[Sardino]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...tment.html

The lesbian parents of an 11-year-old boy who is undergoing the process of becoming a girl last night defended the decision, claiming it was better for a child to have a sex change when young.

Thomas Lobel, who now calls himself Tammy, is undergoing controversial hormone blocking treatment in Berkeley, California to stop him going through puberty as a boy.

But Pauline Moreno and Debra Lobel warn that children with gender identity disorder forced to postpone transitioning could face a higher risk of suicide.

The mothers say that one of the first things Thomas told them when he learned sign language aged three - because of a speech impediment - was, 'I am a girl'.

At age seven, after threatening genital mutilation on himself, psychiatrists diagnosed Thomas with gender identity disorder. By the age of eight, he began transitioning.

This summer, he started taking hormone-blocking drugs, which will stop him from experiencing puberty.

The hormone-suppressant, implanted in his upper left arm, will postpone the 11-year-old developing broad shoulders, deep voice and facial hair.

The couple faced intense criticism from friends and family as a result, Ms Moreno told MailOnline.

'Everybody was angry with us. "How could you be doing this? You might be ruining his whole life!"

Citing a statistic from the Youth Suicide Prevention Program, Ms Moreno noted over 50 per cent of transgender youth will have had at least one suicide attempt by their 20th birthday.

And ignoring their son's incessant pleas, she said, simply was not worth the risk.

'What is so frightening to me is that you would be willing to say "no" just because you don't like it - even though your child could lose their life?'

Her son's adolescent transition, she hopes, will help him have a less conflicted adulthood.

'The whole idea now is let's stop creating a third (gender) that is neither one thing or the other, so we transitioned her,' said Ms Moreno.

'The protocol now is to transition these children as soon as you can make a diagnosis, because otherwise they end up being not one thing or the other... because they experienced puberty.'

Ms Moreno recalled the first step of Thomas' transition to becoming female by letting him pick his own clothes.

He favoured headbands to baseball hats and picked out bras and dresses to start wearing when given choice in clothing to wear. And the change in his personality, Ms Moreno says, was instant.

'He was in his own world just completely detached and that was a problem we always had was getting Thomas to participate in life,' she said. 'What we saw emerge when Tammy was allowed to be Tammy is, "Whoa!"... It was an immediate transformation. She was so giggly and she was now interacting she was now making it a point to defend herself.'

The diagnosis has been hard to accept for Tammy's parents.

The couple were married in 1990 by a rabbi and have two older sons and grandchildren. But they insist their sexuality has nothing to do with it.

'It was odd to us,' she said. 'Even though she has lesbians as parents, this is all new to us in every possible way. We know what it's like to feel different - we've got that one. But to feel like you're not in the right body was just something we could not put our heads around.'

Fortunately, the family has a vast support system. The couple credits Tammy's teachers and officials at Children's Learning Center in Alameda, California, and their religious community, for being open-minded about their son's decision.

'We live in the Bay area where lots of alternative lifestyles are in place... and we belong to a religious community that was incredibly supportive. They make it a point when we're in synagogue to come over and tell Tammy, "Oh, you look so pretty today,' Ms Moreno said, adding, 'There's never going to be enough gratitude for them.'

His parents say the hormone treatment will give him time to figure out if he wants to fully transition to being female or go through puberty as a boy.

If he chooses to stop taking the drugs, he will undergo natural male puberty at a later stage and his future fertility would not be impacted.

Should their son decide to transition to an adult female, he can take female hormones as well, which would raise his voice, allow him to grow breasts and develop other feminine physical characteristics.

San Francisco, right by Berkeley, is one of four cities in the United States with a hospital that has a program for transgender children.

The University of California San Francisco is home to the Center of Excellence for Transgender Health.

Children are seen at length by mental health professionals and then treated by pediatric endocrinologists.

Others cities with youth programs are Boston, Seattle and Los Angeles.

[scorpio]

As a classmate of mine observed, how many boys are going to think it's okay to be gay when the girls start fucking with their head?

[Gmac]

At what point do we say, "Ok, that's going a little too far..."?

[Screwston]

I don't know what to say. I don't think gay parents should be allowed to raise a kid.

[gringochileno]

I dunno, I think the reasoning is sound in this case. If the kid has gender identity disorder, it's better for him to go through a sex change now than wait until after puberty when hormone therapy and surgery won't be able to keep him from looking like a freak. A lot of transgender people end up attempting suicide and if there's a way to give him the chance to have a normal life then I say go for it.

