[C-Note]

He needs to start wearing a mouth guard when he appears at public events. He has been lucky so far that the leftists he has encountered don't know how to punch.

[not-a-pua]

Dude needs to be careful otherwise people just assume it's ok to hit him. This can totally spiral out of control soon.

[C-Note]

It won't stop because of this chain of logic:

- Spencer supports white nationalism which is the same as Nazism
- Nazism was led by Hitler
- Hitler was so evil that anything would have been morally justifiable to stop him, therefore
- Violence against Spencer is morally justifiable

[Atlanta Man]

If the Alt Right was Hip Hop and the figureheads were rappers , Richard Spencer would be the Yung Berg of the Alt Right-Constantly getting robbed and beaten.

[IveBeenFramed]

(01-27-2017 10:51 AM)Atlanta Man Wrote:  

If the Alt Right was Hip Hop and the figureheads were rappers , Richard Spencer would be the Yung Berg of the Alt Right-Constantly getting robbed and beaten.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

[stugatz]

Spencer's a stupid douchebag - but the antifas are the scum of the earth. I can't believe someone actually made me side with him.

Overheard a particularly stupid line yesterday, this week *really* unhinged the lefties. "Yeah, you shouldn't go around punching Nazis, but if you keep letting people do it, they might turn into the Greatest Generation." Ha. You wish, cuck.

[joeclyde99]

There is no excuse to punch some guy in the face. No matter how much you disagree with him. If we excuse this. Then anyone labeled as bad or evil is fair game.

It's no different from the guy attacked at the Trump rally. Keep your hands to yourself.

[Meat Head]

The real question here is whether Spencer is increasing the quality of his bangs and banging white nationalist groupies due to his fame.

[John Michael Kane]

(01-29-2017 03:54 AM)Meat Head Wrote:  

The real question here is whether Spencer is increasing the quality of his bangs and banging white nationalist groupies due to his fame.

He's married apparently with a child, but he's separated from his wife. I'd say his game is lacking based upon being separated from the wife. If you are a leader of men, your woman will also follow you. He doesn't appear to have many men or women following him from what I can tell. The very fact that he gets punched TWICE in public leads me to believe he's an online-only sensation. A media hype train without a real-life movement to back him up.

[not-a-pua]

(01-27-2017 10:27 AM)C-Note Wrote:  

It won't stop because of this chain of logic:

- Spencer supports white nationalism which is the same as Nazism
- Nazism was led by Hitler
- Hitler was so evil that anything would have been morally justifiable to stop him, therefore
- Violence against Spencer is morally justifiable

Your chain of logic is wrong.
- Nazism is Pan Germanic Supremacy. Are you aware that Nazis killed tons of Slavs?
- Nazism died in 1945.
- Yes, the longer Hitler is dead the fiercer the fight against him needs to be.

[Atlanta Man]

(01-29-2017 10:55 AM)not-a-pua Wrote:  

(01-27-2017 10:27 AM)C-Note Wrote:  

It won't stop because of this chain of logic:

- Spencer supports white nationalism which is the same as Nazism
- Nazism was led by Hitler
- Hitler was so evil that anything would have been morally justifiable to stop him, therefore
- Violence against Spencer is morally justifiable

Your chain of logic is wrong.
- Nazism is Pan Germanic Supremacy. Are you aware that Nazis killed tons of Slavs?
- Nazism died in 1945.
- Yes, the longer Hitler is dead the fiercer the fight against him needs to be.

Someone has been reading their history, Good Look Not A PUA-Nice perspective.

Not A PUA is actually correct, Read Mein Kampf he equated Slavs to dogs. My girl is Russian , to Hitler she was "impure" a "dog". He wanted to enslave the dogs and make Russia (including Ukraine) Germany's bread basket. In Ukraine today pro facist forces (backed by the USA) are fighting Russia.

[Repo]

I don't know if C-note was stating the logic was correct, or just stating the logic that people use.

[Yatagan]

(01-29-2017 12:21 PM)Repo Wrote:  

I don't know if C-note was stating the logic was correct, or just stating the logic that people use.

Looked like the latter to me.

[Maxzilla]

Is it just me or does Richard Spencer give off gay vibes? It wouldn't be that much of a stretch, because homosexuals do have a history of involvement with nationalist/fascistic movements - see Nazi SA. They tend to be obsessed with 'aesthetics', 'manliness', hierarchy.

