I don't know, man. You didn't really follow the bro code with that play, in my opinion.
The Gamma Megathread
Been trying to think of historical gammas who actually succeeded as "Secret Kings" of sorts, which would obviously be very dangerous to society. The best example I can think of is Karl Marx:
- Never held down a job
- Raised his children in poverty and filth because his grand ideas always had priority
- Alienated and insulted all his "comrades" unless they bowed down to him and accepted his ideas
- Obsessed with having the one correct interpretation of all of human history
- Spent years and years "proving" that former influences and associates were "wrong"
- Serious health problems but continued to live a shitty lifestyle throughout his life
- His economic and political models have been a complete and utter failure around the world, and even undergird today's most grotesque state formations (e. g., North Korea and Venezuela)
- Nevertheless, his infernal influence continues to be pervasive 130+ years after his death, as a big fuck you from the grave to all normal and decent people
I guess the lesson is to never underestimate the ability of such losers to wreak havoc. Maybe Muhammed is another candidate.
- Never held down a job
- Raised his children in poverty and filth because his grand ideas always had priority
- Alienated and insulted all his "comrades" unless they bowed down to him and accepted his ideas
- Obsessed with having the one correct interpretation of all of human history
- Spent years and years "proving" that former influences and associates were "wrong"
- Serious health problems but continued to live a shitty lifestyle throughout his life
- His economic and political models have been a complete and utter failure around the world, and even undergird today's most grotesque state formations (e. g., North Korea and Venezuela)
- Nevertheless, his infernal influence continues to be pervasive 130+ years after his death, as a big fuck you from the grave to all normal and decent people
I guess the lesson is to never underestimate the ability of such losers to wreak havoc. Maybe Muhammed is another candidate.
Quote: (03-27-2017 02:23 PM)Vill@in Wrote:
Very informative thread. I never was aware of 'gamma' or these type of individuals having a label. And now that I think about it I think my good friend and roommate may be a Gamma.
...
Quote: (03-27-2017 04:29 PM)Akwesi Wrote:
I don't know, man. You didn't really follow the bro code with that play, in my opinion.
Yeah, I don't know if that's gamma behaviour or just a typical jungle-juice driven cave man reaction.
In any case, there's no way you could live with a gamma and not have a few other dire warning signs.
It sounds like Vin just copped a minor dose of ownership of this THOT and didn't like the idea of your dick entering her. In fairness, dudes fucking the same chick can lead to disastrous outcomes. Invariably she's going to claim that one or the other is better in bed and it drives a wedge between them that's hard to get rid of. Hoes have been dividing bros like that since the dawn of time.
Out of curiosity, what did he come up with that was so important to talk about right that second?
The public will judge a man by what he lifts, but those close to him will judge him by what he carries.
Quote: (03-27-2017 05:51 PM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:
Out of curiosity, what did he come up with that was so important to talk about right that second?
Honestly I never asked her when she came to bed. I assume he was making one last plea with her not to sleep with me? I dunno. She still wanted to fuck me either way but at that point that ship had sailed.
"Once you've gotten the lay you have won."- Mufasa
"You Miss 100% of the shots you don't take"- Wayne Gretzky
Quote: (03-27-2017 05:51 PM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:
Yeah, I don't know if that's gamma behaviour or just a typical jungle-juice driven cave man reaction.
Gamma or not, I try to make it a point not to sleep with any girls I think a friend is interested or know a friend has slept with. Sometimes, you just can't know what primal trigger you my switch and what effect it will show up as. If I really had to sleep with a girl a buddy of mine hooked up with, I'd talk to him about it first. Then, if he says he doesn't care, I'll take him at his word and if it causes a problem later, he can't recant that.
I imagine a gamma would find a way to weasel around it, but then at least he revealed his colors and you can make your get away!
I'm lucky that my best friend and I have pretty different tastes in women, so that's not a huge issue in my life.
G
I think this is a real Gamma trait of mine.
What do you do if a lot of the subjects/opinions you have you feel really strongly about, but it's really weird/gamma and so most normies just do not give a fuck. I've always had to learn to be tactful and not burn bridges by outing myself as "weird". However if I try my hardest to act normal I feel I'm hiding a big part of myself. Impulsively I really want to share my strong opinions even though I know logically most people don't care and it would turn them off from me.
What do you do if a lot of the subjects/opinions you have you feel really strongly about, but it's really weird/gamma and so most normies just do not give a fuck. I've always had to learn to be tactful and not burn bridges by outing myself as "weird". However if I try my hardest to act normal I feel I'm hiding a big part of myself. Impulsively I really want to share my strong opinions even though I know logically most people don't care and it would turn them off from me.
Quote: (03-28-2017 03:41 AM)The Catalyst Wrote:
I think this is a real Gamma trait of mine.
What do you do if a lot of the subjects/opinions you have you feel really strongly about, but it's really weird/gamma and so most normies just do not give a fuck. I've always had to learn to be tactful and not burn bridges by outing myself as "weird". However if I try my hardest to act normal I feel I'm hiding a big part of myself. Impulsively I really want to share my strong opinions even though I know logically most people don't care and it would turn them off from me.
Just learn how to question people in a way that makes them use logic to defend their positions. Often this can be done by simply asking, "Why?"
When you do this you're coming off as genuinely curious, and they won't feel attacked. Never volunteer information, if someone is genuinely interested in your opinions they will ask you the same question.
two scoops
two genders
two terms
Quote: (03-28-2017 03:50 AM)NomadofEU Wrote:
Quote: (03-28-2017 03:41 AM)The Catalyst Wrote:
I think this is a real Gamma trait of mine.
What do you do if a lot of the subjects/opinions you have you feel really strongly about, but it's really weird/gamma and so most normies just do not give a fuck. I've always had to learn to be tactful and not burn bridges by outing myself as "weird". However if I try my hardest to act normal I feel I'm hiding a big part of myself. Impulsively I really want to share my strong opinions even though I know logically most people don't care and it would turn them off from me.
