[CaliGuy]

First off all, I don't want to get into a discussion whether or not height affects anything.

The simple thing is that most women, not all, see short men the same way that see fat women.

That said, just because a woman is fat or a man is short doesn't mean that they can't date people they are attracted to. They just have to do things a bit different from the norm.

Unfortunately the vast majority of PU material is made for the average man and that doesn't include short guys.

From what I've read and my own experiences, most women do not consider short men to be a sexual threat. Whether this is a good or bad thing, I don't know.

What I'd like to find out is where the best places to meet women are. Night game: Bars/clubs/lounges. Or day game, and what day game spots to go to.

Also what type of game is best for short guys, direct or indirect? I've heard a little bit that short guys should focus more on going direct, does that also apply to day game where guy are supposed to be indirect?

For reference: I'm white, 5'5, 35 years old, decent looking and live in a big city in California. My primary sticking point is that I make friends with women pretty quickly. Women are hardly ever attracted to me.

[XPQ22]

The only way a man ever really knows if a woman is attracted to him is when his dick is in her. Any conclusions you may be drawing before that point is nothing more than projection and supposition.

Taller guys may get more smiles, "IOIs", "flirty behavior" and whatever, but at the end of the day does all that somehow automatically translate into more bangs? I have no idea, frankly.

If it makes you feel any better, I don't think you're really in that much different a boat than the rest of us.

[birthday cat]

(02-13-2017 04:28 PM)CaliGuy Wrote:  

First off all, I don't want to get into a discussion whether or not height affects anything.

The simple thing is that most women, not all, see short men the same way that see fat women.

You can't start a thread by saying that discussing height is off limits and then discuss height in the next sentence, especially when your logic is completely off. Women consider a much broader set of attributes in men than men consider in women. Height is definitely a factor but being short isn't as much of a deal-breaker as being fat for a woman is.

Height makes a difference but attitude and mindset make a much bigger difference.

The hottest girl I ever banged was about an inch shorter than me without heels and but she always wore heels and towered over me. She previously had a boyfriend who was 5'3".

(02-13-2017 04:28 PM)CaliGuy Wrote:  

...
My primary sticking point is that I make friends with women pretty quickly. Women are hardly ever attracted to me.

If you are making friends with women quickly then that is a game problem, not a height problem.

Quote:

What is the recommended way for short men to meet women?

First, put in the work to improve your appearance, logistics, game, etc. That will help give you the confidence that you are missing which is a much bigger problem than your height problem.

Second, figure out your strengths and find your niche. Your niche probably isn't loud dance clubs (unless you are a great dancer) but there are plenty of ways to meet women.

There isn't one best way for short men to meet women. It depends on the strengths of the specific guy.

[Rocha]

Proclaim himself Emperor, and proceed to conquer the world.

   

[kartik13]

I believe you should target Asian women in California. Most Asian women have a thing for white guys, and will probably look past your height. The problem with America especially since your in California is the surplus of tall attractive men. Women in California also have multi-racial options in the dating market. But what would be a even better goal is for you to become location independent, and live abroad. If your only problem is your height either pick east asia, SEA, or Latin America and conquer the women. You will also have more options with younger women since dating age gaps are acceptable in these regions of the world. The two obstacles would be learning a foreign language, and actually becoming "location independent".

http://i2.cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets...ge-169.jpg

[Vill@in]

I'm 5'9 so I'm not 'tall' by any means but most of my friends are taller than me so I can somewhat relate.

I think one of the main reasons why short guys think they have a hard time is because it's already in their head they are at a disadvantage. So going into a situation when you have convinced yourself that you are already at a disadvantage (whether true or not) has already put a chink in your armor. Women can pick up on these insecurities.

So the answer really is quite simple: Be confident. It's cliché and simple but it's the truth. Be confident in yourself and don't give a shit that you're shorter than average. Don't let it bother you. Easier said than done, perhaps....but 'fake it until you make it' if you must.

[Hoser]

OP: you befriend chicks easily, but do you WANT to be their friends? I ask because caring about what others think of you, whether a virtue or not, weakens women's initial attraction to you.

I know a short ginger who has success with women because (1) he assumes the sale, which maintains female attention & attraction, and (2) he doesn't give a single fuck about rejection. Women just assume that, because he's so confident, he must be a successful man. In game, he is.

[Phoenix]

Can't speak from experience, but the logical answer would be:

1. Screen for women who like what you do have to offer more than they dislike your height. For the same reason men weight traits like big butt and big tits differently (ass man, tits man, men who just like them skinny), women weight men's traits differently too. And men have a lot more traits.