[armenia4ever]

Current logic we are seeing to justify violence:

- A guy is playing identity politics in a way we don't like.
- Identity politics that isn't progressive in allegiance is Nazism
- It's okay to kill Nazis
- Spencer and anyone remotely associated with him - a.k.a guilt by association is a Nazi, so we can hurt them too.


I remember when the word Nazi used to actually refer to someone who supported the ideals. Ironically, many of the 25 points put forth by Nazi party are actually supported, part of our governments function, and considered essential by many on the left. Somehow, they aren't tainted by guilt by association. Typical.

[Meat Head]

Is he wealthy? What is his source of income?

[Paracelsus]

(01-27-2017 09:53 AM)C-Note Wrote:  

He needs to start wearing a mouth guard when he appears at public events.

[Bill Brasky]

Just came across an article on Breitbart in which David Harbour said "we will punch some people in the face to protect the marginalized."

http://www.breitbart.com/big-hollywood/2...tect-weak/

I couldn't help but think of the Richard Spencer incident when this came up. In all likelihood, he was advised by his handler/PR agent who heard about this and told him to say what he said.

Interestingly enough, I actually knew David Harbour and was fairly well acquainted with him when I lived in Los Angeles. The last contact I had with him was about 3 years ago. We went to the same gym and grabbed coffee on a few occasions. From what I remember, he was a decent, affable guy and was pretty down to Earth. I always figured he was a lefty as it is a requisite political mindset for working in the entertainment industry. He would usually wear hippy-ish t-shirts ("be the change you wish to see in the world - Ghandi") but, whatever, no harm in that.

When I saw this article I became absolutely infuriated when I saw his face. I wanted to contact him and let him know that he is normalizing violence against anyone who is not a raging shitlib and that Nazi is now a blanket label used for anyone who is not a flaming shitlib or antifa. It reminded me of one of Milo's speeches that I listened to. Milo said that the left is normalizing violence against dissent and want to be able to attack people for ideas that do not merge with conventional neoliberal groupthink. These people are neo-Bolsheviks and I don't think many of them know that they are playing with a loaded gun and that they are doing harm to good people under the banner of "hurting nazis." Makes me sick. I know that he, like other Hollywood fuckwads, are trying to further their careers with political status jockeying.

I used to have his number in my phone but now I can't seem to find it. I must have deleted as I deleted many numbers after I left LA. Fuck what I wouldn't do to be face to face with him right now.

Never have I been more convinced that Hollywood, Big Business, Academia, and the legacy media are full-fledged enemies of the people of the United States.

I'm not one for doomsday circle jerking, but the writing is on the fucking wall.

[AnonymousBosch]

^ I'm largely out-of-the-loop at the moment due to travelling, but, catching up, I can see that the left have reached the mutation I was predicting back in late 2014. This was when I wrote about them being deliberately-infantilised to keep their morality in a non-adult, binary Kohlberg Stage 3 mindset: there is only black and white, no complexity.

I also started floating a theory of their existing a Degenerate Triad: their thinking is irrational, emotional and symbolic. Back then, I don't think the Forum really-grasped the inevitability of what they were marching towards, which is why I've been saying they're a realistic threat that people shouldn't be complacent about.

What I said over two years ago, has now come to pass, exactly as I expected it to:

Quote:

SJW's are black and white thinkers - you are either with them or against them, and also believe the ends justify the means, (and the evidence of that is historical document, shown to happen again and again whenever the irrational / emotional / symbolic triad starts mutating into fascist thinking).

I was speaking of processes like this.

- Nazis are the embodiment of evil. (Symbolic)

- I'm Good and Righteous in my beliefs, therefore anyone who doesn't agree with me must be evil. (Irrational)

- Futher, anything that upsets me emotional must be an evil attack upon me. (Emotional)

- Therefore anyone who doesn't agree with must be a Nazi. (Irrational)

- My feeling that you are a Nazi is evidence of your Nazism (Emotional).