Just learn how to question people in a way that makes them use logic to defend their positions. Often this can be done by simply asking, "Why?"
When you do this you're coming off as genuinely curious, and they won't feel attacked. Never volunteer information, if someone is genuinely interested in your opinions they will ask you the same question.
Good advice. I think I instinctually do this in daygame for instance because anything I say often goes over bitches' heads. When I do give my opinion I do it in a carefree "What if" way.
I think the bigger problem for me anyways is social situations in general is when I have something that pops into my head and the current topic people are talking about is boring to me and I'm dying to share what I think is really important. However logically I know most people would think the reverse, they would think their (to me boring) topics is cool and I would be rambling on randomly on something that's completely different to what most people think/believe(as in, it doesn't even occur to think in such a weird way, not so much that they would necessarily disagree but often they do).
Quote: (03-28-2017 03:41 AM)The Catalyst Wrote:
I think this is a real Gamma trait of mine.
What do you do if a lot of the subjects/opinions you have you feel really strongly about, but it's really weird/gamma and so most normies just do not give a fuck. I've always had to learn to be tactful and not burn bridges by outing myself as "weird". However if I try my hardest to act normal I feel I'm hiding a big part of myself. Impulsively I really want to share my strong opinions even though I know logically most people don't care and it would turn them off from me.
Trying to educate people is like bringing them a rock.
Stay with me.
The bigger the shock to their system, the bigger and heavier the rock.
Enter social status. If you are beneath the person you are trying to educate (even if just in their mind) then you are pushing these rocks, big or small, uphill.
If you are on their level then you are pushing these rocks, big or small, horizontally.
If you are above them then you don't have to do much more than drop those rocks and they will roll downhill to be received by those beneath you with little to no effort.
All my experience has told me that trying to change people above you or equal to you is a massive expenditure of energy for not much benefit. Not to them, and most certainly not yourself. The time you spend enhancing yourself as a human being and inevitably winning status among your peers pays off enormous dividends when it comes to how much of a positive impact you can make on the world, if indeed that's what's important to you.
The same great piece of advice can be given by both Roosh and a three-post zero-rep new guy. The new guy will have a hard time pushing it over the course of several pages, while Roosh only has to drop it in a single post and it will be accepted, no questions asked. Not only by the one requesting advice, but everyone else listening and everyone else that hears it came from Roosh, even second or third hand.
If you want to help people, first help yourself. Success breeds trust in guidance.
The public will judge a man by what he lifts, but those close to him will judge him by what he carries.
Treat it like a diet. For most of the week, keep your opinions to yourself and focus on other people. Then you can have a couple of cheat days.
“The greatest burden a child must bear is the unlived life of its parents.”
Carl Jung
Quote: (03-28-2017 11:54 AM)debeguiled Wrote:
Treat it like a diet. For most of the week, keep your opinions to yourself and focus on other people. Then you can have a couple of cheat days.
And if you absolutely must sperg out about a subject near and dear to your heart, don't talk to someone as if they know everything about the subject at hand.
At least give a brief description of the topic/item at hand, so they can follow the conversation.
G
Quote: (03-27-2017 05:03 PM)Akwesi Wrote:
Been trying to think of historical gammas who actually succeeded as "Secret Kings" of sorts, which would obviously be very dangerous to society. The best example I can think of is Karl Marx:
- Never held down a job
- Raised his children in poverty and filth because his grand ideas always had priority
- Alienated and insulted all his "comrades" unless they bowed down to him and accepted his ideas
- Obsessed with having the one correct interpretation of all of human history
- Spent years and years "proving" that former influences and associates were "wrong"
- Serious health problems but continued to live a shitty lifestyle throughout his life
- His economic and political models have been a complete and utter failure around the world, and even undergird today's most grotesque state formations (e. g., North Korea and Venezuela)
- Nevertheless, his infernal influence continues to be pervasive 130+ years after his death, as a big fuck you from the grave to all normal and decent people
I guess the lesson is to never underestimate the ability of such losers to wreak havoc. Maybe Muhammed is another candidate.
As far as I know, Marx only fucked women. He didn't fuck nine-year-old girls, which makes him slightly better than Mohammed.
This thread and the whole Gamma thing is blowing my mind. Not least the last post about Marx (more on that in a bit). There's no easy way to throw all this together, but I'll try.
I recently by accident came across some earth-shattering posts by AB (that inspired this thread). On his very first OP in this thread he said he was following up on a suggestion by Leonard, but he was too humble to post said posts he was referencing (or maybe he forgot), so, after finding them myself, I'll post them here:
thread-61781...pid1531803
thread-61781...pid1535884
I suggest you read them both, if you haven't already. It will be well worth your time if you are interested in this subject.
I haven't gone back through the whole thread. I remember shit-posting but not checking back. Too many great threads here, and I get wrapped up easy. A semi-apology AB: I didn't fully grasp the gravity of what you were working on here. But after seeing these original posts referenced above (that inspired this mega thread), suffice it to say you have opened up some serious floodgates with tying all this deeper knowledge together. I will catch up later, but for now I want to get down what I have in my head.
Also keep in mind that I had not seen these earlier threads before replying to this one (earlier on). I had no idea you shared such candid experiences that you had with your step-dad. I recently also shared some candid experiences, that I had with mine. Here is my original thread:
thread-60905...pid1552332
I closed my computer down last night after reading those original posts from the 'Online Dater' thread, and my world was truly blown apart, my mind racing for almost three hours or so, before I dropped off to sleep.
