[Philosopher]

Greetings Gentlemen,

Hope you are all having a productive weekend. Wanted to share my thoughts regarding my new roommate and the mistakes he is making with his girlfriend. He calls/skyping her every night, tells her every minute detail about his life, tells her where he will be, asks her for permission about when would be a good time to call, and tells her that he loves her. It just pains me to listen to it and remain on the sidelines. I realize that I have no business helping him and he has not asked me for advice on his relationship (although he has asked me for advice on work related topics) yet it pains me to see him make mistakes that I would have made 5 years ago.

Keep remembering Aaron Clarey's opinion that giving advice is pointless unless the other person pays a price for it. However, all of Roosh's guides were written because it pained him to see other men doing game wrong. Same with me, it pains me to see another man doing things wrong and my conscience bothers me to intervene and slap some sense into him.

On one hand I realize that he will only learn by making his own mistakes and learning from the pain he will feel, on the other hand, giving him some red pill advice would at least plant some seeds in his brain and help him to learn faster even if he is not ready to accept them now. What would you do?

[DarkTriad]

If you do, make it very understated and only mention it once. Maybe put in the story of something that happened to a friend. It absolutely won't help him this time around, it will just give him food for thought after he crashes and burns.

[Jean Valjean]

I'm thinking it's best to wait till he complains about some problem in his relationship. Then you can ask, "Do you want my honest opinion?"

I guess on the one hand, after he goes red pill someday, he might complain, "Why didn't you tell me when you first realized I was doing something wrong?" Then you can say something like, "I was waiting to see if the strategy you were applying was going to work, before I said anything."

After all, the proper game to use can vary from chick to chick. Sometimes it's possible to overgame.

Thing is too, sometimes guys can be told what the right approach is, and maybe even believe it would work, but still refuse to do it. I complained to a friend once about my girlfriend's behavior, and he said, "Do you want my advice? PLAY HARD TO GET. That has always worked for me." But I refused to apply the advice, because I thought, "I want to be myself and keep it real, rather than act a certain way that doesn't reflect my true feelings, just because it's going to get my girlfriend to stop treating me like shit."

Other times, my girlfriend would scream obscenities at me and then tell me exactly what I needed to do to pass the shit test: "If you would just say 'Fuck you' to me once, it would make our relationship ten times better." I refused to do it, because I thought, "What's the point; why do I need to tell her that, when she could just stop that behavior on her own?"

It's almost like, guys have to go through their period of being a "nice guy" just to experience the purity, beauty, and idealism of treating a girl like she's a special princess to be worshipped. They have that romantic streak by default because while they were growing up, whenever they did something sweet for a woman, they were complimented as being a good boy. To go red pill, you have to get away from that conditioning; but what excuse do you have to get away from it, till some grievous wrong has been done to you? To go red pill is to become the bad guy, the villain. What will strengthen your resolve to do that, unless you have reason for rage and indignation?

There are those who start out as psychopaths, and their life journey is toward behaving like a decent person. Yet at core, the thinking and behavior of a psychopath is very familiar to them, so they will always have a full understanding of what it is like to be and act as a psychopath. Then there are those who start out as nice guys, and their journey is toward learning to think and behave like a psychopath, as they get burnt out with being conscientious.

After you get mistreated badly enough (by girls and by society), and you come to understand the true dynamics behind what was going on, then you may finally reach a point where you're not only willing to BEHAVE like an asshole toward women, you're willing to BECOME an asshole toward them! THAT'S when the red pill has truly been ingested and taken effect in the proper way. So maybe what you were saying is correct, that it takes certain experiences to really push a guy in that direction.

Another question is, Does this guy have any confidence in his options? If he has only one option (i.e. this one chick), then that's inevitably going to push him in the direction of beta supplication.

[Travesty]

(05-13-2017 06:35 PM)Philosopher Wrote:  

Greetings Gentlemen,

Hope you are all having a productive weekend. Wanted to share my thoughts regarding my new roommate and the mistakes he is making with his girlfriend. He calls/skyping her every night, tells her every minute detail about his life, tells her where he will be, asks her for permission about when would be a good time to call, and tells her that he loves her. It just pains me to listen to it and remain on the sidelines. I realize that I have no business helping him and he has not asked me for advice on his relationship (although he has asked me for advice on work related topics) yet it pains me to see him make mistakes that I would have made 5 years ago.