- Nazis are evil, and evil deserves righteous violence, and your explanations are simply attempted justifications to excuse you from righteous retribution. (all three)

- There is nothing nothing you can say can disprove that you're a Nazi if I've decided you are. (all three)

Since the creation these 'Degenerate Triad' thinkers has been systemically-implemented in Education since Obama's first term, this was why I was voicing concerns way back last year in the Trump thread, that, even if he was successfully-elected, he still had a mass of functionally-brainwashed Agents of Change to deal with, and I see no way of deprogramming Irrational, Emotional and Symbolic thinkers on that large a scale. They'll never embrace Civic Nationalism, because they're loyalty to the utopian fantasy of America, not the harsh reality of what it is.

I mean, does anyone here think what the Modern Left has turned into over the last year are capable of being reasoned to with facts and logic?

This, not Immigration or Terrorism or Financial Crisis, is Trump's real challenge going forward. Take his tweet today: he can offer olive branches to Gays all he wants, but they will never accept him, because he exists not as a Human Being to them, but a Symbolic Symbol of everything they hate.

Look, I'm a smart guy, but I'm sure the people on Trump's team are far smarter than me, so if I could see this Mutated Fascist Mindset coming that far in advance, then Trump has to know that the gap to the left is unbridgable, without serious psychological re-education on a mass scale.

This is why I keep wondering if we're being deliberately-polarised to extremes to set the stage for a mass purge of socialists.

If that's to happen, then I think the Left will be allowed and enouraged to become extremely-violent, to guarantee that such an appalling situation arises that an extreme crackdown on civil liberties is acceptable to the majority of the population.

As such, I'd like members to take this into serious account: until the perfect Useful Propaganda Situation arises, if you take on the left, you're on your own. Trump seems currently-uninterested in defending voters from obvious agitators like Antifa, who have no logical reason to still be allowed to exist after the Inaugaration, except to push people rightwards through appalling behaviour.

So be warned, you potentially-have more use to the right as a bullet-riddled propaganda photo than as a living, breathing voter, (particularly as the left, as I also predicted ages back, are now training with guns). Don't underestimate them, and always be intensely-aware of your situation in a crowd.

Spitballing on from that, I expect Leftist violence to largely-happen en masse, and be aimed at the rank and file on the street who have being pointed to and labelled as Nazis. If it comes down to this level of violence, the obvious temptation is to wade in and to bust Commie Skulls, or attack the Media Enablers, but I believe this is a mistake, because all you're doing is granting them matyrdom. I've seen plenty of tweets over the last week of Progressives saying they're 'willing to die for the cause', mainly because they have an unhealthy relationship with works of juvenile fantasy and don't realise that, in reality, the plucky heroes aren't protected by plot armour.

Remember: Progressives are low-information, and form their opinions of the world largely-through entertainment media.

Knowing that, I'd float this idea to the Government, (and I'm speaking purely-theoretically here about the Legal Powers of the Government, before anyone on the left who are currently openly-encouraging violence are going to hypocritically accuse me of encouraging violence).

The Achilles Heel of Progressives is their inability to tell reality from fantasy.

To massively-demoralise them, attack the symbols of what they love.

As such, if it comes down to open violent warfare with the left, ignore the Social Justice Warriors and the Media, and, instead, target the celebrities.

These stupid kiddy movies, superhero movies and toxic television shows function as their reliable Safe Spaces, where harsh reality can't intrude. They have deeply-unhealthy relationships with these shows and characters, as many creators have discovered if they do something that pisses them off.

So, what happens if the stars of these shows who are encouraging physical violence against those with differing political views to their own are removed from the public sphere?

What if they sit down to binge-watch Season 2 of 'Stranger Things', needing their escape from reality, only for it to never arrive, because David Harbour was taken away by Homeland Security and, well, never seen again? They might recast, sure, but they'll be acutely-aware of Harbour's absence.

What if the ugly dyke from 'Orange Is The New Black' who spoke about beating Trump supporters with a baseball bat was removed from both the show, and the public sphere, then held in indefinite detention somewhere for terroristic threats of violence?

What if there's simply no more Madonna and no-one knows what happened to her, though rumours and speculation abound.

What if, one by one, their rebellious fantasy heroes are snuffed out like candles? Imagine the fuss if the Harry Potter girl, or the Star Wars girl, or that privileged Hunger Games twat just, once again, vanish.

Tear down their gods, one by one, and you'd tear down their safe fantasy. I have no sympathy for them: they've made it clear they want people like you and I dead. If they want to play Revolutionary, then they are showing they're willing to be lined up against the wall and shot by those in power for their beliefs.

