[Dalaran1991]

Got a couple of purple pill guys interested in the idea that "the bullshit decline we see today already happened, in Rome exactly" when we are talking about modern western women.

Sadly after some extensive googling I couldnt find any written sources on the decadence of women in particular, presumably because it's sooooo sexist. There's certainly the work of Gibbon but he doesn't talk about women that much.

On various forums and reddits I have read comments about the decadence of women at the fall of Rome, i.e orgies, hypergamy, killing children (since no abortion was available at the time), false rape accusation and divorce rape. None of the guys cared much in providing the sources though.

Anyone have some sources for me on this? Much appreciated.

[Pride male]

I dont know about that, but if you cant rule your women how can you rule a country?

[RawGod]

There's a reason why you can't find sources - the whole thing is a myth. A few writers at the time wrote about the decadence of Rome in the 1st century AD (Suetonius, Juvenal) - that's basically the peak "orgies and moral decay" era, essentially because it was a peak time for literature as well so these trends in society were immortalised. Well, guess what, Rome survived for centuries more and it declined and fell in much more morally austere times with little depravity or feminism.

[Montrose]

Additionally, presenting the fall of the Roman Empire as a catastrophic negative event is very misleading. The Empire had been a military dictatorship for 200 years (since the crisis of the Third Century), bogged down in corruption, economic decay and social immobilism. The Barbarian kingdoms established in the 5th century were an improvement on many levels.

[Hypno]

I don't know about the Roman Empire, but during the hyperinflation in Germany following WWI, there was a considerable moral decay when the Germans decided to print money to cure the economy and to repay their war reparation. The seminal book on the subject is When Money Dies, by Adam Fergusson. Fergusson was a British journalist and later a member of Parliament who lived in Germnay at the time. While the book's focus is on economics, there is a good discussion of the moral decay. But it wasn't just sexual, but also the destruction of values like thrift and prudence, and the rise in violence.


There is a decent film of this period starring a young Greta Garbo, called The Joyless Street. Its set in Vienna where a similar hyperinflation is occurring. She ends up working in a brothel to make ends meet. The film also touches a bit on the stresses of foreigners with hard currency and the corruption of relationships due to prostitution.

If you are interested in the topic, the film is worth a look if you can find it, otherwise you are not missing much. The book is a very worthwhile read. It was out of print for decade and was selling for over $2000 for a used copy, but someone finally reprinted it.

Also, here is an article that Roosh recommends about the period which is focussed on a different cause. https://www.darkmoon.me/2013/the-sexual-...r-germany/

[Dalaran1991]

Thanks for your replies. Note that I'm not linking women's moral decay to the fall of Rome, that would be absurd. It is however symptoms of a decaying society, as proven all across history. It is simply a natural progression when an empire reaches a certain level of prosperity. So people can stop complaining about "women these days".

However I do believe that when these signs of decay appear, said society starts to go downhill. Sure it could survive for hundreds of years but it's not like those are the golden age, rather a gradual slide into oblivion. Heck, look at present day Germany. Maybe it should fall so a better barbarian kingdom may rise.

@Montrose: that's a very French thing to say and I can totally see where you are coming from Without the fall of the Empire there would be no Kingdom of the Franks, no Clovis and Charlemagne and company etc.

There's a general concensus among historian that the Fall of Rome led to an enormous loss of technological and "humanitarian" progress. There's a reason pre-Charlemagne Europe was called the Dark Ages. SO many technologies were lost (granted, many more were invented) and many humanitarian values are only re-discovered at the Renaissance, etc. The fall wasn't bad in itself but could be called tragic at best.

But I'm getting off topic.

[Montrose]

What are your sources Dalaran? Can you quote historians on that? On the contrary, many historians do not see the political events of the 5th century as a major loss. In fact, trade and social life remained pretty much the same in the Western Med until 3 centuries later; the major event being the Arab conquest of North Africa and Spain. That is for example the grand thesis of Henri Pirenne. Besides, the Empire had uncontestably been is a situation of almost permanent anarchy and civil war since Diocletian in 284. In my opinion, most inhabitants of Western Europe were better off without the Empire.

