[Fortis]

(08-06-2017 11:19 AM)Suits Wrote:  

(08-06-2017 11:14 AM)Fortis Wrote:  

Think about it: she came out to my side of town in high heels, a dress and brought her best winning smile. Why would I not pay for that?

Beta.

That's Masturbeta to you.

[Suits]

(08-06-2017 11:29 AM)Fortis Wrote:  

(08-06-2017 11:19 AM)Suits Wrote:  

(08-06-2017 11:14 AM)Fortis Wrote:  

Think about it: she came out to my side of town in high heels, a dress and brought her best winning smile. Why would I not pay for that?

Beta.

That's Masturbeta to you.

Do you pay for appetizers too?

[bruce_almighty]

(08-06-2017 11:24 AM)Dantes Wrote:  

Yes, pay the bill or don't pay the bill. Asking for a small contribution for a bill seems petty. This all would have been avoided if you just paid the bill in full and you might have been posting about smashing a hot chick instead.

This scenario also illustrates the importance of remaining unreactive towards the behavior of women. In theory you were holding your Frame against her shit test. But your frame was predicated on a weak principle. Pick your battles. This wasn't one worth engaging in.

This is some tough love but I appreciate you posting about this scenario.

Never knew it seems petty. I actually thought that this is the norm and the best approach.
It seems as if I have nothing to lose from paying the whole bill including the tip and I won't come across as less or more beta, so what the heck, I'll just do it.

[Vaun]

(08-06-2017 11:34 AM)Suits Wrote:  

(08-06-2017 11:29 AM)Fortis Wrote:  

(08-06-2017 11:19 AM)Suits Wrote:  

(08-06-2017 11:14 AM)Fortis Wrote:  

Think about it: she came out to my side of town in high heels, a dress and brought her best winning smile. Why would I not pay for that?

Beta.

That's Masturbeta to you.

Do you pay for appetizers too?

yes but I usually end up making breakfast.

[Vaun]

(08-06-2017 11:47 AM)bruce_almighty Wrote:  

(08-06-2017 11:24 AM)Dantes Wrote:  

Yes, pay the bill or don't pay the bill. Asking for a small contribution for a bill seems petty. This all would have been avoided if you just paid the bill in full and you might have been posting about smashing a hot chick instead.

This scenario also illustrates the importance of remaining unreactive towards the behavior of women. In theory you were holding your Frame against her shit test. But your frame was predicated on a weak principle. Pick your battles. This wasn't one worth engaging in.

This is some tough love but I appreciate you posting about this scenario.

Never knew it seems petty. I actually thought that this is the norm and the best approach.
It seems as if I have nothing to lose from paying the whole bill including the tip and I won't come across as less or more beta, so what the heck, I'll just do it.

Just set a personal limit for the night, for yourself, for every night out. $40 here in the States is a good limit for a night. Depends on where your at, in TA/NYC/London/Dubai that number may be a little higher. Keep it on the low side, cheap drinks, cheap eats if it comes up(usually because I myself am hungry, and I like how the night is going). No dinners, etc. Ultimately the goal should be $0, while showing her a really good time.

[Suits]

(08-06-2017 11:50 AM)Vaun Wrote:  

(08-06-2017 11:34 AM)Suits Wrote:  

(08-06-2017 11:29 AM)Fortis Wrote:  

(08-06-2017 11:19 AM)Suits Wrote:  

(08-06-2017 11:14 AM)Fortis Wrote:  

Think about it: she came out to my side of town in high heels, a dress and brought her best winning smile. Why would I not pay for that?

Beta.

That's Masturbeta to you.

Do you pay for appetizers too?

yes but I usually end up making breakfast.

Congratulations, you're a Better Beta™.

[Vaun]

(08-06-2017 12:11 PM)Suits Wrote:  

(08-06-2017 11:50 AM)Vaun Wrote:  

(08-06-2017 11:34 AM)Suits Wrote:  

(08-06-2017 11:29 AM)Fortis Wrote:  

(08-06-2017 11:19 AM)Suits Wrote:  

Beta.

That's Masturbeta to you.

Do you pay for appetizers too?

yes but I usually end up making breakfast.

Congratulations, you're a Better Beta™.

love the subtle drop for your ebook

[Suits]

(08-06-2017 12:12 PM)Vaun Wrote:  

(08-06-2017 12:11 PM)Suits Wrote:  

(08-06-2017 11:50 AM)Vaun Wrote:  

(08-06-2017 11:34 AM)Suits Wrote:  

(08-06-2017 11:29 AM)Fortis Wrote:  

That's Masturbeta to you.

Do you pay for appetizers too?

yes but I usually end up making breakfast.