No-one on the left is going to cry for long over a dead university student, but I've seen girls on Twitter threatening to kill themselves when they think their favourite shows are being cancelled. Remove the agitprop actors, and I truly believe the demoralisation of the Left would be astounding. Since they love their entertainment to be Grim'N'Gritty, the Government might as well deliver.

[not-a-pua]

Looks like everyone Pro Trump is now a "Nazi". Filthy leftist rats.
Be extra careful with Trump hats and statements. You guys have guns. If you can carry, do so.

[Renzy]

(01-30-2017 10:47 AM)not-a-pua Wrote:  

Looks like everyone Pro Trump is now a "Nazi". Filthy leftist rats.
Be extra careful with Trump hats and statements. You guys have guns. If you can carry, do so.

Man that pisses me off.

I'm willing to bet that none of these individuals would have the balls to go one on one with your average Trump voter; They're only brave enough to get physically confrontational when they have their mob of fellow lefties behind them.

[Atlanta Man]

^^^What caused them to attack him?

[armenia4ever]

Notice how the "Nazi boy" shouts from one of the guys rejoicing that the guy is unconscious. Didn't take long.

This is like a reverse version of an alternate universe where men all stand in unison and state firmly and convincingly, "I am Richard Spencer!", even if they don't like him.

It's happening. Everyone who supports Trump is Richard Spencer - and apparently a Nazi.

[8ball]

(01-30-2017 07:33 AM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  

These stupid kiddy movies, superhero movies and toxic television shows function as their reliable Safe Spaces, where harsh reality can't intrude. They have deeply-unhealthy relationships with these shows and characters, as many creators have discovered if they do something that pisses them off.

So, what happens if the stars of these shows who are encouraging physical violence against those with differing political views to their own are removed from the public sphere?

What if they sit down to binge-watch Season 2 of 'Stranger Things', needing their escape from reality, only for it to never arrive, because David Harbour was taken away by Homeland Security and, well, never seen again? They might recast, sure, but they'll be acutely-aware of Harbour's absence.

What if the ugly dyke from 'Orange Is The New Black' who spoke about beating Trump supporters with a baseball bat was removed from both the show, and the public sphere, then held in indefinite detention somewhere for terroristic threats of violence?

What if there's simply no more Madonna and no-one knows what happened to her, though rumours and speculation abound.

What if, one by one, their rebellious fantasy heroes are snuffed out like candles? Imagine the fuss if the Harry Potter girl, or the Star Wars girl, or that privileged Hunger Games twat just, once again, vanish.

Tear down their gods, one by one, and you'd tear down their safe fantasy. I have no sympathy for them: they've made it clear they want people like you and I dead. If they want to play Revolutionary, then they are showing they're willing to be lined up against the wall and shot by those in power for their beliefs.

No-one on the left is going to cry for long over a dead university student, but I've seen girls on Twitter threatening to kill themselves when they think their favourite shows are being cancelled. Remove the agitprop actors, and I truly believe the demoralisation of the Left would be astounding. Since they love their entertainment to be Grim'N'Gritty, the Government might as well deliver.

This topic comes up again and again here. That change will happen over time, it has happened many times before, this is nothing new. It just seems out of the ordinary because it is happening to us and each individual now has the technology to share what we are seeing, feeling and our analysis with the rest of the world.

Quote:

trump TV Is a Real Thing
Following Donald Trump's presidential victory, many broadcast networks began to re-evaluate their programming decisions. This pilot season is already showing signs of their efforts to appeal to Trump America with NBC's military hero drama For God and Country; ABC's Marc Cherry soap about a "Red State" sheriff (Reba McEntire); ABC comedies Raised by Wolves, Libby & Malcolm and its Daveed Diggs half-hour about an outspoken rapper who runs (and wins) a mayoral election. Then there's CBS' Edward Snowden-like drama Perfect Citizen about the NSA's divisive general counsel-turned-Boston attorney, as well as a Navy SEALs show.

link

The reason why there will be so much anger especially in trump's first 2 years is because of a dramatic shift that is destined to occur while some corporations evaluate their short term and long term strategy. The change will impact the industry the most and its already having some effect. The louder they scream, the more pain they will feel.