I hope you don't mind me posting this here. I do it as a case study of a true Gamma, an exposition of sorts. I think many people (myself included) were/are confused by this concept. I can see that you are reaching out there as well, pushing 'further'. It's my hope that I can add something to the canon, as you have done, ameliorating the work of Vox. It will just be an honest account of matters, in a cold and rational breakdown, and with any luck it might add something to your understanding as well. I certainly look forward to you elaborating on all of this later, should you get the time.
I'll just post this here for clarity, so that anyone who missed your earlier threads can catch up (as they can with my thread should they be interested). Also anyone that wants to skip my thoughts in the next post, can do so with ease.
I recently by accident came across some earth-shattering posts by AB (that inspired this thread). On his very first OP in this thread he said he was following up on a suggestion by Leonard, but he was too humble to post said posts he was referencing (or maybe he forgot), so, after finding them myself, I'll post them here:
thread-61781...pid1531803
thread-61781...pid1535884
I suggest you read them both, if you haven't already. It will be well worth your time if you are interested in this subject.
I haven't gone back through the whole thread. I remember shit-posting but not checking back. Too many great threads here, and I get wrapped up easy. A semi-apology AB: I didn't fully grasp the gravity of what you were working on here. But after seeing these original posts referenced above (that inspired this mega thread), suffice it to say you have opened up some serious floodgates with tying all this deeper knowledge together. I will catch up later, but for now I want to get down what I have in my head.
Also keep in mind that I had not seen these earlier threads before replying to this one (earlier on). I had no idea you shared such candid experiences that you had with your step-dad. I recently also shared some candid experiences, that I had with mine. Here is my original thread:
thread-60905...pid1552332
I closed my computer down last night after reading those original posts from the 'Online Dater' thread, and my world was truly blown apart, my mind racing for almost three hours or so, before I dropped off to sleep.
I hope you don't mind me posting this here. I do it as a case study of a true Gamma, an exposition of sorts. I think many people (myself included) were/are confused by this concept. I can see that you are reaching out there as well, pushing 'further'. It's my hope that I can add something to the canon, as you have done, ameliorating the work of Vox. It will just be an honest account of matters, in a cold and rational breakdown, and with any luck it might add something to your understanding as well. I certainly look forward to you elaborating on all of this later, should you get the time.
I'll just post this here for clarity, so that anyone who missed your earlier threads can catch up (as they can with my thread should they be interested). Also anyone that wants to skip my thoughts in the next post, can do so with ease.
Some day I will come back to this thread and try to figure out exactly what a gamma is, intellectually. I am very reluctant to accept brand new definitions of temperamental types, because there are too many of those already.
I have a sneaking suspicion that gamma is nothing new, he is just a flavor of narcissist. An introverted/passive aggressive narcissist.
However, I have come up with my own rule of thumb that seems to be working so far. It is a practical, not theoretical way to identify and deal with a gamma:
A gamma is someone you are nice to because you feel sorry for until you figure out that they look down on you. The only way to get them out of your life is to appear to be the bad guy.
I have a sneaking suspicion that gamma is nothing new, he is just a flavor of narcissist. An introverted/passive aggressive narcissist.
However, I have come up with my own rule of thumb that seems to be working so far. It is a practical, not theoretical way to identify and deal with a gamma:
A gamma is someone you are nice to because you feel sorry for until you figure out that they look down on you. The only way to get them out of your life is to appear to be the bad guy.
“The greatest burden a child must bear is the unlived life of its parents.”
Carl Jung
Ok, here goes. If anything, this post is probably more of a response to the original posts I referenced above - the ones that Leonard asked to be elaborated on. I'll just quickly put them here one more time:
thread-61781...pid1531803
thread-61781...pid1535884
.........
Just with AB's posts above, this is a personal account. I posted in that thread I linked to above (my post) about 'life-changing' events. But I did not know how they would be life-changing. I've spent the last few days since posting all that, coming to terms with things, and also having a major reconstruction of thought with how I approach not just my family, but the whole world, and especially myself. It's been more deep than heavy, though it has required me to dig deeper down than ever before.
But that's enough about me! As I believe that AB's posts weren't really about him. He was exposing the anatomy of a Gamma. And what better person to do it with, than someone you know pretty well, all the while having a reference point of those around you, who you are close to?
The fact that we have both used our step-dads as source material is purely coincidental. But better that than some random bloke we just met on the street. We can see in to their 'souls' a little bit (if that is not too new age) and we can observe how they act with others, not just ourselves and what our personal experiences are with them.
I'm not looking to settle scores here (with regard to any fall-outs in my family), but if any correlations can be found in an academic sense, I'd be happy to have achieved that. That is my intention.
The one major mistake I made with my step-dad is seeing him as an Alpha. I mistook his lack of social awareness for not giving a fuck and not needing approval, all the while it turns out, he does nothing but give a fuck and constantly seek social approval wherever he can. To re-iterate, he is also gravely ill. Please see this post I linked to earlier if you want some background: thread-60905...pid1552332
Things are complicated by the fact as well, that I'm 95 percent certain he does not like me, and in fact, has contempt for me. It sounds to me like AB's relationship is one more based on respect, but I won't second-guess things more than that, and with respect to AB, just focus on what I have to say about MY relationship with MY step-dad.
Thanks once again AB - you have ventured forth where others have feared to tread. I have no doubt if you and I were in the same room at the proverbial party scenario, then you would undoubtedly be the Alpha and I would be the Beta. And I'd be perfectly happy with that. In fact, I prefer the company of a good Alpha, knowing where I stand, not having to put up with snide and snark and all that sort of thing. Not that Betas are always snide or snarkey - they are not - but it's hard sometimes to grade other men on whether they are beta/delta/etc. - with an Alpha, you and everyone else in the room knows where you stand.
In my experience, Alphas are a lot of fun, and if you humbly (but not too humbly) know your place, they'll take care of you too, and everyone gets to enjoy the party. I like this type of thought experiment scenario you often allude to AB. It has wider and deeper merit on many levels. I'm happy to run with that as a reference point.