Keep remembering Aaron Clarey's opinion that giving advice is pointless unless the other person pays a price for it. However, all of Roosh's guides were written because it pained him to see other men doing game wrong. Same with me, it pains me to see another man doing things wrong and my conscience bothers me to intervene and slap some sense into him.

On one hand I realize that he will only learn by making his own mistakes and learning from the pain he will feel, on the other hand, giving him some red pill advice would at least plant some seeds in his brain and help him to learn faster even if he is not ready to accept them now. What would you do?

Link him to an ROK article or forum thread and say my friend sent this to me, what do you think about it?

[Sensei Creation]

(05-13-2017 06:35 PM)Philosopher Wrote:  

He calls/skyping her every night, tells her every minute detail about his life and where he will be, asks her for permission about when would be a good time to call, and tells her that he loves her.

Just to play devils advocate. None of those things are really that beta. If the man is in a committed long term relationship those would be the kind of things you would expect.

I think a lot guys think that being red pill automatically means that you have to be a jerk and a phycopath to woman because this is what they enjoy.

That's not necessarily true.

There is a balance to this. Being too red pill can sometimes have the same effect towards a woman as being too bluepill.

A guy can love his girlfriend and still be red pill enough to be able to keep her hooked and not get hurt.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

I need more information on the dynamic of the relationship.

Is she as into him as he seems to be into her ?

Does he call her out on her bullshit when she acts up ?

If so, nothing to worry about.

[younggun]

(05-13-2017 06:35 PM)Philosopher Wrote:  

Greetings Gentlemen,

Hope you are all having a productive weekend. Wanted to share my thoughts regarding my new roommate and the mistakes he is making with his girlfriend. He calls/skyping her every night, tells her every minute detail about his life, tells her where he will be, asks her for permission about when would be a good time to call, and tells her that he loves her. It just pains me to listen to it and remain on the sidelines. I realize that I have no business helping him and he has not asked me for advice on his relationship (although he has asked me for advice on work related topics) yet it pains me to see him make mistakes that I would have made 5 years ago.

Keep remembering Aaron Clarey's opinion that giving advice is pointless unless the other person pays a price for it. However, all of Roosh's guides were written because it pained him to see other men doing game wrong. Same with me, it pains me to see another man doing things wrong and my conscience bothers me to intervene and slap some sense into him.

On one hand I realize that he will only learn by making his own mistakes and learning from the pain he will feel, on the other hand, giving him some red pill advice would at least plant some seeds in his brain and help him to learn faster even if he is not ready to accept them now. What would you do?

Honestly from the sounds of it he isn't a close enough friend, and giving a large dose of red pill right off the bat will probably cause an awkward living situation.

Live by example. If he's your roommate and he sees how you handle the women in your life, maybe he'll want to make a change. Or maybe he'll think you're an asshole and won't understand how you manage to get laid. Either way, there's no point dropping red pill knowledge if he doesn't believe it's red pill wisdom.

[Leonard D Neubache]

If his girl is smoking hot and drains his balls on the reg then his MO with her is not really an issue. That is to say, if he's punching at-or-above his weight then there's no reason to harsh his buzz.

If he's playing cutesy just to get starfish sex once a fortnight from little miss piggy then that's a whole other thing.

In that case you would be wise to tell him "I dunno... I just think a guy like you could be doing a lot better... There are girls out there that will treat you like you're Conan the fucking Barbarian if you play your cards right. Just a thought..."

Of course, you gotta be able to practice what you preach. If you're not demonstrating that you're capable of pulling a train of fine bitches then he's not exactly going to jump ship on miss piggy in a hurry.

[Dream Medicine]

(05-13-2017 06:35 PM)Philosopher Wrote:  

Keep remembering Aaron Clarey's opinion that giving advice is pointless unless the other person pays a price for it... I realize that he will only learn by making his own mistakes and learning from the pain he will feel

It is great that you're aware of these concepts of behaviour change and I'm glad you want to help this guy. Having good vibes at home is important in maintaining your mental health. I also understand that it can be hard to hear this in your own house -- at least when you hear it from a colleague or acquaintance you can let them deal with it in their own time and space if they don't want any help.