The important thing is making sure you're pressing the interaction in a sexual rather than friendship direction -- they cannot be allowed to mistakenly see you as a friend. You will not be their friend, you'll be their lover or a stranger. My guess is your lack of self-confidence, partly coming from your height, is making you afraid of expressing yourself sexually, being demanding of intimate contact etc, and you're falling back to the easier and rejection-risk-free "becoming friends". This may mean 9 rejections instead of 9 friends, but it may also mean 1 lover instead of 0.

2. Wear height increasing shoes, just to take the edge off.

3. Move or travel somewhere where women are shorter. For instance, the average female height in Peru is less than 5ft. You're not short relative to them, and you're about average height compared to their men.

[birthday cat]

(02-14-2017 10:28 AM)Phoenix Wrote:  

....
3. Move or travel somewhere where women are shorter. For instance, the average female height in Peru is less than 5ft. You're not short relative to them, and you're about average height compared to their men.

Countries with average male height under 5'9" from http://www.averageheight.co/average-male...by-country

Indonesia5' 2.25"
Bolivia5' 3"
Philippines5' 3.75"
Vietnam5' 3.75"
Cambodia5' 4"
Nepal5' 4.25"
Ecuador5' 4.25"
Sri Lanka5' 4.5"
Nigeria5' 4.5"
Peru5' 4.5"
India5' 4.75"
Panama5' 5"
Bahrain5' 5"
Iraq5' 5"
Korea, North5' 5.25"
Malawi5' 5.25"
Malaysia5' 5.5"
China5' 5.75"
Mexico5' 5.75"
Cuba5' 6.25"
Gambia5' 6.25"
South Africa5' 6"
Mongolia5' 6.25"
Saudi Arabia5' 6.5"
Kazakhstan5' 6.5"
Paraguay5' 6.5"
Venezuela5' 6.5"
Pakistan5' 6.75"
Ghana5' 6.75"
Malta5' 7"
Uruguay5' 7"
Ivory Coast5' 7"
Egypt5' 7"
Iran5' 7"
Thailand5' 7"
Cameroon5' 7.25"
Colombia5' 7"
Singapore5' 7.25"
Japan5' 7.25"
Qatar5' 7"
Chile5' 7.25"
Libya5' 7.5"
Mali5' 7.5"
Taiwan5' 7.5"
Azerbaijan5' 7.75"
Jamaica5' 7.75"
Mauritamia5' 7.75"
Romania5' 7.5"
Turkministan5' 7.75"
Algeria5' 7.75"
Tunisia5' 7.75"
Morocco5' 8"
Syria5' 8"
Brazil5' 8.25"
Hong Kong5' 8.5"
UAE5' 8.25"
Korea, South5' 8.5"
Portugal5' 8.5"
Albania5' 8.5"
Turkey5' 8.5"
Argentina5' 8.5"

[Fightersword]

The thought that being shorter than the average man is going to somehow torpedo your chances probably damages you more than your height actually does. It won't help you of course, and generally women will prefer taller men, but as they typically consider a wider range of attributes when seeking a mate having good game and a good attitude will do a lot to up your odds. If you go into it with a defeatist mindset though (IE: in short so I have a lower chance anyway), you'll score even less often.

Will some women snub you because of your height and nothing else? Probably. being a defeatist about it won't change those outcomes, but it will make the ones you have a shot at harder than they should be. You can't exactly force yourself to grow a few inches, so don't sweat it.

[Hoser]

How curious that EVERY country on the short list (haha) is brown, black, or yellow. Makes me wonder how much nutrition vs genes is a factor.

North vs South Korea seems to indicate nutrition, but Northern vs Southern Europe (think Vikings and Dutchmen vs Sicilians) seems to indicate genes.

Sorry if too off-topic. I'm thinking out loud.

[LockeAndLoad]

Look up

[Steve McQueen]

I do night game and the way I get around this is to sit on a bar stool. Its harder for them to tell just how tall you are and if you are a good conversationalist, once you have them engaged plus open to talking more, they really dont mind so much.

This type of strategy works better in the city than a rural setting as there is a much higher volume of traffic at the bar.

[Hoser]

Nice hack, McQueen!

[CaliGuy]

(02-13-2017 08:26 PM)birthday cat Wrote:  

(02-13-2017 04:28 PM)CaliGuy Wrote:  

First off all, I don't want to get into a discussion whether or not height affects anything.

The simple thing is that most women, not all, see short men the same way that see fat women.

You can't start a thread by saying that discussing height is off limits and then discuss height in the next sentence, especially when your logic is completely off. Women consider a much broader set of attributes in men than men consider in women. Height is definitely a factor but being short isn't as much of a deal-breaker as being fat for a woman is.

Height makes a difference but attitude and mindset make a much bigger difference.

It's just not a discussion I want to get into. My mindset is that height is a negative so I want to overcome that negative. I don't want to waste time and energy discussing if it's a negative or not.