Take a look at films produced from 1973-1980 and take a look at movies/tvshows/music in the reagan era. People here forget so easily, micheal moore made a speech about the iraq war in 2003, the camera's cut away, very few people clapped and he was mostly shunned by all of the major players in hollywood. Thats the state of hollywood in a republican president, a very weak - moderate - republican president like Bush. Imagine now the effect that Trump will have. Trump will detonate a nuclear weapon on the entire grievance industry, causing so much destruction that it will take the left at least 20 years to make a comeback with most likely a very weak centre left candidate. He's been in charge a week and they are already having a hard time tending to their anal leakage wounds.

The industry is divided in the following: 20% 'hard core lefties, 5% 'very active republicans'(believe it or not, yes its true), 75% in the 'making a living' category. The last category will always choose the winning side, they are here for the cash and fame and nothing else. When ever a dramatic shift like this occurs, like it did with Obama, there are winners and there are losers. The current hollywood snowflakes that are screaming the loudest are either the winners of the cultural change(lena dunham, amy schumar, insert shonda rhimes related show) or have nothing else to give but jump on the bandwagon(madonna, ashley judd etc), and there are losers traditional male leads, average looking males in general).

20 years ago it was completely normal to have a jon lovitz type starring in a movie banging a hot girl and even some of the action heros were by today's standards average built at best. A billy kristol would have never been given a chance in this environment, his roles are given to much better looking men. Back then, a men's career was the most important attribute and with the pressure on women to become wives and mothers, men didn't have to spend 3 hours at the gym to attract anna kendrick. With the drastic cultural change mostly due to feminism its acceptable for female characters in film chasing looks, being playettes, being domineering and the casting has changed accordingly. Believe it or not the films and tv shows can't even keep up with the cultural change, they are actually running behind. We all know from a life of gaming that amy schumer characters were rampant in real life well before amy schumer was put on screen. Her comedy/writing has also drastically changed to appeal to a growing SJW base. Listen to any of her standup 6 years ago vs Today.

This is the chicken or the egg question and the answer isn't simple. Yes the media can revolutionize culture but any effort thats not combined by political backing will be futile.

The other thing to note is the business model has changed. Content Aqcuisition(an area i am very experienced in) has become very complex with netflix leading the way but everyone else has followed quickly. How do you quantify content? It used to be simple advertising count, box office sum + video/dvd future sales. Right now the content is being viewed on 100 different platforms and the formulas have gotten incredibly complicated. If you view an NBC show once its live, nielsen will pick it up and report the nightly viewership estimates, but what about the dvr from 20 different platforms(roku-insert vod service here). What happens when a commercial airing live is no longer relevant weeks later on a vod view. How do you account for diminishing value? How do you quantify binge watching 6 months after the first season is over. Now this is where it gets even more complicated and very relevant to us, you now have to quantify the BUZZ a show/film earns from news outlets. Estimate the views from average unique clicks on portals, social media shares in order to add to your leverage in negotiations with the advertisers. This last part has had a strong impact in the changing content the past 5 years.

There was already a pure BUZZ business model centered around Oscar season which guys like the weinstein brothers where able to use to make money. They could never be a major studio but they remained a mini major for a long time almost entirely due to their clever oscar buzz business model. They had figured out how to lobby the academy individuals that are eligible to vote and almost always secured nominations and victories year after year keeping their mini studio afloat. Their content acquisition was based largely on buzz which means that could save money on marketing. Things changed with Obama's massive SJW industrial complex funding, he has propelled what used to be fringe leftists outlets to the main stream, greatly affecting content acquisition in hollywood. The agents of BUZZ changed from mainstream outlets and lobbying that the Weinsteins used to left wing nut job outlets like the huffpo, buzzfeed, vox + an army of social media warriors raging online after a speech by their 'pop culture' professor in class. So, what used to be an isolated business model is now part of every content acquisition for every studio/network/streamer.


Getting back to today and the future. What happened at the SAG awards, the golden globes and what is sure to happen at the Oscars and virtually at every award show for the next couple of years is the outcry from the 'winners' of cultural change begging the people that cut them their check not to change the type of content they acquire. Trump's candidacy has already had an effect on the type of pilots that are getting picked up, especially sitcoms. CBS was well ahead of the game and saw the change coming well before trump's election. They picked up 100% strong male leads for every single one of their comedies for the 2016-2017 season. They were attacked from the BUZZ for pushing white male patriarchy but it didn't matter, their shows dominate primetime. There is now word that many agents, publicists and managers are telling some of their actors not to speak up on issues which is actually creating an even more divisive environment cause artists don't like being told what to do.

