[Hoser]

There is a disorder, called Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, that produces humans who are genetically and chromosomally male, but whose bodies cannot process androgens (male hormones). Thus, they are born as female-looking as they come, yet they have no uterus or ovaries (rather, their testicles remain inside, undescended).

They usually are not discovered to be [essentially] male until they hit puberty, when they grow boobs but no secondary hair (no pubes and no armpit hair, both of which are normally caused by testosterone, in both males and females--but remember, testosterone has no effect on these people) and they don't commence menstruation, for obvious reasons.

Sufferers of CAIS typically identify as female, but often feel "different". They often have masculine-skewed proportions and facial features, but they still look entirely female, and can even be quite pretty.

I follow on Facebook one particularly pretty CAIS sufferer who posted a YouTube video about what it's like to live with the condition. "She" married a dude recently, and immediately took down her YT vid (imagine how hard it was on the poor cuck to have his wife's condition made public).

I find this "girl" fascinating: she's pretty and sweet, and she looked great at her wedding in a shoulderless gown. She works as a makeup artist (very feminine) but specializes in horror movie wound/decay makeup (very masculine).

The reason for all this background info is to give you an idea of what actually happens, every day, to many people in this world, and to ask further: what should we, and they, think about it?

If you've read some of my other posts, you've seen that I have little sympathy for homosexuals and trannies. Yet CAIS people really are males trapped in female bodies.

What do we make of them? What should they make of themselves? Should they embrace their female bodies and enjoy sex with men, or should they embrace their male brains and go lesbian?

This is a legitimate question I've had for years. I'm hoping RVF can provide some insight not found in more feelings-based venues.

FWIW: I have no stake in the outcome, and I know nobody in real life who suffers from this disorder. I've merely a thinker, and curious about mankind.

[TheFinalEpic]

WNB

[debeguiled]

Tell me what percentage of the population this is, and I will tell what percentage of my time I will spend thinking about it.

[Kid Twist]

I'm a a traditional physician. These people are women. But they are biologically XY so they are chromosomal males. That only matters for the Olympics in my opinion. They have short vaginas. I would not say they are males trapped in female bodies, at all. They have no androgen effect and they developed as default females. How could they be males or "trapped" in any sense of the word? To be male you have to have endogenous androgen production to levels that change you from birth to your eventual male phenotype. That requires a receptor to make sense of the androgen. BOTH.

Partial CAIS is an entirely different scenario.

[Mage]

(01-25-2017 04:05 PM)Kid Twist Wrote:  

I'm a a traditional physician. These people are women. But they are biologically XY so they are chromosomal males. That only matters for the Olympics in my opinion. They have short vaginas. I would not say they are males trapped in female bodies, at all. They have no androgen effect and they developed as default females. How could they be males or "trapped" in any sense of the word? To be male you have to have endogenous androgen production to levels that change you from birth to your eventual male phenotype. That requires a receptor to make sense of the androgen. BOTH.

Partial CAIS is an entirely different scenario.

I completely disagree.

Genetics are primary, hormones are secondary.

If you have an Y chromosome you are a man. If only X chromosomes, you are a woman.

If such a man looking as womanly as he looks, deceives someone that he is a woman in order to get sex or other female benefits, he commits a fraud, especially if he poses as a fertile woman.

If he can produce sperm and father children then he should definatly be considered a man.

If he is infertile, cannot produce sperm then he can be considered asexual at best but certainly not a woman.

Look, even among normal men some are more manly and some are less manly, often due to character and training but often simply due to genetics. Some men just have higher natural testosterone levels and are taller, have longer penis and have a lower voice and naturally have a lot of muscle while others are less lucky. Still more lucky or less lucky a man is called to work with what tools nature has given him and develop his masculinity to the extent it is possible.

These men are just on the extreme unlucky side of masculinity, but it doesn't change the fact that they are men.