Also, contrary to the Légende Noire myth of the Middle Ages developed in the 19th century, the Middle Ages were much more advanced technologically than the Roman Empire. Granted, some forgotten ancient texts were rediscovered in the so-called ‘Renaissance’ but one should not overestimate its importance.

[Dalaran1991]

Hmm? Diocletan was well after the "good time" of the Roman Empire, which effectively ended with the Five good emperors, last of which is Marcus Aurelius who wrote Meditations, the source book on Stoicism. That was 180 AD and after that shit flies out of the window.

The Roman Empire from Augustus to Trajan (1st century AD) was great. Decay and decline first reared its head in this time and only got worse and worse.

Post-Charlemagne Europe was exactly the constant state of anarchy and chaos you talked about, with the French royalty sometimes afraid of venturing out of Paris for fear of robber barons. So much so that the Pope wanted to declare a Crusades to get the knights and nobles off each other's throat.

The French Empire followed the same cycle. It has its shiniest years in 1700s under Louis 14th and Napoleon. Now look at it...

Im at work so cant be pulling quotes now and dont want to sidetrack the thread, but let's take this offline over a drink. I'll send you a PM.

[jasond]

Read "Sex and Culture", by Joseph Unwin. A survey of many ancient civilizations including Rome. Best book on the topic...should be available in pdf via google.

[Hell_Is_Like_Newark]

The Roman writers at the time wrote about how men refused to marry an raise families. A certain emperor (I think it was Augustus) instituted financial penalties for those Roman men (citizens) who did not marry. Emperor Vespasian went as far as offering cash incentives to get the Romans to have more children. Vespasian was alarmed that the Romans were being replaced by immigrant populations (sound familiar?).

This is an excellent book on the decline and fall of Rome. Its theme is about how the loss of technology, trade, and security (the author wraps it all up under 'comfort') affected the (former) empire.

https://www.amazon.com/Fall-Rome-End-Civ...ll+of+rome

[Kid Twist]

Sir John Glubb, the Fall of Empires

Short, fascinating, very obvious looking back at history. You can get it on .pdf easily for free on the net.

[RIslander]

(05-17-2018 10:54 AM)Kid Twist Wrote:  

Sir John Glubb, the Fall of Empires

Short, fascinating, very obvious looking back at history. You can get it on .pdf easily for free on the net.

I second this. One of the best easy reads available. For the record though its "The Fate of Empires" not fall.

[Truth Tiger]

I'd send them to The New Modern Man blog by our own Relampago Furioso. His essays are excellent, especially on Oswald Spengler's 'The Decline of the West.' Very relevant to red-pilling your friends.

https://relampagofurioso.com/spenglers-c...ion-model/

[James Bond Next level]

(05-16-2018 11:48 AM)Hell_Is_Like_Newark Wrote:  

The Roman writers at the time wrote about how men refused to marry an raise families. A certain emperor (I think it was Augustus) instituted financial penalties for those Roman men (citizens) who did not marry. Emperor Vespasian went as far as offering cash incentives to get the Romans to have more children. Vespasian was alarmed that the Romans were being replaced by immigrant populations (sound familiar?).

This is an excellent book on the decline and fall of Rome. Its theme is about how the loss of technology, trade, and security (the author wraps it all up under 'comfort') affected the (former) empire.

https://www.amazon.com/Fall-Rome-End-Civ...ll+of+rome

Bought it and read 20% so far : great work! No mention on the moral decay of women so far (except if you count the rape of nuns by vandals) but a very red pill book. It's clear the author uses it as a pretext to raise the alarm for our society and show what kind of horrors we can expect. Another interesting fact is the beginning of the book: He highlights the official policies nowadays in the History community to call "peaceful transformation" the violent end of the roman empire. Globalists at work I guess...

