pull up their anchor and go to start their boat. Nothing. There was another boat there with two guys who looked slightly older. They seemed to know each other. The kid operating the Whaler farted around for a few minutes and I guess he called his father. I saw he had issues, and I was within voice range and asked if he needed help. He flat out told me no, his father was calling someone. They had also pulled up their anchor. There was a breeze pushing the boat into shore. Then something amazing happened. The girls got off their boat and onto the other boat. One of the girls “jokingly” hugged one of the guys on the working boat and said “my hero” to the laughs of the others. They leave. These 3 dummies are drifting closer to the shore that has lots of downed trees ready to fuck up their lower unit and prop. I shout out “you guys might want to drop your anchor until help arrives to keep you away from shore.” “No, I don’t want to do that, we’ll just push it back out if it gets too close.” Twice I watched them frantically jump overboard and start pushing the boat away from shore. Then I saw a storm brewing and everyone else leaving. I yelled out “at least your girls are safe with those other dudes, looks like rain, hope your pumps are working.” I fired up my engine, pulled in my anchor and got back to the ramp as the first drops were falling.

These guys were beyond hope. I grew up on the water with boats. In high school having unsupervised boat access makes you a god among high school girls during the season. Those idiots waited an hour for sea tow while their girls got gamed by the dudes on the working boat. But the thing that really got me was my offer of assistance, and later my suggestion were both rebuffed with a bit of attitude. I felt zero regret as I hauled my anchor and proceeded to drive off and leave them to the storm in their broken boat.

[Subtext]

I used to think that "getting to know my father" would solve all my problems, too. Well, I met with him a few times when I was twenty three, and was stationed at Fort Gordon at the time. Then we talked on the phone for a few months after that. And then I asked him a question about how things went down before the divorce 21 years prior. He got all defensive (it's not any of your business). In fact, I didn't even ask him about it directly. I just asked if he remembered Jenny. I didn't think I was being accusatory. I was really just curious. But as I said, he got defensive. He cut the conversation short with one of those obvious vague excuses - you know the kind. Thereafter, our conversations would be cut short after about 3 or 4 minutes in the same fashion, either by me or him. And the phone calls slowed to a trickle, then stopped. Maybe it was my fault for not apologizing for blindsiding him. Maybe I had a right to know. Doesn't really matter now, though. Haven't spoken to him in 10 years, which makes it just like the ten years before that. I'm sick of hearing that fathers solve everything. Because they don't. Sometimes, the maladjusted miscreant you grow up into is exactly what you were destined to grow into, because that's what your father was, and it's up to you to figure out how to fix it. As far as I'm concerned, this meme about reconnecting with estranged parents being the solution to life's woes is just a TV trope, and needs to die. Because I'll tell you something. My parents got divorced when I was 2. My father's parents got divorced when he was young, too. Yeah, my grandfather got remarried at some point, but that changes nothing, really. The fact is, broken homes run in my family. So the notion that family would be the solution to my problems when those problems were largely derived from a broken home seems like canned advice to me.

Quote:

Forgive me, but of all the complaints of "stop posting and take action" on other threads that are somewhat interesting --- a lot of which annoy me --- it should be for this thread. The issue isn't "mentoring." This kind of thread pops up only in an already (rapidly) declining society in which, by definition, men have already given up or lost their agency.

In the golden age of America, being a man and being a woman, and their respective characteristics, were known and more importantly, acted out for all to see. It wasn't a mystery. It was what everyone did. No complaining, no question, not too much time on your hands mental breakdowns or autism.

In rapidly declining societies, family is broken, women are sexually irresponsible (broken families), single parent families are common (same idea), media and institutions still support female sexual irresponsibility, and thus males can't just wake up and look at their dads, their neighbors, their leaders, etc. and know the truth, which is living the truth.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but until women are dependent on men in some way or another, none of this changes. Whether this is due to economic collapse, renewal of traditional religious practice, shaming, or all of the above, you won't have any solution to the core problem.

This is precisely why mentoring is a co-opted term, making the best in a bad situation. I hear such words thrown around all the time --- for kids without fathers or for women to be led by men. It's just another bs buzzword, intrinsically worthless, actually testifying to the real, underlying societal problem.

Think about it.

I think this is very insightful.