Some reading

I previously wrote here on the topic of helping out mates with game or relationship advice. I suggest you read that now and then come back here to read the rest of my post below.

This case

There are a few differences between this situation and the one outlined in that link, notably:

(05-13-2017 06:35 PM)Philosopher Wrote:  

Wanted to share my thoughts regarding my new roommate...

...he has not asked me for advice on his relationship (although he has asked me for advice on work related topics)

I suggest you tread carefully or risk the possibility of fostering resentment or worse in close quarters. Consider the following...

General principles

(1) People react defensively when given advice they didn't ask for; they need to seek help before they can accept it.
(2) Men are highly defensive about their abilities and success with women, no matter their actual skill and experience.
(3) Men who don't know you well are more likely to resist your advice on women.
(4) Someone who is heavily invested in a relationship will need a strong motivator to spark the desire for change.
(5) Even if someone knows of a problem, it does not mean they will take action. What's more - even if someone asks for your advice, it does not mean they will take action.

(6) In addition, having a strong desire to enlighten other blokes by sharing pickup tips or exposing the supposed "truth" about women is common in men who are new to the game. It typically doesn't last long because such preaching to the initiated and unmotivated is typically doomed to fail. As explained in my intro, I too went through this phase. I hope you and others can learn from my experience (of learning the hard way).

After all, the first rule of fight club is the first rule for a number of very good reasons.



(7) Last, you didn't write about your background which would be helpful for the readership to know when providing you with direction.

With this in mind, Younggun and LDN make good points in saying 'live by example'. While I don't know your level of game or current relationship situation, I think it is important that you are honest with yourself. Before offering your own two cents, it would be helpful to consider asking yourself some questions like, "To what extent am I getting enough girls, and at a level of quality, that I am genuinely happy with?", or "To what extent am I happy in my current relationship?", and "If I help him to move on, am I willing and able to help him meet new women?"

Although demonstrating competence is not always required when giving advice, it goes a long way in establishing credibility and could be key to the success of your bro-to-bro help. Action speaks louder than words in so many ways.

Actionable tips: a summary

(A.) Best bet would be to hold off on any advice for now because he is not asking for it; he is not ready to swallow the red pill. Remember, a mind cannot be opened by external force.

That said, you could ask some broad, measured questions to test the waters when the time is right. Use reflective listening to show genuine interest, empathy and, where appropriate, to softly highlight his internal conflicts through more specific questioning.

(B.) If you do choose to give him some pointers, ensure you start small, and frame it gently, with more emphasis on "something to think about" rather than "you should do this". As DarkTriad noted, using third-party stories can be helpful. Also, do not argue if he resists.

(C.) Show, don't tell; lead by example.

(D.) Try your best to be patient, very patient. Serious change takes serious time.



Side note

This topic will always be relevant and has previously been discussed here, in addition to the link above, e.g: 'Helping Friends Who Have No Game Is A Bad Idea' by Tuthmosis, and 'Trying To Show My Friend the Truth'. In the future I suggest you do a search to find a related thread to post in, rather than starting a new one.

All the best.

[Rhyme or Reason]

No, don't do it. I admit this is a lesson I've had to learn over and over again. I always seem to forget. The amount of red pills to drop on a guy should be inversely proportional to the potential risk of backlash. Given the fact you're his room mate, I'd say that there's plenty of ways this could turn out bad for you.

[Philosopher]

Quote:

Is she as into him as he seems to be into her ?

No, she seems to be little bit bored, run out of things to say, and asks him often why he won't go to bed already.

Quote:

Does he call her out on her bullshit when she acts up ?

Yes, he is pretty good at this, always negging her with jokes and making fun of her if she gets judgmental. Have not heard her yell. They seem to have a pretty positive vibe.

[Philosopher]

(05-14-2017 08:53 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

If his girl is smoking hot and drains his balls on the reg then his MO with her is not really an issue. That is to say, if he's punching at-or-above his weight then there's no reason to harsh his buzz.

If he's playing cutesy just to get starfish sex once a fortnight from little miss piggy then that's a whole other thing.