Congratulations, you're a Better Beta™.

love the subtle drop for your ebook

What ebook?

[h3ltrsk3ltr]

(08-06-2017 11:12 AM)bruce_almighty Wrote:  

(08-06-2017 11:03 AM)Dantes Wrote:  

You reasoned your way out of a potential bang with a hot girl because you held on to some petty idea. You should have just paid the full bill unless she genuinely insisted on contributing. If you wanted to safeguard against being seen as a provider, you could have said, "dinner is on me tonight, just pick up the next round".

Driving out of your way is a lot more investment than paying a small tip. She might be a bitch but she was calling you out for not being congruent.

Quibbling over small amounts of money is a turnoff for any high value woman.

Are you saying I should have just paid the whole bill without offering her to get the tip? I obviously don't give the slightest fuck about paying the whole thing and when she asked me about it I just went along with my default approach. What annoyed me was her calling me out on it. I will sure pay the whole bill next time.

I never cared whether or not she's gonna pay her end. Just the fact that she had the nerves to call me out on it after asking me... makes her a real cunt.

I get the sense you're pissed that she still shit tested you, and made a scene after you rocked the whole evening up to that point. It's disrespectful to men but women don't see it like that.

I have been realizing lately that letting that get under my skin won't solve that problem and trying to correct her will never work against the almighty hamster in her head.

I think passing that shit test requires you to rise above it rather than trying to defeat it. It's like the only way to win that game is not to play.

Other than that, I'm not really sure how to get past being angry about this stuff other than to give it time and keep playing.

"pussy's only pussy and I get it when I need it" - drake

[DarkTriad]

As a practical matter, if you've got a great first date venu on "lockdown", risking it by having having cheap girls possibly leave lousy tips isn't a good risk.

[RatInTheWoods]

I think you fucked up the bang over a few bucks and a shitty attitude.

The first date should be light, fun and not serious.

Throwing a few bucks at it is not the end of the world, she shaved her legs, pussy and spent an hour getting ready, and risked death meeting a possible serial killer.

Leat you can do is pay the fucking tip bro.

[Off The Reservation]

(08-06-2017 05:24 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  

I think you fucked up the bang over a few bucks and a shitty attitude.

The first date should be light, fun and not serious.

Throwing a few bucks at it is not the end of the world, she shaved her legs, pussy and spent an hour getting ready, and risked death meeting a possible serial killer.

Leat you can do is pay the fucking tip bro.

I think you hit on something here about the shitty attitude.

[birthday cat]

Great thread. It shows how there is such a small margin for error with very attractive women.

I think he should have paid for everything but him casually saying that she could get the tip shouldn't have been anything more than the most minor of problems. But it was a trap. It was a shit test.

With this girl he is going to have to deal with this type of test eventually so it makes little difference if he paid the tip or not. If he paid the tip then she is going to come up with a similar test within an hour.

Leonard knows what's happening...

(08-06-2017 09:43 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

I was referring to her yackityyacking at him afterward about it and him not backing down endlessly in the hope of getting laid.

It obviously sent her hamster spinning because she tried to lure him back in.

And BB has the answer...

(08-06-2017 09:00 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

...

(08-06-2017 04:44 AM)bruce_almighty Wrote:  

We went on to proceed with my usual next phase of the date routine where I take her to the swing in the garden to make out.
On the way there she started asking why I offered her to pay the tip.
I said that that's the best formula I've found in my experience. I don't mind paying the tip and I don't mind not paying it. But this way a girl feels like I didn't buy her yet I was still a gentleman.

She started giving me loads of shit about how a man should pay everything on first dates. How the fact that I picked her up from the house gave me "extra points", and she wants to help me succeed with my dating life.

At this point I stopped walking and called her out:

"You are 25. I'm 30. I know what works for me".

This was annoying behavior on her part, even taking cultural differences into consideration, and you had a right, possibly even an obligation, to your initial reaction. That being said, it seems like you could have left the tension here, but then you drug it out and let it linger...That's where I see the real pettiness appearing.

Quote:

We carried on to the swing but by then the atmosphere was ruined. She asked me if her remarks had shut me down and I told her she was rude saying all that.

She was trying to make amends here. You can already see how she's insecure about her remarks and is subconsciously pointing the finger at herself.

You should have just shrugged it off and changed the topic at this point. And then gone on with your usual seduction style. I imagine the tension would have quickly passed.

Don't get me wrong - I'm sure we've all made the mistake of taking a woman's antics too personally. I know I have. But there's no real reason here to prove how right you were. Reiterating that she was rude was just your way of pouting about her behavior and dragging it out until she made a big enough gesture to appease you.