[Elster]

Well in relation to your question,I have no direct answer but I did learn about conditions such as this from one of my early tutors in life,who incidentally had a vagina.
She used to be my math support teacher when I was in primary school but we sort of kept contact, her actual carreer was biology and she specialized in the study of sexual anatomy. One fine day at age 14 I met her in a cafetin by chance and I asked her what was she doing,she said she was preparing an exam and I had the unfortunate gale to ask about what.
She said "sexual malformations",when she saw my interested expression she showed me her books which were about all kind of hormonal imbalances and aberrant sexual developments in human beings, from males that had such a low count of masculine hormones that even in a nude pic it was hard to make out the testicles,to hypertrofiated phaluses and tits and all kinds of stomach turning stuff.

I can safely say I lost a great deal of sensibility that day, to the point where I can now eat a sandwich while a graphic documentary about excrement plays in the background

[Hoser]

Kid Twist: that was an illuminating answer. I take it then, that you would counsel such a patient to consider herself female, and merely sterile?

Also:

(1) What are your thoughts on surgery to remove the gonads?
(2) What's your take on PAIS? As I recall, there are about 6 levels of androgen insensitivity. That's a can of worms.

[Hoser]

Mage: for argument's sake, pretend you're the one born neither fully male nor female. Would you be able to accept a "no love, and no fun, for you!" verdict?

Hell, even Nick Vucovic (not certain I got the name right-he's the Aussie with no arms or legs) didn't embrace (no pun intended) that defeatist attitude, and now he gets it on the regular.

[Mage]

(01-25-2017 04:28 PM)Hoser Wrote:  

Mage: for argument's sake, pretend you're the one born neither fully male nor female. Would you be able to accept a "no love, and no fun, for you!" verdict?

Hell, even Nick Vucovic (not certain I got the name right-he's the Aussie with no arms or legs) didn't embrace (no pun intended) that defeatist attitude, and now he gets it on the regular.

There is no such thing as neither fully male or female - you either have an Y chromosome or not, it's binary. If you have Y chromosome then you can only be naturally more masculine or less masculine a man, depending on your natural hormone levels but you certainly cannot be a woman.

If I were born an extremely unmasculine man I would either undertake a hormone therapy to appear decently masculine if possible, if not then I would focus on other things in my life then sex. Something that modern secular society forgets is that sex is not a necessity in life, many people live without it voluntarily or involuntarily and no one has died from a lack of sex. Formerly religions understood it and there were special orders were people like that could go to transmute their unfulfilled sexual energy to higher endeavors. The boom of transgenderism is a direct consequence to the elimination of religiosity and cloisters.

I would certainly not pretend to be a woman - something I am not - I would not deceive myself and I would certainly not deceive other men into sleeping with me.

To those straight men disagreeing with me I would ask: Would you sleep with a very feminine looking individual if you knew that this individual has an Y chromosome? How would you react if you only learned about this individual having an Y chromosome, only after you have slept with him?

[Hoser]

^ I respect your take on the issue.

[Thomas the Rhymer]

Why are we discussing sexual identity issues in the RooshVForum? This is not what I signed up for.

It's a condition. Bummer. 'We' don't have to build up an entire gender identity theory just because of a tiny percentage of people have a condition. This feels like a troll thread.

[Hoser]

Why discuss? Because the subject blows my mind, and I can't wrap my head around it. That's why it was posted in the "Deep" forum. Should people with CAIS be attracted to chicks or to dicks? It's a valid question that I thought I could ask in this purportedly cerebral venue.

The irony, that you would accuse me of trolling, and not the other way around....

[Mage]

(01-26-2017 02:05 AM)Hoser Wrote:  

Why discuss? Because the subject blows my mind, and I can't wrap my head around it. That's why it was posted in the "Deep" forum. Should people with CAIS be attracted to chicks or to dicks? It's a valid question that I thought I could ask in this purportedly cerebral venue.

The irony, that you would accuse me of trolling, and not the other way around....

There is no mystery here, it is very simple: Y chromosome = man, no Y chromosome - woman. I cannot understand what is so mind boggling here.