[scorpio]

(10-02-2011 03:59 PM)gringochileno Wrote:  

I dunno, I think the reasoning is sound in this case. If the kid has gender identity disorder, it's better for him to go through a sex change now than wait until after puberty when hormone therapy and surgery won't be able to keep him from looking like a freak. A lot of transgender people end up attempting suicide and if there's a way to give him the chance to have a normal life then I say go for it.

Are you seriously shitting me? Might as well let that kid buy a gun, get married, drink alcohol, and join the military by that reasoning. He's ELEVEN years old.

They're worried because he's withdrawn. Guess what? I was withdrawn and sulky at that age. It's called being a kid.

I can imagine how many pro-women, anti-masculine feedback that kid got growing up. He's a kid. He's impressionable. He got impressed into being a wanna-be bulldyke stuck with a cock. I'm sure his parents would love to be the ones who cut off his dick and balls. Since they can't, they'll probably record it and send it to NOW when they're done.

[Gmac]

If this was a relatively normal, straight couple with no extreme views, I might be more inclined to agree with you. Personally, I want to know more about the child's upbringing up to then and these women and their backgrounds, beliefs, etc. I suspect lesbian parental brainwashing, intentional or not.

[gringochileno]

(10-02-2011 04:20 PM)scorpio Wrote:  

(10-02-2011 03:59 PM)gringochileno Wrote:  

I dunno, I think the reasoning is sound in this case. If the kid has gender identity disorder, it's better for him to go through a sex change now than wait until after puberty when hormone therapy and surgery won't be able to keep him from looking like a freak. A lot of transgender people end up attempting suicide and if there's a way to give him the chance to have a normal life then I say go for it.

Are you seriously shitting me? Might as well let that kid buy a gun, get married, drink alcohol, and join the military by that reasoning. He's ELEVEN years old.

They're worried because he's withdrawn. Guess what? I was withdrawn and sulky at that age. It's called being a kid.

I can imagine how many pro-women, anti-masculine feedback that kid got growing up. He's a kid. He's impressionable. He got impressed into being a wanna-be bulldyke stuck with a cock. I'm sure his parents would love to be the ones who cut off his dick and balls. Since they can't, they'll probably record it and send it to NOW when they're done.

How do you know any of that? You're speculating and I think it's mostly driven by the fact that the parents are lesbians. There's no evidence that it's possible to brainwash a child into having the opposite gender identity. No study has ever found any link between environmental factors and gender identity disorder, and in fact when you look at brain scans of people who have GID they look more like brain scans of people of the opposite sex than the same sex in important ways.

I really doubt the physicians who made the diagnosis were basing it purely on the fact that he's "sullen." He has what looks like a pretty typical case presentation for transgender children--present since he can remember, persistent and strong identification of the opposite sex.

I know it's hard to relate to the mindset of a transgender person without imagining that they've been somehow brainwashed, but it's a real, well-documented phenomenon. I think the family is doing the right thing here, which is to delay puberty as long as possible using hormone blockers so the kid can make his own decision when he's more mature.

[Samseau]

Quote:

No study has ever found any link between environmental factors and gender identity disorder.

That's not true.

Plenty of studies have been conducted, but the results are unpopular so they are ignored.

Quote:

For anyone interested in the general subject of the way in which child rearing norms affect the culture and vise-versa, the specific discussion of the rearing of homosexuals is enlightening. Engel quotes Dr. Richard Fitzgibbons, a member of the National Association for the Research and Treatment of Homosexuality (NARTH) who writes that “systematic familial disturbances feature prominently among the many etiological factors that contribute to the development of Same Sex Attraction Disorder (SSAD) in the young male.” The family system contributes to the making of a neurotic first; homosexuality is an expression of the neurosis. “[T]hese neurotic and/or pathological traits and impulses exist in a pre-homosexual (H) child, for want of a better term, at an early age, that is, before adolescent sexual development begins and before a young man identifies his homoerotic desires.” The consensus of the therapists who recognized homosexuality as a neurosis is that it is a narcissistic neurosis, and, as such, a sign of neurotic immaturity.