I'm certainly not an Alpha, though I can be sometimes, and I like to think I rise to the occasion. There are times when I am way down the pecking order. But I don't want to get caught up in that now, as fascinating as it can be. It's all relative - I think that most of us would agree with that.
Back to the anatomy of a Gamma:
I mistook my step-dad for an Alpha. Maybe because he is a good bit taller and heftier than me - 6'5". He's obviously used to getting his own way, as are many men of that size, without trying to hard. Pretty sure he knows who to pick his battles with, but it's a safe assumption that the techniques that he uses for intimidation will have pretty much worked across the board for him: Silent treatment. Staring people out. Arrogant and dismissive attitude. Etc.
All the while, he was an empty shell. A husk of a man. He had a wonderful father who was a real rare gem - it made me wonder how the fuck he came from his loins. But his mother was a cold and callous bitch. A real mismatch. In my experience (I may be wrong) you can always judge a man better by his mother than his father. I won't digress on this point.
I'll just get down to the meat and potatoes and give some examples. For example, I've had several WTF? moments with him - real cognitive dissonance, but because I had no previous metric or yardstick to refer to, I've been left in the dark. Until I saw AB's posts. I am perfectly aware how my blindness might be seen as weakness, but in all honesty, it was not just trying to keep the peace and playing happy families that were my main motives. I honestly did not see the deeper game he was running. Until now.
One thing he did recently was when he was giving me a lift back home, I would say to him: Thank you for the lift [step-dad], and he would blank me - say absolutely fucking nothing at all. A pure dominance display. I thought it was weird, but then it happened again. But he never did it to me when my mum was within ear shot. He made sure he did it when it was just me and him in the car. What can you say to that? Er, I said... THANK YOU. No, it doesn't work like that - he heard, he did not respond, he is playing mind games. Ok. But not once when my mum was in the car. "You are welcome" he would say, when she was.
Another thing, going back a while now when I moved in to this house. I picked up the keys and they gave me a lift helping to drop off some stuff. I met up with the manager(ess) of the place that gave me the keys. An ill humoured woman (hair above the chin, say no more, actually she had a no.3, so there ya go). I was just grateful to have a place to live, finally, to call my own. My step-dad started making these really fucking stupid jokes. Weird. Cognitive dissonance. He never joked with me. They were embarrassing, but he repeated them, 2 or 3 times. I had no idea what was going on. It has stuck in my mind and only until the last couple of days have things made sense.
I don't think he was so much trying to dominate the situation, though he did - he totally took over, but it was more proving his self-worth to a total stranger, but to us as well, his own family. As if? It was weird, sorry no other word for it, up until now.
He did something similar the other day dropping me back home after our argument. I was carrying loads of stuff and mum was helping, he was outside ready to get the car out and he just started talking to some random woman on the street. Now, he's done this several times before, thinking about it, but this time it was fuck annoying. He kept on and on, dominating the situation, my mum and I standing there wanting to get the shit in to the car. Still did not realise I was being gamed.
My mother asked him in the car 'so how did you get talking to her then?' trying not to sound annoyed, to which he replied: oh she just said hello and we got chatting. As if. In my experience, women don't just go saying hello and starting chatting like that. True, she was a tourist (get a lot of them where we live in one of the most beautiful parts of England). But he lied. And he was ready for the question. He did not flinch. Ah, the game, when it all opens up to you.
He smiled at her, he charmed her pants off. And I realised in my long dark night of the soul triggered by Bosch's Gamma thread, he had never once smiled at me. He has also not once ever asked me an open ended question. All this time, I thought I was gaming him. Humouring him. But really, he has just been hiding his deep contempt and hatred for me. I say all this without any kind of personal injury. Please understand that.
Why would he joke with perfect strangers, but not with his own family members?
And another thing I could not understand, that gave me grave cognitive dissonance (knowing that something is very very wrong, but not being able to put your finger on it), was when he talked to his friends the other day on the phone. He has no friends at all. But he has one set of friends, through my mother. They guard them with their life. I don't know who they are or what they do, but they are proof that they are not total failures in life. Oh he was laughing and joking - I saw a side to him I had never seen before. A gravely ill man, that suddenly had come to life. They have always used their illness to emotionally blackmail me, I see that now. Again, I did not understand. Not weakness, but just total blindness on my part.
He did not force those people to swear allegiance to his political cause - he did not interrogate them to their deeper motives. He did not say to them: IT'S PEOPLE LIKE YOU!
Bear with me please brothers, I want to get this out in one go. Just a few more points...
When I talk to him at the dinner table, I am genuinely curious and respectful of what he has to say. But one thing I have noticed is, if he holds court, he will not shut the fuck up - he will drone on and on. To the point of 'ok, this was fun for a while, but it's getting a bit strange now'. If he is interrupted he will not regain composure or train of thought - he will just mooch off. This is behaviour modification. It makes people not interrupt him. If someone else is talking, he will not talk. Only arrogant snide and snark. No wonder my brother wanted to beat the shit out of him a few weeks ago, dying of cancer or no dying of cancer - he had had enough of his shit. And he got away with it too. I sided with him over my brother, for sake of my mother. I feel very foolish.
In fact, he will not even let my mother be alone with me. He can be dropping off to sleep and he will go sit in a chair and sit there with his back to us, for hours, but not go to bed, even though he has a serious health condition and is dropping off. He doesn't want my mother to get excited! And my mother facilitates him in this co-dependent narcissistic relationship (see Aurini's blog for more on this, sorry, got to roll for now).
It's not like my mother is being abused. She is constantly telling me what a saint he is. How he won't be able to 'handle much more' - how he is 'at breaking point, but soldiering on'. I wish to fuck I had seen this shit the pair of them were pulling, that they have been pulling for many years now. And I would not have seen it, except for one temper tantrum from him the other night that opened up my eyes.