That was a mistake. She knows you think she was being rude - she seems to have indirectly admitted it herself already.

If you weren't ready to let the interaction move past this awkward discussion, even with her attempts to do so, why were you even still hanging out with her at this point?

What have you done to move through the situation or move past it? Not only are you offended, but you're not taking the lead to untie this tangle you've gotten in, based on your description. She's behaved childishly, but there's no leadership here on your part either. It seems like you're just waiting for the situation to unravel itself so you can go and and shoot for the bang.

At this point, you should be exiting or letting it go. Rationally "talking it out" will lead nowhere.

Quote:

She partially apologized but kept holding frame saying she's still behind what she said.

She's trying to make amends again, but you're expecting a male apology rather than a female one.

As we all know, women are not men.

Sometimes a partial apology is all you're going to get out of her, especially while emotions are still running high. But any kind of apology on a woman's part generally means she knows she fucked up, and even if she doesn't think it, the fact that she's willing to take on blame is points in her favor, as far as I'm concerned.

...

I know what works for me in situations like this although it may or may not work for others. One of my strengths is being funny and quick-witted.

I would lose my frame with her comment about "extra points". I hate that kind of talk so I would shake my head and laugh. I couldn't act calmly so I've got to control my reaction as best as I can and laughter is probably the best way.

I might say something like "Extra Points??? Are we on a date or am I playing a video game?.....How many extra points do I get if I kill all the ghosts and goblins?.....Is there a bonus round?"

Either I'm going to make her laugh or she is going to hate me because I'm not capable of listening to something like "extra points". I'm not saying that I'm some kind of super alpha guy but I know my temperament and I can only handle so much. So she will break my frame, I'll do the best I can with laughter and jokes, and we'll see what happens.

I would make jokes like "You're a cute girl, you must have guys trying to pay for all your stuff, maybe on the next date I can buy you a car.....but can you cover that sales tax?.....better yet, I'll buy you a house.....but can you cover the realtor's commission?" (I would only use the word "cute" if she is much more than cute. OP said she is an 8 and "cute" is a slight downgrade for an 8.)

I'm not saying this is the best way to handle it but it's the best way for my personality.

[Repo]

Growing up from a lower class family, it was a shocker to me that many upper class families consider splitting any type of bar or restaurant bill as tacky.

Now when dealing with upper class women I pay the entire thing first date like its nothing. She should offer to pay as a gesture (and I will judge her internally if she doesn't), I will turn her offer down once, but accept if she insists again and seems serious.

The next date should be on her, as she should be the one contacting you to initiate this date if you haven't banged yet. If she doesn't pay and you haven't banged by then, I next her.

Funny thing is women from poorer classes are the ones who will insist to pay their way to show their independence I guess, or whatever hamster bullshit is going on through their mind. Anyway, treat them differently depending on what their background is which you should have an understanding of the first date. This isn't a one size fits all.

[crdr]

(08-06-2017 06:41 PM)Repo Wrote:  

Growing up from a lower class family, it was a shocker to me that many upper class families consider splitting any type of bar or restaurant bill as tacky.

Now when dealing with upper class women I pay the entire thing first date like its nothing. She should offer to pay as a gesture (and I will judge her internally if she doesn't), I will turn her offer down once, but accept if she insists again and seems serious.

The next date should be on her, as she should be the one contacting you to initiate this date if you haven't banged yet. If she doesn't pay and you haven't banged by then, I next her.

Funny thing is women from poorer classes are the ones who will insist to pay their way to show their independence I guess, or whatever hamster bullshit is going on through their mind. Anyway, treat them differently depending on what their background is which you should have an understanding of the first date. This isn't a one size fits all.

You are 100% right.

[Leonard D Neubache]

Hindsight is 20/20 but if you play well at humour-game then the moment she pays the tip tell her "don't get any fresh ideas about where this date is going just because you've laid out some cash."

[Nascimento]

You don't want to be taken advantage of which is logical. But by ensuring the dates are always on your terms and proper (no restaurants or expensive places before a bang), you shouldn't have to worry about this.

Always look after the bill on the first dates. If you're worried about the expense you're doing it wrong (either you need a better budget or you're being inefficient with your dates).

Whenever a girl asks if she can pay or if you want her to, just tell her she can contribute next time. It's that easy.

You're doing it especially right if they start bringing food or drinks to your place for following dates.

[RatInTheWoods]

Also game 101 reminds us, never get butt-hurt at a shit test, even if you pass it (as OP did)

Amused mastery is the way forward - make a joke, seem unaffected, move on, change the subject, keep escalating.

Getting moody, brooding and appearing upset at her test will dry the panties in an instant.

Would something a child says ruin your night?