Though acknowledging that the making of homosexual is complex and unique in each case, Engel runs through the common causalities. Very generally (Engel goes into substantial detail) these common causalities include: a “close-binding-intimate” bond between the H-male and his mother (he is usually the mother’s favorite); a poor relationship with a “submissive-detached-rejecting” father; a failure to make “chums” with male peers during pre-adolescence and adolescence (the “sissy boy syndrome”); a response to feelings of male inferiority that is characterized by “habitual ‘self-pity’ or ‘self-dramatization;’” the practice of solitary masturbation from an early age; and initiation into homosexual activity by an older man, often in the form of child abuse. This final cause is often the boy or youth’s initiation into any kind of sexual activity—in other words, he experienced homosex before he had experienced heterosex. “Van Wyk and Geist concluded that, based on their data on masturbation and homosexuality, ‘learning through experience seems to be an important pathway to later sexual preference.’”

It seems that this boy was fucked up from having two lesbian mothers, and he got indoctrinated into the gay worldview. How could he not?

[gringochileno]

Samseau do you have a link to where the study is published? Based on those two paragraphs and the fact that the organization that conducted it is called "National Association for the Research and Treatment of Homosexuality" (what is that, one of those "gay conversion" groups?), I'd bet it wasn't in any peer-reviewed journal.

Anyway, even in the very, very, very unlikely event that the research turns out to be legit ("Same Sex Attractive Disorder"? Fucking lol), what you posted seems to be talking about homosexuality, not gender identity disorder. They're two different things.

[Samseau]

My bad. Forgot the link.

http://www.culturewars.com/2007/Engel.html

The book can be found here.

Keep in mind that the book was written in part to Critique the Roman Catholic Church.

Quote:

what you posted seems to be talking about homosexuality, not gender identity disorder. They're two different things.

So you think that if the boy in question of the OP didn't have a sex-change he wouldn't become gay?

[gringochileno]

(10-02-2011 07:19 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

My bad. Forgot the link.

http://www.culturewars.com/2007/Engel.html

The book can be found here.

Keep in mind that the book was written in part to Critique the Roman Catholic Church.

So is there anywhere I can find the actual research by this Dr. Robert Fitzgibbons that purportedly overturns the overwhelming mainstream scientific consensus on what causes homosexuality?

Quote:

Quote:

what you posted seems to be talking about homosexuality, not gender identity disorder. They're two different things.

So you think that if the boy in question of the OP didn't have a sex-change he wouldn't become gay?

Not necessarily. Some transgender people are attracted to men and some are attracted to women. I think it's actually somewhat more common to be attracted to the opposite of your original biological sex (i.e., if you don't get a sex change, you will be heterosexual). Gender identification and sexual orientation aren't the same thing. One is who you're attracted to and the other is who you feel like you are.

[Yams]

How the hell are you going to even do shit like this before the puberty years? The kid has a tantrum and the butch parents just gives in to the kid's demands? Whatever.

[El Rey]

Fucking trannies. I guess he or she (?) will have a future as a bottom of the barrel hooker.

[ersatz]

Hetrosexual couples have also done similar things. Kim Petras in Germany is one famous example of this. Many gay couples want life to be as normal as possible for their kids, older gay men have told me if they could not be gay, they would, since life would be much easier. Male hormonal effects are pretty much irreversible and complete, while female hormonal effects are significantly easier to reverse. You'll notice that only the guys trying to become girls stand out looking freakish, you never notice the girls becoming guys. Look at Buck Angel to see how testosterone completely changes a human body to look, smell, sound and think like a guy.

[Samseau]

(10-02-2011 07:25 PM)gringochileno Wrote:  

(10-02-2011 07:19 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

My bad. Forgot the link.

http://www.culturewars.com/2007/Engel.html

The book can be found here.

Keep in mind that the book was written in part to Critique the Roman Catholic Church.

So is there anywhere I can find the actual research by this Dr. Robert Fitzgibbons that purportedly overturns the overwhelming mainstream scientific consensus on what causes homosexuality?

I've only seen this book recommended on various forums and quoted for it's controversial views, but unfortunately the only way to check it's research is to buy the book.

I can't find anywhere online where the references are listed.

"The book contains 1318 pages, 4,538 end-notes, (these are “footnotes” that follow each of the nineteen chapters, in order to facilitate a smooth reading of the narrative), quotes from over 350 authors, and a full Index. Randy Engel has done more than her homework, and readers will gasp at the extent and thoroughness of her meticulous research. This was accomplished over a doggedly investigative period, of over fifteen years, and the resulting pages of this spectacular work, reflect, in every aspect, the very high degree of credibility her massive research reveals. "

From here. You can also find an interview with the author at this link.

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

what you posted seems to be talking about homosexuality, not gender identity disorder. They're two different things.