Oh, and the fine work of AnonymousBosch.
Because this is very much Gamma behaviour as I understand it. This is not Alpha. Fuck, it's certainly not Beta. It's a whole other level again. Not sure I understand it totally, but it's a new framework to go with, and I think all of us here could take things a bit further should we be brave enough to venture down this path. But it's not for the faint-of-heart.
I've gone on far too long as usual and I'm just warming up. I've got a lot more to add and say, but I'll just leave it there for now.
Thanks AB, and thanks Roosh. I owe you both a debt of gratitude. As I do the majority of men on this forum.
I can't believe I've been played and gamed like a little bitch, and they nearly got away with it as well, should they have just been a little cleverer or more patient.
This says a lot more about me than anyone else, I accept that. I thought I had insight, vision. But I'm going to have to look long and hard at myself in the mirror over the next few days.
And dig even deeper again.
thread-61781...pid1531803
thread-61781...pid1535884
.........
Just with AB's posts above, this is a personal account. I posted in that thread I linked to above (my post) about 'life-changing' events. But I did not know how they would be life-changing. I've spent the last few days since posting all that, coming to terms with things, and also having a major reconstruction of thought with how I approach not just my family, but the whole world, and especially myself. It's been more deep than heavy, though it has required me to dig deeper down than ever before.
But that's enough about me! As I believe that AB's posts weren't really about him. He was exposing the anatomy of a Gamma. And what better person to do it with, than someone you know pretty well, all the while having a reference point of those around you, who you are close to?
The fact that we have both used our step-dads as source material is purely coincidental. But better that than some random bloke we just met on the street. We can see in to their 'souls' a little bit (if that is not too new age) and we can observe how they act with others, not just ourselves and what our personal experiences are with them.
I'm not looking to settle scores here (with regard to any fall-outs in my family), but if any correlations can be found in an academic sense, I'd be happy to have achieved that. That is my intention.
The one major mistake I made with my step-dad is seeing him as an Alpha. I mistook his lack of social awareness for not giving a fuck and not needing approval, all the while it turns out, he does nothing but give a fuck and constantly seek social approval wherever he can. To re-iterate, he is also gravely ill. Please see this post I linked to earlier if you want some background: thread-60905...pid1552332
Things are complicated by the fact as well, that I'm 95 percent certain he does not like me, and in fact, has contempt for me. It sounds to me like AB's relationship is one more based on respect, but I won't second-guess things more than that, and with respect to AB, just focus on what I have to say about MY relationship with MY step-dad.
Thanks once again AB - you have ventured forth where others have feared to tread. I have no doubt if you and I were in the same room at the proverbial party scenario, then you would undoubtedly be the Alpha and I would be the Beta. And I'd be perfectly happy with that. In fact, I prefer the company of a good Alpha, knowing where I stand, not having to put up with snide and snark and all that sort of thing. Not that Betas are always snide or snarkey - they are not - but it's hard sometimes to grade other men on whether they are beta/delta/etc. - with an Alpha, you and everyone else in the room knows where you stand.
In my experience, Alphas are a lot of fun, and if you humbly (but not too humbly) know your place, they'll take care of you too, and everyone gets to enjoy the party. I like this type of thought experiment scenario you often allude to AB. It has wider and deeper merit on many levels. I'm happy to run with that as a reference point.
I'm certainly not an Alpha, though I can be sometimes, and I like to think I rise to the occasion. There are times when I am way down the pecking order. But I don't want to get caught up in that now, as fascinating as it can be. It's all relative - I think that most of us would agree with that.
Back to the anatomy of a Gamma:
I mistook my step-dad for an Alpha. Maybe because he is a good bit taller and heftier than me - 6'5". He's obviously used to getting his own way, as are many men of that size, without trying to hard. Pretty sure he knows who to pick his battles with, but it's a safe assumption that the techniques that he uses for intimidation will have pretty much worked across the board for him: Silent treatment. Staring people out. Arrogant and dismissive attitude. Etc.
All the while, he was an empty shell. A husk of a man. He had a wonderful father who was a real rare gem - it made me wonder how the fuck he came from his loins. But his mother was a cold and callous bitch. A real mismatch. In my experience (I may be wrong) you can always judge a man better by his mother than his father. I won't digress on this point.
I'll just get down to the meat and potatoes and give some examples. For example, I've had several WTF? moments with him - real cognitive dissonance, but because I had no previous metric or yardstick to refer to, I've been left in the dark. Until I saw AB's posts. I am perfectly aware how my blindness might be seen as weakness, but in all honesty, it was not just trying to keep the peace and playing happy families that were my main motives. I honestly did not see the deeper game he was running. Until now.
One thing he did recently was when he was giving me a lift back home, I would say to him: Thank you for the lift [step-dad], and he would blank me - say absolutely fucking nothing at all. A pure dominance display. I thought it was weird, but then it happened again. But he never did it to me when my mum was within ear shot. He made sure he did it when it was just me and him in the car. What can you say to that? Er, I said... THANK YOU. No, it doesn't work like that - he heard, he did not respond, he is playing mind games. Ok. But not once when my mum was in the car. "You are welcome" he would say, when she was.
Another thing, going back a while now when I moved in to this house. I picked up the keys and they gave me a lift helping to drop off some stuff. I met up with the manager(ess) of the place that gave me the keys. An ill humoured woman (hair above the chin, say no more, actually she had a no.3, so there ya go). I was just grateful to have a place to live, finally, to call my own. My step-dad started making these really fucking stupid jokes. Weird. Cognitive dissonance. He never joked with me. They were embarrassing, but he repeated them, 2 or 3 times. I had no idea what was going on. It has stuck in my mind and only until the last couple of days have things made sense.