[jackflag]

Lots of good advice in this thread. And agreed on the cultural angle -- I give her some extra slack that I wouldn't give a western girl. I fully endorse the OP calling this girl back and going for the bang. She seems pleasant and decently self-aware.

But here's the thing. I don't have a problem with her thinking men should pay for the first date. I don't necessarily agree, but its not a radical concept. She keeps quiet while I pay the full bill? I'm cool with it. She gets secretly disappointed by paying the tip, but doesn't let it ruin our fun and moves past it? I'm cool with it.

What I do have a problem with, is her pulling that manipulative shit test asking if she should help. To me that reveals a much greater character flaw than the princess syndrome that compels her to believe men should pay for the first date. With this knowledge, there is essentially nothing she can say that the OP can take at face value. Nothing. Not about money, not about family, not even about a fucking Netflix selection.

And taking this relationship to the furthest possible extrapolation, its something that will persist and probably grow stronger the longer they date-slash-get married and have babies.

I'm aware most women shit test periodically throughout a relationship. I've been with some. But most didn't immediately perform a nuclear shit test and then instantly berate me for failing. And then throw a lecture on proper dating etiquette in for good measure. There are lots of women who would think absolutely nothing of contributing a measly tip to the dinner tab. Or genuinely, graciously, and un-dramatically appreciating the OP picking it all up and deciding to pay him back later... in more ways than one.

Something about the way she went about this rubs me the wrong way in a fashion other shit-tests haven't. Just so gratuitous and self-sabotaging. Over 2 dollars and fifty fucking cents. By all accounts the date was going good up until then. This girl feeling the need to derail the entire night's vibe to personally re-program his wires is a GIGANTIC red flag.

I totally understand the viewpoints of the other guys in this thread. But having a girl manipulate me, berate me for blowing a landmine that was entirely unnecessary to set, then lecture me on my dating habits, when I was simply trying to do something nice for her, isn't something I think I'd be able to look past long-term. It would color every interaction I had with her going forward. That's an exhausting prospect. No way I'm considering her relationship material.

Definitely fuck the shit out of her though. That's all day.

[bruce_almighty]

Update: whatsapped her, offered her a second date.
she replied after a day (demonstrating she'd given it thought) and said it doesn't feel like the right thing for her to do.

I gave it a shot.
Neither of us considered the other for a relationship as we're both gonna travel soon and go our separate ways.

[Noir]

Easy one.

"Don't be a such a Jew"

NEXT.

[Sonoma]

A lot of people here are bashing the 2.50, but I don't think it's a bad idea at all. I've told girls to pay for the whole thing before and then promised, "I'll get the next one."

If a girl insists that a man should pay for everything, I'd tell her pretty quick that I'm not doing anything that costs money until I'm sure she's worth it.

Being petty and abrasive will definitely lose you dates, but it's not going to lose you dates with enjoyable women. It's not really about the 2.50, it's about the entitlement and the type of women I want to spend my time with

[Leonard D Neubache]

(08-07-2017 07:38 AM)Sonoma Wrote:  

A lot of people here are bashing the 2.50, but I don't think it's a bad idea at all. I've told girls to pay for the whole thing before and then promised, "I'll get the next one."

Quote:

If a girl insists that a man should pay for everything, I'd tell her pretty quick that I'm not doing anything that costs money until I'm sure she's worth it.

Quote:

Being petty and abrasive will definitely lose you dates, but it's not going to lose you dates with enjoyable women. It's not really about the 2.50, it's about the entitlement and the type of women I want to spend my time with

In Canada? I'm genuinely curious. How's 'Scrooge McDuck game' working out for you?

[crdr]

(08-07-2017 09:13 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

(08-07-2017 07:38 AM)Sonoma Wrote:  

A lot of people here are bashing the 2.50, but I don't think it's a bad idea at all. I've told girls to pay for the whole thing before and then promised, "I'll get the next one."

Quote:

If a girl insists that a man should pay for everything, I'd tell her pretty quick that I'm not doing anything that costs money until I'm sure she's worth it.

Quote:

Being petty and abrasive will definitely lose you dates, but it's not going to lose you dates with enjoyable women. It's not really about the 2.50, it's about the entitlement and the type of women I want to spend my time with

In Canada? I'm genuinely curious. How's 'Scrooge McDuck game' working out for you?

Hey man, leave Canada outta this.
I be overtipping with these bitches on Tequila and Taco dates.
Not only is it scientifically proven that the more you give the more you receive.
It's even in the Bible never to have dinner with a man who is stingy and cheap.

#TipLyfe

[PapayaTapper]

OP... "Just the tip" ....youre doing it wrong.