So you think that if the boy in question of the OP didn't have a sex-change he wouldn't become gay?

Not necessarily. Some transgender people are attracted to men and some are attracted to women. I think it's actually somewhat more common to be attracted to the opposite of your original biological sex (i.e., if you don't get a sex change, you will be heterosexual). Gender identification and sexual orientation aren't the same thing. One is who you're attracted to and the other is who you feel like you are.

Why would someone want to become the same gender they are attracted to? Wouldn't that make one's job of attracting that gender much harder? Makes no sense to me.

[Gmac]

(10-03-2011 03:12 AM)ersatz Wrote:  

Hetrosexual couples have also done similar things. Kim Petras in Germany is one famous example of this. Many gay couples want life to be as normal as possible for their kids, older gay men have told me if they could not be gay, they would, since life would be much easier. Male hormonal effects are pretty much irreversible and complete, while female hormonal effects are significantly easier to reverse. You'll notice that only the guys trying to become girls stand out looking freakish, you never notice the girls becoming guys. Look at Buck Angel to see how testosterone completely changes a human body to look, smell, sound and think like a guy.

Wow. Well, I think Buck Angel is in the minority... most who go through with the swap don't look quite that authentic -- from what I've seen.

[gringochileno]

(10-03-2011 08:06 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

(10-02-2011 07:25 PM)gringochileno Wrote:  

(10-02-2011 07:19 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

My bad. Forgot the link.

http://www.culturewars.com/2007/Engel.html

The book can be found here.

Keep in mind that the book was written in part to Critique the Roman Catholic Church.

So is there anywhere I can find the actual research by this Dr. Robert Fitzgibbons that purportedly overturns the overwhelming mainstream scientific consensus on what causes homosexuality?

I've only seen this book recommended on various forums and quoted for it's controversial views, but unfortunately the only way to check it's research is to buy the book.

I can't find anywhere online where the references are listed.

"The book contains 1318 pages, 4,538 end-notes, (these are “footnotes” that follow each of the nineteen chapters, in order to facilitate a smooth reading of the narrative), quotes from over 350 authors, and a full Index. Randy Engel has done more than her homework, and readers will gasp at the extent and thoroughness of her meticulous research. This was accomplished over a doggedly investigative period, of over fifteen years, and the resulting pages of this spectacular work, reflect, in every aspect, the very high degree of credibility her massive research reveals. "

From here. You can also find an interview with the author at this link.

Unless there's peer-reviewed literature you can link me to that supports any of what this guy is saying, I'm going to put it in the pseudoscientific bullshit pile because that's exactly what it sounds like. The guy calls homosexuality "Same Sex Attraction Disorder" for fuck's sake.

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

what you posted seems to be talking about homosexuality, not gender identity disorder. They're two different things.

So you think that if the boy in question of the OP didn't have a sex-change he wouldn't become gay?

Not necessarily. Some transgender people are attracted to men and some are attracted to women. I think it's actually somewhat more common to be attracted to the opposite of your original biological sex (i.e., if you don't get a sex change, you will be heterosexual). Gender identification and sexual orientation aren't the same thing. One is who you're attracted to and the other is who you feel like you are.

Why would someone want to become the same gender they are attracted to? Wouldn't that make one's job of attracting that gender much harder? Makes no sense to me.

Why are you attracted to women instead of men? Isn't it significantly harder to get sex from women? Understand that it isn't a choice. These people feel like they "should" be the opposite sex and that they're stuck in the wrong body. The fact that it would be easier if they didn't feel that way is immaterial.

[Samseau]

Quote:

Unless there's peer-reviewed literature you can link me to that supports any of what this guy is saying, I'm going to put it in the pseudoscientific bullshit pile because that's exactly what it sounds like. The guy calls homosexuality "Same Sex Attraction Disorder" for fuck's sake.

You sound like you've swallowed the feminist PC mantra with virtually zero critical thought.


"Peer-Reviewed" = One of the worst logical fallacies in the world, "Argument from Authority"

1. 50 years from now, everything that is "peer-reviewed" will be ancient history. All the science will be updated, the political theories rejected, and the men of prestige forgotten.

"Peer-reviewed" means nothing.

2. Those who get to do the review in "peer-review" are only those who do not question the status-quo or PC sacred cows.



Since the book touches on a subject completely taboo in the medical/scientific world, it should be expected to find no peer-reviews of the book. Any professor who reviewed that book would be expelled from his institution, even if tenured. The studies must be read by yourself if you wish to judge its validity.