Quote:

The hottest girl I ever banged was about an inch shorter than me without heels and but she always wore heels and towered over me. She previously had a boyfriend who was 5'3".

Interesting, so a really hot girl had a really short boyfriend. I wonder what she say in him.

(02-13-2017 04:28 PM)CaliGuy Wrote:  

...

Quote:

My primary sticking point is that I make friends with women pretty quickly. Women are hardly ever attracted to me.

If you are making friends with women quickly then that is a game problem, not a height problem.

Primarily it's an attraction problem. If I was tall I wouldn't need game. Since I'm not tall, it is a game issue and something I want to work on.

Quote:

Quote:

What is the recommended way for short men to meet women?

First, put in the work to improve your appearance, logistics, game, etc. That will help give you the confidence that you are missing which is a much bigger problem than your height problem.

Yeah working on appearance is the first step for any men. Though it is extra important as short guys look small women aren't naturally turned on by that.

Quote:

Second, figure out your strengths and find your niche. Your niche probably isn't loud dance clubs (unless you are a great dancer) but there are plenty of ways to meet women.

There isn't one best way for short men to meet women. It depends on the strengths of the specific guy.

From what I've heard bars and clubs are the worst place to meet women for short guys. Though some guys are able to pull it off.

How do you decide on a niche?

[CaliGuy]

(02-13-2017 09:01 PM)Rocha Wrote:  

Proclaim himself Emperor, and proceed to conquer the world.

I would not be a kind ruler. Though having a harem would be nice.

Regarding Napoleon, he was actually average height for the time. he just looked short compared to his bodyguards.

Saying he was short was just a made up way to insult him.

[CaliGuy]

(02-14-2017 02:36 AM)kartik13 Wrote:  

I believe you should target Asian women in California. Most Asian women have a thing for white guys, and will probably look past your height. The problem with America especially since your in California is the surplus of tall attractive men. Women in California also have multi-racial options in the dating market.

From my experience Asian women aren't the magic answer. At least not the Western ones. I've been rejected by Chinese, Korean and Japanese girls. My observations is that they only date Asian men or tall white guys. It seems that the main plus that white guys have over Asian guys is height. If a white guy is short there isn't any reason to choose him over an Asian guy.

Quote:

But what would be a even better goal is for you to become location independent, and live abroad. If your only problem is your height either pick east asia, SEA, or Latin America and conquer the women. You will also have more options with younger women since dating age gaps are acceptable in these regions of the world. The two obstacles would be learning a foreign language, and actually becoming "location independent".

http://i2.cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets...ge-169.jpg

Leaving the country should only be a last ditch option. It's pretty much giving up.

[Hoser]

Agreed that only tall White guys attract the Asian wimminz. Curiously, the White guys are also often balding. A compromise on each side, perhaps? Asian woman settles for bald guy because White, bald White guy settles for Asian woman because woman.

Inquiring minds want to know!

PS: my short, bald White brother settled for the first girl who gave him any sustained interest. He settled for someone comparable to Lindey West, only uglier. 16 years later, she's leaving him (as documented elsewhere on RVF). I wish he had been Red Pill 16 years ago. :-( Perhaps now he'll gobble some crimson meds. Or so I hope.

[birthday cat]

CaliGuy - it seems that you aren't convinced by a lot of our answers in this thread and the other thread. Can you give us lists of the things you have done so far to improve your appearance, game, and logistics? Perhaps that will help us understand you better.

[kartik13]

Caliguy,

Don't let your emotions over power your intelligence. Leaving the country doesnt have anything to do with "giving up". Its like a new start to your dating life. How are you actually "giving up" when your goal is to date women in these new countries? Giving up is going Mgtow or TFL. If your already struggling in your current dating market, maybe its a sign you should enter a new dating market. It has its set of challenges and obstacles you have to face. You will be required to step out of your comfort zone. Don't let foolish pride or your ego distract you from your main goal. You want to have success in this part of your life. You will sometimes have to do things you don't want to, to experience things you never have. Remember one thing in the dating market WOMEN DO THE CHOOSING. You are either selected by women for dating or your not. That's how it works out. No amount of "Game", will make you look taller infront of American women. Being 5'5 is not the end of the world. But relocating IMO will lead to the best results you can ever have. This whole forum has alot to do with travelling and banging women abroad. You think Roosh would be the person he is today if he decided to stay in America?

[CaliGuy]

(02-14-2017 12:25 PM)Steve McQueen Wrote:  

I do night game and the way I get around this is to sit on a bar stool. Its harder for them to tell just how tall you are and if you are a good conversationalist, once you have them engaged plus open to talking more, they really dont mind so much.

This type of strategy works better in the city than a rural setting as there is a much higher volume of traffic at the bar.

How does you approach work?

Do you just walk up to them and sit on a stool at their table or at the bar next to them?