[Leonard D Neubache]

What questions would johnbozzz have asked next?

[Kid Twist]

(01-25-2017 04:12 PM)Mage Wrote:  

(01-25-2017 04:05 PM)Kid Twist Wrote:  

I'm a a traditional physician. These people are women. But they are biologically XY so they are chromosomal males. That only matters for the Olympics in my opinion. They have short vaginas. I would not say they are males trapped in female bodies, at all. They have no androgen effect and they developed as default females. How could they be males or "trapped" in any sense of the word? To be male you have to have endogenous androgen production to levels that change you from birth to your eventual male phenotype. That requires a receptor to make sense of the androgen. BOTH.

Partial CAIS is an entirely different scenario.

I completely disagree.

Mage, I've found in a few interactions that you just like to disagree. I have met many people like you in my life, I presume, and I understand the thinking because I myself am like that or was like that at one point. Read your response again, you do not completely disagree with what I said. How could you? Mine is a nuanced take on biology and the complexities of how development occurs, including default biological states. Trust me, I'm not an adversary, but you'll find as you age that completely rigid positions on things that have nothing to do with principle or virtue are silly at best, and counter-productive at worst.

[Kid Twist]

(01-25-2017 04:22 PM)Hoser Wrote:  

Kid Twist: that was an illuminating answer. I take it then, that you would counsel such a patient to consider herself female, and merely sterile?

Also:

(1) What are your thoughts on surgery to remove the gonads?
(2) What's your take on PAIS? As I recall, there are about 6 levels of androgen insensitivity. That's a can of worms.

Depending on your point of view, CAIS to PAIS is levels of winning vs. losing.

The short answer is yes, you are a sterile female.

The surgery part is the recommendation due to added risk of malignant transformation when the testes are undescended, though I'd have to review the literature to see if in this small subset it is the same risk (I know it's recommended, but I imagine on theory it is different since the receptors don't activate). Otherwise, I wouldn't take them out --- I'd give the information of the natural history and let the patient decide.

PAIS has the difficulty of being an extremely rare disorder with nuances that likely will never have an ideal outcome --- but I would view that and tell my child (if that afflicted him) that is in fact the case for everyone of us as humans, some more than others. In general, I would say we would make a determination early and stick with it. Challenges would arise but support and love of family as well as the importance of virtue would be my stress as to what makes us truly human. That would be my goal because I would be frank, the biological challenge and identity issue would always be there, and that has to be dealt with in a mature, responsible way.

[Mage]

(01-26-2017 10:30 AM)Kid Twist Wrote:  

(01-25-2017 04:12 PM)Mage Wrote:  

(01-25-2017 04:05 PM)Kid Twist Wrote:  

I'm a a traditional physician. These people are women. But they are biologically XY so they are chromosomal males. That only matters for the Olympics in my opinion. They have short vaginas. I would not say they are males trapped in female bodies, at all. They have no androgen effect and they developed as default females. How could they be males or "trapped" in any sense of the word? To be male you have to have endogenous androgen production to levels that change you from birth to your eventual male phenotype. That requires a receptor to make sense of the androgen. BOTH.

Partial CAIS is an entirely different scenario.

I completely disagree.

Mage, I've found in a few interactions that you just like to disagree. I have met many people like you in my life, I presume, and I understand the thinking because I myself am like that or was like that at one point. Read your response again, you do not completely disagree with what I said. How could you? Mine is a nuanced take on biology and the complexities of how development occurs, including default biological states. Trust me, I'm not an adversary, but you'll find as you age that completely rigid positions on things that have nothing to do with principle or virtue are silly at best, and counter-productive at worst.

I disagree

It's my fucking 1st amendment right to disagree whenever I want and voice that disagreement whenever I find it suitable. You don't have to like it.

What you just wrote is a gibberish containing no information or valid arguments just like speech of Architect in Matrix 2. All you have there are soft attempts to try and shame me for saying white is white and black is black.