And homosexuality is a disorder, an obvious defect in sexual nature. Homosexuals have zero reproductive value.

Quote:

Why are you attracted to women instead of men? Isn't it significantly harder to get sex from women?

The issue isn't whether or not I'm attracted to men or women. That much is a given. The issue is why someone would want to change genders based on their sexual preferences.

THE GIVEN: Your attraction to a man/woman.

THE OUTCOME: Stay the opposition sex in order to maximize mating opportunities.


Why would someone change themselves into the same sex as what they are attracted to? It would decrease their chances of sex with their desired partners.

The boy in the original article is assuredly gay, and is changing his gender to reflect his sexual preferences.

Quote:

Understand that it isn't a choice.

Yeah? How do you know?

Quote:

These people feel like they "should" be the opposite sex and that they're stuck in the wrong body.

Why would they feel that way if they weren't gay?

[gringochileno]

(10-03-2011 02:41 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

Quote:

Unless there's peer-reviewed literature you can link me to that supports any of what this guy is saying, I'm going to put it in the pseudoscientific bullshit pile because that's exactly what it sounds like. The guy calls homosexuality "Same Sex Attraction Disorder" for fuck's sake.

You sound like you've swallowed the feminist PC mantra with virtually zero critical thought.


"Peer-Reviewed" = One of the worst logical fallacies in the world, "Argument from Authority"

1. 50 years from now, everything that is "peer-reviewed" will be ancient history. All the science will be updated, the political theories rejected, and the men of prestige forgotten.

"Peer-reviewed" means nothing.

That is such utter bullshit. The entire point of peer review in science is that people who make assertions have to publish their methods and data collection in such a way that anyone can examine their results and see if their data really supports their conclusions, and if necessary repeat the study so the results can be replicated. The fact that scientific knowledge is updated over the years is a strength, not a weakness. It means that people who do science are critically examining the research that's being done and rejecting claims that don't stand up to scrutiny.

I also don't think you understand what an argument from authority fallacy is. It isn't fallacious to get information by appealing to experts in a field in which you lack expertise yourself. If it were, then you'd have no basis for accepting a lot of the things we take for granted. For example, do you really think you understand the general theory of relativity well enough to judge for yourself whether Einstein was right or wrong without appealing to what the physics community thinks? No, neither of us does, but if you had to bet on it I bet you'd pay attention to what expert physicists think before placing your wager.

Quote:

2. Those who get to do the review in "peer-review" are only those who do not question the status-quo or PC sacred cows.

Since the book touches on a subject completely taboo in the medical/scientific world, it should be expected to find no peer-reviews of the book. Any professor who reviewed that book would be expelled from his institution, even if tenured. The studies must be read by yourself if you wish to judge its validity.

And yet you haven't read the very study you're advancing as evidence of your claims. You can't even link me to it so I can review it myself.

Also, nobody would peer-review the book because books written for popular audiences don't get peer-reviewed. Rigorous studies submitted to academic journals do, and if the methods and results stand up to the scrutiny of experts they get published. After they're published, everyone else can scrutinize the methods and results and if they don't stand up to scrutiny then the study is modified or rejected. It's pretty much the opposite of the way things would work if there were a conspiracy to shut out unpopular views.

Quote:

And homosexuality is a disorder, an obvious defect in sexual nature. Homosexuals have zero reproductive value.

There's been quite a bit of research into the evolution of homosexuality. The current thinking is that homosexuality is an occasional side effect of the expression of genes that otherwise confer survival and reproductive advantages. Here's one study to get you started if you're interested in learning more: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18561014

Quote:

Quote:

Why are you attracted to women instead of men? Isn't it significantly harder to get sex from women?

The issue isn't whether or not I'm attracted to men or women. That much is a given. The issue is why someone would want to change genders based on their sexual preferences.

THE GIVEN: Your attraction to a man/woman.

THE OUTCOME: Stay the opposition sex in order to maximize mating opportunities.


Why would someone change themselves into the same sex as what they are attracted to? It would decrease their chances of sex with their desired partners.

The boy in the original article is assuredly gay, and is changing his gender to reflect his sexual preferences.

Again, you're really betraying your ignorance of this condition here. The fact is that the majority of people with gender identity disorder are attracted to people of the opposite sex. Your sexual orientation and your gender identity are both "givens." Based on statistics, it's actually more likely than not that this boy will heterosexual if he doesn't get a sex change. It's also pretty likely that he'll try to kill himself.