[CaliGuy]

(02-14-2017 01:06 PM)Hoser Wrote:  

Agreed that only tall White guys attract the Asian wimminz. Curiously, the White guys are also often balding. A compromise on each side, perhaps? Asian woman settles for bald guy because White, bald White guy settles for Asian woman because woman.

Inquiring minds want to know!

PS: my short, bald White brother settled for the first girl who gave him any sustained interest. He settled for someone comparable to Lindey West, only uglier. 16 years later, she's leaving him (as documented elsewhere on RVF). I wish he had been Red Pill 16 years ago. :-( Perhaps now he'll gobble some crimson meds. Or so I hope.

Average height 5'10 white bald guy is probably more attractive to Asian women than the average 5'6 Asian guy. (Thanks for the list birthday cat ) I'm a little curious which guy the Asian girl would chose if there was an Asian guy and white guy both 5'10. I think she'll go for the Asian guy.

Too bad about your brother. I got the crappy height from my paternal grandfather, but thank God baldness doesn't run in the family.

[CaliGuy]

(02-14-2017 03:00 PM)birthday cat Wrote:  

CaliGuy - it seems that you aren't convinced by a lot of our answers in this thread and the other thread.

Sorry if I sound like I'm being difficult. I'm looking for actionable things to do. I've had tons of online arguments about height and whether it affects anything. At this point discussing it is a waste of my time and energy. What I really want is something like "You're short, tough. Do this not that." Or a short guy (or somebody who has a short friend that does well) talking about what his approach with women is.

Quote:

Can you give us lists of the things you have done so far to improve your appearance, game, and logistics? Perhaps that will help us understand you better.

No problem.

A month or so ago I went shopping with a gay friend of one of my coworkers. I wanted to go shopping with her but that's a long story. Regardless I'm doing a major revamp of my wardrobe. I'm staring to learn how to blend colors together in a way that look good without making me look shorter.

I'm at the gym 4-5 days a week. Bench, squat, deadlift, standing shoulder press etc. Plus cardio. I'm getting a DEXA bodyfat scan next week so I can find out where I'm at and to see what goals I should set.

Logistics: I have a job, car, and my own apartment that's a 10 minute walk from one of the main bar areas in a big city.

Game: I've read way too much PUA material over the years. I've probably forgotten more than most people will read. I just finished Bang and now I'm reading Day Bang. I'm at the part where Roosh is talking about how that day game should strictly be indirect which inspired me to make this thread.

On average I go out two nights a week. One of those nights is either Swing dancing or Salsa (both are on week nights ) and on Saturday I go out to one of the local bars with a dance floor and try to dance with girls, which never works. I'm reluctant to go up to random girls and start a conversation though I know it's the major part I'm lacking.

I'm considering starting day game but want to get a better idea of how it works before I start approaching.

[rafaeld]

Sounds like you have analysis paralysis my friend. You need to stop reading and start approaching immediately.

In terms of practical advice, this is difficult for taller guys to give because they literally do not see how it can be a handicap. They don't have the experience of being in clubs and having women just look over you/not see you as a sexual threat.


I am 5ft4 which is really quite short for a western country. Over the past five years I've got quite successful and learned a few things you can do to work around it:

- Wear inserts in your shoes if you are going out. Fuck all that "I shouldn't need it" nonsense. Do you wanna get laid or not?
- Avoid bars and clubs unless you are naturally loud and outgoing.
- Learn to fight. Guys in clubs will give you shit when you're short because they think they can get away with it. Learning to fight will teach you to hold yourself in a way that this doesn't happen so much.
- Get jacked. You can't help being short but you can sure as hell make sure you aren't short and skinny.
- Get good at day game, online game or find some other niche. Bars and clubs are unlikely to work for you.
- Move to a country where everybody is shorter.
- It doesn't matter if the girl is taller than you. I've banged girls six inches taller than me before. Drill this into your head.

[LeoneVolpe]

OP, your height doesn't matter nearly as much as you think it does. It only matters if you let it matter. Are there certain girls who absolutely won't fuck you because you're shorter than them? Sure. But the overwhelming majority can still be convinced to go your way if your game is tight enough, height be damned.

I'm not tall, but I'm not short either. I'm of average height. So you might ask yourself -- "What the fuck does this guy know about anything?" Well, admittedly this comparison is apples and oranges but I think it'll still get my point across. I shave my head. Admittedly, this is a polarizing look. Some girls like it, some girls don't. But I've still managed to pull girls who were initially opposed to the look; I can't count how many times I've heard girls say, "I don't normally date/like/fuck bald guys, but there's just something about you," etc. Your attitude can paint over a myriad of perceived shortcomings.

Oh, and if any chick makes fun of your height, just point to your crotch and say, "I'm tall where it counts, bitch."