[Dalaran1991]

(05-17-2018 10:54 AM)Kid Twist Wrote:  

Sir John Glubb, the Fall of Empires

Short, fascinating, very obvious looking back at history. You can get it on .pdf easily for free on the net.

Done and done, actually the context was that, I recommended them to read John Gubb's, they got mind blown about how accurate it is (immigration, religion, prosperity leads to decadence, bread and circus, gladitorial game (modern rock star) etc.) but it starts getting too political. I tried to stay away from that these days. We're living at exactly just before the Crisis of the 3rd century Roman equivalent.

I wanted to focus on the aspect of women to let them know that it's just their nature, that this is nothing new. It's historical and in a sense, inevitable as the "European empire" reach a certain degree of prosperity. I personally find that life is much more enjoyable once you accept things the way they are, maybe my buddies would think the same.

Not so much to red-pill them but so that they stop bitching around Look on the bright side, it has never been easier to bed sluts, both now and during the fall of Rome.

[xmlenigma]

Adding all this to my To Do List.

(05-16-2018 11:42 AM)jasond Wrote:  

Read "Sex and Culture", by Joseph Unwin. A survey of many ancient civilizations including Rome. Best book on the topic...should be available in pdf via google.

(05-16-2018 11:48 AM)Hell_Is_Like_Newark Wrote:  

The Roman writers at the time wrote about how men refused to marry an raise families. A certain emperor (I think it was Augustus) instituted financial penalties for those Roman men (citizens) who did not marry. Emperor Vespasian went as far as offering cash incentives to get the Romans to have more children. Vespasian was alarmed that the Romans were being replaced by immigrant populations (sound familiar?).

This is an excellent book on the decline and fall of Rome. Its theme is about how the loss of technology, trade, and security (the author wraps it all up under 'comfort') affected the (former) empire.

https://www.amazon.com/Fall-Rome-End-Civ...ll+of+rome

(05-17-2018 10:54 AM)Kid Twist Wrote:  

Sir John Glubb, the Fall of Empires

Short, fascinating, very obvious looking back at history. You can get it on .pdf easily for free on the net.

(05-17-2018 01:10 PM)RIslander Wrote:  

(05-17-2018 10:54 AM)Kid Twist Wrote:  

Sir John Glubb, the Fall of Empires

Short, fascinating, very obvious looking back at history. You can get it on .pdf easily for free on the net.

I second this. One of the best easy reads available. For the record though its "The Fate of Empires" not fall.

(05-17-2018 02:14 PM)Truth Tiger Wrote:  

I'd send them to The New Modern Man blog by our own Relampago Furioso. His essays are excellent, especially on Oswald Spengler's 'The Decline of the West.' Very relevant to red-pilling your friends.

https://relampagofurioso.com/spenglers-c...ion-model/

(05-22-2018 08:43 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

(05-17-2018 10:54 AM)Kid Twist Wrote:  

Sir John Glubb, the Fall of Empires

Short, fascinating, very obvious looking back at history. You can get it on .pdf easily for free on the net.

Done and done, actually the context was that, I recommended them to read John Gubb's, they got mind blown about how accurate it is (immigration, religion, prosperity leads to decadence, bread and circus, gladitorial game (modern rock star) etc.) but it starts getting too political. I tried to stay away from that these days. We're living at exactly just before the Crisis of the 3rd century Roman equivalent.

I wanted to focus on the aspect of women to let them know that it's just their nature, that this is nothing new. It's historical and in a sense, inevitable as the "European empire" reach a certain degree of prosperity. I personally find that life is much more enjoyable once you accept things the way they are, maybe my buddies would think the same.

Not so much to red-pill them but so that they stop bitching around Look on the bright side, it has never been easier to bed sluts, both now and during the fall of Rome.