In that case you would be wise to tell him "I dunno... I just think a guy like you could be doing a lot better... There are girls out there that will treat you like you're Conan the fucking Barbarian if you play your cards right. Just a thought..."

Of course, you gotta be able to practice what you preach. If you're not demonstrating that you're capable of pulling a train of fine bitches then he's not exactly going to jump ship on miss piggy in a hurry.

She is definitely a respectable 7-8. Punching slightly above his weight.

[Philosopher]

Quote:

I previously wrote here on the topic of helping out mates with game or relationship advice. I suggest you read that now and then come back here to read the rest of my post below.

Would love to read you post, Unfortunately, your link above does not open it. Could you possibly repost what you wrote in the link.

I tried searching for this topic prior to posting it but could not find it. How can I search better?

Very good Matrix comparison - gave me some food for thought.

A little bit of my background - I am what you could say a third-culture person as I was born in Soviet Union but grew up in the States as I moved there at a young age. I have had several long-term relationships as well as short term (mostly in Russia)but was never fulfilled prior to discovering Roosh and Game. I did some of David Deangelo's stuff prior but cocky and funny only got me so far. Being doing Daygame since 2013 with great success in Eastern Europe and Moderate success in Europe and slim picking in the States. My current training has left me only weekends to pursue game, doing a minimum of one approach per day, many phone numbers, no bangs since New Year though.

[Rawmeo]

Why not - while I wouldn't push it hard, I'd plant the seeds and help him grow.

[Dream Medicine]

Philosopher,

(05-22-2017 07:18 PM)Philosopher Wrote:  

Very good Matrix comparison - gave me some food for thought.

It is good to see you're considering the feedback with an open mind.

Whenever you are thinking about trying to school your flatmate or anyone else on game, I urge you to re-read the above seven general principles before you say your thoughts out loud and honestly ask yourself if it's likely to actually benefit anyone.

(Side note on a spelling error: I wrote "such preaching to the initiated and unmotivated is typically doomed to fail", however I meant to write "the uninitiated". By this I mean those men who haven't found pickup and become involved on their own; an outsider to the community.)

(05-22-2017 07:18 PM)Philosopher Wrote:  

Would love to read you post, Unfortunately, your link above does not open it. Could you possibly repost what you wrote in the link.

Unsure why it doesn't work for you. Try this link to the OP 'When people whom you know won't take your advice ask for it'.

(05-22-2017 07:18 PM)Philosopher Wrote:  

I tried searching for this topic prior to posting it but could not find it. How can I search better?

In this case I found the threads linked at the end of my post by using similar phrases e.g. "help friend with game" in the 'Search (Via Google)' option.

(05-22-2017 07:18 PM)Philosopher Wrote:  

A little bit of my background...

(05-22-2017 07:05 PM)Philosopher Wrote:  

She is definitely a respectable 7-8. Punching slightly above his weight.

This info helps and reinforces of the importance of considering principle #7 (before giving advice, ask yourself if you are truly qualified and can walk the walk).

Just remember that self-mastery requires long-term discipline, so try not to be too harsh on yourself when you don't get the results you wanted straight away.

Lastly, some things can unnecessarily hold you back from achieving your potential in the game, such as having no wingmen. I highly recommend you consider reaching out to fellow RVF members in your local area - see here for more on the value of such connections: 'How does one deal with a long dry spell?'

All the best.

[PapayaTapper]

It sounds like this is a long distance thing (you mentioned Skype),,correct?

Once she starts missing / accepting calls more frequently you'll know she's grabbed her next branch and the relationship is circling the drain

This seemingly has a high likelihood of ending badly for him.

Thats when he'll be ready to hear advice. Especially if this isn't the first time hes been burned

[Valentine]

Every time I do this I regret it. They never take your advice, it ends up wasting your time and often builds resentment because they feel you're being condescending simply by virtue of being more successful than them in this minor life skill. Lead by example and only when he regularly badgers you for advice then give him the smallest red pills possible.

[Philosopher]

(05-23-2017 02:59 PM)PapayaTapper Wrote:  

It sounds like this is a long distance thing (you mentioned Skype),,correct?