I don't think he was so much trying to dominate the situation, though he did - he totally took over, but it was more proving his self-worth to a total stranger, but to us as well, his own family. As if? It was weird, sorry no other word for it, up until now.
He did something similar the other day dropping me back home after our argument. I was carrying loads of stuff and mum was helping, he was outside ready to get the car out and he just started talking to some random woman on the street. Now, he's done this several times before, thinking about it, but this time it was fuck annoying. He kept on and on, dominating the situation, my mum and I standing there wanting to get the shit in to the car. Still did not realise I was being gamed.
My mother asked him in the car 'so how did you get talking to her then?' trying not to sound annoyed, to which he replied: oh she just said hello and we got chatting. As if. In my experience, women don't just go saying hello and starting chatting like that. True, she was a tourist (get a lot of them where we live in one of the most beautiful parts of England). But he lied. And he was ready for the question. He did not flinch. Ah, the game, when it all opens up to you.
He smiled at her, he charmed her pants off. And I realised in my long dark night of the soul triggered by Bosch's Gamma thread, he had never once smiled at me. He has also not once ever asked me an open ended question. All this time, I thought I was gaming him. Humouring him. But really, he has just been hiding his deep contempt and hatred for me. I say all this without any kind of personal injury. Please understand that.
Why would he joke with perfect strangers, but not with his own family members?
And another thing I could not understand, that gave me grave cognitive dissonance (knowing that something is very very wrong, but not being able to put your finger on it), was when he talked to his friends the other day on the phone. He has no friends at all. But he has one set of friends, through my mother. They guard them with their life. I don't know who they are or what they do, but they are proof that they are not total failures in life. Oh he was laughing and joking - I saw a side to him I had never seen before. A gravely ill man, that suddenly had come to life. They have always used their illness to emotionally blackmail me, I see that now. Again, I did not understand. Not weakness, but just total blindness on my part.
He did not force those people to swear allegiance to his political cause - he did not interrogate them to their deeper motives. He did not say to them: IT'S PEOPLE LIKE YOU!
Bear with me please brothers, I want to get this out in one go. Just a few more points...
When I talk to him at the dinner table, I am genuinely curious and respectful of what he has to say. But one thing I have noticed is, if he holds court, he will not shut the fuck up - he will drone on and on. To the point of 'ok, this was fun for a while, but it's getting a bit strange now'. If he is interrupted he will not regain composure or train of thought - he will just mooch off. This is behaviour modification. It makes people not interrupt him. If someone else is talking, he will not talk. Only arrogant snide and snark. No wonder my brother wanted to beat the shit out of him a few weeks ago, dying of cancer or no dying of cancer - he had had enough of his shit. And he got away with it too. I sided with him over my brother, for sake of my mother. I feel very foolish.
In fact, he will not even let my mother be alone with me. He can be dropping off to sleep and he will go sit in a chair and sit there with his back to us, for hours, but not go to bed, even though he has a serious health condition and is dropping off. He doesn't want my mother to get excited! And my mother facilitates him in this co-dependent narcissistic relationship (see Aurini's blog for more on this, sorry, got to roll for now).
It's not like my mother is being abused. She is constantly telling me what a saint he is. How he won't be able to 'handle much more' - how he is 'at breaking point, but soldiering on'. I wish to fuck I had seen this shit the pair of them were pulling, that they have been pulling for many years now. And I would not have seen it, except for one temper tantrum from him the other night that opened up my eyes.
Oh, and the fine work of AnonymousBosch.
Because this is very much Gamma behaviour as I understand it. This is not Alpha. Fuck, it's certainly not Beta. It's a whole other level again. Not sure I understand it totally, but it's a new framework to go with, and I think all of us here could take things a bit further should we be brave enough to venture down this path. But it's not for the faint-of-heart.
I've gone on far too long as usual and I'm just warming up. I've got a lot more to add and say, but I'll just leave it there for now.
Thanks AB, and thanks Roosh. I owe you both a debt of gratitude. As I do the majority of men on this forum.
I can't believe I've been played and gamed like a little bitch, and they nearly got away with it as well, should they have just been a little cleverer or more patient.
This says a lot more about me than anyone else, I accept that. I thought I had insight, vision. But I'm going to have to look long and hard at myself in the mirror over the next few days.
And dig even deeper again.
Quote: (04-21-2017 06:02 PM)debeguiled Wrote:
Some day I will come back to this thread and try to figure out exactly what a gamma is, intellectually. I am very reluctant to accept brand new definitions of temperamental types, because there are too many of those already.
I have a sneaking suspicion that gamma is nothing new, he is just a flavor of narcissist. An introverted/passive aggressive narcissist.
However, I have come up with my own rule of thumb that seems to be working so far. It is a practical, not theoretical way to identify and deal with a gamma:
A gamma is someone you are nice to because you feel sorry for until you figure out that they look down on you. The only way to get them out of your life is to appear to be the bad guy.
That's what I wanted to say!
How dare you. You can't do that. I just bored and blahed on for thousands of words and no one knows wtf I'm talking about, but you come in here, with a single paragraph, and sum it up nicely!
Doh!
In all seriousness, there is more to it, but it's not difficult to understand.
In fact, I'm not sure even AB has totally distilled down the essence of what he's been cooking here, either. But your succinct summary is a very nice punctuation to things.
Wish I'd thought of that. Thank you.
Quote: (04-21-2017 06:02 PM)debeguiled Wrote:
A gamma is someone you are nice to because you feel sorry for until you figure out that they look down on you.
And this is why I'm getting more brutal and more testing of people in life. Not talking about men that lift or have their own business. But just the little fucking bitches that seem to be scattered everywhere you walk in society.
I refuse to be bitter, but I also refuse to feel sorry for people these days.
Maybe that last sentence of yours was the pure essence of things. If it could be boiled down that far.
Damn, Alchemy, just won't stop me boiling things down.