The fight will continue and get more ugly, more divisive until Trump's policies are clearly seen in content acquisition all across the board. Every executive action, deportation, republican bill or even trump just being trump is another blow at the winners of this cultural change.

[Wutang]

(01-30-2017 07:33 AM)AnonymousBosch Wrote:  

^ I'm largely out-of-the-loop at the moment due to travelling, but, catching up, I can see that the left have reached the mutation I was predicting back in late 2014. This was when I wrote about them being deliberately-infantilised to keep their morality in a non-adult, binary Kohlberg Stage 3 mindset: there is only black and white, no complexity.

I also started floating a theory of their existing a Degenerate Triad: their thinking is irrational, emotional and symbolic. Back then, I don't think the Forum really-grasped the inevitability of what they were marching towards, which is why I've been saying they're a realistic threat that people shouldn't be complacent about.

What I said over two years ago, has now come to pass, exactly as I expected it to:

Quote:

SJW's are black and white thinkers - you are either with them or against them, and also believe the ends justify the means, (and the evidence of that is historical document, shown to happen again and again whenever the irrational / emotional / symbolic triad starts mutating into fascist thinking).

I've seen plenty of tweets over the last week of Progressives saying they're 'willing to die for the cause', mainly because they have an unhealthy relationship with works of juvenile fantasy and don't realise that, in reality, the plucky heroes aren't protected by plot armour.



These stupid kiddy movies, superhero movies and toxic television shows function as their reliable Safe Spaces, where harsh reality can't intrude. They have deeply-unhealthy relationships with these shows and characters, as many creators have discovered if they do something that pisses them off.


What if, one by one, their rebellious fantasy heroes are snuffed out like candles? Imagine the fuss if the Harry Potter girl, or the Star Wars girl, or that privileged Hunger Games twat just, once again, vanish.

Something I've harped on a lot in this forum is how a lot of geek fandoms are overflowing with SJW types. I've literally seen a female former acquaintance post quotes from Harry Potter as a way to make a point about how racism is evil. A guy I know from back in high school who is heavily involved in geek fandom to the point that he actually has a website where he puts up workouts that are modeled after what characters like Goku from Dragonball Z or Captain America would do talked about how he is going to "fight fascism" after Trumps election thinking he was going to be able to live out his adolescent super hero fantasies.

I know we like to blame universities for turning people into SJW zombies but in my opinion the most effective weapon of the left is entertainment. The first example would be entertainers such as Stephen Colbert and Jon Stewart that explicitly deal with politics but even more effective are people who create the fiction the public consumes whether it the form of video games, Hollywood movies, TV shows, or novels. The material that tends to be the biggest promoter of SJW values are those that can grouped into geek material ie. sci-fi, fantasy, superheroes and the like. A lot of these type of stories promote the simplistic good vs evil mentality that you speak about in your post. Super heroes are always the good guys in the end even if they do end up performing some evil deeds along the way or have other flaws and super villains are always evil no matter what. There's absolutely no question about who you should be cheering for and who you should be rooting against. Good guys always wear white and bad guys always wear black. These super villains end up becoming not just mere evil human beings but become potent SYMBOLS of evil. They no longer are just people who do evil deeds but become actually an instantiation of the platonic form of Evil. This is where the 'symbolism' you were speaking of comes into play.

I don't think it is a coincidence that the mainstreaming of SJW culture has conceded with the mainstreaming of geek culture. Just look at Tumblr, not only is popular platform for geek fandoms to share material related to whatever TV show, video game, or anime they enjoy it's also a cesspool of the most extreme forms of SJWism in it's various forms whether it be militant feminism or conjuring up new genders. I've seen the transformation myself in a lot of young geek girls: at first they started out completely apolitical - they are just merely fangirls in Kpop, anime, comics, or whatever their poison of choice is. Then slowly they get exposed to more and more SJW ideals since SJWism so closely linked to with geek culture at this point and eventually they end up declaring themselves as trans-bisexual non-binary snowflakes despite showing zero signs of having those traits previously.