Yes, Skype - he is living two time zones away from her and he cannot leave the compound due to the training that we have.

She has not visited him, and she could not come inside even if she did. She could visit though, it would be a two day trip at least and she could only hang out with him for a few hours on a weekend outside.

While I will be free in two weeks, he will be living there another 3 months. I can definitely see the trainwreck and leaning towards letting it happen as he will need to learn.

[PapayaTapper]

(05-23-2017 06:19 PM)Philosopher Wrote:  

(05-23-2017 02:59 PM)PapayaTapper Wrote:  

It sounds like this is a long distance thing (you mentioned Skype),,correct?

Yes, Skype - he is living two time zones away from her and he cannot leave the compound due to the training that we have.

She has not visited him, and she could not come inside even if she did. She could visit though, it would be a two day trip at least and she could only hang out with him for a few hours on a weekend outside.

While I will be free in two weeks, he will be living there another 3 months. I can definitely see the trainwreck and leaning towards letting it happen as he will need to learn.

Its admirable that you care enough to consider helping him.

But some lessons cant be taught: they can only be learned

[lonewolf1992]

Quote:

In addition, having a strong desire to enlighten other blokes by sharing pickup tips or exposing the supposed "truth" about women is common in men who are new to the game. It typically doesn't last long because such preaching to the initiated and unmotivated is typically doomed to fail. As explained in my intro, I too went through this phase. I hope you and others can learn from my experience (of learning the hard way).

This, I admit I'm new into game and have improved my situation greatly over the course of a year of cleansing my mind, from a lifetime of feminist BS. Tried to share my new acquired knowledge with a friend of mine who was being pussy-whiped by his GF. Useless, he didn't heed my advice, and two months later she had broken up with him because of known women BS these days. I will not ever share the red pill if I have not been asked first.

[Philosopher]

Quote:

This, I admit I'm new into game and have improved my situation greatly over the course of a year of cleansing my mind, from a lifetime of feminist BS. Tried to share my new acquired knowledge with a friend of mine who was being pussy-whiped by his GF. Useless, he didn't heed my advice, and two months later she had broken up with him because of known women BS these days. I will not ever share the red pill if I have not been asked first.

Yes, as much as we feel the brotherhood with other men, especially with those with whom we serve, wisdom has a price that one must pay for and giving advice for free would cheapen it.

[Rhyme or Reason]

(05-26-2017 03:06 PM)Philosopher Wrote:  

Quote:

This, I admit I'm new into game and have improved my situation greatly over the course of a year of cleansing my mind, from a lifetime of feminist BS. Tried to share my new acquired knowledge with a friend of mine who was being pussy-whiped by his GF. Useless, he didn't heed my advice, and two months later she had broken up with him because of known women BS these days. I will not ever share the red pill if I have not been asked first.

Yes, as much as we feel the brotherhood with other men, especially with those with whom we serve, wisdom has a price that one must pay for and giving advice for free would cheapen it.

It's not even that. You can't install Windows 10 on a 1996 DOS computer with 1mb of ram. Just....does not compute.

He has to upgrade his firmware (by way of the long dark tunnel stumbling towards the light) before he can be primed for red pilling.

[Philosopher]

(05-27-2017 12:15 PM)Rhyme or Reason Wrote:  

(05-26-2017 03:06 PM)Philosopher Wrote:  

Quote:

This, I admit I'm new into game and have improved my situation greatly over the course of a year of cleansing my mind, from a lifetime of feminist BS. Tried to share my new acquired knowledge with a friend of mine who was being pussy-whiped by his GF. Useless, he didn't heed my advice, and two months later she had broken up with him because of known women BS these days. I will not ever share the red pill if I have not been asked first.

Yes, as much as we feel the brotherhood with other men, especially with those with whom we serve, wisdom has a price that one must pay for and giving advice for free would cheapen it.

It's not even that. You can't install Windows 10 on a 1996 DOS computer with 1mb of ram. Just....does not compute.

He has to upgrade his firmware (by way of the long dark tunnel stumbling towards the light) before he can be primed for red pilling.

Yes, I was as bad with girls as he was at his age so should not assume that he can get the equivalent of 10 years of experience from a conversation with me rather than following his own path and getting Windows 95)