But it's like a personal pass time - how to take the piss out of people without them noticing. I'm aware that sounds bitter. Not all people are like that. But fuck, you got to have some defenses and filter in this world.
Sorry AB. I don't want to shit up your thread. I've got nothing more to add. I hope you find what I shared useful. And I look forward to you adding a bit more when you can.
The biggest threat of a Gamma for me is coming across as a potential Alpha, to a vulnerable Beta.
We're only playing about here. But hey, it's fun!
Quote: (03-26-2017 06:51 AM)Fortis Wrote:
^ Accountability did more for my manhood than just about everything else. I cut all the safety nets, packed my bags and went out on my own. I still have a ton to learn but nothing will make you stop being gamma than having to fend for yourself.
Sink or swim.
I wonder if that can be implemented society-wide scale that made gammas fend for themselves. If so what form did it take?
Quote: (04-21-2017 07:29 PM)Rigsby Wrote:
That's what I wanted to say!
How dare you. You can't do that. I just bored and blahed on for thousands of words and no one knows wtf I'm talking about, but you come in here, with a single paragraph, and sum it up nicely!
My first draft of that comment was about twenty thousand words including every time I could think of when a gamma has ever lured me into a relationship and then shit on me and then tried to convince everyone around me that I was a psycho when I got fed up.
And then about twenty more thousand words on all the times I feared I was a gamma.
Then a paragraph or two on why thinking too much about gammas was putting me right where the gammas wanted me.
It was extremely cathartic to write, and then, for some reason, my inner editor woke up from his decades long sleep and told me to chuck almost all of it, and then went back into unconsciousness, probably never to return.
Thanks for the kind words though.
“The greatest burden a child must bear is the unlived life of its parents.”
Carl Jung
Quote: (03-26-2017 05:54 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:
I think one of the best way's to stop gamma tendencies is to realise that 99 percent of all harm people cause you is entirely by your own choosing.
Gammas are locked in a perpetual struggle with the behaviours of people over which they have no control but who they are determined to "teach a lesson to". The comings and goings of the people of the world are like the ebb and flow of the tides, yet the gamma is persistently there on the shore-line with a bucket determined to enforce what he perceives to be the proper order of the universe.
Once you accept that the world and the people in it are perfectly capable of existing without your input then gamma tendencies tend to simply melt away. You find joy in many more things because you realise that just as you are incapable of enslaving others to your ego, so too are they incapable of enslaving you to theirs.
They can try to gain power to do that as a possibility. But to do that they would have to recognize and obey reality anyway. The very nature of power whether personal or via others demands it.
A Gamma must become worthy at some level to even accomplish what he wants to accomplish and ends up changed along the way. Hence perhaps even giving up his original purpose.
Quote: (04-22-2017 11:40 AM)debeguiled Wrote:
Quote: (04-21-2017 07:29 PM)Rigsby Wrote:
That's what I wanted to say!
How dare you. You can't do that. I just bored and blahed on for thousands of words and no one knows wtf I'm talking about, but you come in here, with a single paragraph, and sum it up nicely!
My first draft of that comment was about twenty thousand words including every time I could think of when a gamma has ever lured me into a relationship and then shit on me and then tried to convince everyone around me that I was a psycho when I got fed up.
And then about twenty more thousand words on all the times I feared I was a gamma.
Then a paragraph or two on why thinking too much about gammas was putting me right where the gammas wanted me.
It was extremely cathartic to write, and then, for some reason, my inner editor woke up from his decades long sleep and told me to chuck almost all of it, and then went back into unconsciousness, probably never to return.
Thanks for the kind words though.
You're really teasing me now.
I could write a 20,000 word fucking essay just to your response.
But I won't of course.
Brevity is the soul of wit.
You summed things up nicely.
Boy, if there ever was time AB needed to wade in...
I'm sure he'll be along in a while.
debeguiled, I will just say this:
No matter whether Beta, Alpha, Gamma, one trait all enlightened men have is the propensity for self-reflection. You may find yourself a Beta, an Alpha even, or at worst a Gamma. But you will know what you are when you look in the mirror. Any man that can do this has my deep respect. Even the Gamma - it is hardest of all for the Gamma.
Whoops, nearly wrote an essay. Just in the process of chopping my fingers off. It's the only way I can be stopped. I admire your self-restraint.
Just to be clear, debeguiled, when you say 'lured in to a relationship' - I'm assuming you are talking both about men and women here?
This is fascinating to me, and would love to hear more about this.
I think up to this point we have all assumed the Gamma thing was a man thing, but what holy hell could be broke loose if we started applying these terms to women as well?
This is real information bro'.
Mmmm.. starting to classify ex-girlfriends accordingly to whether Alpha/Beta/Gamma.
We could advance the whole field of psychology with this shit.
AB would get the credit of course. Let's make it happen.
I'd be happy to rant on like a lunatic and provide my own 30,000 word thesis, should anyone ask nicely enough!
For now, I'll spare you.
Still, I'm more than eager to know of your being 'lured in to a relationship'. And especially the 'shit on' part. That's where the Gold is.
No perv!
:-()
This is fascinating to me, and would love to hear more about this.
I think up to this point we have all assumed the Gamma thing was a man thing, but what holy hell could be broke loose if we started applying these terms to women as well?
This is real information bro'.
Mmmm.. starting to classify ex-girlfriends accordingly to whether Alpha/Beta/Gamma.
We could advance the whole field of psychology with this shit.
AB would get the credit of course. Let's make it happen.
I'd be happy to rant on like a lunatic and provide my own 30,000 word thesis, should anyone ask nicely enough!
For now, I'll spare you.
Still, I'm more than eager to know of your being 'lured in to a relationship'. And especially the 'shit on' part. That's where the Gold is.
No perv!