You sound like a liberal troll who tries to stir up and mud up perfectly clear water for sake of a SJW agenda and implying that people are somehow inferior for disagreeing your over-nuanced opinion

[Kid Twist]

1st amendment and shame have nothing to do with anything here. My words stand on their own.

I agree with a lot of what you said in your 5:42 post but that has nothing to do with this CAIS issue. Your take on it is counter productive in dealing with it in real life, and perhaps everybody's, to a certain extent, but ours are at least attempts.

Please don't go on calling me names now. I'm neither a progressive, nor a troll, as anyone can see in my hundreds of posts.

Stating that the issue is not complex is an ideologue's stance. I don't find it helpful to discussion, since it has nothing to do with principle or virtue.

If it had to do with those cases, I am all for it, and other strong opinions. Don't make people your enemies that are not.

[Mage]

(01-27-2017 01:37 PM)Kid Twist Wrote:  

1st amendment and shame have nothing to do with anything here. My words stand on their own.

I agree with a lot of what you said in your 5:42 post but that has nothing to do with this CAIS issue. Your take on it is counter productive in dealing with it in real life, and perhaps everybody's, to a certain extent, but ours are at least attempts.

Please don't go on calling me names now. I'm neither a progressive, nor a troll, as anyone can see in my hundreds of posts.

Stating that the issue is not complex is an ideologue's stance. I don't find it helpful to discussion, since it has nothing to do with principle or virtue.

If it had to do with those cases, I am all for it, and other strong opinions. Don't make people your enemies that are not.

Listen it is you who abandoned arguing about the topic of this question and started to argue using false ad hominems about my rigidness, discussion style lack, of nuance and the like. That's typical leftist SJW tactic.

If you want to oppose my opinion then please explain what better defines gender then Y chromosome, if you cant then let's stop our mutual discussion on this subject.

[nomadbrah]

Rumors have said Jamie Lee Curtis has this condition.

[El Padrone]

If you have a dick, you're a man. If you have a vagina, you're a chick.

A man afraid of taking on the challenges of manhood thinks he's ''trapped''. A woman scared of the real essence of womanhood thinks in deranged tangential terms.

They're both forms of self imposed delusions.

You're either male or female.

[Kid Twist]

^ Yet I was called names for the same claims. Yet the CAIS woman can't.

I'm all for the importance of biology. Mage's arguments above don't consider that biology (the default state we have with CAIS for example) created a woman due to inexpressible chromosomes or DNA segments. Yet he still wants to make it either/or

As I pointed out and El Padrone did as well, it's just silly, it's too 1 dimensional.

As a further point or support, how is a sterile XX woman any different than a CAIS woman?

She's not.

Does any of this matter in the larger scheme of life? No.

[EDantes]

(01-25-2017 04:03 PM)debeguiled Wrote:  

Tell me what percentage of the population this is, and I will tell what percentage of my time I will spend thinking about it.

I read once that even if "true transsexuals" exist, they're about 0.001% of the population at most.

However due to 'social justice' craziness, they want you to believe a kid has about a 50/50% chance of being born transgender.

The reality is the increase in people 'coming out as transgender' is just due to the promotion of it by the media; it's really no different than the 'emo kid' or 'goth' faze some kids go through in HS; guy is shy or effiminate, feels rejected by his male peers, so he just decides to 'identify' as a woman because he thinks he'll be more accepted.

Not to mention there are many other mental conditions which can result in symptoms of gender confusion, and most children who experience it naturally grow out of it. Autistic kids for example sometimes might end up mimicking the body language of the opposite sex due to not understanding social cues; this Canadian newspaper has accused trans activists of exploiting autistic children by coaching them into sex change surgeries they don't need:

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-commen...ge-genders

[YoungBlade]

"Get out of my house. How'd you get in here? Ten seconds before I start enforcing castle doctrine."

[ed pluribus unum]

"What do you tell them" ?

The time of day, if that's what they asked for. I'm not a doctor and they probably don't need my unsolicited $0.02 on their condition.