Quote:

Quote:

Understand that it isn't a choice.

Yeah? How do you know?

OK when did you choose to want to be male?

Quote:

Quote:

These people feel like they "should" be the opposite sex and that they're stuck in the wrong body.

Why would they feel that way if they weren't gay?

You seem like you're looking for a rational reason for it when there is none. Your gender identity isn't something you select for reasons X, Y, and Z to maximize your advantage, it's an integral part of how you conceptualize yourself and what feels right or natural. I bet if I could rationally convince you that it would be to your advantage to be a woman you'd still want to be a man because the practical consequences have nothing to do with it. Transgender people basically feel the way that you or I would feel if we woke up in a chick's body.

[Gmac]

(10-03-2011 05:20 PM)gringochileno Wrote:  

(10-03-2011 02:41 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

Quote:

Unless there's peer-reviewed literature you can link me to that supports any of what this guy is saying, I'm going to put it in the pseudoscientific bullshit pile because that's exactly what it sounds like. The guy calls homosexuality "Same Sex Attraction Disorder" for fuck's sake.

You sound like you've swallowed the feminist PC mantra with virtually zero critical thought.


"Peer-Reviewed" = One of the worst logical fallacies in the world, "Argument from Authority"

1. 50 years from now, everything that is "peer-reviewed" will be ancient history. All the science will be updated, the political theories rejected, and the men of prestige forgotten.

"Peer-reviewed" means nothing.

That is such utter bullshit. The entire point of peer review in science is that people who make assertions have to publish their methods and data collection in such a way that anyone can examine their results and see if their data really supports their conclusions, and if necessary repeat the study so the results can be replicated. The fact that scientific knowledge is updated over the years is a strength, not a weakness. It means that people who do science are critically examining the research that's being done and rejecting claims that don't stand up to scrutiny.

I also don't think you understand what an argument from authority fallacy is. It isn't fallacious to get information by appealing to experts in a field in which you lack expertise yourself. If it were, then you'd have no basis for accepting a lot of the things we take for granted. For example, do you really think you understand the general theory of relativity well enough to judge for yourself whether Einstein was right or wrong without appealing to what the physics community thinks? No, neither of us does, but if you had to bet on it I bet you'd pay attention to what expert physicists think before placing your wager.

Quote:

2. Those who get to do the review in "peer-review" are only those who do not question the status-quo or PC sacred cows.

Since the book touches on a subject completely taboo in the medical/scientific world, it should be expected to find no peer-reviews of the book. Any professor who reviewed that book would be expelled from his institution, even if tenured. The studies must be read by yourself if you wish to judge its validity.

And yet you haven't read the very study you're advancing as evidence of your claims. You can't even link me to it so I can review it myself.

Also, nobody would peer-review the book because books written for popular audiences don't get peer-reviewed. Rigorous studies submitted to academic journals do, and if the methods and results stand up to the scrutiny of experts they get published. After they're published, everyone else can scrutinize the methods and results and if they don't stand up to scrutiny then the study is modified or rejected. It's pretty much the opposite of the way things would work if there were a conspiracy to shut out unpopular views.

Quote:

And homosexuality is a disorder, an obvious defect in sexual nature. Homosexuals have zero reproductive value.

There's been quite a bit of research into the evolution of homosexuality. The current thinking is that homosexuality is an occasional side effect of the expression of genes that otherwise confer survival and reproductive advantages. Here's one study to get you started if you're interested in learning more: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18561014

Quote:

Quote:

Why are you attracted to women instead of men? Isn't it significantly harder to get sex from women?

The issue isn't whether or not I'm attracted to men or women. That much is a given. The issue is why someone would want to change genders based on their sexual preferences.

THE GIVEN: Your attraction to a man/woman.

THE OUTCOME: Stay the opposition sex in order to maximize mating opportunities.


Why would someone change themselves into the same sex as what they are attracted to? It would decrease their chances of sex with their desired partners.

The boy in the original article is assuredly gay, and is changing his gender to reflect his sexual preferences.

Again, you're really betraying your ignorance of this condition here. The fact is that the majority of people with gender identity disorder are attracted to people of the opposite sex. Your sexual orientation and your gender identity are both "givens." Based on statistics, it's actually more likely than not that this boy will heterosexual if he doesn't get a sex change. It's also pretty likely that he'll try to kill himself.

Quote:

Quote:

Understand that it isn't a choice.

Yeah? How do you know?

OK when did you choose to want to be male?