:-()
Rigsby, from the way you describe him above (your step father) he sounds like a covert narcissist with deep attachment disorders (his mother being a cold bitch, you say). His attachment issues stemming from his relationship with his mother sees him projecting this onto your mother & other women around him, while seeing you as a threat. Does that sound at all like it could apply here?
Fascinating post!
Fascinating post!
@Rigsby
Dude, not teasing you. For me, the Gamma subject is a quagmire I could easily get stuck in, and probably will in the future. This thread is always in the back of my mind: "Gotta re-read it, figure it out, come up with a gamma master theory that takes into account every post so far."
I still might do this.
I think part of the fascination comes from the fact that when I read about gammas, it makes me remember times in my life when I had gamma impulses or actions of my own. A truism in game literature is, don't be yourself, be your best self.
A gamma is your worst self, the self you hope you never become, and so the whole subject hits on a bunch of levels. I hate this. Maybe this is me. I remember the time some guy said to me . . ."
There is no end to it.
As to the female side of things, I don't think of women as gammas, because often a gamma is a guy who uses the tools and ruses of a woman, and that is why they repel us. It's like giving up on your natural masculocity to be a gamma.
A woman acting like a woman is a woman, but a man acting like a woman is a gamma.
By "lured," all I meant was they play on your sympathy, maybe not even consciously, and then the punchline comes later, at your expense.
I am just getting warmed up, better stop now.
Dude, not teasing you. For me, the Gamma subject is a quagmire I could easily get stuck in, and probably will in the future. This thread is always in the back of my mind: "Gotta re-read it, figure it out, come up with a gamma master theory that takes into account every post so far."
I still might do this.
I think part of the fascination comes from the fact that when I read about gammas, it makes me remember times in my life when I had gamma impulses or actions of my own. A truism in game literature is, don't be yourself, be your best self.
A gamma is your worst self, the self you hope you never become, and so the whole subject hits on a bunch of levels. I hate this. Maybe this is me. I remember the time some guy said to me . . ."
There is no end to it.
As to the female side of things, I don't think of women as gammas, because often a gamma is a guy who uses the tools and ruses of a woman, and that is why they repel us. It's like giving up on your natural masculocity to be a gamma.
A woman acting like a woman is a woman, but a man acting like a woman is a gamma.
By "lured," all I meant was they play on your sympathy, maybe not even consciously, and then the punchline comes later, at your expense.
I am just getting warmed up, better stop now.
“The greatest burden a child must bear is the unlived life of its parents.”
Carl Jung
Quote: (04-22-2017 05:09 PM)Conscious Pirate Wrote:
Rigsby, from the way you describe him above (your step father) he sounds like a covert narcissist with deep attachment disorders (his mother being a cold bitch, you say). His attachment issues stemming from his relationship with his mother sees him projecting this onto your mother & other women around him, while seeing you as a threat. Does that sound at all like it could apply here?
Fascinating post!
I didn't want to get too much deeper in to this. But what the hell.
I think if anything, his little outburst and snapping was not so much against me, but more against my mother. A warning shot over her bows. She had dared to engage me in deep conversation, and not him. Might be very wrong. He certainly would not ever abuse my mother, and not just for obvious reasons (two sons prepared to commit murder should it ever happen) - but more for his own personal morals. But he is not in touch with himself and fights with himself by proxy. It also might be that he fights those closest to him by proxy, when threatened.
I talked to my bro' earlier on the phone. We haven't talked about the fight they had until now. In fact, it was not a fight. I can say all this without much drama - they will both be dead in the next year or two.
My bro' had some respect for him. It did not develop in to a fist fight. My brother called him out, but he had no desire to respond. But my brother had admiration for the fact he was not afraid of him. My brother said (rightly) that he could have taken him. Over half a foot taller and twice the weight, but very slow (our step-dad). But he simply had no desire to do so. Step-dad showed no fear. My bro' said that even though he showed no fear, it didn't mean he wasn't about to get killed.
My step-dad has the acquiescence of the woman and carer and wife in his life. He has nothing to prove there. He lost with my bro'. I was all there was left for him to prove his manhood. Fucking prick. I was making arrangements with my mother for him to be looked after if she went before him (unlikely) - I just thought it prudent. He is self-destructive.
I think old bully boy has spent a life knowing who to fight with and who not. 6'5" is a pretty impressive stature when you have the bulk to back it up.
I don't want to make this thread too much about him. I've said too much. I really don't want to hi-jack. I think this is a very important thread. I'm just offering a small anecdotal contribution. Hopefully AB can make sense of this. I think AB really might add something to the canon of understanding with his research here.
Funny though. My bro' just went for a haircut and mr. big alpha just kept out of the way, the way dogs and cats do. My bro' never fights. Especially not now. Most of his time spent lying on a bed, shitting in to a bag. Asking nothing from no one. But still able to rage at 'fucking rag head muslims' - he was brought up in a Middle East country like me and has a deep love for them as I do. But he hates hypocrisy. Some might see him as racist. But he's not. The next day, I watched him rage about two fucking whitey chavs attacking an Indian corner shop owner. He wanted to string them up. This is not how this is done in England! he said. He would have personally cut their throats. He hates racism with a deep passion. Any Indian/Black/Pakistani that wants to play the game is alright by him. And those that don't? Fucking hell. I'm with him on that too - it's an ideology we share.
I love my bro' to the death. It's terrible to see them fighting. And my mum picking up the pieces, crying.
I've tried to impose my will, but this is how they want it. They all gang up on me for causing trouble when I try to take control. I could fight. But this is what they want - their little psycho-drama - none of them are innocent.
What more can a man give? His life? His liberty? I could risk all those but no good would it do.
I can only be on the sidelines, picking up the smallest of the pieces, after they have ripped each other to bits.
The anatomy of a destruction of a family.
Again AB, I have not lost sight of the fact that this is your thread. I hope you find something useful in it.
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