Quote:

Quote:

These people feel like they "should" be the opposite sex and that they're stuck in the wrong body.

Why would they feel that way if they weren't gay?

You seem like you're looking for a rational reason for it when there is none. Your gender identity isn't something you select for reasons X, Y, and Z to maximize your advantage, it's an integral part of how you conceptualize yourself and what feels right or natural. I bet if I could rationally convince you that it would be to your advantage to be a woman you'd still want to be a man because the practical consequences have nothing to do with it. Transgender people basically feel the way that you or I would feel if we woke up in a chick's body.

Solid.

[gringochileno]

(10-03-2011 05:29 PM)Gmac Wrote:  



Solid.

So have I convinced you that the family is probably doing the right thing here? We can't say for sure since the only people with access to all the particulars of the case who are really in a position to judge are the family, the doctors involved, and the child himself, but in general what you want to do with these kids is delay puberty as long as possible so they hopefully become mature enough to decide for themselves what they want to do. It always raises ethical issues when you have to make a life-altering, unchangeable medical decision for a child, but it's really necessary for some of these kids with GID so they have a shot at living a normal life and don't kill themselves.

[Gmac]

(10-03-2011 06:15 PM)gringochileno Wrote:  

(10-03-2011 05:29 PM)Gmac Wrote:  



Solid.

So have I convinced you that the family is probably doing the right thing here? We can't say for sure since the only people with access to all the particulars of the case who are really in a position to judge are the family, the doctors involved, and the child himself, but in general what you want to do with these kids is delay puberty as long as possible so they hopefully become mature enough to decide for themselves what they want to do. It always raises ethical issues when you have to make a life-altering, unchangeable medical decision for a child, but it's really necessary for some of these kids with GID so they have a shot at living a normal life and don't kill themselves.

I am still on the fence with this one, but I 100% agree with your assessment of gender association. There are a lot of ignorant people who actually still think being gay is unnatural, a disorder, or a disease.

I think it's something that should be decided on a case by case basis. The fact that the kid wanted to kill himself says a lot, but I'm not sure he is really old enough to make that kind of life decision himself. I think the parents had a LARGE role in shaping the child's mind. Who knows what he would think if he were raised by straight parents. But that point is moot, because you have a child that won't have it any other way now.

[gringochileno]

(10-03-2011 06:22 PM)Gmac Wrote:  

(10-03-2011 06:15 PM)gringochileno Wrote:  

(10-03-2011 05:29 PM)Gmac Wrote:  



Solid.

So have I convinced you that the family is probably doing the right thing here? We can't say for sure since the only people with access to all the particulars of the case who are really in a position to judge are the family, the doctors involved, and the child himself, but in general what you want to do with these kids is delay puberty as long as possible so they hopefully become mature enough to decide for themselves what they want to do. It always raises ethical issues when you have to make a life-altering, unchangeable medical decision for a child, but it's really necessary for some of these kids with GID so they have a shot at living a normal life and don't kill themselves.

I am still on the fence with this one, but I 100% agree with your assessment of gender association. There are a lot of ignorant people who actually still think being gay is unnatural, a disorder, or a disease.

I think it's something that should be decided on a case by case basis. The fact that the kid wanted to kill himself says a lot, but I'm not sure he is really old enough to make that kind of life decision himself. I think the parents had a LARGE role in shaping the child's mind. Who knows what he would think if he were raised by straight parents. But that point is moot, because you have a child that won't have it any other way now.

Yes, absolutely I agree that we can't say for sure whether this kid should be put on hormone blockers. We don't know the particulars of the case and it wouldn't be justified for us to render a definitive judgment.

That said, I think you're putting too much emphasis on the fact that the parents are lesbians. As I said before, there isn't any evidence that it's possible to condition someone to have a different gender identity than they would otherwise. I understand why you think it's a significant piece of information but the data just doesn't support parental or any other environmental influence having any role in whether someone turns out to be transgender or not.

What the parents may be able to influence is how this kid comes to terms with his gender identity. He could be taught that it's OK to be the way he is, accept it, and live an at least somewhat normal life, or he could be told he's made an evil, unnatural, and sinful choice, in which case if he survives the probable suicide attempt he could have a bright future as an evangelical Christian conservative politician until his life goes down in flames once it's discovered that he's hiring gay escorts to play dress-up with.

One thing I will say about this case is that it looks like the whole process has been really hard on everyone involved, including the parents. They would have to really have a special kind of contempt for their son to put him, themselves, and their community through this whole ordeal. It's certainly not the easy way out for anybody.

[Samseau]

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That is such utter bullshit. The entire point of peer review in science is that people who make assertions have to publish their methods and data collection in such a way that anyone can examine their results and see if their data really supports their conclusions, and if necessary repeat the study so the results can be replicated.

Your naif assumption that all studies deserving of peer-review receive peer-review is false.

Your other assumption that the studies used in the book cannot be peer-reviewed is also false.

I am willing to bet my arm and leg that the studies in that book can be peer-reviewed, if anyone had the balls to review them.

If I were to buy that book and find out that the reviews used in the book have peer-review, what would you say?

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The fact that scientific knowledge is updated over the years is a strength, not a weakness. It means that people who do science are critically examining the research that's being done and rejecting claims that don't stand up to scrutiny.

The fact that scientific knowledge is updated over the years shows that nothing in science should be taken as fact, and nothing should be ruled out as false.

The people who "do science" are usually nothing more than trained monkeys following the biases of their day. Check up on the history of science if you are interested on this.

It is rare to have genuine scientific revolutions, because most scientists are too busy following each other's results instead of looking for real creativity.

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And yet you haven't read the very study you're advancing as evidence of your claims. You can't even link me to it so I can review it myself.

I linked you the book if you wanted to follow up on it. I'm not going to shell out 45 dollars for a book concerning a subject of only mild interest.

Additionally, because of the book's contrarian anti-PC stance, I'm inclined to believe the studies are more likely to have truth than falsity.

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Also, nobody would peer-review the book because books written for popular audiences don't get peer-reviewed

Yet another flaw in the peer-review method.

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It's pretty much the opposite of the way things would work if there were a conspiracy to shut out unpopular views.

Nope. It's the best way to shut out unpopular views, because the books that don't get peer-reviewed then do not get further peer-review. By ignoring a book and denying it "peer-review", a book becomes marginal. Aldous Huxley would have loved to have thought of something like this.

A similar affair happened in Soviet times, check Lysenko.

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There's been quite a bit of research into the evolution of homosexuality. The current thinking is that homosexuality is an occasional side effect of the expression of genes that otherwise confer survival and reproductive advantages. Here's one study to get you started if you're interested in learning more: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18561014

And your biases are revealed. "Occasional side-effect"? Hahaha.

All that study shows is that the defect of homosexuality is a by-product of a special fecundity gene. The benefits of this special fecundity gene on an entire family of people are great enough to outweigh the negatives of increased homosexuals in the family.

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Again, you're really betraying your ignorance of this condition here.

I'm not betraying anything, since I never claimed to be an expert. I do not think anyone is an expert on this issue, even the ones who claim they are.

The only claim I made was the condition makes no sense to me.

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The fact is that the majority of people with gender identity disorder are attracted to people of the opposite sex. Your sexual orientation and your gender identity are both "givens."

You misunderstood the word "given". I was not talking about what we have as biological givens, but what the original premises of the argument were. The original argument I made, and still is, was that the condition "makes no sense to me", and then I listed why with the "Given".

You asserted that gender-identity and sexuality are unrelated, a questionable assumption at best, so I asked some more questions to flush out your position.

I see that you believe environmental factors have no bearing on the socio-sexuality of a human being, something that is most likely false.

For the record, I believe that both genetics and environmental factors play a role. Non-reductionist is the safer path.

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Based on statistics, it's actually more likely than not that this boy will heterosexual if he doesn't get a sex change. It's also pretty likely that he'll try to kill himself.

What are these stats and where do they come from? Your turn to provide sources.

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OK when did you choose to want to be male?

When my parents decided to raise me as one.

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Your gender identity isn't something you select for reasons X, Y, and Z to maximize your advantage,

You don't know that,

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it's an integral part of how you conceptualize yourself and what feels right or natural.

You don't know that either.

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I bet if I could rationally convince you that it would be to your advantage to be a woman you'd still want to be a man because the practical consequences have nothing to do with it.

A thought experiment with no conclusion, since in theory all you need to do is raise the amount offered for me to become a tranny. The question then becomes not "Would you become a tranny?", but instead "What's your price to become a tranny?"

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Transgender people basically feel the way that you or I would feel if we woke up in a chick's body.

This might be the case for some people, and not others.

This little boy in the original article was most likely transformed by his lesbo mom's and there's no easy way to explain this fact away. Not only did I link a book which has received strong reviews from many different sources, but common sense says that having two lesbian moms can turn a boy gay.